Ban Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay so every new potential creature stops being immediately evaluated by them. They are too flexible for their cost. This format is going nowhere fast because of all the low-mana & high-power cards it has. That's one of the main reasons blue-focused control can't develop. It's like a rusty pipe water drop worth of new cards that ever get included in the format because of these spell-based boundaries.
Umm... What? You realize that banning those cards would actually kill any chance of a blue deck every being in the format and power up creature decks further?
Ban Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay so every new potential creature stops being immediately evaluated by them. They are too flexible for their cost. This format is going nowhere fast because of all the low-mana & high-power cards it has. That's one of the main reasons blue-focused control can't develop. It's like a rusty pipe water drop worth of new cards that ever get included in the format because of these spell-based boundaries.
You're looking at it wrong.
Strong removal slows games down and gives a wider range of cards (creatures and non creatures) the ability to shine. Without removal, the fastest, most degenerate decks win on turn 3. If you think it's tough being a creature in a world of removal, try being a creature in a world of no removal where decks like 8whack, Death's Shadow, and Infect run around unhindered.
Blue control would have even less of a chance then.
I agree. Given blue's relative lack of strength as a color/identity, I would not be surprised to see a Preordain unban (and hardly think it would lead to a swarm of Tier 0 combo and/or control decks).
I think Preordain would be fine in the format. Over this past summer I wrote a simulator for Magic and started feeding it decklists of cards, first playing in a goldfish and later against a specific AI. The decks themselves were designed for Legacy, but I was also feeding it the occasional Modern card. One of the things I played around with a lot was the aggressive cantrip heavy decks where we often see cards like Preordain (think Delver). I had what were to me some very, very interesting results. They suggested that out of Serum Visions, Preordain, and Gitaxian Probe, that Serum Visions was the strongest card followed by Preordain and then Probe.
It took me a while to come up with a reason why Serum Visions slightly outperformed Preordain, but eventually I came up with the theory that Serum Visions always goes 3 deep while Preordain only goes say 2.5 deep and that outweighed the ability to have more control over the card you draw right away. I could see where that logic doesn't hold for some deck setups though.
Anyways, because of this I think Preordain would be safe. It helps that there's not really any tier decks that can abuse it right now either.
Ban Path to Exile, Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay so every new potential creature stops being immediately evaluated by them. They are too flexible for their cost. This format is going nowhere fast because of all the low-mana & high-power cards it has. That's one of the main reasons blue-focused control can't develop. It's like a rusty pipe water drop worth of new cards that ever get included in the format because of these spell-based boundaries.
This would not increase format diversity by allowing other creatures to shine. It would just polarize the format to a few decks with the best creatures, which would now be totally unchecked. That would mean Death's Shadow Zoo, Affinity, and Infect, along with a mess of Burn and Zoo variants. The grindiest deck in Modern would be Bant Eldrazi if we were lucky.
Blue needs decent blue effects like tapping, bouncing and countering.
For some reason the guys from WOTC print extremely underpowered blue cards (they are probably afraid that they can print some new combo or prison piece)... and blue is just a support colour in Standard, if there is some playable card like the origins Jace.
Digging deep won't help much blue control - it will help more all the combo decks that need specific combo piece; if you need more removal, just run more removal instead of cantrips.
The design of all the Boros and Gruul cards (can't think for more than 4-5 unique cards ) is also lazy and limited compared to the other colour pairs
we need our own abrupt decay( wear/tear, pte, and bolt, in one card) and a better counter spell(counterspell), and our own goyf( black has tasigur)(white needs stoneforge unban) basically. A preordain unban isnt what we need,although it would help a tiny bit but also would help combo,which is not enough.
Ryan Overturf: Would Preordain make control decks better? Yes. Unfortunately, it would also make the combo decks significantly better. I imagine we would sooner see an Ancient Stirrings ban than a Preordain unban. I believe that it offers too much card selection relative to what the idea behind the format is. An unfortunate casualty for control decks, though they’re not the only decks that would play it.
It just happens that I agree with him.
It's one of those arguments which sounds good when you make it but doesn't line up with the metagame stats or historical metagame picture. What are these combo decks which Preordain makes "significantly better?" Tier 2 Ad Nauseam? Tier 2 Temur/BtL Scapeshift? Tier 3 Storm or Grishoalbrand? What about the existing Tier 1 Jeskai Control deck, which is doing the best it can with the answers it has and would definitely benefit from more selection? It's one of those arguments grounded more in fear of historic decks than fear of current decks. Why are we still worried about Tier 3 strategies with 1% or <1% shares, and Tier 2 strategies with 2%-3% metagame shares? It's the same fear I remember when we were discussing Sword destroying aggro strategies, or AV leading to some new renaissance in blue decks and the death of BGx Midrange. It's just not grounded in the actual format picture.
Don't forget that they will play safe for some time after the Eldrazi mistake.
Even if the combo decks aren't oppressive, GR decks decks have literally no way to interact with spells (outside of redirecting something with Fork ).
That's the point of the color pie. Presumably a GR deck is playing to other strengths (like Gruul Zoo, Breach Titan, etc. do), so that it doesn't need to have a significant number of ways to interact with spells on the stack.
Ad Nauseam plays Boseiju and Leylines in the sideboard and Pact of Negation maindeck. I can't see how "counter target blue instant or instant that targets permanents you control" helps these decks.
It would be cool all archetypes to be viable, but if we want diverse format, we will need more answers not only for the 1-drop aggro, but also for the combo decks.
I don't understand your point. Black can't interact with a spell on the stack very well either, neither can white.
Are you saying that G/R decks need better stack interaction?
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Right, those are a couple facts. What is your point? I'm not being argumentative, I just don't understand what those facts have to do with the banlist, or preordain being discussed as a possible unban target.
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What does the RG color identity have to do with bans, unbans, or banlist policy generally? This seems very off-topic so stick to the thread discussion at hand.
Ryan Overturf: Would Preordain make control decks better? Yes. Unfortunately, it would also make the combo decks significantly better. I imagine we would sooner see an Ancient Stirrings ban than a Preordain unban. I believe that it offers too much card selection relative to what the idea behind the format is. An unfortunate casualty for control decks, though they’re not the only decks that would play it.
It just happens that I agree with him.
It's one of those arguments which sounds good when you make it but doesn't line up with the metagame stats or historical metagame picture. What are these combo decks which Preordain makes "significantly better?" Tier 2 Ad Nauseam? Tier 2 Temur/BtL Scapeshift? Tier 3 Storm or Grishoalbrand? What about the existing Tier 1 Jeskai Control deck, which is doing the best it can with the answers it has and would definitely benefit from more selection? It's one of those arguments grounded more in fear of historic decks than fear of current decks. Why are we still worried about Tier 3 strategies with 1% or <1% shares, and Tier 2 strategies with 2%-3% metagame shares? It's the same fear I remember when we were discussing Sword destroying aggro strategies, or AV leading to some new renaissance in blue decks and the death of BGx Midrange. It's just not grounded in the actual format picture.
You do not seem to state anything about future combo decks that probably are going to be presented with new prints. Admittedly, this was always happening and it probably wont stop now. WOTC gave me the impression that care a lot about this, because they see Preordain more of a turn 4 rule violator piece than a better answer to Control decks(IMO this is right). Unfortunately, I am not sure on the subject, but the indications can tell us that this is the case.
On top of that, we have seen many times tier 3 or tier 2 decks gaining too much only from a card(and much more from a consistency tool).
Look, the sky would not fall. I could imagine a meta with preordain and probably it would be OK for now. Even if would be totally OK for now, would you be certain about the future? it's not what control decks exactly need. Do you expect that thise card will solve their problems, at least partially?
But the real question is "is it what control decks really need"? Do you expect that this card will solve their problems, at least partially?
I expect Preordain to help the more proactive blue decks like delver and jesksi flash, and i also expect future prints to help these archetypes as well, as better midrange creatures have come every set, while new combo pieces have been almost nonexistent in recent years
I actually believe Goryo's Vengeance could easily threaten to be a problem with a Preordain unban.
The deck has incredible goldfish potential, is fairly hard to interact with, plays at instant speed and is surprisingly resilient with the splice mechanic on alot of their cards. The only thing it is lacking is consistency which Preordain would provide. I expect its popularity to continue rising alone because of the inclusion of Collective Brutality already, it fills a few holes the deck had giving it another way to discard creatures while interacting with the board, gaining life vs aggro or discarding a counter/relevant spell. That backed up by a possible boseiju/pact of negation package could be pretty messed up in the right shell.
I guess when the time comes we'd address that problem since it's still developing competitive, just thought I'd mention it. I'm too unfamiliar with Ad Nauseam to know how much Preordain would affect it but I believe if Infect is nerfed and Preordain is unbanned it would be the other combo deck which greatly benefits and could easily get into tier 1 territory.
I wouldn't mind an unban though since it would help both combo and control, hopefully unbannings are the route wotc decides to take instead of banning more stuff and bringing more uncertainty onto the format.
The only thing I never understood about that Dryad Arbor kill is what the heck the Dryad Arbor was doing in the deck G3 in the first place. Vs Abzan CoCo where getting Pontiff'd is a risk I'd have thought it would not be there. Maybe Todd was running it MD in that tourney I guess.
Anyways, back on topic
Probably playing 1x in the main as an out to stuff like Liliana of the Veil / Devour Flesh. Can't really afford to side out lands.
The thing is, that match is a few months old when running a MD Dryad Arbor was very unusual, Death's Shadow was not popular at all at that time so Dryad Arbor would be exclusively for Jund so it wasn't worth MD'ing it. Having a MD Arbor against any other decks can be a huge liabillity.
If Preordain actually breaks Goryo's, that's not really an issue with Preordain.
Preordain is worse than Faithless Looting in that deck. It's actually sort of silly that Faithless Looting is legal and Preordain is banned, since Faithless Looting is only used to enable GY-based combos and does so better than Preordain does.
The two decks that were the reason for Preordain's banning at the time (Twin and UR Storm) have since been hit with bans, and it's extremely unlikely that Storm would suddenly be too consistent with Preordain, since on top of the Seething Song ban Eidolon of the Great Revel and Eidolon of Rhetoric have both since been printed.
If Preordain breaks Goryo's, ban SSG or Looting or Goryo's itself.
Preordain at least deserves a shot in the current format.
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Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
I actually believe Goryo's Vengeance could easily threaten to be a problem with a Preordain unban.
The deck has incredible goldfish potential, is fairly hard to interact with, plays at instant speed and is surprisingly resilient with the splice mechanic on alot of their cards. The only thing it is lacking is consistency which Preordain would provide. I expect its popularity to continue rising alone because of the inclusion of Collective Brutality already, it fills a few holes the deck had giving it another way to discard creatures while interacting with the board, gaining life vs aggro or discarding a counter/relevant spell. That backed up by a possible boseiju/pact of negation package could be pretty messed up in the right shell.
The version of Goryo's that plays at instant speed and most uses the Splice mechanic doesn't play blue. The Grixis version is much slower and requires attacking, but is more consistent than the Grishoalbrand version. The guys in the Goryo's thread pretty much all said the Grishoalbrand version is the better deck overall, and Preordain probably wouldn't be enough to change that.
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Modern UBR Grixis Shadow UBR UR Izzet Phoenix UR UW UW Control UW GB GB Rock GB
Commander BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
If Preordain actually breaks Goryo's, that's not really an issue with Preordain.
Preordain is worse than Faithless Looting in that deck. It's actually sort of silly that Faithless Looting is legal and Preordain is banned, since Faithless Looting is only used to enable GY-based combos and does so better than Preordain does.
Pretty much this. Preordain does help find various pieces, but it is not an enabler and the deck that can win at instant speed (shoal) is very tight on flexspots. To run preordain you'd have to go to a worse (more painful) manabase and cut 3-4 cards to fit it in, which honestly asking a lot. Do you cut collective brutality and lose your interaction plus a discard outlet? Do you cut Night's Whisper which allows you a natural T2 discard on the draw (probably the only place you could really cut)? The deck really only has 3 or 4 flex spots in the main which may not be true anymore since Collective Brutality was printed.
I seriously doubt grishoalbrand would be broken with preordain. The RB version is far more consistent and the U splash is better served with cards like Izzet Charm, Taigam's Scheming (dig 5 and dump as many into the yard), and sideboard tech... all of which isn't enough of a benefit in actual games.
Grixis Goryo's would likely replace Slight of Hand, but it is still a turn 4 deck, can't win at instant speed, and is softer to interaction. This version also is not running pact of negation since it can't win the turn it puts Griselbrand in play.
TLDR: Goryo's decks need to stop being used as a scapegoat for U based cantrips. The more explosive versions probably don't want it and the slower versions are fine even if they became slightly more consistent.
Preordain goes 3 deep as well, and is better than serum visions due to being able to scry 2 BEFORE you draw allowing you to either put an answer on top then draw it, OR it lets you negate the next 2 "bad" cards and then hope for a good card on the draw.
Preordain doesn't always go 3 deep. Anyways, it's just a theory I have to explain the results, it could be wrong but I know I observed over millions of automated games that Serum Visions performed better than Preordain.
It doesn't always go three deep because sometimes you don't need too, which is what makes it better. Not to mention that it's an instant, not a sorcery. I'm really not sure why we're having the conversation at all, seems like semantics to me.
I think Preordain would be an interesting unban that could help blue combo and control a little bit. I'd like to see storm be a little better, but only because it's the only modern combo deck I enjoy lol
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"What does MtheW stand for? The world may never know."
It doesn't always go three deep because sometimes you don't need too, which is what makes it better. Not to mention that it's an instant, not a sorcery. I'm really not sure why we're having the conversation at all, seems like semantics to me.
I think Preordain would be an interesting unban that could help blue combo and control a little bit. I'd like to see storm be a little better, but only because it's the only modern combo deck I enjoy lol
It doesn't always go three deep because sometimes you don't need too, which is what makes it better. Not to mention that it's an instant, not a sorcery.
No, no it is not. Preordain is a sorcery speed card.
If Preordain breaks Goryos, you ban Goryos, end of story. Ryan is a good player, but his statements are based on speculation and quite frankly fear. There are no numbers behind his statements and no historical data. It's an educated guess at best - but I'd rather trust numbers.
Right now combo decks are slower than aggro decks, and somehow he thinks combo, alongside control doesn't need the card selection boost? Please.
The version of Goryo's that plays at instant speed and most uses the Splice mechanic doesn't play blue. The Grixis version is much slower and requires attacking, but is more consistent than the Grishoalbrand version. The guys in the Goryo's thread pretty much all said the Grishoalbrand version is the better deck overall, and Preordain probably wouldn't be enough to change that.
TLDR: Goryo's decks need to stop being used as a scapegoat for U based cantrips. The more explosive versions probably don't want it and the slower versions are fine even if they became slightly more consistent.
Thank you. Sometimes I feel like people are just blindly saying that "Preordain will break Goryo's Vengeance" without even considering everything. Firstly, the RB version doesn't even play Serum Visions. The Grixis version, afaik, runs 4 Serum Visions, which would be canned for Preordain if it is unbanned. That is not that much of an upgrade. It doesn't "break" Vengeance in any way.
If anything, Tier 3 Storm is more of a concern than Goryo's Vengeance. Their Preordain is in a smaller deck (Git Probe) and is played more often (Pyromancer Ascension/Past in Flames). I know that I would try Storm for a bit if Preordain was unbanned. Do I think it would be Tier 1? No, not really, maybe Tier 2 at best...
*People need to get over their Goryo's Vengeance fear. I don't know what the deck did to you. For what it's worth, the past 4 times I've played against Thing/Ascension, they have won the die roll all 4 times and killed me on turn 4. I lost each of those 4 matches - to a deck that I don't even think is that good. So technically, I should be talking about bans with that deck in mind...
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
So it looks like Maro's "modern banned cards head to head" on twitter is finally over. Jace the Mindsculptor mat have won, but I'm not sure yet.
What do you guys reckon, jace unban in the future? I'm struggling to see how it would actually be a bad unban. Twin isn't around any more. It's a slow 4-mana durdly card. Obviously great (no doubts there) but too busted for modern? Nahhh
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
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Umm... What? You realize that banning those cards would actually kill any chance of a blue deck every being in the format and power up creature decks further?
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
You're looking at it wrong.
Strong removal slows games down and gives a wider range of cards (creatures and non creatures) the ability to shine. Without removal, the fastest, most degenerate decks win on turn 3. If you think it's tough being a creature in a world of removal, try being a creature in a world of no removal where decks like 8whack, Death's Shadow, and Infect run around unhindered.
Blue control would have even less of a chance then.
I think Preordain would be fine in the format. Over this past summer I wrote a simulator for Magic and started feeding it decklists of cards, first playing in a goldfish and later against a specific AI. The decks themselves were designed for Legacy, but I was also feeding it the occasional Modern card. One of the things I played around with a lot was the aggressive cantrip heavy decks where we often see cards like Preordain (think Delver). I had what were to me some very, very interesting results. They suggested that out of Serum Visions, Preordain, and Gitaxian Probe, that Serum Visions was the strongest card followed by Preordain and then Probe.
It took me a while to come up with a reason why Serum Visions slightly outperformed Preordain, but eventually I came up with the theory that Serum Visions always goes 3 deep while Preordain only goes say 2.5 deep and that outweighed the ability to have more control over the card you draw right away. I could see where that logic doesn't hold for some deck setups though.
Anyways, because of this I think Preordain would be safe. It helps that there's not really any tier decks that can abuse it right now either.
This would not increase format diversity by allowing other creatures to shine. It would just polarize the format to a few decks with the best creatures, which would now be totally unchecked. That would mean Death's Shadow Zoo, Affinity, and Infect, along with a mess of Burn and Zoo variants. The grindiest deck in Modern would be Bant Eldrazi if we were lucky.
decks playing:
none
It's one of those arguments which sounds good when you make it but doesn't line up with the metagame stats or historical metagame picture. What are these combo decks which Preordain makes "significantly better?" Tier 2 Ad Nauseam? Tier 2 Temur/BtL Scapeshift? Tier 3 Storm or Grishoalbrand? What about the existing Tier 1 Jeskai Control deck, which is doing the best it can with the answers it has and would definitely benefit from more selection? It's one of those arguments grounded more in fear of historic decks than fear of current decks. Why are we still worried about Tier 3 strategies with 1% or <1% shares, and Tier 2 strategies with 2%-3% metagame shares? It's the same fear I remember when we were discussing Sword destroying aggro strategies, or AV leading to some new renaissance in blue decks and the death of BGx Midrange. It's just not grounded in the actual format picture.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
That's the point of the color pie. Presumably a GR deck is playing to other strengths (like Gruul Zoo, Breach Titan, etc. do), so that it doesn't need to have a significant number of ways to interact with spells on the stack.
I don't understand your point. Black can't interact with a spell on the stack very well either, neither can white.
Are you saying that G/R decks need better stack interaction?
KnightfallGWUR
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Burn RBG
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Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I expect Preordain to help the more proactive blue decks like delver and jesksi flash, and i also expect future prints to help these archetypes as well, as better midrange creatures have come every set, while new combo pieces have been almost nonexistent in recent years
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
The deck has incredible goldfish potential, is fairly hard to interact with, plays at instant speed and is surprisingly resilient with the splice mechanic on alot of their cards. The only thing it is lacking is consistency which Preordain would provide. I expect its popularity to continue rising alone because of the inclusion of Collective Brutality already, it fills a few holes the deck had giving it another way to discard creatures while interacting with the board, gaining life vs aggro or discarding a counter/relevant spell. That backed up by a possible boseiju/pact of negation package could be pretty messed up in the right shell.
I guess when the time comes we'd address that problem since it's still developing competitive, just thought I'd mention it. I'm too unfamiliar with Ad Nauseam to know how much Preordain would affect it but I believe if Infect is nerfed and Preordain is unbanned it would be the other combo deck which greatly benefits and could easily get into tier 1 territory.
I wouldn't mind an unban though since it would help both combo and control, hopefully unbannings are the route wotc decides to take instead of banning more stuff and bringing more uncertainty onto the format.
The thing is, that match is a few months old when running a MD Dryad Arbor was very unusual, Death's Shadow was not popular at all at that time so Dryad Arbor would be exclusively for Jund so it wasn't worth MD'ing it. Having a MD Arbor against any other decks can be a huge liabillity.
Preordain is worse than Faithless Looting in that deck. It's actually sort of silly that Faithless Looting is legal and Preordain is banned, since Faithless Looting is only used to enable GY-based combos and does so better than Preordain does.
The two decks that were the reason for Preordain's banning at the time (Twin and UR Storm) have since been hit with bans, and it's extremely unlikely that Storm would suddenly be too consistent with Preordain, since on top of the Seething Song ban Eidolon of the Great Revel and Eidolon of Rhetoric have both since been printed.
If Preordain breaks Goryo's, ban SSG or Looting or Goryo's itself.
Preordain at least deserves a shot in the current format.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
The version of Goryo's that plays at instant speed and most uses the Splice mechanic doesn't play blue. The Grixis version is much slower and requires attacking, but is more consistent than the Grishoalbrand version. The guys in the Goryo's thread pretty much all said the Grishoalbrand version is the better deck overall, and Preordain probably wouldn't be enough to change that.
UBR Grixis Shadow UBR
UR Izzet Phoenix UR
UW UW Control UW
GB GB Rock GB
Commander
BG Meren of Clan Nel Toth BG
BGUW Atraxa, Praetor's Voice BGUW
Pretty much this. Preordain does help find various pieces, but it is not an enabler and the deck that can win at instant speed (shoal) is very tight on flexspots. To run preordain you'd have to go to a worse (more painful) manabase and cut 3-4 cards to fit it in, which honestly asking a lot. Do you cut collective brutality and lose your interaction plus a discard outlet? Do you cut Night's Whisper which allows you a natural T2 discard on the draw (probably the only place you could really cut)? The deck really only has 3 or 4 flex spots in the main which may not be true anymore since Collective Brutality was printed.
I seriously doubt grishoalbrand would be broken with preordain. The RB version is far more consistent and the U splash is better served with cards like Izzet Charm, Taigam's Scheming (dig 5 and dump as many into the yard), and sideboard tech... all of which isn't enough of a benefit in actual games.
Grixis Goryo's would likely replace Slight of Hand, but it is still a turn 4 deck, can't win at instant speed, and is softer to interaction. This version also is not running pact of negation since it can't win the turn it puts Griselbrand in play.
TLDR: Goryo's decks need to stop being used as a scapegoat for U based cantrips. The more explosive versions probably don't want it and the slower versions are fine even if they became slightly more consistent.
Preordain doesn't always go 3 deep. Anyways, it's just a theory I have to explain the results, it could be wrong but I know I observed over millions of automated games that Serum Visions performed better than Preordain.
I think Preordain would be an interesting unban that could help blue combo and control a little bit. I'd like to see storm be a little better, but only because it's the only modern combo deck I enjoy lol
"What does MtheW stand for? The world may never know."
Preordain is a sorcery
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
No, no it is not. Preordain is a sorcery speed card.
Right now combo decks are slower than aggro decks, and somehow he thinks combo, alongside control doesn't need the card selection boost? Please.
"What does MtheW stand for? The world may never know."
Grixis Grishoalbrand does exist.
For example: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11502&d=265434&f=MO
I'm not saying it would slot right into current lists, and the deck does have few flex slots, but updated grixis lists could easily emerge.
About taigam's scheming, I recall alot of people finding the card terrible after a bit of testing since it does not even draw you a card.
I do agree with the concept that if Preordain somehow breaks Goryo's then it would warrant a Goryo's ban instead.
Anyways, the announcement is just a couple of days away, let's hope for the best
Thank you. Sometimes I feel like people are just blindly saying that "Preordain will break Goryo's Vengeance" without even considering everything. Firstly, the RB version doesn't even play Serum Visions. The Grixis version, afaik, runs 4 Serum Visions, which would be canned for Preordain if it is unbanned. That is not that much of an upgrade. It doesn't "break" Vengeance in any way.
If anything, Tier 3 Storm is more of a concern than Goryo's Vengeance. Their Preordain is in a smaller deck (Git Probe) and is played more often (Pyromancer Ascension/Past in Flames). I know that I would try Storm for a bit if Preordain was unbanned. Do I think it would be Tier 1? No, not really, maybe Tier 2 at best...
*People need to get over their Goryo's Vengeance fear. I don't know what the deck did to you. For what it's worth, the past 4 times I've played against Thing/Ascension, they have won the die roll all 4 times and killed me on turn 4.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)What do you guys reckon, jace unban in the future? I'm struggling to see how it would actually be a bad unban. Twin isn't around any more. It's a slow 4-mana durdly card. Obviously great (no doubts there) but too busted for modern? Nahhh