MTG Salvation

I think people vastly overestimate Jace's effectiveness in a format dominated by creature interaction and linear strategies. When you are staring down lethal on board dropping Jace isn't going to help much.

From a business perspective I think Wizards may have a golden opportunity to rake in mad profit. They could easily unban Jace during the 2nd Kaladesh set and announce a reprint in MM2017. I know a lot of fence sitters who would like to try Modern but feel Wizards is taking a collected dump on blue lately and unbanning Jace may persuade them.

I know infect has been tossed around on here quite a bit, but we just got results from 5 different Modern events featuring their top 8 lists. Only 1 infect list managed to reach 3rd place at one of them. Is that a sign the deck is less busted as predicted or was there just not enough players running Infect to break in?

Quote from purklefluff »

So it looks like Maro's "modern banned cards head to head" on twitter is finally over. Jace the Mindsculptor mat have won, but I'm not sure yet.

What do you guys reckon, jace unban in the future? I'm struggling to see how it would actually be a bad unban. Twin isn't around any more. It's a slow 4-mana durdly card. Obviously great (no doubts there) but too busted for modern? Nahhh

If treasure cruise had won, would we be talking about a Treasure Cruise unban? No, I don't think we can take that as evidence of anything.

I don't think anything will change on monday, but the more I think about it, the more I find that I'd like a Mutagenic Growth ban.
That would slow down Infect and Death's Shadow (and make a little splash damage on Gruul Zoo) withouth killing any of the decks.

Quote from FoodChainGoblins »

If anything, Tier 3 Storm is more of a concern than Goryo's Vengeance. Their Preordain is in a smaller deck (Git Probe) and is played more often (Pyromancer Ascension/Past in Flames). I know that I would try Storm for a bit if Preordain was unbanned. Do I think it would be Tier 1? No, not really, maybe Tier 2 at best...

I disagree.

While Preordain would certainly slot into UR Storm, I'm confident that it would do nothing to increase Storm's win rate or tier ranking.

Storm is already the most consistent combo deck in Modern. I'll explain why, but first think about what that means. If Storm is the #1 most consistent combo deck in the format but it's wallowing in Tier 3 or lower, what does that mean? It means it lacks the raw power. The rituals that were banned, Seething Song and Rite of Flame, did MUCH more to kill the deck than the cantrips. Those are the cards that actually cut the win turn from 2 or 3 to 3 or 4.

Here's Jon Finkel's Storm list, which is still the default 75 for the deck, though I think some pack more Defense Grids in certain metas.



Other than lands and Grapeshots, there are only 2 cards in the deck that are less than a full playset. Those are Desperate Ravings, the worst filtering spell but one with built-in flashback, and Past in Flames, which you only need 1-of and also has built-in flashback. Every other card is a 4-of, which already provides as much consistency as an aggro or burn deck packing nothing but 4-ofs. But it also boasts 23 cantrips/filters. That's an enormous amount of consistency.

Preordain would likely replace the 3 Desperate Ravings and 1 Sleight of Hand. Probe is too valuable as a "free" spell and to see what your opponent has in hand, and Thought Scour dumping cards into the yard is important with Ascension and Past in Flames. That said, the built-in flashback on Ravings and the fact that the deck naturally produces red more easily than it produces blue means cutting Ravings isn't without some sort of a draw back. So it's possible it just straight up swaps for the 4 Sleight of Hands instead.

So yes, Preordain is obviously an upgrade over some of the other spells in the deck. But with the inherent consistency of a deck with so many full playsets along with the deck running 23 cards that cantrip or filter, the deck is already the most consistent combo deck in the format. With something this immensely consistent any additions to consistency has diminishing returns. Preordain would be a boost to consistency but no boost in consistency, not even Brainstorm, would give the deck the raw power it's lacked since the 2 rituals were banned.

A lot of folks have been posting about how the unbanning of Preordain would make Goryo's Vengeance decks good enough to warrant a ban. 1% if the meta share and 50% of the archetype doesn't run blue.
If the different between running Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions is all of a sudden so markedly superior when you can add in Preordain (in addition or instead) to decklists, I don't see how that make it violate anything.

What play line in the Grixis Goryo's Vengeance deck leads to a pre-turn 4 kill out of the deck simply because of pre-ordain?

Black Source - Faithless Looting - SSG - SSG - Goryo's Vengeance - Emrakul, the Aeon's Torn is a line that already exists. It doesn't win the game and it's effect early may not be that good. As turns go by you need fewer SSGs if you have land.

Preordain requires spending mana. As far as combo decks go, you get 1 mana on turn one, 2 on turn three, 3 on turn three (we all know this). SSG is a card that bends this rule. If you watched the Grixis Goryo's deck on stream at the last SCG event you would see it often uses its combo to create significant incremental advantage and then move forward from there.

If the argument here is that the % matchup gain the deck receives from the upgrade it could receive from Preordain is so great that the meta share would jump from 0.5% to something worthy of being Tier 1, you're saying that one upgrade will increase its metashare by 10x. I don't think that's an argument that sounds reasonable.

The argument of the upgrade it would give to Ad Nauseum decks is a bit more realistic, but again the problem comes from these types of decks being able to leverage a mana advantage over other decks (with ramp/artifact mana/SSG). Would the change in its cantrip pool be so great that it would all of a sudden become unstoppable tier one? The other major problem with Ad Nauseum is that if SSG ever gets the axe, the deck is dead.

Preordain in Storm wouldn't be a problem at all. The deck's problems have nothing to do with its consistency. There's just too much hate for it running around in the format because it gets splash damage from other strategies.

Quote from rcwraspy »

Quote from FoodChainGoblins »

If anything, Tier 3 Storm is more of a concern than Goryo's Vengeance. Their Preordain is in a smaller deck (Git Probe) and is played more often (Pyromancer Ascension/Past in Flames). I know that I would try Storm for a bit if Preordain was unbanned. Do I think it would be Tier 1? No, not really, maybe Tier 2 at best...

I disagree.

While Preordain would certainly slot into UR Storm, I'm confident that it would do nothing to increase Storm's win rate or tier ranking.

Storm is already the most consistent combo deck in Modern. I'll explain why, but first think about what that means. If Storm is the #1 most consistent combo deck in the format but it's wallowing in Tier 3 or lower, what does that mean? It means it lacks the raw power. The rituals that were banned, Seething Song and Rite of Flame, did MUCH more to kill the deck than the cantrips. Those are the cards that actually cut the win turn from 2 or 3 to 3 or 4.

Here's Jon Finkel's Storm list, which is still the default 75 for the deck, though I think some pack more Defense Grids in certain metas.

FoodChainGoblins's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Filtering 4 Gitaxian Probe 4 Sleight of Hand 4 Serum Visions 4 Thought Scour 3 Desperate Ravings Dual-Purpose 4 Manamorphose Rituals 4 Pyretic Ritual 4 Desperate Ritual Enablers 4 Pyromancer Ascension 4 Goblin Electromancer 3 Past in Flames	Win-Con 2 Grapeshot Land 4 Scalding Tarn 3 Misty Rainforest 3 Shivan Reef 2 Steam Vents 3 Island 1 Mountain	Sideboard 3 Shatterstorm 3 Blood Moon 3 Empty the Warrens 4 Lightning Bolt 1 Defense Grid 1 Echoing Truth

Other than lands and Grapeshots, there are only 2 cards in the deck that are less than a full playset. Those are Desperate Ravings, the worst filtering spell but one with built-in flashback, and Past in Flames, which you only need 1-of and also has built-in flashback. Every other card is a 4-of, which already provides as much consistency as an aggro or burn deck packing nothing but 4-ofs. But it also boasts 23 cantrips/filters. That's an enormous amount of consistency.

Preordain would likely replace the 3 Desperate Ravings and 1 Sleight of Hand. Probe is too valuable as a "free" spell and to see what your opponent has in hand, and Thought Scour dumping cards into the yard is important with Ascension and Past in Flames. That said, the built-in flashback on Ravings and the fact that the deck naturally produces red more easily than it produces blue means cutting Ravings isn't without some sort of a draw back. So it's possible it just straight up swaps for the 4 Sleight of Hands instead.

So yes, Preordain is obviously an upgrade over some of the other spells in the deck. But with the inherent consistency of a deck with so many full playsets along with the deck running 23 cards that cantrip or filter, the deck is already the most consistent combo deck in the format. With something this immensely consistent any additions to consistency has diminishing returns. Preordain would be a boost to consistency but no boost in consistency, not even Brainstorm, would give the deck the raw power it's lacked since the 2 rituals were banned.

This is a good in depth analysis and I agree. That is the exact 60 that I've used in the past when I ran Storm for 3 months. My SB was nearly the same, card for card. You are right. In this case, Preordain would replace Desperate Ravings, which is almost always pretty mediocre to bad in the deck. I didn't analyze each deck specifically. I just assumed that most Sleight of Hands would become Preordains. Storm IS very consistent. If unimpeded, it can win easily on turns 3, 4, or 5, although I'm not sure that's enough in the current meta. I personally quit Storm a short time after Eidolon of the Great Revel was printed, but I think the problem with Storm is that everyone packs graveyard hate because of Dredge and sometimes the amount of Goblins you get from Empty is not enough to win nowadays.

But I stand by my point on Griselbrand decks. People are acting as if Preordain magically breaks them, which I doubt VERY much so (having ran Grishoalbrand and Grixis previously). The deck is my favorite Modern deck, so I am biased. I can admit that. But Preordain is not going to increase the Infect matchup. It's not going to increase the Affinity matchup. It will decrease variance a bit, which can be scary. But at the current numbers for Griselbrand/Goryo's Vengeance decks in the meta, I don't think Preordain will break them in any way. If anything, we'll have a new Tier 2 deck.

*I know my opinion is very unpopular, but I feel that this list of Boogeymen that turned out not to be SO "Boogeymen" can add Preordain to the end of it.

1. Golgari Grave-Troll - scary, scary Dredge 6
2. Sword of the Meek - remember how many people thought this would break Aggro?
3. Ancestral Vision - card advantage for the worst archetype in Modern history

and then

4. Preordain
5. and I believe Bloodbraid Elf. Despite the fact that Jund is Tier 1, it gets beaten by a 15% metashare Bant Eldrazi and Bloodbraid Elf banned is really an insult to Modern players' intelligence in a format where we face 2 Bant Eldrazi, 2 Infect, and 2 Suicide Zoo in 6 rounds.

Quote from FoodChainGoblins »

5. and I believe Bloodbraid Elf. Despite the fact that Jund is Tier 1, it gets beaten by a 15% metashare Bant Eldrazi and Bloodbraid Elf banned is really an insult to Modern players' intelligence in a format where we face 2 Bant Eldrazi, 2 Infect, and 2 Suicide Zoo in 6 rounds.

Everything else you said seems on point, but I don't understand what you are saying here. Bant Eldrazi is about 6%-7% here and here and here. Where is 15%?

Bloodbraid is a more risky move because jund is already top of tier 1. I don't think it would break anything, personally. But I can see that because of the metagame context (with jund on top), it carries some more risk than other cards that might not go into the top deck.

Quote from wpgstevo »

Quote from FoodChainGoblins »

5. and I believe Bloodbraid Elf. Despite the fact that Jund is Tier 1, it gets beaten by a 15% metashare Bant Eldrazi and Bloodbraid Elf banned is really an insult to Modern players' intelligence in a format where we face 2 Bant Eldrazi, 2 Infect, and 2 Suicide Zoo in 6 rounds.

Everything else you said seems on point, but I don't understand what you are saying here. Bant Eldrazi is about 6%-7% here and here and here. Where is 15%?

Bloodbraid is a more risky move because jund is already top of tier 1. I don't think it would break anything, personally. But I can see that because of the metagame context (with jund on top), it carries some more risk than other cards that might not go into the top deck.

I must have been looking at the recent Grand Prix. Jund probably doesn't need help. Maybe I am basing some cards bannability on the current meta? I don't want to say too much more about Bloodbraid Elf because I am not really an advocate of that card in any way. It is really a card that I truly despise, but I have gotten over it somewhat. I just think that if I'm an Infect player, I would pray that my Jund opponent draws this in multiples and loses 2 turns before he can cast either one. Same with Suicide Zoo or even Breach/Titanshift (insert other super quick deck). The interaction with discard does not always give you until turn 4-5 to cast these spells. (If a Jund player's hand is consistently 2 land, 2 Bloodbraid Elf, 2 Thoughtseize, and 1 Inquisition of Kozilek and they draw into 2 lands by turn 4, and they get good, relevant cascades, then more power to them.)

This is where I go off the deep end. Punishing Fire is a travesty of a card when combined with Grove of the Burnwillows. That card would be okay in the current meta right now. That's somewhat sad.

I guess Jund is doing better than I thought. I will retract all of what I said. I'll try to stay on topic and not throw any more monkey wrenches (personal opinions) in. The only thing I feel should be unbanned is Preordain.

Quote from FoodChainGoblins »

But I stand by my point on Griselbrand decks. People are acting as if Preordain magically breaks them, which I doubt VERY much so (having ran Grishoalbrand and Grixis previously). The deck is my favorite Modern deck, so I am biased. I can admit that. But Preordain is not going to increase the Infect matchup. It's not going to increase the Affinity matchup. It will decrease variance a bit, which can be scary. But at the current numbers for Griselbrand/Goryo's Vengeance decks in the meta, I don't think Preordain will break them in any way. If anything, we'll have a new Tier 2 deck.

Worth memtioning, the fact that you play the deck and that it is your favorite in no way invalidates your opinion on Preordain. Obviously you dont want to see your favorite deck banned, so if you truly thought it would break the deck, while im sure you'd love to see your favorite deck powered up temporarily, you would hate having it taken from you entirely shortly after. Therefore, you sre encouraged to give your honest opinion on the card within the shell, and given your experience with the deck, your opinion holds more weight than most others

Well, Jund seems to have taken a hit online (so far, ~3% leagues after several months between 7% and 9%). This is due to a variety of factors: Abzan Flayer appeared, Bant Eldrazi solidifying, RG Breach going up and UWx control decks making a comeback, among others.

Just saying that if this becomes a trend, and also translates to the paper meta (last SCG Top8 comes to mind), then Jund could eventually go to down the tiers. There's a possibility, as slight as it is, for BBE in Januray.

We know ~11.5%* is top tier (Storm online meta when Song was banned if I am not mistaken) and we know they would unban cards to help non top tier decks, so there's that. Given certain circumstances, it could happen. Also, we can always argue that Modern's power level could handle BBE pretty well. Not that Jund needs help right now though.

Guys, any word on the Infect pre Turn 4 numbers? Right now my limited research says it's ~12%, but more data is needed for sure.

*Edit: I originally wrote ~4.5% (Storm online meta when Song was banned), which is wrong. The 4.5% came from a Modern Nexus article which determined Amulet Bloom broke the T4 rule and it belongs to 2011 Shoal Infect GP/PT Day2 meta. My bad.

Quote from acc95 »

Well, Jund seems to have taken a hit online (so far, ~3% leagues after several months between 7% and 9%). This is due to a variety of factors: Abzan Flayer appeared, Bant Eldrazi solidifying, RG Breach going up and UWx control decks making a comeback, among others.

Just saying that if this becomes a trend, and also translates to the paper meta (last SCG Top8 comes to mind), then Jund could eventually go to down the tiers. There's a possibility, as slight as it is, for BBE in Januray.

We know ~4.5% is top tier (Storm online meta when Song was banned if I am not mistaken) and we know they would unban cards to help non top tier decks, so there's that. Given certain circumstances, it could happen. Also, we can always argue that Modern's power level could handle BBE pretty well. Not that Jund needs help right now though.

Guys, any word on the Infect pre Turn 4 numbers? Right now my limited research says it's ~12%, but more data is needed for sure.

I posted a spreadsheet of my observation of 80 games by pro's. I knoe nothing about statistics, so i cannot go any farther with the data

Quote from bfrie »

Quote from FoodChainGoblins »

But I stand by my point on Griselbrand decks. People are acting as if Preordain magically breaks them, which I doubt VERY much so (having ran Grishoalbrand and Grixis previously). The deck is my favorite Modern deck, so I am biased. I can admit that. But Preordain is not going to increase the Infect matchup. It's not going to increase the Affinity matchup. It will decrease variance a bit, which can be scary. But at the current numbers for Griselbrand/Goryo's Vengeance decks in the meta, I don't think Preordain will break them in any way. If anything, we'll have a new Tier 2 deck.

Worth memtioning, the fact that you play the deck and that it is your favorite in no way invalidates your opinion on Preordain. Obviously you dont want to see your favorite deck banned, so if you truly thought it would break the deck, while im sure you'd love to see your favorite deck powered up temporarily, you would hate having it taken from you entirely shortly after. Therefore, you sre encouraged to give your honest opinion on the card within the shell, and given your experience with the deck, your opinion holds more weight than most others

Thank you. That's how I feel as well. Preordain unbanned would actually prompt me to try the Grixis version again. It is fun playing with new toys and Preordain is a very good card. But I truly believe that it won't break Griselbrand. I'm much more inclined to believe it on that than Ad Nauseam, but maybe that's just my experiences with the decks. When I played Ad Nauseam, it was years ago and there were no Temples. I found that even with all the filtering, it was tough to find Ad Nauseam sometimes. That was my main problem with the deck, personally. Maybe others didn't find this to be so?

Quote from gkourou »

One question: I already feel Collective Brutality will make the deck competitive again and it will push it into the clear tiers. Then there is Cathartic Reunion that should be up for testing at least, right? Then Preordain potentially as well. Is there a chance all of those will make the deck too strong? I am afraid because there is about more than 1 card.

I have to admit that I haven't tested any of these cards yet. The one time that I played Grishoalbrand recently, I forgot to bring my Collective Brutalities. I was pretty upset about that one! Maybe I should try them, but because for the past month after winning a PPTQ, I've only been playing once a week (5-6 rounds at FNM). I haven't been able to play much and I'm currently trying to learn the ins and outs of Amulet Titan. Hopefully I'll have some time to rework on Grishoalbrand as well. I would be curious to hear others' testing with the cards as well (I'm looking at you, Kathal and Battlespawn).

Quote from bfrie »

I posted a spreadsheet of my observation of 80 games by pro's. I knoe nothing about statistics, so i cannot go any farther with the data

Yeah, I saw that. Thanks for posting! Have you gathered more data? The fact that our numbers are pretty close gives me confidence though. Like Sheridan said, most Ns will be small, so we can only gather as much data pints as we can and then we can bootstrap the whole thing and get intervals and whatnot. I guess there's a program for that (izzetmage and Sheridan himself could help here).

Quote from acc95 »

Quote from bfrie »

I posted a spreadsheet of my observation of 80 games by pro's. I knoe nothing about statistics, so i cannot go any farther with the data

Yeah, I saw that. Thanks for posting! Have you gathered more data? The fact that our numbers are pretty close gives me confidence though. Like Sheridan said, most Ns will be small, so we can only gather as much data pints as we can and then we can bootstrap the whole thing and get intervals and whatnot. I guess there's a program for that (izzetmage and Sheridan himself could help here).

None at the moment, ive kind of run out of videos to watch between pt ogw and now i mean, im sure theres more somewhere, but i got to the point where i saw a video with maindeck piracy charm so i startrd questioning the validity of going any further back

Quote from gkourou »

Quote from FoodChainGoblins »

Quote from bfrie »

Quote from FoodChainGoblins »

But I stand by my point on Griselbrand decks. People are acting as if Preordain magically breaks them, which I doubt VERY much so (having ran Grishoalbrand and Grixis previously). The deck is my favorite Modern deck, so I am biased. I can admit that. But Preordain is not going to increase the Infect matchup. It's not going to increase the Affinity matchup. It will decrease variance a bit, which can be scary. But at the current numbers for Griselbrand/Goryo's Vengeance decks in the meta, I don't think Preordain will break them in any way. If anything, we'll have a new Tier 2 deck.

Worth memtioning, the fact that you play the deck and that it is your favorite in no way invalidates your opinion on Preordain. Obviously you dont want to see your favorite deck banned, so if you truly thought it would break the deck, while im sure you'd love to see your favorite deck powered up temporarily, you would hate having it taken from you entirely shortly after. Therefore, you sre encouraged to give your honest opinion on the card within the shell, and given your experience with the deck, your opinion holds more weight than most others

Thank you. That's how I feel as well. Preordain unbanned would actually prompt me to try the Grixis version again. It is fun playing with new toys and Preordain is a very good card. But I truly believe that it won't break Griselbrand. I much more inclined to believe it on that than Ad Nauseam, but maybe that's just my experiences with the decks. When I played Ad Nauseam, it was years ago and there were no Temples. I found that even with all the filtering, it was tough to find Ad Nauseam sometimes. That was my main problem with the deck, personally. Maybe others didn't find this to be so?

Firstly, I want to take the time and just tell to bfrie that he made one of the best comments about your opinion counting on the subject. Of course it does, and it does matter more than most of others(the icing on the cake is we know you are not having a secret agenda of some kind and you are spot on about many of your posts-ok, at least IMO, because i really like your posts).
One question: I already feel Collective Brutality will make the deck competitive again and it will push it into the clear tiers. Then there is Cathartic Reunion that should be up for testing at least, right? Then Preordain potentially as well. Is there a chance all of those will make the deck too strong? I am afraid because there is about more than 1 card.

Slightly off topic, but Collective Brutality has been an amazing edition to the deck (SHOAL) and I'd consider it essential at this point (Hurray synergistic interaction!). I haven't tried testing it yet, but I am highly skeptical of Cathartic Reunion in the build. I already begrudgingly run Tormenting Voice and Cathartic Reunion seems to be an even worse top deck and out right bad against any U based deck. My time playing and testing the grixis version of SHOAL has not impressed me in the slightest, so a preordain for serum vision swap isn't enough IMO. Izzet Charm is almost worth splashing for (plus some sideboard tech), but it took a very noticeable % of my GW%.

On the Grixis Goryo's (Emrakul version), again I don't think Cathartic Reunion has a place, but Preordain most certainly would. The deck is slower and more vulnerable to interaction, so being able to dig would be helpful. That being said, it is very much a T4 deck and preordain wouldn't speed the deck up. I'll look through my notes (I keep track of all my paper games, including what turn I win on), but I've only won on T3 4 or 5 times (out of 100+ games) and I think on T2 once with an absolute ridiculous hand against an elves player (took 2 SSG, 1 Goryo's, 1 Griselbrand, 1 Faithless Looting in my opening 7, then I had to draw a 3rd SSG plus another Goryo's and an Emrakul in my top 14 cards).

So again, Preordain is no doubt an upgrade to existing cantrips which is helpful, but it isn't an enabler and both versions require a density of enablers. If I am spending T1/2 casting preordain, then I am not winning on these turns (which everyone thinks the deck does... always). I know we shouldn't let the current meta dictate how we view potential unbans, but the current strength of aggro strategies makes running a fetch/shock heavy manabase is a further strike against splashing just for preordain...

Quote from gkourou »

So, it seems that we have the final numbers by bfrie. 13% seems to be the number of the pre t4 kills for the Infect deck. Amulet Bloom's numbers were 23-25% if I am right. Bfrie, can we have a confirmation from you here? Is there something you want to add/correct?

I think 13% is an acceptable number and I think we can deem that the deck is not consistently violating the t4 rule, based on ktkenshin'x formula(<<25%). Meaning that this difference of 12% is a huge one.

Also, I think that WOTC will take into account the fact that the deck is boltable and highly interactable. So, opinions? How do YOU interpret those numbers/data?

PS: I may be a little bit subjective and/or biased, because I have played the deck enough to know that it's not consistently violating the T4 rule from personal experience/it has some nightmare matchups/is a glass cannon from times to times when you just do not have a second infecter.

I mean, i know ktk resampled in the bloom test, which is something i haven't done, and of course i only watched 80 games so the sample size isnt perfect, but i feel reasonably confident saying infect is not a t4 violator. The deck doesn't have anywhere near the results needed to justify a metagame ban, so my conclusion would be no reason to worry about it getting banned, and no reason to start selling the deck off or anything like that.

I think one of the other things to be mindful of is, if I am recalling correctly, that Infect also has a much higher meta share than Bloom did. That may be something factored in by WotC as well.

I'm looking back at old modernnexus articles trying to find the meta share when it was banned -- highest I'm seeing is 4.2% just before its banning. So not that different, actually, but I think bloom was one of those decks that spiked a fair bit in metashare % in the months prior to its banning when it had been low share prior to that. Infect seems to have been Tier 1 for a long while now. Not sure if it matters that much, but depends on variables WotC is using.

Bigger question is how much did cheating factor into the amulet ban

Quote from beanman1000 »

Bigger question is how much did cheating factor into the amulet ban

The data sheridan used excluded data from any known cheaters. As for unknown cheaters, well there is just no way to really know, but given the fact that infect would be just about as easy to cheat with as bloom, and the fact that we don't see similar infect numbers compared to bloom, we can assume that the amoumt of cheating that led to blooms ban is insignificant

Quote from gkourou »

while Infect has 0% turn 2 kills. Literally 0%.

Turn 1 wooded foothills fetch breeding pool glistner elf
Turn 2 wooded foothills fetch forest, gitaxian probe, mutagenic growth, mutagenic growth, become immense for 11 poison.

Literally is a strong word.

I guess this is meaning in sampled games?

Infect has at least 3-4 different goldfished t2 kills but they tend to involve multiple mutagenic growths or probes.

t1 land+elf, t2 hierarch+land, growth growth might 1+2+2+4+1 = dead.
t1 land + elf, t2 hierarch + growth growth growth growth = dead (2+2+2+2+1+1)

Incidentally the two I can think of based on hierarch are pretty unlikely to happen in actual practice because they generally require a topdecked hierarch to be sequenced that way, since most people will lead on the hierarch.