And the struggles blue faces has everything to do with the strength of answers. Dealing with a bunch of X/1s is easy. Dealing with spell-based combo is easy. Dealing with the Graveyard is easy. Dealing with problematic lands is easy(ish). Dealing with ramp decks trying to resolve a payoff card is easy. But dealing with ALL THOSE TOGETHER, in addition to a deck like Bant Eldrazi, which plays robust creatures that can be uncounterable, are difficult to remove, and attack hard very early in the game, is almost impossible to do with any Uxx-based 75 cards. Jund has been doing well because, in addition to the better generalized disruption cards, it packs more than a dozen extremely high value threats at 2 and 3 mana. For Uxx to do well at this, it either needs a massive overhaul of answers (which is probably not happening any time soon, as per MaRo's comments about blue reactive cards), or it needs robust and reliable threats/win conditions (like Deceiver Exarch/Splinter Twin).
Until that happens, it will still be the best strategy to just do the fastest and most degenerate thing you can think of.
^^ This x1000. There are too many angles right now (I wonder if Dredge was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back) for reactive decks to answer them all.
I think it's hardly fair to say that Infect merely existing means that the Modern meta is too linear. It's one more piece of the pile of aggressive linear decks, but it in and of itself is not an indicator of the format's linearity, or else we'd have to claim that Legacy is overrun by linear decks as well since Infect is a fairly popular deck there.
Infect is much more resilient than people realize, even against interactive decks. The Twin v Infect matchup was generally favored for Infect and the Abzan matchup used to be pretty good (not sure if that's changed recently or not). It's hard to just say that interactive decks universally defeat Infect.
It's not just existing; it is flourishing. I won't make any remarks regarding Legacy, since I don't play that format. I just know that I don't think Modern is in a good place right now.
The Abzan matchup is actually worse than Jund imo, for what it's worth. Same core of discard/pressure/Lili, but they have Lingering Souls to block Inkmoth Nexus and Path to Exile beats pump spells that Bolt does not.
Ok, so lets look at the combined scg and gp results since the eldrazi ban
5 gps-
5 jund
1 infect
7 opens-
7 infect
6 jund
So, looking at these combined, we have a total of 11 jund and 7 infect.
Please go back and look at the images I uploaded .
Your images not only nearly mirrored these numbers, but took into account wmcq's and other small events that are often trounced by random, heavily-meta influenced decks, so im not sure what that is supposed to tell me?
No changes was the right call for now. I look forward to seeing ktkenshinx's analysis of Preordain in the meta. For many years, I dared not say anything about the card because I did not want to get hyped up, but seeing others mention it now has me loudly calling out for its unban.
Can somebody explain in kid terms how Jace the Mind Sculptor leads to an even more uninteractive meta? I've read some explanations, but didn't quite get it. Thanks.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
SCG modern open placement -- clearly the benchmark for modern success. I'm not trying to be overly flip but if you look at the decks that place in SCG opens it tells the entire story of why it's ridiculous to look exclusively at those as a metric.
First off, we don't know what percentage of the field is specifically in the inbred field that is SCG opens. You'd need to do that first.
Secondly, the meta is as I said so ridiculous and inbred I would really hesitate to draw any conclusions based on it.
SCG Opens are inbred? What are you smoking? These events are open to the public and each one gets literally hundreds of players from all over the country; it's not like the pro tour where it's a small, exclusive group of people, many of whom build and playtest with each other. Also, SCG releases day 2 meta statistics, so it should be easy to see if there's a difference between them and say MTGO.
The truth of SCG Opens is actually somewhere between what you and Pokken are saying. They're not "inbred" like PTs and Worlds are. That much seems obvious. But they're basically just a regionals tournament plus a group of a specific 20 people or so who go to them wherever they are in the hopes of making the Player's Championship. So the metas are actually fairly predictable. If you know what those 20 players gravitate toward, which you do, then you just need to figure out the local scene.
Despite going to a 2-day format and 15 rounds plus top 8, the competition level at SCG Opens are still closer to PPTQs than they are to GPs. GPs are what you describe - hundreds of people traveling over the world to get there.
No changes was the right call for now. I look forward to seeing ktkenshinx's analysis of Preordain in the meta. For many years, I dared not say anything about the card because I did not want to get hyped up, but seeing others mention it now has me loudly calling out for its unban.
Can somebody explain in kid terms how Jace the Mind Sculptor leads to an even more uninteractive meta? I've read some explanations, but didn't quite get it. Thanks.
The theory goes: JTMS does little against aggro decks, does a lot against slower "fair" decks. The best way to beat JTMS is to win before he hits the table, encouraging people to race.
No changes was the right call for now. I look forward to seeing ktkenshinx's analysis of Preordain in the meta. For many years, I dared not say anything about the card because I did not want to get hyped up, but seeing others mention it now has me loudly calling out for its unban.
Can somebody explain in kid terms how Jace the Mind Sculptor leads to an even more uninteractive meta? I've read some explanations, but didn't quite get it. Thanks.
Short answer, it doesnt
Long answer, jace doesnt help the infect/affinity/grishoalbrand/tron/etc matchup, but improves the jund/abzan/U mirror, so other fair decks get a new unwinnable matchup which could theoretically encourage peoplr to try to win before jace even hits the table
Ok, so lets look at the combined scg and gp results since the eldrazi ban
5 gps-
5 jund
1 infect
7 opens-
7 infect
6 jund
So, looking at these combined, we have a total of 11 jund and 7 infect.
Please go back and look at the images I uploaded .
Your images not only nearly mirrored these numbers, but took into account wmcq's and other small events that are often trounced by random, heavily-meta influenced decks, so im not sure what that is supposed to tell me?
You ignored the WMCQs and other events in favor of cherry-picking the Grand Prix results to make it look as though Jund was doing better than it actually is. WMCQs are not "trounced by random, heavily-meta influenced decks".
Ok, so lets look at the combined scg and gp results since the eldrazi ban
5 gps-
5 jund
1 infect
7 opens-
7 infect
6 jund
So, looking at these combined, we have a total of 11 jund and 7 infect.
Please go back and look at the images I uploaded .
Your images not only nearly mirrored these numbers, but took into account wmcq's and other small events that are often trounced by random, heavily-meta influenced decks, so im not sure what that is supposed to tell me?
You ignored the WMCQs and other events in favor of cherry-picking the Grand Prix results to make it look as though Jund was doing better than it actually is. WMCQs are not "trounced by random, heavily-meta influenced decks".
I did not cherry pick, i included every single one since the eldrazi ban. I also included every scg open. Besides this, the numbers you provided nearly mirrored the numbers from gps and opens, so arguing this point is just avoiding my closing statememt, that infect breaks no rules of the format and does not tick any numbers that have been shown in previous bans.
So, unless you have some evidence that hasnt been brought in here a million times over, we must conclude that infect was not banned simply because it didnt meet any of the ban criteria for the format. Wizards certainly hasnt shown any hesitation to ban offenders in the past, so if magically infect did cross their drawn lines, why didnt they hit it?
No changes to the banlist was necessary to retain format confidence. Depending on who you talk to, I believe if you are looking for a format that is affordable eternal then no changes is probably the best outcome to happen. If you are looking to make Modern a serious competitive format for GPs, I believe quite a few bannings need to occur to make Modern a legitimate competitive format. It's clear WOTC is trying to just preserve the format for the people and not catering to pros complaining.
No changes was the right call for now. I look forward to seeing ktkenshinx's analysis of Preordain in the meta. For many years, I dared not say anything about the card because I did not want to get hyped up, but seeing others mention it now has me loudly calling out for its unban.
Can somebody explain in kid terms how Jace the Mind Sculptor leads to an even more uninteractive meta? I've read some explanations, but didn't quite get it. Thanks.
The theory goes: JTMS does little against aggro decks, does a lot against slower "fair" decks. The best way to beat JTMS is to win before he hits the table, encouraging people to race.
I hope this is not what amazing 4 mana Planeswalkers have devolved into. Nahiri?
Besides, I wouldn't blame Jace, the Mind Sculptor if the format stayed super linear and quick.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
No changes was the right call for now. I look forward to seeing ktkenshinx's analysis of Preordain in the meta. For many years, I dared not say anything about the card because I did not want to get hyped up, but seeing others mention it now has me loudly calling out for its unban.
Can somebody explain in kid terms how Jace the Mind Sculptor leads to an even more uninteractive meta? I've read some explanations, but didn't quite get it. Thanks.
The theory goes: JTMS does little against aggro decks, does a lot against slower "fair" decks. The best way to beat JTMS is to win before he hits the table, encouraging people to race.
I hope this is not what amazing 4 mana Planeswalkers have devolved into. Nahiri?
Besides, I wouldn't blame Jace, the Mind Sculptor if the format stayed super linear and quick.
Remember, this is purely anecdotal evidence that proves nothing in reality. Testing with the card will show a more true picture, unbanning it is the only way to really know what happens. This is all pure theory. I personally do agree that he doesnt solve any of blues problems, even though i do think he is a safe unban
No changes was the right call for now. I look forward to seeing ktkenshinx's analysis of Preordain in the meta. For many years, I dared not say anything about the card because I did not want to get hyped up, but seeing others mention it now has me loudly calling out for its unban.
Can somebody explain in kid terms how Jace the Mind Sculptor leads to an even more uninteractive meta? I've read some explanations, but didn't quite get it. Thanks.
The theory goes: JTMS does little against aggro decks, does a lot against slower "fair" decks. The best way to beat JTMS is to win before he hits the table, encouraging people to race.
I hope this is not what amazing 4 mana Planeswalkers have devolved into. Nahiri?
Besides, I wouldn't blame Jace, the Mind Sculptor if the format stayed super linear and quick.
Remember, this is purely anecdotal evidence that proves nothing in reality. Testing with the card will show a more true picture, unbanning it is the only way to really know what happens. This is all pure theory. I personally do agree that he doesnt solve any of blues problems, even though i do think he is a safe unban
I agree. I always felt like Jace, the Mind Sculptor would never be unbanned in Modern because of its Standard follies and subsequent banning gave people a bad taste in their mouths. Now seeing others mention it again, I am getting hyped up for Blue. I would love to go back to my Blue roots and relearn Control, but as of now and every time since Modern started, I just didn't feel comfortable competitively to play Control.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
No changes was the right call for now. I look forward to seeing ktkenshinx's analysis of Preordain in the meta. For many years, I dared not say anything about the card because I did not want to get hyped up, but seeing others mention it now has me loudly calling out for its unban.
Can somebody explain in kid terms how Jace the Mind Sculptor leads to an even more uninteractive meta? I've read some explanations, but didn't quite get it. Thanks.
The theory goes: JTMS does little against aggro decks, does a lot against slower "fair" decks. The best way to beat JTMS is to win before he hits the table, encouraging people to race.
I hope this is not what amazing 4 mana Planeswalkers have devolved into. Nahiri?
Besides, I wouldn't blame Jace, the Mind Sculptor if the format stayed super linear and quick.
I'm not sure if it is fair to compare Nahiri and JTMS, but I don't necessarily buy the argument that JTMS = more linear either. I do think the card would shine primarily in the midrange / control matches and the same players that complain about linear strategies would still be complaining even with their shiny new toy in modern. I also think that there would be more than a few people who would want to play JTMS and from from a raw numbers standpoint, I don't see linear strategies going up in this scenario.
Bottom line: I don't really have a strong opinion on JTMS. I don't think it is the answer people are looking for, but it would certainly push Ux strategies in general.
I did not cherry pick, i included every single one since the eldrazi ban. I also included every scg open. Besides this, the numbers you provided nearly mirrored the numbers from gps and opens, so arguing this point is just avoiding my closing statememt, that infect breaks no rules of the format and does not tick any numbers that have been shown in previous bans.
So, unless you have some evidence that hasnt been brought in here a million times over, we must conclude that infect was not banned simply because it didnt meet any of the ban criteria for the format. Wizards certainly hasnt shown any hesitation to ban offenders in the past, so if magically infect did cross their drawn lines, why didnt they hit it?
What is your point actually? Because I think we re done listening to somebody that is trying to prove the numbers wrong. Bfrie gave you some numbers that prove that:
1) Infect is not winning too much
2) Infect does not break the turn 4 rule
3) Infect does not hold a big metashare.
On top of that, bfrie is just stating that PT's come first, then GP's, then we could maybe take a look at SCG's/WMCQ's/etc, but those are really not such important as PT's/GP's.
So, your point, save your accusations is what? You are basically trying to convince us that white(real numbers of bfrie) is black. You just want some unbans because the format is too linear in its nature? And if you want some of them, why go for an Infect ban crusade?
Please save your "I did not accuse Infect, I only have to say I want unbans because the format is too linear". Cut to the point and don't try to go Nietzsche on us.
Okay, we'll try this again. Not including the WMCQ numbers is disingenuous. Those are very real tournaments, and for most of the players here, are probably more relevant than the inbred Pro Tour numbers. Not including them paints an incomplete picture of a very simple idea that I am trying to get across: Jund is underperforming. Even if you want to ignore the WMCQ numbers, it still underperforms relative to Infect (1.57 times the number of performing pilots, relative to a prevalence multiplier of 1.73 per Modernnexus, and I'd bet money that those metagame shares are slanted even more towards Jund in GP and Pro Tour environments.)
Understand that I'm not saying Infect is the problem that is plaguing Modern and needs something to be banned from it (merely that I was anticipating a ban). Infect's success is a symptom of the sickness plaguing the format - the linear nature of the metagame.
This is not about raising a witch hunt against Infect. Get that into your head. I'm using Infect as an indicator of how unhealthy the format is (because the deck traditionally does not do well when everyone is interacting with each other). Banning something out of Infect will not make Jund better against Affinity, or Burn, or Breach, or Eldrazi, or...
Very simply: Jund bad. Linear good. WotC, Please help.
P.S. Feel free to ignore me and others like me. It won't stop us from raising concerns over format health until it reaches a state that we find agreeable.
P.S. Feel free to ignore me and others like me. It won't stop us from raising concerns over format health until it reaches a state that we find agreeable.
I think that the only way something drastic will happen is if attendance goes down. That's what it took for Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic to be banned during Standard. It's what happened during Treasure Cruise/Pod and Eye of Ugin Eldrazi. Popularity is not always a sign of format health, but it is something that will prevent large changes that could potentially hurt that popularity.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I did not cherry pick, i included every single one since the eldrazi ban. I also included every scg open. Besides this, the numbers you provided nearly mirrored the numbers from gps and opens, so arguing this point is just avoiding my closing statememt, that infect breaks no rules of the format and does not tick any numbers that have been shown in previous bans.
So, unless you have some evidence that hasnt been brought in here a million times over, we must conclude that infect was not banned simply because it didnt meet any of the ban criteria for the format. Wizards certainly hasnt shown any hesitation to ban offenders in the past, so if magically infect did cross their drawn lines, why didnt they hit it?
What is your point actually? Because I think we re done listening to somebody that is trying to prove the numbers wrong. Bfrie gave you some numbers that prove that:
1) Infect is not winning too much
2) Infect does not break the turn 4 rule
3) Infect does not hold a big metashare.
On top of that, bfrie is just stating that PT's come first, then GP's, then we could maybe take a look at SCG's/WMCQ's/etc, but those are really not such important as PT's/GP's.
So, your point, save your accusations is what? You are basically trying to convince us that white(real numbers of bfrie) is black. You just want some unbans because the format is too linear in its nature? And if you want some of them, why go for an Infect ban crusade?
Please save your "I did not accuse Infect, I only have to say I want unbans because the format is too linear". Cut to the point and don't try to go Nietzsche on us.
Okay, we'll try this again. Not including the WMCQ numbers is disingenuous. Those are very real tournaments, and for most of the players here, are probably more relevant than the inbred Pro Tour numbers. Not including them paints an incomplete picture of a very simple idea that I am trying to get across: Jund is underperforming. Even if you want to ignore the WMCQ numbers, it still underperforms relative to Infect (1.57 times the number of performing pilots, relative to a prevalence multiplier of 1.73 per Modernnexus, and I'd bet money that those metagame shares are slanted even more towards Jund in GP and Pro Tour environments.)
Understand that I'm not saying Infect is the problem that is plaguing Modern and needs something to be banned from it (merely that I was anticipating a ban). Infect's success is a symptom of the sickness plaguing the format - the linear nature of the metagame.
This is not about raising a witch hunt against Infect. Get that into your head. I'm using Infect as an indicator of how unhealthy the format is (because the deck traditionally does not do well when everyone is interacting with each other). Banning something out of Infect will not make Jund better against Affinity, or Burn, or Breach, or Eldrazi, or...
Very simply: Jund bad. Linear good. WotC, Please help.
P.S. Feel free to ignore me and others like me. It won't stop us from raising concerns over format health until it reaches a state that we find agreeable.
I have made a mistake, this whole time i thought you were the one whining about no become immense ban, but after looking back i realize i was mistaken. Perhaps my arguments will make more sense if you look at them from the angle of against an infect ban?
Anyways, arguing to improve the highest performing and most played deck in the format will fall upon deaf ears. While i agree with the idea that fsir decks do need a boost, putting all of our eggs in the jund basket sounds miserable to me, not only does that mean i would either need to invest 2 grand or just play aggro to be competitive in the format, but this also reduces the diversity we have worked so hard to obtain. Stuff to improve abzan, mardu, and URx are what i would like to see
I have made a mistake, this whole time i thought you were the one whining about no become immense ban, but after looking back i realize i was mistaken. Perhaps my arguments will make more sense if you look at them from the angle of against an infect ban?
Anyways, arguing to improve the highest performing and most played deck in the format will fall upon deaf ears. While i agree with the idea that fsir decks do need a boost, putting all of our eggs in the jund basket sounds miserable to me, not only does that mean i would either need to invest 2 grand or just play aggro to be competitive in the format, but this also reduces the diversity we have worked so hard to obtain. Stuff to improve abzan, mardu, and URx are what i would like to see
Lol, it's fine; I was just getting a little frustrated that you kept thinking I was advocating in favor of a Become Immense ban.
I agree that the other fair decks (I still maintain that Jund is not great right now) need some help to at least compete. I was really hoping for a Stoneforge Mystic and/or Preordain unban personally. I know everyone has not-so-fond memories of Caw-Blade, but I'm fairly certain turn 3 Batterskull isn't unbeatable for most of the linear decks in the format right now. Infect laughs at lifegain, Affinity can attack in the air or kill with Inkmoth, Burn plays a ton of Skullcrack effects these days, Breach very easily goes over the top of the germ token, Merfolk won't give you the chance to block with it, Dredge can blow it up, and Zooicide can Dismember the token or simply overpower it. I think it shares the same fate as Bitterblossom, AV, Sword, etc., in that it was banned because of the bad memories people have of it rather than how good it would actually be.
I agree that the other fair decks (I still maintain that Jund is not great right now) need some help to at least compete. I was really hoping for a Stoneforge Mystic and/or Preordain unban personally. I know everyone has not-so-fond memories of Caw-Blade, but I'm fairly certain turn 3 Batterskull isn't unbeatable for most of the linear decks in the format right now. Infect laughs at lifegain, Affinity can attack in the air or kill with Inkmoth, Burn plays a ton of Skullcrack effects these days, Breach very easily goes over the top of the germ token, Merfolk won't give you the chance to block with it, Dredge can blow it up, and Zooicide can Dismember the token or simply overpower it. I think it shares the same fate as Bitterblossom, AV, Sword, etc., in that it was banned because of the bad memories people have of it rather than how good it would actually be.
100% agree with you, and this is what my testing with the card has shown as well. My friend that I do most of my testing with has a very keen sense of what is fine and what is overpowered. After our games I always ask him how he felt about the cards we're testing. For instance, he hates Blood Moon and thinks the card is just dumb. He's probably right, although I feel Blood Moon is a necessary evil to have available in the format. When we tested SFM, he thought the card was fine. It was too slow to help much against Dredge, and Jund had plenty of ways to deal with her, so she didn't run away with the midrange matches either. People absolutely overestimate how good SFM would be in Modern. She would be fine, and would probably create a couple new decks, but she wouldn't warp the format, and I don't even think she would become the best thing to do in Modern by a long shot.
My next stop is going to be testing JtMS. I'm planning on testing him in Grixis and Jeskai control builds. What are people's thoughts on how to build these decks? Does he go alongside Nahiri in some number, or does he make a separate Jeskai deck?
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
I agree that the other fair decks (I still maintain that Jund is not great right now) need some help to at least compete. I was really hoping for a Stoneforge Mystic and/or Preordain unban personally. I know everyone has not-so-fond memories of Caw-Blade, but I'm fairly certain turn 3 Batterskull isn't unbeatable for most of the linear decks in the format right now. Infect laughs at lifegain, Affinity can attack in the air or kill with Inkmoth, Burn plays a ton of Skullcrack effects these days, Breach very easily goes over the top of the germ token, Merfolk won't give you the chance to block with it, Dredge can blow it up, and Zooicide can Dismember the token or simply overpower it. I think it shares the same fate as Bitterblossom, AV, Sword, etc., in that it was banned because of the bad memories people have of it rather than how good it would actually be.
100% agree with you, and this is what my testing with the card has shown as well. My friend that I do most of my testing with has a very keen sense of what is fine and what is overpowered. After our games I always ask him how he felt about the cards we're testing. For instance, he hates Blood Moon and thinks the card is just dumb. He's probably right, although I feel Blood Moon is a necessary evil to have available in the format. When we tested SFM, he thought the card was fine. It was too slow to help much against Dredge, and Jund had plenty of ways to deal with her, so she didn't run away with the midrange matches either. People absolutely overestimate how good SFM would be in Modern. She would be fine, and would probably create a couple new decks, but she wouldn't warp the format, and I don't even think she would become the best thing to do in Modern by a long shot.
My next stop is going to be testing JtMS. I'm planning on testing him in Grixis and Jeskai control builds. What are people's thoughts on how to build these decks? Does he go alongside Nahiri in some number, or does he make a separate Jeskai deck?
he's never been in modern, you'll have to try both
My problem with Jace is that you can just pack counter magic, removal and Jaces to win. It is like a creature that dodges almost all removal and doesn't require combat to kill your opponent. I know that Liliana of the Veil is almost just as pain in the butt but at least you need to play win conditions in your deck with her. If Decay would hit Jace then it would be okay I guess. The other problem is the "why Twin got banned" argument: Jace is soft locking win condition alone and when he sticks you don't need anything else but just protect him from removal. Also when your matchup is unfavored you could just sideboard your deck into a Jace control just like Twin transformed into a Moon Keranos control.
I think Wizards considers Jace a bit too pushed card for modern since it literally does everything and is very hard to deal with. Modern doesn't need this kind of ultimate weapons but more early game distraction and more fast universal answers. Innocent Blood would be a good start but this ain't a thread for card reprint discussion anyway.
Jace could be fine, I have tested with and against it a bit and at least in fair strategies, who ever slams Jace first wins almost for sure.
The other problem is the "why Twin got banned" argument: Jace is soft locking win condition alone and when he sticks you don't need anything else but just protect him from removal. Also when your matchup is unfavored you could just sideboard your deck into a Jace control just like Twin transformed into a Moon Keranos control.
Nahiri does the same exact thing, though, and she wins the game 2 turns after you play her instead of the 6 turns it takes Jace. And their +2s are pretty similar effects. Nahiri maybe improves your hand, while Jace maybe worsens your opponent's draws. I'm not saying that Nahiri is better than Jace overall, but she is better for the argument that you made against Jace in the format.
And I don't think I understand your last sentence here. I'm assuming Jace is being played in a blue midrange or control shell, so how are you sideboarding into a Jace control deck? That's kinda what your maindeck already is.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Nahiri does the same exact thing, though, and she wins the game 2 turns after you play her instead of the 6 turns it takes Jace. And their +2s are pretty similar effects. Nahiri maybe improves your hand, while Jace maybe worsens your opponent's draws. I'm not saying that Nahiri is better than Jace overall, but she is better for the argument that you made against Jace in the format.
And I don't think I understand your last sentence here. I'm assuming Jace is being played in a blue midrange or control shell, so how are you sideboarding into a Jace control deck? That's kinda what your maindeck already is.
Nahiri is a good example of a planeswalker that is good for modern. Nahiri destroys threats after they have attacked and Jace does bounces them before they can attack, Jace enters the empty battlefield with five counters which means five unsummons. Jace also makes it easier for you to protect him since you can see what your opponent is going to draw.
Nahiri is a lot more color hungry than Jace and she needs other cards to win the game (not many but still).
My last sentence was and example for a deck like Scapeshift - you face unfavored matchup where Jace could be better than Scapeshift, just leave few combo pieces in and now your opponent have to worry and prepare to two ways of losing the game.
All blue non-all in combo decks would play Jace because the card is so good.
Jace is the last thing Modern needs unless Wizard want to kill non blue fair decks. He completely destroys them while does next to nothing against linear decks which means these which are already very popular right now won't suffer from this but non blue fair decks which aren't doing great at the moment will. I don't think this solves anything but only makes fair decks' problem in Modern even bigger.
Hmmm, very strange. Introducing Splinter Twin would invoke quite the opposite direction...
Please go back and look at the images I uploaded.
^^ This x1000. There are too many angles right now (I wonder if Dredge was the straw that broke the proverbial camel's back) for reactive decks to answer them all.
What are "bad decks" for 800, Alex?
It's not just existing; it is flourishing. I won't make any remarks regarding Legacy, since I don't play that format. I just know that I don't think Modern is in a good place right now.
The Abzan matchup is actually worse than Jund imo, for what it's worth. Same core of discard/pressure/Lili, but they have Lingering Souls to block Inkmoth Nexus and Path to Exile beats pump spells that Bolt does not.
Your images not only nearly mirrored these numbers, but took into account wmcq's and other small events that are often trounced by random, heavily-meta influenced decks, so im not sure what that is supposed to tell me?
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Can somebody explain in kid terms how Jace the Mind Sculptor leads to an even more uninteractive meta? I've read some explanations, but didn't quite get it. Thanks.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Despite going to a 2-day format and 15 rounds plus top 8, the competition level at SCG Opens are still closer to PPTQs than they are to GPs. GPs are what you describe - hundreds of people traveling over the world to get there.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
The theory goes: JTMS does little against aggro decks, does a lot against slower "fair" decks. The best way to beat JTMS is to win before he hits the table, encouraging people to race.
Short answer, it doesnt
Long answer, jace doesnt help the infect/affinity/grishoalbrand/tron/etc matchup, but improves the jund/abzan/U mirror, so other fair decks get a new unwinnable matchup which could theoretically encourage peoplr to try to win before jace even hits the table
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
You ignored the WMCQs and other events in favor of cherry-picking the Grand Prix results to make it look as though Jund was doing better than it actually is. WMCQs are not "trounced by random, heavily-meta influenced decks".
I did not cherry pick, i included every single one since the eldrazi ban. I also included every scg open. Besides this, the numbers you provided nearly mirrored the numbers from gps and opens, so arguing this point is just avoiding my closing statememt, that infect breaks no rules of the format and does not tick any numbers that have been shown in previous bans.
So, unless you have some evidence that hasnt been brought in here a million times over, we must conclude that infect was not banned simply because it didnt meet any of the ban criteria for the format. Wizards certainly hasnt shown any hesitation to ban offenders in the past, so if magically infect did cross their drawn lines, why didnt they hit it?
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I hope this is not what amazing 4 mana Planeswalkers have devolved into. Nahiri?
Besides, I wouldn't blame Jace, the Mind Sculptor if the format stayed super linear and quick.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Remember, this is purely anecdotal evidence that proves nothing in reality. Testing with the card will show a more true picture, unbanning it is the only way to really know what happens. This is all pure theory. I personally do agree that he doesnt solve any of blues problems, even though i do think he is a safe unban
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I agree. I always felt like Jace, the Mind Sculptor would never be unbanned in Modern because of its Standard follies and subsequent banning gave people a bad taste in their mouths. Now seeing others mention it again, I am getting hyped up for Blue. I would love to go back to my Blue roots and relearn Control, but as of now and every time since Modern started, I just didn't feel comfortable competitively to play Control.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I'm not sure if it is fair to compare Nahiri and JTMS, but I don't necessarily buy the argument that JTMS = more linear either. I do think the card would shine primarily in the midrange / control matches and the same players that complain about linear strategies would still be complaining even with their shiny new toy in modern. I also think that there would be more than a few people who would want to play JTMS and from from a raw numbers standpoint, I don't see linear strategies going up in this scenario.
Bottom line: I don't really have a strong opinion on JTMS. I don't think it is the answer people are looking for, but it would certainly push Ux strategies in general.
Okay, we'll try this again. Not including the WMCQ numbers is disingenuous. Those are very real tournaments, and for most of the players here, are probably more relevant than the inbred Pro Tour numbers. Not including them paints an incomplete picture of a very simple idea that I am trying to get across: Jund is underperforming. Even if you want to ignore the WMCQ numbers, it still underperforms relative to Infect (1.57 times the number of performing pilots, relative to a prevalence multiplier of 1.73 per Modernnexus, and I'd bet money that those metagame shares are slanted even more towards Jund in GP and Pro Tour environments.)
This is not about raising a witch hunt against Infect. Get that into your head. I'm using Infect as an indicator of how unhealthy the format is (because the deck traditionally does not do well when everyone is interacting with each other). Banning something out of Infect will not make Jund better against Affinity, or Burn, or Breach, or Eldrazi, or...
Very simply: Jund bad. Linear good. WotC, Please help.
Alternatively, read this article: http://modernnexus.com/midrange-languishes-scg-orlando/
P.S. Feel free to ignore me and others like me. It won't stop us from raising concerns over format health until it reaches a state that we find agreeable.
You got to understand, for every article like that one, there is also one like this -
http://modernnexus.com/addressing-modern-critics/
I think that the only way something drastic will happen is if attendance goes down. That's what it took for Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic to be banned during Standard. It's what happened during Treasure Cruise/Pod and Eye of Ugin Eldrazi. Popularity is not always a sign of format health, but it is something that will prevent large changes that could potentially hurt that popularity.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I have made a mistake, this whole time i thought you were the one whining about no become immense ban, but after looking back i realize i was mistaken. Perhaps my arguments will make more sense if you look at them from the angle of against an infect ban?
Anyways, arguing to improve the highest performing and most played deck in the format will fall upon deaf ears. While i agree with the idea that fsir decks do need a boost, putting all of our eggs in the jund basket sounds miserable to me, not only does that mean i would either need to invest 2 grand or just play aggro to be competitive in the format, but this also reduces the diversity we have worked so hard to obtain. Stuff to improve abzan, mardu, and URx are what i would like to see
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Lol, it's fine; I was just getting a little frustrated that you kept thinking I was advocating in favor of a Become Immense ban.
I agree that the other fair decks (I still maintain that Jund is not great right now) need some help to at least compete. I was really hoping for a Stoneforge Mystic and/or Preordain unban personally. I know everyone has not-so-fond memories of Caw-Blade, but I'm fairly certain turn 3 Batterskull isn't unbeatable for most of the linear decks in the format right now. Infect laughs at lifegain, Affinity can attack in the air or kill with Inkmoth, Burn plays a ton of Skullcrack effects these days, Breach very easily goes over the top of the germ token, Merfolk won't give you the chance to block with it, Dredge can blow it up, and Zooicide can Dismember the token or simply overpower it. I think it shares the same fate as Bitterblossom, AV, Sword, etc., in that it was banned because of the bad memories people have of it rather than how good it would actually be.
Preordain please, for real. Serum Visions just isn't cutting it right now.
100% agree with you, and this is what my testing with the card has shown as well. My friend that I do most of my testing with has a very keen sense of what is fine and what is overpowered. After our games I always ask him how he felt about the cards we're testing. For instance, he hates Blood Moon and thinks the card is just dumb. He's probably right, although I feel Blood Moon is a necessary evil to have available in the format. When we tested SFM, he thought the card was fine. It was too slow to help much against Dredge, and Jund had plenty of ways to deal with her, so she didn't run away with the midrange matches either. People absolutely overestimate how good SFM would be in Modern. She would be fine, and would probably create a couple new decks, but she wouldn't warp the format, and I don't even think she would become the best thing to do in Modern by a long shot.
My next stop is going to be testing JtMS. I'm planning on testing him in Grixis and Jeskai control builds. What are people's thoughts on how to build these decks? Does he go alongside Nahiri in some number, or does he make a separate Jeskai deck?
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
he's never been in modern, you'll have to try both
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I think Wizards considers Jace a bit too pushed card for modern since it literally does everything and is very hard to deal with. Modern doesn't need this kind of ultimate weapons but more early game distraction and more fast universal answers. Innocent Blood would be a good start but this ain't a thread for card reprint discussion anyway.
Jace could be fine, I have tested with and against it a bit and at least in fair strategies, who ever slams Jace first wins almost for sure.
Modern
WUBRG
Nahiri does the same exact thing, though, and she wins the game 2 turns after you play her instead of the 6 turns it takes Jace. And their +2s are pretty similar effects. Nahiri maybe improves your hand, while Jace maybe worsens your opponent's draws. I'm not saying that Nahiri is better than Jace overall, but she is better for the argument that you made against Jace in the format.
And I don't think I understand your last sentence here. I'm assuming Jace is being played in a blue midrange or control shell, so how are you sideboarding into a Jace control deck? That's kinda what your maindeck already is.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
That is, if the current problem is still "Blue control doesn't have enough answers for multi-axis aggro hell".
Nahiri is a good example of a planeswalker that is good for modern. Nahiri destroys threats after they have attacked and Jace does bounces them before they can attack, Jace enters the empty battlefield with five counters which means five unsummons. Jace also makes it easier for you to protect him since you can see what your opponent is going to draw.
Nahiri is a lot more color hungry than Jace and she needs other cards to win the game (not many but still).
My last sentence was and example for a deck like Scapeshift - you face unfavored matchup where Jace could be better than Scapeshift, just leave few combo pieces in and now your opponent have to worry and prepare to two ways of losing the game.
All blue non-all in combo decks would play Jace because the card is so good.
Modern
WUBRG
Hmmm, very strange. Introducing Splinter Twin would invoke quite the opposite direction...
DECKS:
UB Faeries [Midrange/Tempo]
RWUGB Affinity[Aggro]
FAERIES TOO STRONK!!!1111
- Fae Prophecy, 201
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