Welcome to the Modern banlist discussion! Here, you can discuss everything related to the banlist, from questioning the possibility of unbans to recent announcements of new bannings.
Please follow a few simple rules while you are here.
All MTGS forum rules and Modern subforum rules apply here. For example, if you see a user flaming, spamming, or trolling, please report him/her instead of responding to it.
All posts MUST relate directly to the banlist, bans, unbans, and/or banlist policy. Comments about other Modern issues, grievances, or topics will be treated as spam.
It is okay to discuss Legacy only if it is related to Modern bans and unbans.
Discussion about dramatically increasing the size of the banlist by more than 2-3 cards is not allowed. In the past, this sort of discussion has derailed the thread into completely unconstructive debate. There is a fine line between approved ban discussion (e.g. cards that are consistently breaking the turn 4 rule in top tier decks, or cards that make oppressive top tier decks) and spammy, prohibited discussion (e.g. banning Immolating Souleater and Fling because they theoretically break the turn 4 rule). If you see someone doing this, report them instead of responding to it. If you have a question about this, feel free to get in touch with staff to ask.
Do not discuss the "death of Modern" or generally claim that it is dying.
Do not discuss reprints of new cards or card design. We have other threads for bothtopics.
Defining archetypes (e.g. "What is control?" "Does Modern have true control?") is only okay if it directly relates to unbans and bans. For example, if your post doesn't reference a card like Ancestral Vision, it won't be okay.
Remember, this is a place to discuss, and have fun. Keep it civil and keep your posts constructive.
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Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Some cards enable a top tier deck to consistently win on turn 3 or earlier. Because this violates the "turn 4" rule of the format, the following cards have been banned:
Other cards have been banned because they make certain decks too consistent/reliable and thus stagnate the format. Here are some examples of these cards:
Some cards, currently only one, are banned because they were just mistakes. This card is one of the most broken cards of all time and has been banned in almost every format where it was or is legal:
Finally, there are some cards that were banned for logistical reasons. These cards made tournaments last too long and were banned to make events run smoother. They were not necessarily banned for power reasons.
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The following are links to WotC's in-depth explanations as to why cards have gotten banned since the beginning of the format:
The only bans I want are Choke/boil/flashfires. (aka color specific land hate cards that are efficient). Other than that the format is fine. I'd also watchlist infect.
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
meh, I was hoping for unbans, but I guess that wasn't realistic (insert first 'WotC are cowards' here)I agree with no bans, nothing is too strong, I would like a moderate boost in power across the board, but it'll have to wait until Standard isn't stuck at near-draft low power levels
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
no changes was correct this time around, and I agree. I feel that the format will eventually have to see a few cards go, but their time has not yet come:
simian spirit guide only really exists to push the speed rules in modern. The day that banning it doesn't make Ad Nauseum go away as a deck is probably the day it hits the short list to get the axe.
goryo's vengeance is not broken now, but I can envision a future in which some other consistency tool gets printed to push the deck hard enough to be unfair.
Otherwise, ban list looks reasonably stable for the time being and I hope to see no major changes for a good long while. Other cards could eventually come off the banned list, especially the more expensive (mana cost wise) ones, but I don't forsee that happening with the current state of Magic Design and powerlevel, as WOTC would want to couple those unbans with a supply increase.
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Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Not really a surprise. I doubt anything will change in September either, unless something in EMN breaks Modern. I don't think anything will be banned or unbanned until January, at which point we may see another shake-up unban (like Sword/AV was). Either Splinter Twin or any of the other borderline cards. In the meantime, I will continue playing matchup-roulette and sideboard-roulette in massively swingy games against way too many different decks to care about being competitive. It's fun once you stop caring about actually winning, but I don't know if it's necessarily a "better" format.
Now is the twin unban the unmaking of the roulette that happens light now?
Not necessarily. But it would likely bring back clear "best decks" which you can predictably prepare for while helping give an answer to a lot of the random, inconsistent "oops I win" decks in the lower tiers. I'm probably looking through this with Twin-colored glasses, but I've also not found a deck I liked to play for the past six months, so it's probably just whimsical thinking.
Now is the twin unban the unmaking of the roulette that happens light now?
Not necessarily. But it would likely bring back clear "best decks" which you can predictably prepare for while helping give an answer to a lot of the random, inconsistent "oops I win" decks in the lower tiers. I'm probably looking through this with Twin-colored glasses, but I've also not found a deck I liked to play for the past six months, so it's probably just whimsical thinking.
I am in the same boat, Modern just isn't for me, since all I care about is winning and the only decks I like to play, WOTC bans because they are "too good". The format is not a good for proving who is better at Magic, but rather it's a format that allows you to use your collection to play Magic that doesn't have an upkeep cost like Standard. I'm having trouble figuring out what Modern deck to play for the PPTQ season because every deck "loses to something out of your control". I hate that quality in any of the decks I play in a tournament. And don't drop the Jund argument because "game against everything" is not the same as "beats everything". You need a deck that "beats everything" to spike a big tournament.
Now is the twin unban the unmaking of the roulette that happens light now?
Not necessarily. But it would likely bring back clear "best decks" which you can predictably prepare for while helping give an answer to a lot of the random, inconsistent "oops I win" decks in the lower tiers. I'm probably looking through this with Twin-colored glasses, but I've also not found a deck I liked to play for the past six months, so it's probably just whimsical thinking.
I am in the same boat, Modern just isn't for me, since all I care about is winning and the only decks I like to play, WOTC bans because they are "too good". The format is not a good for proving who is better at Magic, but rather it's a format that allows you to use your collection to play Magic that doesn't have an upkeep cost like Standard. I'm having trouble figuring out what Modern deck to play for the PPTQ season because every deck "loses to something out of your control". I hate that quality in any of the decks I play in a tournament. And don't drop the Jund argument because "game against everything" is not the same as "beats everything". You need a deck that "beats everything" to spike a big tournament.
If a deck beats everything, then everyone plays it. If everyone plays it, it doesnt beat everything anymore since it doesn't beat the mirror. Therefore you end up with either a skill based mirror (caw blade) or a luck based mirror (eldrazi) both of which take things out of your control. Skill based because face it, if you arent able to succeed in modern with the current tools, your skill is lacking (how many modern opens has hoogland t32d in a row now?) and luck based mirrors are just that, luck based
Now is the twin unban the unmaking of the roulette that happens light now?
Not necessarily. But it would likely bring back clear "best decks" which you can predictably prepare for while helping give an answer to a lot of the random, inconsistent "oops I win" decks in the lower tiers. I'm probably looking through this with Twin-colored glasses, but I've also not found a deck I liked to play for the past six months, so it's probably just whimsical thinking.
I am in the same boat, Modern just isn't for me, since all I care about is winning and the only decks I like to play, WOTC bans because they are "too good". The format is not a good for proving who is better at Magic, but rather it's a format that allows you to use your collection to play Magic that doesn't have an upkeep cost like Standard. I'm having trouble figuring out what Modern deck to play for the PPTQ season because every deck "loses to something out of your control". I hate that quality in any of the decks I play in a tournament. And don't drop the Jund argument because "game against everything" is not the same as "beats everything". You need a deck that "beats everything" to spike a big tournament.
I agree, I enjoy always being able to barely grind out wins and barely lose games. not the extreme of each, which seems to happen ALOT in modern. its why I don't really play it much anymore. 30/70 match ups with sideboard lottery is not my idea of skill, and it just got worse with dredge getting better.
if you want to play the best deck and enter the tournament from a 'privileged' position there are the GW decks in standard (for as long as it lasts at least) and Miracles in Legacy, how about we have an actually balanced format for a change?
the decision was both great and expected, raising the power would only decrease the viability of decks that get nothing from the hypothetical unbans and lead to a slightly worse modern, while banning something now would make no sense at all, so no changes it is
Privileged position you say? I think the main issue with modern isn't something that the ban list can help. The main issue is that there are not many police cards. (majority of them are in jund colors hence it's perma tier 1 status)
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On mtgsalvation people don't want to discuss ideas, so I give people something else to discuss: my controversial opinions.
Now is the twin unban the unmaking of the roulette that happens light now?
Not necessarily. But it would likely bring back clear "best decks" which you can predictably prepare for while helping give an answer to a lot of the random, inconsistent "oops I win" decks in the lower tiers. I'm probably looking through this with Twin-colored glasses, but I've also not found a deck I liked to play for the past six months, so it's probably just whimsical thinking.
I am in the same boat, Modern just isn't for me, since all I care about is winning and the only decks I like to play, WOTC bans because they are "too good". The format is not a good for proving who is better at Magic, but rather it's a format that allows you to use your collection to play Magic that doesn't have an upkeep cost like Standard. I'm having trouble figuring out what Modern deck to play for the PPTQ season because every deck "loses to something out of your control". I hate that quality in any of the decks I play in a tournament. And don't drop the Jund argument because "game against everything" is not the same as "beats everything". You need a deck that "beats everything" to spike a big tournament.
If a deck beats everything, then everyone plays it. If everyone plays it, it doesnt beat everything anymore since it doesn't beat the mirror. Therefore you end up with either a skill based mirror (caw blade) or a luck based mirror (eldrazi) both of which take things out of your control. Skill based because face it, if you arent able to succeed in modern with the current tools, your skill is lacking (how many modern opens has hoogland t32d in a row now?) and luck based mirrors are just that, luck based
Well how do you succeed in the current Modern? I can't beat Soul Sisters with Burn. Do I need to Jared Boettcher my opponent's deck? Do I need to Fabrizio Anteri my deck? The only solution I can come up with is cheat or play a different deck, which is the case with all the decks I've tested in the Modern format. Since you're clearly saying I'm lacking skill, you obviously believe you are a better player than me, so how do you beat your unwinnable matchups? I clearly should have started cheating against Tron players who always have turn 3 Karn every game when I play Jund. Notice a pattern here? Outside of monopolizing a certain deck in my area, I can't eliminate bad matchups in Modern.
Now is the twin unban the unmaking of the roulette that happens light now?
Not necessarily. But it would likely bring back clear "best decks" which you can predictably prepare for while helping give an answer to a lot of the random, inconsistent "oops I win" decks in the lower tiers. I'm probably looking through this with Twin-colored glasses, but I've also not found a deck I liked to play for the past six months, so it's probably just whimsical thinking.
I am in the same boat, Modern just isn't for me, since all I care about is winning and the only decks I like to play, WOTC bans because they are "too good". The format is not a good for proving who is better at Magic, but rather it's a format that allows you to use your collection to play Magic that doesn't have an upkeep cost like Standard. I'm having trouble figuring out what Modern deck to play for the PPTQ season because every deck "loses to something out of your control". I hate that quality in any of the decks I play in a tournament. And don't drop the Jund argument because "game against everything" is not the same as "beats everything". You need a deck that "beats everything" to spike a big tournament.
If a deck beats everything, then everyone plays it. If everyone plays it, it doesnt beat everything anymore since it doesn't beat the mirror. Therefore you end up with either a skill based mirror (caw blade) or a luck based mirror (eldrazi) both of which take things out of your control. Skill based because face it, if you arent able to succeed in modern with the current tools, your skill is lacking (how many modern opens has hoogland t32d in a row now?) and luck based mirrors are just that, luck based
Well how do you succeed in the current Modern? I can't beat Soul Sisters with Burn. Do I need to Jared Boettcher my opponent's deck? Do I need to Fabrizio Anteri my deck? The only solution I can come up with is cheat or play a different deck, which is the case with all the decks I've tested in the Modern format. Since you're clearly saying I'm lacking skill, you obviously believe you are a better player than me, so how do you beat your unwinnable matchups? I clearly should have started cheating against Tron players who always have turn 3 Karn every game when I play Jund. Notice a pattern here? Outside of monopolizing a certain deck in my area, I can't eliminate bad matchups in Modern.
ok, I actually play Burn and Tron, so I know something about these things. First, Tron does not 'always have t3 Karn', that is the ideal hand for the deck, I would say maybe 1/4 games on a solid day. if it is happening significantly more than that, you are just unlucky, if it happens every time, your opponent IS CHEATING. Tron is not an infinite automatic win combo, but it is a combo deck, and it is geared to do extremely well against midrange decks. as for Sisters, when I sleeve up Burn, I don't worry about fringe playable decks, which that is. in either one, if that is a huge part of your meta, SB harder. if you actually want to eliminate bad matchups entirely and have every game come down to skill, it is actually very simple 1) sell your cards 2) walk away 3) buy a nice chess set. I really hate being an ass, but no format will have a deck with no bad MU's for long. Eldrazi was just a few months ago, wasthat fun for you? because that is what it looks like.
alternately, if you think that your skill is on a level where you deserve to do well, go design a deck that does well against everything. my suggestion is a control base with 15anti-'every flavor of aggro' cards in the SB. the players who can't accept bad matchups are vastly outnumbered by the people who want diversity, Wizardswill always cater to the more profitable group
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
Not necessarily. But it would likely bring back clear "best decks" which you can predictably prepare for while helping give an answer to a lot of the random, inconsistent "oops I win" decks in the lower tiers. I'm probably looking through this with Twin-colored glasses, but I've also not found a deck I liked to play for the past six months, so it's probably just whimsical thinking.
I am in the same boat, Modern just isn't for me, since all I care about is winning and the only decks I like to play, WOTC bans because they are "too good". The format is not a good for proving who is better at Magic, but rather it's a format that allows you to use your collection to play Magic that doesn't have an upkeep cost like Standard. I'm having trouble figuring out what Modern deck to play for the PPTQ season because every deck "loses to something out of your control". I hate that quality in any of the decks I play in a tournament. And don't drop the Jund argument because "game against everything" is not the same as "beats everything". You need a deck that "beats everything" to spike a big tournament.
If a deck beats everything, then everyone plays it. If everyone plays it, it doesnt beat everything anymore since it doesn't beat the mirror. Therefore you end up with either a skill based mirror (caw blade) or a luck based mirror (eldrazi) both of which take things out of your control. Skill based because face it, if you arent able to succeed in modern with the current tools, your skill is lacking (how many modern opens has hoogland t32d in a row now?) and luck based mirrors are just that, luck based
Well how do you succeed in the current Modern? I can't beat Soul Sisters with Burn. Do I need to Jared Boettcher my opponent's deck? Do I need to Fabrizio Anteri my deck? The only solution I can come up with is cheat or play a different deck, which is the case with all the decks I've tested in the Modern format. Since you're clearly saying I'm lacking skill, you obviously believe you are a better player than me, so how do you beat your unwinnable matchups? I clearly should have started cheating against Tron players who always have turn 3 Karn every game when I play Jund. Notice a pattern here? Outside of monopolizing a certain deck in my area, I can't eliminate bad matchups in Modern.
ok, I actually play Burn and Tron, so I know something about these things. First, Tron does not 'always have t3 Karn', that is the ideal hand for the deck, I would say maybe 1/4 games on a solid day. if it is happening significantly more than that, you are just unlucky, if it happens every time, your opponent IS CHEATING. Tron is not an infinite automatic win combo, but it is a combo deck, and it is geared to do extremely well against midrange decks. as for Sisters, when I sleeve up Burn, I don't worry about fringe playable decks, which that is. in either one, if that is a huge part of your meta, SB harder. if you actually want to eliminate bad matchups entirely and have every game come down to skill, it is actually very simple 1) sell your cards 2) walk away 3) buy a nice chess set. I really hate being an ass, but no format will have a deck with no bad MU's for long. Eldrazi was just a few months ago, wasthat fun for you? because that is what it looks like.
alternately, if you think that your skill is on a level where you deserve to do well, go design a deck that does well against everything. my suggestion is a control base with 15anti-'every flavor of aggro' cards in the SB. the players who can't accept bad matchups are vastly outnumbered by the people who want diversity, Wizardswill always cater to the more profitable group
Eldrazi was fun for me, I won a lot of matches of Magic. I punished people who made the mistake of bringing something else to a tournament. The only people that complained about that period of time were the people who didn't have the resources to obtain the deck and the people who were extremely attached to their pet deck. And I never claimed that I was skilled at Magic since it has been pointed out by bfrie that I'm not very good at Magic so I don't know where you got your idea of my skill level from.
Now is the twin unban the unmaking of the roulette that happens light now?
Not necessarily. But it would likely bring back clear "best decks" which you can predictably prepare for while helping give an answer to a lot of the random, inconsistent "oops I win" decks in the lower tiers. I'm probably looking through this with Twin-colored glasses, but I've also not found a deck I liked to play for the past six months, so it's probably just whimsical thinking.
I am in the same boat, Modern just isn't for me, since all I care about is winning and the only decks I like to play, WOTC bans because they are "too good". The format is not a good for proving who is better at Magic, but rather it's a format that allows you to use your collection to play Magic that doesn't have an upkeep cost like Standard. I'm having trouble figuring out what Modern deck to play for the PPTQ season because every deck "loses to something out of your control". I hate that quality in any of the decks I play in a tournament. And don't drop the Jund argument because "game against everything" is not the same as "beats everything". You need a deck that "beats everything" to spike a big tournament.
If a deck beats everything, then everyone plays it. If everyone plays it, it doesnt beat everything anymore since it doesn't beat the mirror. Therefore you end up with either a skill based mirror (caw blade) or a luck based mirror (eldrazi) both of which take things out of your control. Skill based because face it, if you arent able to succeed in modern with the current tools, your skill is lacking (how many modern opens has hoogland t32d in a row now?) and luck based mirrors are just that, luck based
Well how do you succeed in the current Modern? I can't beat Soul Sisters with Burn. Do I need to Jared Boettcher my opponent's deck? Do I need to Fabrizio Anteri my deck? The only solution I can come up with is cheat or play a different deck, which is the case with all the decks I've tested in the Modern format. Since you're clearly saying I'm lacking skill, you obviously believe you are a better player than me, so how do you beat your unwinnable matchups? I clearly should have started cheating against Tron players who always have turn 3 Karn every game when I play Jund. Notice a pattern here? Outside of monopolizing a certain deck in my area, I can't eliminate bad matchups in Modern.
Simple. Pick a deck you really like, pref a deck in tier 1-2 so you know it has the capability of being successful. Master it. Tune it to your meta. Change your sideboard AND mainboard for your bad matchups that are local. Notice theres no affinity local to you? Take that stony silence out of there already! If you show up week to week with the same 75, you will lose to the smarter players who are adjusting their lists weekly. If your deck is properly tuned to your local meta, you will do equally well at your local pptq's and whatever. If you are above pptq's, then you wouldnt be in this thread complaining that you cant throw money at a wall and end up with a 100% win rate
if you want to play the best deck and enter the tournament from a 'privileged' position there are the GW decks in standard (for as long as it lasts at least) and Miracles in Legacy, how about we have an actually balanced format for a change?
the decision was both great and expected, raising the power would only decrease the viability of decks that get nothing from the hypothetical unbans and lead to a slightly worse modern, while banning something now would make no sense at all, so no changes it is
I think that's why I love modern right now, its so wide open and there's no true "best deck"
Not necessarily. But it would likely bring back clear "best decks" which you can predictably prepare for while helping give an answer to a lot of the random, inconsistent "oops I win" decks in the lower tiers. I'm probably looking through this with Twin-colored glasses, but I've also not found a deck I liked to play for the past six months, so it's probably just whimsical thinking.
I am in the same boat, Modern just isn't for me, since all I care about is winning and the only decks I like to play, WOTC bans because they are "too good". The format is not a good for proving who is better at Magic, but rather it's a format that allows you to use your collection to play Magic that doesn't have an upkeep cost like Standard. I'm having trouble figuring out what Modern deck to play for the PPTQ season because every deck "loses to something out of your control". I hate that quality in any of the decks I play in a tournament. And don't drop the Jund argument because "game against everything" is not the same as "beats everything". You need a deck that "beats everything" to spike a big tournament.
If a deck beats everything, then everyone plays it. If everyone plays it, it doesnt beat everything anymore since it doesn't beat the mirror. Therefore you end up with either a skill based mirror (caw blade) or a luck based mirror (eldrazi) both of which take things out of your control. Skill based because face it, if you arent able to succeed in modern with the current tools, your skill is lacking (how many modern opens has hoogland t32d in a row now?) and luck based mirrors are just that, luck based
Well how do you succeed in the current Modern? I can't beat Soul Sisters with Burn. Do I need to Jared Boettcher my opponent's deck? Do I need to Fabrizio Anteri my deck? The only solution I can come up with is cheat or play a different deck, which is the case with all the decks I've tested in the Modern format. Since you're clearly saying I'm lacking skill, you obviously believe you are a better player than me, so how do you beat your unwinnable matchups? I clearly should have started cheating against Tron players who always have turn 3 Karn every game when I play Jund. Notice a pattern here? Outside of monopolizing a certain deck in my area, I can't eliminate bad matchups in Modern.
Simple. Pick a deck you really like, pref a deck in tier 1-2 so you know it has the capability of being successful. Master it. Tune it to your meta. Change your sideboard AND mainboard for your bad matchups that are local. Notice theres no affinity local to you? Take that stony silence out of there already! If you show up week to week with the same 75, you will lose to the smarter players who are adjusting their lists weekly. If your deck is properly tuned to your local meta, you will do equally well at your local pptq's and whatever. If you are above pptq's, then you wouldnt be in this thread complaining that you cant throw money at a wall and end up with a 100% win rate
There is a problem with the deck selection, none of the tier 1-2 decks have a proven win percentage that I am happy with. My local metagame is so diverse, a 30 card sideboard isn't enough to cover all my matchups.
I am in the same boat, Modern just isn't for me, since all I care about is winning and the only decks I like to play, WOTC bans because they are "too good". The format is not a good for proving who is better at Magic, but rather it's a format that allows you to use your collection to play Magic that doesn't have an upkeep cost like Standard. I'm having trouble figuring out what Modern deck to play for the PPTQ season because every deck "loses to something out of your control". I hate that quality in any of the decks I play in a tournament. And don't drop the Jund argument because "game against everything" is not the same as "beats everything". You need a deck that "beats everything" to spike a big tournament.
If a deck beats everything, then everyone plays it. If everyone plays it, it doesnt beat everything anymore since it doesn't beat the mirror. Therefore you end up with either a skill based mirror (caw blade) or a luck based mirror (eldrazi) both of which take things out of your control. Skill based because face it, if you arent able to succeed in modern with the current tools, your skill is lacking (how many modern opens has hoogland t32d in a row now?) and luck based mirrors are just that, luck based
Well how do you succeed in the current Modern? I can't beat Soul Sisters with Burn. Do I need to Jared Boettcher my opponent's deck? Do I need to Fabrizio Anteri my deck? The only solution I can come up with is cheat or play a different deck, which is the case with all the decks I've tested in the Modern format. Since you're clearly saying I'm lacking skill, you obviously believe you are a better player than me, so how do you beat your unwinnable matchups? I clearly should have started cheating against Tron players who always have turn 3 Karn every game when I play Jund. Notice a pattern here? Outside of monopolizing a certain deck in my area, I can't eliminate bad matchups in Modern.
Simple. Pick a deck you really like, pref a deck in tier 1-2 so you know it has the capability of being successful. Master it. Tune it to your meta. Change your sideboard AND mainboard for your bad matchups that are local. Notice theres no affinity local to you? Take that stony silence out of there already! If you show up week to week with the same 75, you will lose to the smarter players who are adjusting their lists weekly. If your deck is properly tuned to your local meta, you will do equally well at your local pptq's and whatever. If you are above pptq's, then you wouldnt be in this thread complaining that you cant throw money at a wall and end up with a 100% win rate
There is a problem with the deck selection, none of the tier 1-2 decks have a proven win percentage that I am happy with. My local metagame is so diverse, a 30 card sideboard isn't enough to cover all my matchups.
If your not happy with the win percentage of moderns current tier 1 decks (50-60%) then magoc isnt the game for you, sorry.
There are not 30 different angles of attacks on you in modern. 75 cards is more than enough to build something that has game against your meta
Edit: i dont even feel like your complaints are caused by the ban lisy or could be fixed by it, i feel like you inherently dislike modern and have actually seen you do nothing but complain about it since before the twin ban in these threads. Do you have a suggestion to "fix" modern or do you just come here to complain?
If a deck beats everything, then everyone plays it. If everyone plays it, it doesnt beat everything anymore since it doesn't beat the mirror. Therefore you end up with either a skill based mirror (caw blade) or a luck based mirror (eldrazi) both of which take things out of your control. Skill based because face it, if you arent able to succeed in modern with the current tools, your skill is lacking (how many modern opens has hoogland t32d in a row now?) and luck based mirrors are just that, luck based
Well how do you succeed in the current Modern? I can't beat Soul Sisters with Burn. Do I need to Jared Boettcher my opponent's deck? Do I need to Fabrizio Anteri my deck? The only solution I can come up with is cheat or play a different deck, which is the case with all the decks I've tested in the Modern format. Since you're clearly saying I'm lacking skill, you obviously believe you are a better player than me, so how do you beat your unwinnable matchups? I clearly should have started cheating against Tron players who always have turn 3 Karn every game when I play Jund. Notice a pattern here? Outside of monopolizing a certain deck in my area, I can't eliminate bad matchups in Modern.
Simple. Pick a deck you really like, pref a deck in tier 1-2 so you know it has the capability of being successful. Master it. Tune it to your meta. Change your sideboard AND mainboard for your bad matchups that are local. Notice theres no affinity local to you? Take that stony silence out of there already! If you show up week to week with the same 75, you will lose to the smarter players who are adjusting their lists weekly. If your deck is properly tuned to your local meta, you will do equally well at your local pptq's and whatever. If you are above pptq's, then you wouldnt be in this thread complaining that you cant throw money at a wall and end up with a 100% win rate
There is a problem with the deck selection, none of the tier 1-2 decks have a proven win percentage that I am happy with. My local metagame is so diverse, a 30 card sideboard isn't enough to cover all my matchups.
If your not happy with the win percentage of moderns current tier 1 decks (50-60%) then magoc isnt the game for you, sorry.
There are not 30 different angles of attacks on you in modern. 75 cards is more than enough to build something that has game against your meta
Yep. If all you play for is lucrative EVs then you should be playing another format or game, at LEAST not modern. Good players ARE largely EV positive though, even in modern. If you insist on competing in Magic for profit then you should be focused on Draft (most) and Standard (second most). I just don't understand people who continue to come into this thread (or on reddit) and insist that they should be able to be 55%+ with any deck. It's silly. This format isn't set up like that, so don't play.
Well how do you succeed in the current Modern? I can't beat Soul Sisters with Burn. Do I need to Jared Boettcher my opponent's deck? Do I need to Fabrizio Anteri my deck? The only solution I can come up with is cheat or play a different deck, which is the case with all the decks I've tested in the Modern format. Since you're clearly saying I'm lacking skill, you obviously believe you are a better player than me, so how do you beat your unwinnable matchups? I clearly should have started cheating against Tron players who always have turn 3 Karn every game when I play Jund. Notice a pattern here? Outside of monopolizing a certain deck in my area, I can't eliminate bad matchups in Modern.
Simple. Pick a deck you really like, pref a deck in tier 1-2 so you know it has the capability of being successful. Master it. Tune it to your meta. Change your sideboard AND mainboard for your bad matchups that are local. Notice theres no affinity local to you? Take that stony silence out of there already! If you show up week to week with the same 75, you will lose to the smarter players who are adjusting their lists weekly. If your deck is properly tuned to your local meta, you will do equally well at your local pptq's and whatever. If you are above pptq's, then you wouldnt be in this thread complaining that you cant throw money at a wall and end up with a 100% win rate
There is a problem with the deck selection, none of the tier 1-2 decks have a proven win percentage that I am happy with. My local metagame is so diverse, a 30 card sideboard isn't enough to cover all my matchups.
If your not happy with the win percentage of moderns current tier 1 decks (50-60%) then magoc isnt the game for you, sorry.
There are not 30 different angles of attacks on you in modern. 75 cards is more than enough to build something that has game against your meta
Yep. If all you play for is lucrative EVs then you should be playing another format or game, at LEAST not modern. Good players ARE largely EV positive though, even in modern. If you insist on competing in Magic for profit then you should be focused on Draft (most) and Standard (second most). I just don't understand people who continue to come into this thread (or on reddit) and insist that they should be able to be 55%+ with any deck. It's silly. This format isn't set up like that, so don't play.
No format is truly set up like that. The game isnt inherently set up like that. If they wanted to make the game 100% skill based they would give everyone the same 75 in a tournament, allow people to stack their decks, and allow more than 4x copies per deck. Achieving above 55% is inherently difficult in a game where at least 15% of games are won or lost to the top of the deck instead of individual skill inherently takes this away
We got to the point where no deck can have a 50-50 or even 40-60 against all decks.
Either its going to be tron or something like infect or a combo deck that will give you an unwinnable matchup in a region of 30-70.
Just accept it and move on.
My decks were almost always losing or lose to tron. 2 stony silence and 4 fulminators will deplete your sideboard and i am still losing. I accepted it and move on.
There are 30 other different angles of attack and i can manage all the other ones if i just concede to tron in a diverse meta so that what i am doing.
When the tron players sits across me i know the resulta and this is frustrating.
Sadly or not, you have to give people a ramp deck to toy with if they want to players one.
Eldrazi were banned, bloom was banned, there is really nothing else.
Modern is not the format where the best players will win most of the times because even reid duke will fall to a mediocre tron This if he s on Jund. (Only chapin was winning that xD).
But it is one that an inexperienced player on a budget deck with fatties can do 4-0 at a local tour.
Legacy is another story. You cannot win miracles if u re on a budget nic for for example.
Standard is more of a format for a dominant deck in gw decks.
I dont know the solution to all of this.
There doesnt need to be a solution to this, if tron is the one bad matchup you face in a 4 round local event, you end up going 3-1. That is a 75% win rate. If your upset with a 75% win rate, you shouldnt be doing anything competitive, especially not a game based on variance
If your losing more than this, you either need to get better, tune your deck, or perhaps just switch your deck
If your facing tron more than once consistently locally, you really need to sit down and think about what you care more about, winning or your pet deck
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StaffNo changes to any format.
Next B&R Announcement:
January 16, 2017
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Welcome to the Modern banlist discussion! Here, you can discuss everything related to the banlist, from questioning the possibility of unbans to recent announcements of new bannings.
Please follow a few simple rules while you are here.
- All MTGS forum rules and Modern subforum rules apply here. For example, if you see a user flaming, spamming, or trolling, please report him/her instead of responding to it.
- All posts MUST relate directly to the banlist, bans, unbans, and/or banlist policy. Comments about other Modern issues, grievances, or topics will be treated as spam.
- It is okay to discuss Legacy only if it is related to Modern bans and unbans.
- Discussion about dramatically increasing the size of the banlist by more than 2-3 cards is not allowed. In the past, this sort of discussion has derailed the thread into completely unconstructive debate. There is a fine line between approved ban discussion (e.g. cards that are consistently breaking the turn 4 rule in top tier decks, or cards that make oppressive top tier decks) and spammy, prohibited discussion (e.g. banning Immolating Souleater and Fling because they theoretically break the turn 4 rule). If you see someone doing this, report them instead of responding to it. If you have a question about this, feel free to get in touch with staff to ask.
- Do not discuss the "death of Modern" or generally claim that it is dying.
- Do not discuss reprints of new cards or card design. We have other threads for both topics.
- Defining archetypes (e.g. "What is control?" "Does Modern have true control?") is only okay if it directly relates to unbans and bans. For example, if your post doesn't reference a card like Ancestral Vision, it won't be okay.
Remember, this is a place to discuss, and have fun. Keep it civil and keep your posts constructive.------------------------------------------------------------------
- Current DCI Modern Banned List
- Ancient Den
- Birthing Pod
- Blazing Shoal
- Bloodbraid Elf
- Chrome Mox
- Cloudpost
- Dark Depths
- Deathrite Shaman
- Dig Through Time
- Dread Return
- Eye of Ugin
- Glimpse of Nature
- Great Furnace
- Green Sun's Zenith
- Hypergenesis
- Jace, the Mind Sculptor
- Mental Misstep
- Ponder
- Preordain
- Punishing Fire
- Rite of Flame
- Seat of the Synod
- Second Sunrise
- Sensei's Divining Top
- Seething Song
- Splinter Twin
- Stoneforge Mystic
- Summer Bloom
- Skullclamp
- Treasure Cruise
- Tree of Tales
- Umezawa's Jitte
- Vault of Whispers
------------------------------------------------------------------Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
- Some cards enable a top tier deck to consistently win on turn 3 or earlier. Because this violates the "turn 4" rule of the format, the following cards have been banned:
- Ancient Den
- Blazing Shoal
- Chrome Mox
- Dark Depths
- Dread Return
- Glimpse of Nature
- Great Furnace
- Hypergenesis
- Seat of the Synod
- Summer Bloom
- Tree of Tales
- Vault of Whispers
- Other cards have been banned because they make certain decks too consistent/reliable and thus stagnate the format. Here are some examples of these cards:
- Cloudpost
- Deathrite Shaman
- Eye of Ugin
- Green Sun's Zenith
- Jace, the Mind Sculptor
- Mental Misstep
- Ponder
- Preordain
- Punishing Fire
- Rite of Flame
- Splinter Twin
- Stoneforge Mystic
- Umezawa's Jitte
- Some cards, currently only one, are banned because they were just mistakes. This card is one of the most broken cards of all time and has been banned in almost every format where it was or is legal:
- Finally, there are some cards that were banned for logistical reasons. These cards made tournaments last too long and were banned to make events run smoother. They were not necessarily banned for power reasons.
------------------------------------------------------------------Skullclamp
Sensei's Divining Top
Second Sunrise
The following are links to WotC's in-depth explanations as to why cards have gotten banned since the beginning of the format:
Eye of Ugin banned, Ancestral Vision and Sword of the Meek unbanned
Summer Bloom and Splinter Twin banned.
Birthing Pod/Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time banned, Golgari Grave-Troll unbanned
Bitterblossom/Nacatl unbanned. DRS banned
Addition of Second Sunrise
Addition of Bloodbraid Elf and Seething Song
Removal of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3rd Banned List change with explanations
2nd Banned List change with explanations
1st Banned List change with explanations
Community Cup Announcement with the Initial Ban List.
------------------------------------------------------------------
Old threads:
4/4/2016 - 7/18/2016
1/16/2016 - 4/4/2016
7/13/2015 - 1/16/2016
1/19/2015 - 7/13/2015
7/14/2014 - 1/19/2015
2/9/2014 - 7/14/2014
1/20/2014 - 2/10/2014
6/23/2014 - 1/20/2014
4/22/2013 - 6/23/213
1/27/2013 - 4/22/13
9/20/2012 - 1/27/2013
7/19/2012 - 9/20/2012
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
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StaffFor those of you who are wondering where the old thread went if you want to go back and read it then you can look here.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
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Big Johnny.
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Staffsimian spirit guide only really exists to push the speed rules in modern. The day that banning it doesn't make Ad Nauseum go away as a deck is probably the day it hits the short list to get the axe.
goryo's vengeance is not broken now, but I can envision a future in which some other consistency tool gets printed to push the deck hard enough to be unfair.
Looking long term, I can see deathrite shaman and dig through time or preordain getting the wild nacatl treatment.
Otherwise, ban list looks reasonably stable for the time being and I hope to see no major changes for a good long while. Other cards could eventually come off the banned list, especially the more expensive (mana cost wise) ones, but I don't forsee that happening with the current state of Magic Design and powerlevel, as WOTC would want to couple those unbans with a supply increase.
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Not necessarily. But it would likely bring back clear "best decks" which you can predictably prepare for while helping give an answer to a lot of the random, inconsistent "oops I win" decks in the lower tiers. I'm probably looking through this with Twin-colored glasses, but I've also not found a deck I liked to play for the past six months, so it's probably just whimsical thinking.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I am in the same boat, Modern just isn't for me, since all I care about is winning and the only decks I like to play, WOTC bans because they are "too good". The format is not a good for proving who is better at Magic, but rather it's a format that allows you to use your collection to play Magic that doesn't have an upkeep cost like Standard. I'm having trouble figuring out what Modern deck to play for the PPTQ season because every deck "loses to something out of your control". I hate that quality in any of the decks I play in a tournament. And don't drop the Jund argument because "game against everything" is not the same as "beats everything". You need a deck that "beats everything" to spike a big tournament.
If a deck beats everything, then everyone plays it. If everyone plays it, it doesnt beat everything anymore since it doesn't beat the mirror. Therefore you end up with either a skill based mirror (caw blade) or a luck based mirror (eldrazi) both of which take things out of your control. Skill based because face it, if you arent able to succeed in modern with the current tools, your skill is lacking (how many modern opens has hoogland t32d in a row now?) and luck based mirrors are just that, luck based
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
decks playing:
none
Privileged position you say? I think the main issue with modern isn't something that the ban list can help. The main issue is that there are not many police cards. (majority of them are in jund colors hence it's perma tier 1 status)
Decks I'm playing in Modern right now:
URB Grixis Reveler (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-grixis-reveler/)
UB Faeries (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/ub-fae-2/)
UW Azorious Control (http://www.mtgvault.com/supast4r7/decks/modern-ojutai-control-2/)
Well how do you succeed in the current Modern? I can't beat Soul Sisters with Burn. Do I need to Jared Boettcher my opponent's deck? Do I need to Fabrizio Anteri my deck? The only solution I can come up with is cheat or play a different deck, which is the case with all the decks I've tested in the Modern format. Since you're clearly saying I'm lacking skill, you obviously believe you are a better player than me, so how do you beat your unwinnable matchups? I clearly should have started cheating against Tron players who always have turn 3 Karn every game when I play Jund. Notice a pattern here? Outside of monopolizing a certain deck in my area, I can't eliminate bad matchups in Modern.
ok, I actually play Burn and Tron, so I know something about these things. First, Tron does not 'always have t3 Karn', that is the ideal hand for the deck, I would say maybe 1/4 games on a solid day. if it is happening significantly more than that, you are just unlucky, if it happens every time, your opponent IS CHEATING. Tron is not an infinite automatic win combo, but it is a combo deck, and it is geared to do extremely well against midrange decks. as for Sisters, when I sleeve up Burn, I don't worry about fringe playable decks, which that is. in either one, if that is a huge part of your meta, SB harder. if you actually want to eliminate bad matchups entirely and have every game come down to skill, it is actually very simple 1) sell your cards 2) walk away 3) buy a nice chess set. I really hate being an ass, but no format will have a deck with no bad MU's for long. Eldrazi was just a few months ago, wasthat fun for you? because that is what it looks like.
alternately, if you think that your skill is on a level where you deserve to do well, go design a deck that does well against everything. my suggestion is a control base with 15anti-'every flavor of aggro' cards in the SB. the players who can't accept bad matchups are vastly outnumbered by the people who want diversity, Wizardswill always cater to the more profitable group
Eldrazi was fun for me, I won a lot of matches of Magic. I punished people who made the mistake of bringing something else to a tournament. The only people that complained about that period of time were the people who didn't have the resources to obtain the deck and the people who were extremely attached to their pet deck. And I never claimed that I was skilled at Magic since it has been pointed out by bfrie that I'm not very good at Magic so I don't know where you got your idea of my skill level from.
Simple. Pick a deck you really like, pref a deck in tier 1-2 so you know it has the capability of being successful. Master it. Tune it to your meta. Change your sideboard AND mainboard for your bad matchups that are local. Notice theres no affinity local to you? Take that stony silence out of there already! If you show up week to week with the same 75, you will lose to the smarter players who are adjusting their lists weekly. If your deck is properly tuned to your local meta, you will do equally well at your local pptq's and whatever. If you are above pptq's, then you wouldnt be in this thread complaining that you cant throw money at a wall and end up with a 100% win rate
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
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StaffI don't think that they'll unban twin so quickly after banning the card, I'd be fine with unbanning it but not now
I think that's why I love modern right now, its so wide open and there's no true "best deck"
There is a problem with the deck selection, none of the tier 1-2 decks have a proven win percentage that I am happy with. My local metagame is so diverse, a 30 card sideboard isn't enough to cover all my matchups.
If your not happy with the win percentage of moderns current tier 1 decks (50-60%) then magoc isnt the game for you, sorry.
There are not 30 different angles of attacks on you in modern. 75 cards is more than enough to build something that has game against your meta
Edit: i dont even feel like your complaints are caused by the ban lisy or could be fixed by it, i feel like you inherently dislike modern and have actually seen you do nothing but complain about it since before the twin ban in these threads. Do you have a suggestion to "fix" modern or do you just come here to complain?
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Yep. If all you play for is lucrative EVs then you should be playing another format or game, at LEAST not modern. Good players ARE largely EV positive though, even in modern. If you insist on competing in Magic for profit then you should be focused on Draft (most) and Standard (second most). I just don't understand people who continue to come into this thread (or on reddit) and insist that they should be able to be 55%+ with any deck. It's silly. This format isn't set up like that, so don't play.
No format is truly set up like that. The game isnt inherently set up like that. If they wanted to make the game 100% skill based they would give everyone the same 75 in a tournament, allow people to stack their decks, and allow more than 4x copies per deck. Achieving above 55% is inherently difficult in a game where at least 15% of games are won or lost to the top of the deck instead of individual skill inherently takes this away
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
There doesnt need to be a solution to this, if tron is the one bad matchup you face in a 4 round local event, you end up going 3-1. That is a 75% win rate. If your upset with a 75% win rate, you shouldnt be doing anything competitive, especially not a game based on variance
If your losing more than this, you either need to get better, tune your deck, or perhaps just switch your deck
If your facing tron more than once consistently locally, you really need to sit down and think about what you care more about, winning or your pet deck
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR