My main issue with the Twin banning is, why would you ban Twin if you printed the card Splinter Twin in MM2015? That to me says this banning was something done at the last minute and wasn't thought through very well. You've now established to your audience that Modern is not a stable format, you can't look to format staples as pillars of the format to go by. Just because something gets reprinted doesn't mean you can buy it and feel like you have your deck for life. It just doesn't work that way.
I was hesitant towards the safety and stability of modern before this, but now I really have no confidence in the format's long-term health. I don't think this will bring up brews at the PT either. The metagame is mostly going to be Tron/Eldrazi/Burn/Infect/Affinity.
Wow so they nerfed the amulet deck and killed twin. I was expecting the other way around. What the hell?
This new metagame will be messed up.
I guess SFM and AV are pretty safe now at least? All of a sudden attacking with a batterkull or drawing 3 cards on turn 4 are both looking pretty silly.
It is good, allot of tier 2 decks just got better.
Logically, if you keep removing the top the crap starts surfacing.
And from Forsythe's tweet it is obvious this will just continue Ad-Nauseam. Modern is and always was, aimed at Standard players who find a year long rotation something akin to an eternity.
I've been very lucky, twice now. Last time I sold pod about 3 weeks before it went, and now sold Twin some 2 months ago. Obviously I will not expect or try to be lucky a third time. They might as well keep their rather expensive rotating format.
I also like brewing. But if you talked about brewing something with UR, you had better have a good reason why it wasn't playing twin or people will whine at you about it, because Twin was just better than most other things you could try to do. If you wanted to play a combo, you'd get asked, is it as good as twin though, why don't you just play twin instead?
This is true about all prospective decks in comparison to the currently good decks. Why make a ramp deck that isn't Tron? Why make a midrange deck that isn't Jund or Junk?
This isn't even just Standard. Why make an aggro deck that isn't Atarka Red? Note that this isn't to say there aren't good answers to these questions, but in all formats you need a reason why your deck is worth playing in comparison to the already good decks in the format.
But most of all, I think banning twin is going to lead to a ton of new bans I think would be good...
Twin was a police deck, but it warped the format in the above noted ways, and without the twin police, other decks with broken cards and combos will start destroying the metagame and finally get some well deserved bans, stuff that is broken but 'oh, it's needed to keep twin in check' or 'twin keeps it in check' can now start eating bans.
So we should be happy because a ban will lead to... more bans. Hooray.
I'm also hopeful this will help drive down speculation and prices in Modern, as it scares out of the format people who only buy a single competitive deck, thinking of it as an 'investment' into the format, rather than seeing the format like I see it, a place to brew around with older cards that is fairer and more affordable than places like Legacy and Vintage. Keeping up the ban fears helps fight aggressive speculation of cards that might otherwise place in tournaments heavily due to being overpowered.
Except the people who buy only a single competitive deck aren't the ones responsible for the speculation and prices. They buy one deck and stick with it. The reason prices are going up is because people are getting more decks, either due to them already having a deck and thinking "that other deck looks good! I gotta have it!" and then buying those cards or a new player wanting to enter the format and needing a deck to play, and if one deck is off the table it just means they'd get another instead and sticking with that one. People who stick with a deck aren't the cause of rising prices because they're not giving demand; they're happy with their current decks. I suppose you can argue that it will keep prices in check because people will look at the bans and think "uh-oh, things aren't safe. I don't want to enter this format at all" thereby lowering demand due to fewer people playing. But that somehow seems counterproductive.
In fact, this could easily make the format more expensive, because you have the same issue as Standard in that you have to constantly buy new cards to stay competitive because cards in your deck aren't legal anymore. But Standard lets you know very well ahead of time when cards will be removed from the format rather than telling you one week ahead of time.
Seems most of us agree with this estimate. If I may be so humble, I would like to propose a course of action:
Boycott PT OGW.
The way I see it, if the whole point of the Twin ban was to get more people interested in the PT, the one sensible way of making it known that irrationally banning decks from the format isn't the way to pique our interest is to ignore an event that tries to gain traction through just such means. Hopefully a big enough boycott would force them to reconsider this arbitrary B&R policy, maybe unban some cards that the community generally feels are safe for the format or even abandon the Modern PT project altogether. Anyone of those three outcomes is a win for the Modern community.
As much as I'd love a boycott, there's a lot of pro's that really depend on playing in these tournaments, it would hurt them too much financially, or if they write articles for MTG sites, etc. In my heart, I'd love this though
I'm not talking about pros not attending the PT, or even content producers for Modern. I'm talking about us, the viewers, who they are trying to bait into watching the PT with the Twin ban. If the ban itself was aimed at raising interest in PT OGW (a.k.a. "in the interest of competitive diversity") then the best way we can demonstrate that this was a bad call on their part is to NOT WATCH PT OGW AT ALL.
This boycott would not get us Splinter Twin or any of the other banned cards back, but it could force WotC to adopt more strict guidelines for ban criteria in the format, hopefully less bans overall which might lead to a stable format somewhere down the line. Most importantly, it could and should deter them from trying to pull of a stunt like this in the future.
Boycott PT OGW.
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I applaud this decision. I don't play much Modern but reading Twin decklists for the past however many years was so boring. They may bring it back but I am glad to see the metagame shaken up a bit.
By shaking it up with bans it just makes the next top deck become overwhelming.
We had pod, got banned, twin took it's place.
Twin goes, affinity or tron will prevail.
People will play these 2 decks a lot more then they will have to ban.
Back to square one, pissing off players all along he way, not really balancing it out ever...
"This is not why the ban is happening. It [the PT] is dictating when, not why" -Aaron Forsythe
I know you're angry, but you are the one who consistently explains to people that the turn 4 rule is not a one part deal. It consists of various factors. Well, the twin ban is not a one part deal, it consists of various factors that were explained in the announcement. I hope as the salt levels in the magic community drop back to normal people will start to comprehend the ban.
I just feel so bad for all the Twin players who put all that money and time into their favorite deck just to have it get banned because of such a superfluous reason. That had to be soul shattering to anyone who just bought into the deck.
Yes this sucks but it happens and people will have to kove on. I went through this already when they banned Birthing Pod at the time I played Rhino Pod and it sucked as it was my favourite deck in Modern but I adapt and picked some other deck. It's not cool, neither I think it's good for format but what it is it is-nothing can be done here. We will all have to adapt and move on as the life goes on too.
The format is just too expensive for a lot of people to just "move on". I think a lot of people should take a long hard look at the value they are getting out of this format for the money and ban risk.
I would personally quit magic if I was a twin player and my 1k+ cost deck was just banned.
I think affinity and tron lands are next in line, which will probably ban out 20% of the metagame and cost players another thousand+ dollars.
I am all for shaking up the format. I personally love deck building and deck creation and so it's nice to see wizards taking some steps to level out the playing field.
I totally agree with the summer bloom ban. That deck went against a lot of the enjoyment of magic and the modern format in general. It was too non-interactive and could kill you off by turn 3 pretty consistently.
I'm not sure I agree with the twin ban as much. It did dominate the format a little more than it should have. However, I'd like for wizards to try and unban some cards as well. I'd like for the format to be shaken up, but I don't want every good deck to just keep getting the hammer. You saw what happened when they unbanned Bitterblossom. It didn't blow up the format but it added some diversity with some new deck variants and raised the power level of tokens
If I were Wizards, I would have banned Deceiver Exarch, not kill the deck entirely. I hope this means we are going to be seeing a Preordain/Ponder unban in April.
I just feel so bad for all the Twin players who put all that money and time into their favorite deck just to have it get banned because of such a superfluous reason. That had to be soul shattering to anyone who just bought into the deck.
I sold most of my Standard cards to make my Twin deck very pretty, including expedition shocklands and just about every promo and foil I could get my hands on. Hopefully most of it can translate into another shell, but the majority of my fancy lands are Grixis, and I'd rather play a Jeskai shell. Oh well.
If I were Wizards, I would have banned Deceiver Exarch, not kill the deck entirely. I hope this means we are going to be seeing a Preordain/Ponder unban in April.
**** no, you think they'll really do that?
I owned RG Tron, too, I sold out of it to buy Twin
When will this company stop screwing up...
That's twice in a single week now
The best part was reprinting Twin literally just six months ago (along with a bunch of other Twin staples) in MM15, causing great increase in the deck's popularity by lowering the entry price to play. Some great choices right there.
I certainly dont, not unless its to appease people pissed off over this. Not sure if this is a bigger deal than the Pod ban, but Pod made sense. Magic continues to print better creatures, Pod leveraged better creatures.
This ban is nonsensical however. As interest, attendance, and buy in for Modern was ever increasing, Twin clearly wasnt oppressing *****.
I just do not get the need to shake things up. I hope the next event, which I will not watch, is as linear as possible and nobody plays any interactive magic.
When will this company stop screwing up...
That's twice in a single week now
The best part was reprinting Twin literally just six months ago (along with a bunch of other Twin staples) in MM15, causing great increase in the deck's popularity by lowering the entry price to play. Some great choices right there.
It just leads me to believe that wizards are completely out of touch with their current playerbase, it also proves that they don't actually test this format.
Reading comments such as 'PT predicates bans. They aren't random, and I was agreeing that the public should understand this.' actually makes me feel like not playing this format
If I were Wizards, I would have banned Deceiver Exarch, not kill the deck entirely. I hope this means we are going to be seeing a Preordain/Ponder unban in April.
a) Banning Exarch would have been the sensible decision to nerf the deck without killing it. However, maybe WotC want to print more creatures that can untap creatures with an ETB effect? Maybe they wanted to unban some other cards and banning Twin will allow that? Maybe.
b) Preordain and Ponder are just too powerful. They just make blue decks so much better than other colours for consistency it's unfair. Serum Visions is a good, playable, strong card and I like that modern has its own blue cantrip. Preordain and Ponder should stay in Legacy, a blue-dominated format.
Ponder and Preordain give Blue what it is supposed to have: superior filter and draw. That's 1/2 of its share of the color pie (along with counter magic). Currently, black and red have superior draw/filter, and this is without a truly powerful counter magic. Blue needs weapons, and the loss of Twin is the perfect time to give it some.
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"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
You don't call "dying to removal" if the removal is more expensive in resources than the creature. If you have to spend BG (Abrupt Decay), or W + basic land (PtE) to remove a 1G, that is not "dying to removal". Strictly speaking Goyf dies to removal, but actually your removal is dying to Goyf.
People ranting and raving all over the damn place are both completely justified, and completely wrong at the same time. The fact that WotC had the stones to take out the most (played, expensive, fun, diverse, take your pick) format's darling top-8er Splinter Twin is a bummer for anyone that owned it. Mercifully, every variant sleeves quite nicely into a (still tier 1) midrange deck. I don't think it's okay at all for these bans to have no 'real' reason to it. That's not okay...especially because Twin actually had good reasons to wipe out of the landscape.
As diverse as the landscape is, one thing has always been true - What is your sideboard for affinity? Twin? Burn? You've always had to answer this question. There's never been a deck that didn't require you to slot specifically for these matches, with the short-list of the most time-tested answers to these decks. Are you in color for Abrupt Decay or Rending Volley? Better be one of them or you're hopeless against Twin. Are you on Ancient Grudge or Stony Silence? Same story. Because no matter how pants-on-head retarded your opponent is, there is going to be one time he end-steps Exarch on 3 and tops the Twin. Regardless of skill.
So, while we're on that thought, the reason sb cards against Twin always had to be uncounterable is because they laughed off anything that wasn't. The same as the new boogeyman everyone is so worried about, Tron?
Tron Killer
2cc Artifact
Lands cannot tap for more than 1 mana.
What's the problem with this? Same problem with Twin - they're very sticky and don't like being unseated from their 'best in show' position. That card comes out, immediately Tron is on mainboard artifact destruction, call it a day.
Truthfully, I just went to the Charlotte Open last Saturday. You want to know what that was like? It was awesome. This should encapsulate it:
Round 2. vs. Grixis Twin, win 2-0. Beside me on the right is Grixis Twin mirror, and on my left is the same. I don't feel bad it's gone, I hated the oops, I win from day 1 of this format. But i also don't like that it wasn't done for the right reasons.
Ponder and Preordain give Blue what it is supposed to have: superior filter and draw. That's 1/2 of its share of the color pie (along with counter magic).
And it still has that, with Serum Visions. The card isn't the 2nd most played nonland in the format for nothing.
Currently, black and red have superior draw/filter, and this is without a truly powerful counter magic.
How? What card do those colors have that's better than Serum Visions?
a) Banning Exarch would have been the sensible decision to nerf the deck without killing it. However, maybe WotC want to print more creatures that can untap creatures with an ETB effect? Maybe they wanted to unban some other cards and banning Twin will allow that? Maybe.
I feel it is quite clear that they intended to kill the deck to make sure it wasn't a presence at PT OGW. They more or less said so themselves and AF hinted at it through various tweets.
Arguing whether the Twin ban was good for the format, whether it was warping it or not, is completely mute when they themselves admitted that that wasn't their criteria for the ban to begin with. They only banned it because they didn't want you, the viewer, to potentially watch Twin take down another Modern PT.
Boycott PT OGW.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I'm not terribly sure what I expected when I opened this thread.
The end of the format, this is not. They slowed a deck down by one turn and made it a little more susceptible to lightning bolt. If this is the thing that makes you stop playing a card game that's intended for recreation, then good riddance. The magic community online is shockingly pessimistic.
I'm not terribly sure what I expected when I opened this thread.
The end of the format, this is not. They slowed a deck down by one turn and made it a little more susceptible to lightning bolt. If this is the thing that makes you stop playing a card game that's intended for recreation, then good riddance. The magic community online is shockingly pessimistic.
Being a turn slower is a good way to auto-lose against random combo decks. You're being intentionally misleading here, and its not helping you.
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I was hesitant towards the safety and stability of modern before this, but now I really have no confidence in the format's long-term health. I don't think this will bring up brews at the PT either. The metagame is mostly going to be Tron/Eldrazi/Burn/Infect/Affinity.
This new metagame will be messed up.
I guess SFM and AV are pretty safe now at least? All of a sudden attacking with a batterkull or drawing 3 cards on turn 4 are both looking pretty silly.
Logically, if you keep removing the top the crap starts surfacing.
And from Forsythe's tweet it is obvious this will just continue Ad-Nauseam. Modern is and always was, aimed at Standard players who find a year long rotation something akin to an eternity.
I've been very lucky, twice now. Last time I sold pod about 3 weeks before it went, and now sold Twin some 2 months ago. Obviously I will not expect or try to be lucky a third time. They might as well keep their rather expensive rotating format.
Affinity players, you're next!
This isn't even just Standard. Why make an aggro deck that isn't Atarka Red? Note that this isn't to say there aren't good answers to these questions, but in all formats you need a reason why your deck is worth playing in comparison to the already good decks in the format.
So we should be happy because a ban will lead to... more bans. Hooray.
Except the people who buy only a single competitive deck aren't the ones responsible for the speculation and prices. They buy one deck and stick with it. The reason prices are going up is because people are getting more decks, either due to them already having a deck and thinking "that other deck looks good! I gotta have it!" and then buying those cards or a new player wanting to enter the format and needing a deck to play, and if one deck is off the table it just means they'd get another instead and sticking with that one. People who stick with a deck aren't the cause of rising prices because they're not giving demand; they're happy with their current decks. I suppose you can argue that it will keep prices in check because people will look at the bans and think "uh-oh, things aren't safe. I don't want to enter this format at all" thereby lowering demand due to fewer people playing. But that somehow seems counterproductive.
In fact, this could easily make the format more expensive, because you have the same issue as Standard in that you have to constantly buy new cards to stay competitive because cards in your deck aren't legal anymore. But Standard lets you know very well ahead of time when cards will be removed from the format rather than telling you one week ahead of time.
I'm not talking about pros not attending the PT, or even content producers for Modern. I'm talking about us, the viewers, who they are trying to bait into watching the PT with the Twin ban. If the ban itself was aimed at raising interest in PT OGW (a.k.a. "in the interest of competitive diversity") then the best way we can demonstrate that this was a bad call on their part is to NOT WATCH PT OGW AT ALL.
This boycott would not get us Splinter Twin or any of the other banned cards back, but it could force WotC to adopt more strict guidelines for ban criteria in the format, hopefully less bans overall which might lead to a stable format somewhere down the line. Most importantly, it could and should deter them from trying to pull of a stunt like this in the future.
Boycott PT OGW.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
By shaking it up with bans it just makes the next top deck become overwhelming.
We had pod, got banned, twin took it's place.
Twin goes, affinity or tron will prevail.
People will play these 2 decks a lot more then they will have to ban.
Back to square one, pissing off players all along he way, not really balancing it out ever...
In response to this same logic in the tweet:
"This is not why the ban is happening. It [the PT] is dictating when, not why" -Aaron Forsythe
I know you're angry, but you are the one who consistently explains to people that the turn 4 rule is not a one part deal. It consists of various factors. Well, the twin ban is not a one part deal, it consists of various factors that were explained in the announcement. I hope as the salt levels in the magic community drop back to normal people will start to comprehend the ban.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
Based on this announcement, I would barely be surprised if Mountain is emergency-banned later today.
The format is just too expensive for a lot of people to just "move on". I think a lot of people should take a long hard look at the value they are getting out of this format for the money and ban risk.
I would personally quit magic if I was a twin player and my 1k+ cost deck was just banned.
I think affinity and tron lands are next in line, which will probably ban out 20% of the metagame and cost players another thousand+ dollars.
I totally agree with the summer bloom ban. That deck went against a lot of the enjoyment of magic and the modern format in general. It was too non-interactive and could kill you off by turn 3 pretty consistently.
I'm not sure I agree with the twin ban as much. It did dominate the format a little more than it should have. However, I'd like for wizards to try and unban some cards as well. I'd like for the format to be shaken up, but I don't want every good deck to just keep getting the hammer. You saw what happened when they unbanned Bitterblossom. It didn't blow up the format but it added some diversity with some new deck variants and raised the power level of tokens
StandardArena:U/R Drakes
Modern
URStormUR
UBRDeath's ShadowUBR
I sold most of my Standard cards to make my Twin deck very pretty, including expedition shocklands and just about every promo and foil I could get my hands on. Hopefully most of it can translate into another shell, but the majority of my fancy lands are Grixis, and I'd rather play a Jeskai shell. Oh well.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
That's twice in a single week now
**** no, you think they'll really do that?
I owned RG Tron, too, I sold out of it to buy Twin
The best part was reprinting Twin literally just six months ago (along with a bunch of other Twin staples) in MM15, causing great increase in the deck's popularity by lowering the entry price to play. Some great choices right there.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
This ban is nonsensical however. As interest, attendance, and buy in for Modern was ever increasing, Twin clearly wasnt oppressing *****.
I just do not get the need to shake things up. I hope the next event, which I will not watch, is as linear as possible and nobody plays any interactive magic.
Spirits
It just leads me to believe that wizards are completely out of touch with their current playerbase, it also proves that they don't actually test this format.
Reading comments such as 'PT predicates bans. They aren't random, and I was agreeing that the public should understand this.' actually makes me feel like not playing this format
Ponder and Preordain give Blue what it is supposed to have: superior filter and draw. That's 1/2 of its share of the color pie (along with counter magic). Currently, black and red have superior draw/filter, and this is without a truly powerful counter magic. Blue needs weapons, and the loss of Twin is the perfect time to give it some.
"I hope to have such a death... lying in triumph atop the broken bodies of those who slew me..."
As diverse as the landscape is, one thing has always been true - What is your sideboard for affinity? Twin? Burn? You've always had to answer this question. There's never been a deck that didn't require you to slot specifically for these matches, with the short-list of the most time-tested answers to these decks. Are you in color for Abrupt Decay or Rending Volley? Better be one of them or you're hopeless against Twin. Are you on Ancient Grudge or Stony Silence? Same story. Because no matter how pants-on-head retarded your opponent is, there is going to be one time he end-steps Exarch on 3 and tops the Twin. Regardless of skill.
So, while we're on that thought, the reason sb cards against Twin always had to be uncounterable is because they laughed off anything that wasn't. The same as the new boogeyman everyone is so worried about, Tron?
Tron Killer
2cc Artifact
Lands cannot tap for more than 1 mana.
What's the problem with this? Same problem with Twin - they're very sticky and don't like being unseated from their 'best in show' position. That card comes out, immediately Tron is on mainboard artifact destruction, call it a day.
Truthfully, I just went to the Charlotte Open last Saturday. You want to know what that was like? It was awesome. This should encapsulate it:
Round 2. vs. Grixis Twin, win 2-0. Beside me on the right is Grixis Twin mirror, and on my left is the same. I don't feel bad it's gone, I hated the oops, I win from day 1 of this format. But i also don't like that it wasn't done for the right reasons.
How? What card do those colors have that's better than Serum Visions?
I feel it is quite clear that they intended to kill the deck to make sure it wasn't a presence at PT OGW. They more or less said so themselves and AF hinted at it through various tweets.
Arguing whether the Twin ban was good for the format, whether it was warping it or not, is completely mute when they themselves admitted that that wasn't their criteria for the ban to begin with. They only banned it because they didn't want you, the viewer, to potentially watch Twin take down another Modern PT.
Boycott PT OGW.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
The end of the format, this is not. They slowed a deck down by one turn and made it a little more susceptible to lightning bolt. If this is the thing that makes you stop playing a card game that's intended for recreation, then good riddance. The magic community online is shockingly pessimistic.
Being a turn slower is a good way to auto-lose against random combo decks. You're being intentionally misleading here, and its not helping you.