I absolutely agree here. People tend to ignore that the format wasn't simply just because of a "broken" Modern deck but people with a solid draft record too. MJ from Twitch who was playing the Eldrazi deck went 8-8 which placed him tied for last... The tournament had decks that barely missed run others that were not Eldrazi!
I also saw the matches, the eldrazi deck overrun anything in front of them, even affinity. If you see the deck in action you see its broken.. thats all, anyway look magic online results, i have the suspicious that the eldrazis have conquered modern, not only zendikar...
Ban the temple, restringe the eye to one copy, and the eldrazi decks are out and tron is happy.
But you also kill the fair Eldrazi decks (like the Bx variants). Folks love to hop on the Painters Servant bandwagon but why not bring back in Torpor Orbs? They shut down TKS and Mimic triggers. This could slow them down enough to let you handle their threats. It's still vulnerable to them dumping a bunch of Mimics and Endless Ones for free but thems the kicks with a lot of decks and their nut draws.
What I want to know is where on earth everyone's "concern" for the Eldrazi decks suddenly came from? Eldrazi were a fringe thing before OGW, and people don't whine when 98% of cards from a Standard legal set are completely irrelevant to Modern, but now all of a sudden a fair percentage of people are saying "But think about X/Y/Z Eldrazi decks?"...I'm not sure I get it.
I absolutely agree here. People tend to ignore that the format wasn't simply just because of a "broken" Modern deck but people with a solid draft record too. MJ from Twitch who was playing the Eldrazi deck went 8-8 which placed him tied for last... The tournament had decks that barely missed run others that were not Eldrazi!
I also saw the matches, the eldrazi deck overrun anything in front of them, even affinity. If you see the deck in action you see its broken.. thats all, anyway look magic online results, i have the suspicious that the eldrazis have conquered modern, not only zendikar...
Ban the temple, restringe the eye to one copy, and the eldrazi decks are out and tron is happy.
But you also kill the fair Eldrazi decks (like the Bx variants). Folks love to hop on the Painters Servant bandwagon but why not bring back in Torpor Orbs? They shut down TKS and Mimic triggers. This could slow them down enough to let you handle their threats. It's still vulnerable to them dumping a bunch of Mimics and Endless Ones for free but thems the kicks with a lot of decks and their nut draws.
What I want to know is where on earth everyone's "concern" for the Eldrazi decks suddenly came from? Eldrazi were a fringe thing before OGW, and people don't whine when 98% of cards from a Standard legal set are completely irrelevant to Modern, but now all of a sudden a fair percentage of people are saying "But think about X/Y/Z Eldrazi decks?"...I'm not sure I get it.
Because the pre-OGW Eldrazi decks were strong but fair. The colorless Eldrazi deck might be too powerful but if you go overboard by banning EVERYTHING (for folks suggesting Eye, Temple, TKS, Reality Smasher and Mimic), you are removing those other decks for no reason (it'd have been like banning Rhino with Pod). The other variants are very fair and should be maintained if we can.
Mimic is the biggest problem IMO. It is free off of the eye and a 2/1 for 1 with a temple, allowing it to always come down early. It gets pumped for massive amounts for simply playing the game of magic with colorless creatures. Most of the other cards don't do the broken things this card can do. Mimic allows for the turn 3 kills and such, getting rid of this card would only limit the aggressiveness of the arch type and slow it down with the rest of the format, allowing Eldrazi to still be viable, but able to be side boarded against. The deck right now can just attack from too many directions.
Mimic is the biggest problem IMO. It is free off of the eye and a 2/1 for 1 with a temple, allowing it to always come down early. It gets pumped for massive amounts for simply playing the game of magic with colorless creatures. Most of the other cards don't do the broken things this card can do. Mimic allows for the turn 3 kills and such, getting rid of this card would only limit the aggressiveness of the arch type and slow it down with the rest of the format, allowing Eldrazi to still be viable, but able to be side boarded against. The deck right now can just attack from too many directions.
The more I think the more my view is the same. Mimic and maybe Endless one should go and leave a very strong Eldrazi deck that is not so broken on turn 2 and 3
It would only make sense to me if they aren't going to print cheap Eldrazi anytime again in the near future. If they plan on keeping them around (say for story reasons), then Eye of Ugin just becomes a larger risk. Who knows though.
The trick is that they can't both run Warping wail and Chalice of the Void at the same time if they are trying to stop Painter's Servant. The chalice would counter their own answer to the servant and the colorless version of Nameless Inversion is exactly the same. So by running one card, you've already screwed them indirectly on another. Playing sideboard isn't measured counter to counter, it's how well you play poker. Wink
Wtf? if they put a calice in 2, they dont care about playing the warping because you cant play the servant, if you play the servant they wont play the calice before dismembering or warping it, anyway the most commond situation is that they just discart it from your hand in turn 2.
I argue it many times, but one more:
Servant to be usefull you have to drop it in turn 2, (if you are on the draw its too slow), assuming that they dont discart it from your hand (wich happens a lot, at least during my testings). In the late game, if you survive of course, its a dead draw.
So you have to cast it in turn 2, how many copies in your sb? how does servant help vs any other deck? are you gonna use 4 spaces in a card that is useless vs any other deck and narrow good ( because it only will slow his game plan) vs the eldrazzis? no thanks.. and if the servant become popular they will increase the lighting bolt number plus dismembers just in case.
servant is not a good answer...
The point is that chalice is XX which means they need to pay 4 to make it counter a 2 cost spell. If you get painter out on turn 2 it's too late to play chalice to stop it. So if the other player thinks you are playing servant they will most likely swap out chalice for warping wail unless they suspect it would be a bad trade up and ignore the fact you have it anyway. It's not a super good solution, but painters servant is still not as bad as people are making it out to be on the forums. That's all I'm trying to say.
The assumption is that they have to make an either / or choice on chalice vs other solutions. If they run both solutions in the deck the entire plan falls flat.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Even if they ban one land, mimic allows a turn 3 20 damage attack:
temple mimic
temple mimic mimic
land smasher
eye mimic mimic mimic
urborg whatever you want to play
colorless land smasher
eye mimic mimic mimic
colorless land ssg ssg smasher 20 damage on turn 2
It would be rare to have these hand, but still... In my opinion is mimic the broken card for sure
It's an extreme case, but yeah that would do it. Are there any other cards other than smasher that they could do it with at that cmc?
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Even if they ban one land, mimic allows a turn 3 20 damage attack:
temple mimic
temple mimic mimic
land smasher
eye mimic mimic mimic
urborg whatever you want to play
colorless land smasher
eye mimic mimic mimic
colorless land ssg ssg smasher 20 damage on turn 2
It would be rare to have these hand, but still... In my opinion is mimic the broken card for sure
It's an extreme case, but yeah that would do it. Are there any other cards other than smasher that they could do it with at that cmc?
Eye mimic mimic mimic
Urborg endless one swing for 9
Colorless land thought knot swing for 18
Yeah I was thinking Thought Knot comboed with it to do 20+, but I think it only works if they have a lot of mimics in play. It's a possible turn 3 win that is for sure, and taking away mimic would probably solve the explosive early game damage issue. Having Thought-knot seer and reality smasher alone doesn't seem to be that broken when I look at it since they will show up early, but they are only 8 out of the many cards a player would be using in their deck.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Thought-knot is the best eldrazi in my opinion but a fair card; I don't think seer followed by smasher is a so common play. Smasher is good but not game ending; and it's not so good if oppo has many creatures in play. It's good with mimic because mimic is a trouble, it can end the game in any moment. Endless one can be killed by abrupt decay and many other cards.. I agree that without mimic the deck is less less explosive
Thought-knot is the best eldrazi in my opinion but a fair card; I don't think seer followed by smasher is a so common play. Smasher is good but not game ending; and it's not so good if oppo has many creatures in play. It's good with mimic because mimic is a trouble, it can end the game in any moment. Endless one can be killed by abrupt decay and many other cards.. I agree that without mimic the deck is less less explosive
TKS is fair on turn 4. Not on turn 2.
"Fair" is loose. The card is pushed even on T4, to be honest. A very efficient creature on curve. Insanity on T2.
Thought-knot is the best eldrazi in my opinion but a fair card; I don't think seer followed by smasher is a so common play. Smasher is good but not game ending; and it's not so good if oppo has many creatures in play. It's good with mimic because mimic is a trouble, it can end the game in any moment. Endless one can be killed by abrupt decay and many other cards.. I agree that without mimic the deck is less less explosive
TKS is fair on turn 4. Not on turn 2.
I played it many times on turn 2 with processor list and in many games I didn't win. You take out a card but without mimic you are not in a situation where to take out a card means to take out the one card that let the opponent answers in order to not lose. You simply take out a card, then seer can be blocked or killed pretty easily. The fact is that if you have 2 mimics in game and a seer, you had that one vital card taken out off your hand and you have to face mimic or a possible smasher first, so you leave a 4/4 body in play on turn 2. In this situation seer is not fair; it's fair in a game where mimic doesn't exist
4/4's are easily killed as well by other midgame threats already being run (Gofy, Tasigur, Angler, Rhino, etc). I'd say I can cast it on T3 on average in the fair processor lists and sure it is really good, it by no means is unbeatable. Same goes for Reality Smasher. He is very good but folks take the 2 for 1 and kill it (much like Siege Rhino if you count the Helix effect as part of that "2 for 1"). He can also be abused by decks running Smiter and Leige. At Regionals, there were several Coco Naya lists running around the top tables because they had answers to the Eldrazi decks and a good endgame.
in the past years wizard also ban standard legal cards: shaman and Treasure Cruise for example..
Now is too soon to talk about ban, but shaman was banned because jund maked 5 or 6 decks in a gp top 8 (but the gp was winned by melira..), also melira was banned because after the shaman ban and rhino print maked multiple top 8 in large events with lots of decks. Twin was banned because win 2 protour.
This deck at the first appearance do 6 on 8 in a protour top8, the other 2 decks was in top 8 for some fortunately pairings, because in one moment was 8 eldrazi in top 8. No jund, no twin, no melira do the same at their first appearance in a tounament like a PT.
So affinity save Wizard, because what can Wotc say if 8 eldrazi come in top 8 after 20 days ago they ban twin "for to safeguard the variety of the format"?
Ok, this is the first event, but were is the variety? in the choice colorless or UR? Possible that when they tried the new cards before releasing them, nobody see that the interaction: overpowered colorless creature + eldrazi temple + eye of ugin was insane? I cant belive this, specially after the spoiler of LSV on the twin ban. CFB team build and try this deck not in the last 20 days after the twin ban, but probaly they work on this decks for months sure of the ban of twin. And i say this also whatching the Reid Duke jund list, he has tech for the colorless eldrazi mu to pump a goyf for deal aginst reality smasher. For me this mean that for sure the CFB team know about the ban of twin before the ban, because colorless has no card for twin and the strategy of the deck is for not have interaction with twin. How is it possible? They can't create this deck before the full spoiler of OTG in december when twin was legal and NOBODY expecting the ban. And i dont' think that a pro players team in december build a deck for the protour of February with a strategy that just loose from a tier1 like twin and also i don't think that they create this deck on 19th January and star testing it from the 20th. Dont kidding me!
Imho this PT was the biggest marketing operation of Wizard history (hey little boy now you can win a modern pro tour with your standard deck + 10 old cards like the pro players!), but the lowest point of competitive magic play. And probably, after selling a lot o OTG booster they say " we must safeguard the variety of the format so eye of ugin is now banned"
my two cents
Agree on every word.
Deck variety and diversity my baloth's bottoms! Greed is destroys formats, not decks or cards.
Ill just say this.. if you check the modern portion of the PT, you will see that there was a lot of different decks at 9-1 (not just a bunch of eldrazi). Unfortunately the draft portion had eschewed the results even more, since a lot of top pros were playing eldrazi and a lot of people with 8-2 or better in modern portion (that werent eldrazi)had bad draft records which threw them out of the top 8. If you complain, complain about it looking at the full picture, not just what you want to see..
I absolutely agree here. People tend to ignore that the format wasn't simply just because of a "broken" Modern deck but people with a solid draft record too. MJ from Twitch who was playing the Eldrazi deck went 8-8 which placed him tied for last... The tournament had decks that barely missed run others that were not Eldrazi!
One Eldrazi deck losing to another Eldrazi deck does not make Eldrazi a fair deck.
there's a rule that says that they cannot restringe a card in modern? why not? just because they haven't done it yet? it can bring balance to the force
Because the concept of a "restricted" list is reserved for Vintage only. No other format has a restricted list; they all have ban lists.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
The fact is only one: bw processor eldrazi is a fair deck been played ( mostly online ) since December and it didn't really overpowered any deck, but it ran the same lands as the colorless and it also played smasher and thought knot seer, I tested a lot with the deck since mid January with seer and smasher in and it was fair. So this means that some other creatures or sinergies in the colorless shell are broken. Do we want always the same decks rotating in modern or at least do we want a 1 more fair deck that can be a tier 2 or a tier 1.5 ( eldrazi processors )? Banning even a land alone means the death of that fair deck. So let's ban the early creatures of the colorless deck; without those early creatures the deck cannot be no longer relay on being explosive and it will take the midrange way that is the fair one
There are 5 cards that make both the colorless and UR versions tick. Eye, Temple, TKS, Smasher, and Mimic. Without mimic the B version is slower and has fewer "nut draws." But that doesn't mean you can't add it and have a crazy B Eldrazi deck.
I jumped on the Eldrazi wagon, but to be fair I personally don't see a Land being hit here given what it can do to effect other decks. I wouldn't mind seeing SSG going as it'll null Chalice, and I think it's that which causes a ton of issue. Overall though, I think this whole "Eldrazi" mess people are creating is a cover for what truly is killing Modern and that is the lack of diversity and strain away from what truly colors are.
The Two versions are completely different and players play b/bw processor because it's fun and plays like jund. I know colorless is far more strong but I won't play it, I love processor list and worked hard to it, I loved to find I way to fight against burn merfolks tron and affinity while it lose to them even now after all, I don't care. You all must understand that many people worked hard together to have a fair deck playing good, and now it's sad to see that degenerate boring deck menacing all the work we processor player have done on the deck for a possible ban. This is what I cannot understand; and this is why I'm saying "let's ban mimic, and if it's not enough let's ban seer or smasher together with mimic". Because the processor list can survive a ban of them, but I don't think it will survive a land ban, it doesn't really have a early game, only stranglers and lingering souls
100% with you there. I like the BW Processor build because it's a midrange deck like Junk that doesn't require Liliana and Goyf to be good. I think we COULD survive a ban on one of the lands but we'd probably be relegated to tier 2 for eternity.
Because the concept of a "restricted" list is reserved for Vintage only. No other format has a restricted list; they all have ban lists.
You don't answer the question.
"Because that's the way it is" is never a reasonable answer.
The answer is because restricted lists don't work. They make things inconsistent, they don't solve the problem. When things become inconsistent it makes the problem worse because now you can't safely devote sideboard slots to it. Then each deck slowly amasses these piles of restricted cards that win the game, that can't really be answered. It creates a bunch of unanswerable auto win situations for everyone and that's not good. Outright bans are a much cleaner solution.
Because the concept of a "restricted" list is reserved for Vintage only. No other format has a restricted list; they all have ban lists.
You don't answer the question.
"Because that's the way it is" is never a reasonable answer.
The answer is because restricted lists don't work. They make things inconsistent, they don't solve the problem. When things become inconsistent it makes the problem worse because now you can't safely devote sideboard slots to it. Then each deck slowly amasses these piles of restricted cards that win the game, that can't really be answered. It creates a bunch of unanswerable auto win situations for everyone and that's not good. Outright bans are a much cleaner solution.
The way we used to play, 20 years ago, is that we thought the restricted list was such that you could only play 5 restricted cards in your deck list. This was a lot of fun because you had to make choices and couldn't just make a 60 card broken highlander deck and call it a day like you can in todays vintage.
The Two versions are completely different and players play b/bw processor because it's fun and plays like jund. I know colorless is far more strong but I won't play it, I love processor list and worked hard to it, I loved to find I way to fight against burn merfolks tron and affinity while it lose to them even now after all, I don't care. You all must understand that many people worked hard together to have a fair deck playing good, and now it's sad to see that degenerate boring deck menacing all the work we processor player have done on the deck for a possible ban. This is what I cannot understand; and this is why I'm saying "let's ban mimic, and if it's not enough let's ban seer or smasher together with mimic". Because the processor list can survive a ban of them, but I don't think it will survive a land ban, it doesn't really have a early game, only stranglers and lingering souls
With something this powerful you have to ban the engine. Mimic is far too replaceable. Eye of Ugin when paired with lower costed Eldrazi simply breaks the game in half. The next block will have Eldrazi too. Banning Mimic would mean Eye can still be abused and they'll have to start worrying about design space with future Eldrazi printings. Banning Eye simply fixes everything.
I think it's insane that some people are calling Mimic the real problem. The card is clearly less good than another famous 2 drop, namely Tarmogoyf. It's the fact that it comes down for free that is the problem. Eye of Ugin needs to go.
Exactly. Mimic, neither TKS or Reality Smasher aren't the problem but fast mana that enables to play them so fast are the problem (Eye of Ugin). Reality Smasher is good but it's big difference if it hits the battlefield on turn 2 or on turn 5, same goes to TKS - definitely a good card in any case but turn 4 TKS is much less problematic than turn 2 TKS is. There's no point in banning Mimic as some people want but if the ban happens the only reasonable choice is Eye of Ugin (possibly along with Eldrazi Temple).
The problem is that you need fast mana to play the larger eldrazi in the set like Ulamog or Kozilek. Otherwise they come out far too late without some kind of ridiculous ramping.
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1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
The Two versions are completely different and players play b/bw processor because it's fun and plays like jund. I know colorless is far more strong but I won't play it, I love processor list and worked hard to it, I loved to find I way to fight against burn merfolks tron and affinity while it lose to them even now after all, I don't care. You all must understand that many people worked hard together to have a fair deck playing good, and now it's sad to see that degenerate boring deck menacing all the work we processor player have done on the deck for a possible ban. This is what I cannot understand; and this is why I'm saying "let's ban mimic, and if it's not enough let's ban seer or smasher together with mimic". Because the processor list can survive a ban of them, but I don't think it will survive a land ban, it doesn't really have a early game, only stranglers and lingering souls
With something this powerful you have to ban the engine. Mimic is far too replaceable. Eye of Ugin when paired with lower costed Eldrazi simply breaks the game in half.
Replaceable with...?
The future printings I mentioned (and you chose not to quote). It's all about design space. Banning Eye lets them explore the colorless eldrazi creature space without worrying about further damaging Modern.
Waspy is right if you seriously think wizards is going to completely change their ban policies and ban the enabled not the enabler you are out of your mind.
Mimic is a perfectly fair card if you pay 2 for it. I'm sorry that your deck is going to get splash damage but I'm sure there were plenty of people using black lotus to get out gray ogres or wooly mammoths, you always ban the engine its not wizards fault if you weren't breaking the engine as hard.
The Two versions are completely different and players play b/bw processor because it's fun and plays like jund. I know colorless is far more strong but I won't play it, I love processor list and worked hard to it, I loved to find I way to fight against burn merfolks tron and affinity while it lose to them even now after all, I don't care. You all must understand that many people worked hard together to have a fair deck playing good, and now it's sad to see that degenerate boring deck menacing all the work we processor player have done on the deck for a possible ban. This is what I cannot understand; and this is why I'm saying "let's ban mimic, and if it's not enough let's ban seer or smasher together with mimic". Because the processor list can survive a ban of them, but I don't think it will survive a land ban, it doesn't really have a early game, only stranglers and lingering souls
With something this powerful you have to ban the engine. Mimic is far too replaceable. Eye of Ugin when paired with lower costed Eldrazi simply breaks the game in half.
Replaceable with...?
The future printings I mentioned (and you chose not to quote). It's all about design space. Banning Eye lets them explore the colorless eldrazi creature space without worrying about further damaging Modern.
I wouldn't say modern is damaged. It's just in flux. Banning Eye means banning all the nice mechanics they've worked so hard to create. The epic feel of Kozilek's distortions, the weird ingest and process mechanics, a viable stompy deck for modern and legacy while also enabling other non-stompy, ramp flavors, mono-colored and colored versions, etcetera.
Taking out Thought-Knot Seer is enough to weaken Eldrazi. Multiple Eye of Ugin Mimics won't be attacking for 8 on turn 2 with a turn 3 kill if you remove the turn 2 4 drop that disrupts the 3rd turn play of the opponent. Reality Smashers come only a turn later and allow for a turn 4 kill with 2 Mimics. By that time you've had enough time to stop the bleeding by casting one of the many answers (Forked Bolt, Path to Exile, painter's servant, pyroclasm, firespout, Supreme Verdict, Counterspells, Remand to prevent mimic from switching, etc)
Give it a rest, people gave you perfectly viable and likely reasons why Eye's getting banned
I'm not surprised it will get banned, but it would be a mistake to base it on (a) tournament evidence of an unadapted meta (b) massively show an unwillingness to try and beat Eldrazi purely because you think it's too strong and you protest against the format.
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What I want to know is where on earth everyone's "concern" for the Eldrazi decks suddenly came from? Eldrazi were a fringe thing before OGW, and people don't whine when 98% of cards from a Standard legal set are completely irrelevant to Modern, but now all of a sudden a fair percentage of people are saying "But think about X/Y/Z Eldrazi decks?"...I'm not sure I get it.
Because the pre-OGW Eldrazi decks were strong but fair. The colorless Eldrazi deck might be too powerful but if you go overboard by banning EVERYTHING (for folks suggesting Eye, Temple, TKS, Reality Smasher and Mimic), you are removing those other decks for no reason (it'd have been like banning Rhino with Pod). The other variants are very fair and should be maintained if we can.
It would only make sense to me if they aren't going to print cheap Eldrazi anytime again in the near future. If they plan on keeping them around (say for story reasons), then Eye of Ugin just becomes a larger risk. Who knows though.
The point is that chalice is XX which means they need to pay 4 to make it counter a 2 cost spell. If you get painter out on turn 2 it's too late to play chalice to stop it. So if the other player thinks you are playing servant they will most likely swap out chalice for warping wail unless they suspect it would be a bad trade up and ignore the fact you have it anyway. It's not a super good solution, but painters servant is still not as bad as people are making it out to be on the forums. That's all I'm trying to say.
The assumption is that they have to make an either / or choice on chalice vs other solutions. If they run both solutions in the deck the entire plan falls flat.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
It's an extreme case, but yeah that would do it. Are there any other cards other than smasher that they could do it with at that cmc?
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Yeah I was thinking Thought Knot comboed with it to do 20+, but I think it only works if they have a lot of mimics in play. It's a possible turn 3 win that is for sure, and taking away mimic would probably solve the explosive early game damage issue. Having Thought-knot seer and reality smasher alone doesn't seem to be that broken when I look at it since they will show up early, but they are only 8 out of the many cards a player would be using in their deck.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
TKS is fair on turn 4. Not on turn 2.
DECKS:
UB Faeries [Midrange/Tempo]
RWUGB Affinity[Aggro]
FAERIES TOO STRONK!!!1111
- Fae Prophecy, 201
5678"Fair" is loose. The card is pushed even on T4, to be honest. A very efficient creature on curve. Insanity on T2.
4/4's are easily killed as well by other midgame threats already being run (Gofy, Tasigur, Angler, Rhino, etc). I'd say I can cast it on T3 on average in the fair processor lists and sure it is really good, it by no means is unbeatable. Same goes for Reality Smasher. He is very good but folks take the 2 for 1 and kill it (much like Siege Rhino if you count the Helix effect as part of that "2 for 1"). He can also be abused by decks running Smiter and Leige. At Regionals, there were several Coco Naya lists running around the top tables because they had answers to the Eldrazi decks and a good endgame.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
100% with you there. I like the BW Processor build because it's a midrange deck like Junk that doesn't require Liliana and Goyf to be good. I think we COULD survive a ban on one of the lands but we'd probably be relegated to tier 2 for eternity.
You don't answer the question.
"Because that's the way it is" is never a reasonable answer.
The answer is because restricted lists don't work. They make things inconsistent, they don't solve the problem. When things become inconsistent it makes the problem worse because now you can't safely devote sideboard slots to it. Then each deck slowly amasses these piles of restricted cards that win the game, that can't really be answered. It creates a bunch of unanswerable auto win situations for everyone and that's not good. Outright bans are a much cleaner solution.
The way we used to play, 20 years ago, is that we thought the restricted list was such that you could only play 5 restricted cards in your deck list. This was a lot of fun because you had to make choices and couldn't just make a 60 card broken highlander deck and call it a day like you can in todays vintage.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
The problem is that you need fast mana to play the larger eldrazi in the set like Ulamog or Kozilek. Otherwise they come out far too late without some kind of ridiculous ramping.
1. (Ravnica Allegiance): You can't keep a good esper control deck down... Or Wilderness Reclamation... or Gates...
2. (War of the Spark): Guys, I know what we need! We need a cycle of really idiotic flavor text victory cards! Jace's Triumph...
3. (War of the Spark): Lets make the format with control have even more control!
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Mimic is a perfectly fair card if you pay 2 for it. I'm sorry that your deck is going to get splash damage but I'm sure there were plenty of people using black lotus to get out gray ogres or wooly mammoths, you always ban the engine its not wizards fault if you weren't breaking the engine as hard.
I wouldn't say modern is damaged. It's just in flux. Banning Eye means banning all the nice mechanics they've worked so hard to create. The epic feel of Kozilek's distortions, the weird ingest and process mechanics, a viable stompy deck for modern and legacy while also enabling other non-stompy, ramp flavors, mono-colored and colored versions, etcetera.
Taking out Thought-Knot Seer is enough to weaken Eldrazi. Multiple Eye of Ugin Mimics won't be attacking for 8 on turn 2 with a turn 3 kill if you remove the turn 2 4 drop that disrupts the 3rd turn play of the opponent. Reality Smashers come only a turn later and allow for a turn 4 kill with 2 Mimics. By that time you've had enough time to stop the bleeding by casting one of the many answers (Forked Bolt, Path to Exile, painter's servant, pyroclasm, firespout, Supreme Verdict, Counterspells, Remand to prevent mimic from switching, etc)
I'm not surprised it will get banned, but it would be a mistake to base it on (a) tournament evidence of an unadapted meta (b) massively show an unwillingness to try and beat Eldrazi purely because you think it's too strong and you protest against the format.