You saw many more Tron builds prior to KTK then since the release. Tron may have had a good match up with Pod, but that fact didnt bring Tron players out while Pod dominated.
That's because Tron is quite bad against just about everything other than those two decks. Delver happened to be something that wasn't one of those two decks, same with Burn, and same with many others. Those are what kept Tron down, and those will continue to keep Tron down.
25 pages of butt hurt in 12 hours has to be some kind of record for these forums. These changes are awesome. Look at all the viable decks again. It could have been so much worse. Enough salt in this thread to put Morton's out of business smh.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
You do understand the 3rd best deck in the format prior to these bans was Junk? You do understand Junk will still run Finks and Rhinos?
Burn will still be T2. WIth the nerf of Delver and loss of Pod, Soul sisters and other life gain strategies will rise a bit.
You do understand that even if they run both Finks and Rhino as 4 of's (and they typically don't run Finks MB opting for Lingering Souls) they have less consistency at hitting their lifegain than Pod has.
You do understand that Burn just got a fantastic tool to combat lifelink?
You do understand that when Pod moved away from combos their Soul Sisters matchup, along side a few others like Bogles where the combo provided a way to go over the top of large amounts of life got much worse? Those decks already saw the majority of their gains. That aside I'm not really sure that having even more life gain be good in the meta is a thing to herald as a great change. Lifegain is a very tedious strategy to fight through, particularly when it's popular.
Time will tell.
Why would the weakening of Delver help Soul Sisters? That deck was always a nightmare matchup for Delver.
The weakening of Delver and doing away with Pod, is what will help Soul Sisters. We rarely saw Soul Sisters make any waves during the last 3 months.
I am not sure about the Pod matchup, but Delver getting weaker can only hurt Soul Sisters. As a Delver player, that is the deck that I want to face the least. I would rather face Pod and Bogles all day long than go against any of the monowhite lifegain decks. It is basically unwinnable.
You could try WUR Delver. It has a higher threat density and I would say that without Cruise making card velocity better than card quality, it is stronger than UR Delver. It also doesn't cost that much more than UR Delver does.
Edit: Also, Valakut was unbanned by Wizards. I doubt that they will ban it again any time soon.
UWR would be something to consider. I was kind of taking a hybrid approach to UR Delver anyways inspired by one of the Milan lists that sideboarded some white cards in Geist/Wear and Tear. As luck would have it I already have the manabase and most of the white cards. I would just need Lightning Helix. If I go that route I may look at UWR Midrange, I would need two Cliques to finish it (only own 1 now) plus Helix which I could do (that's on the upper limit of what I'm willing to spend to move into another deck though).
I'd suggest checking out the WUR Delver thread. It would cost less than moving to WUR Midrange anyways and I think that it has a similar viability (you trade Restoration Angel for Delver and Celestial Colonnade for more spells).
I had completely forgotten about both of those UWR decks and it's not Valakut I'm worried about but instead something like Amulet of Vigor or the card Scapeshift. Namesake cards that kill the deck but nothing else in the event a ban is needed. I much prefer decks (especially going forward I think) like Jund that are just good stuff decks. They're more likely to be weakened rather than killed. Delver fits that description, I just don't know if I want to play it in tournaments.
Trust me, Scapeshift isn't getting banned. Wizards chose to ban Valakut originally because Scapeshift can theoretically see play in other decks. If anything gets banned it will be Valakut, and that just isn't happening.
You saw many more Tron builds prior to KTK then since the release. Tron may have had a good match up with Pod, but that fact didnt bring Tron players out while Pod dominated.
That's because Tron is quite bad against just about everything other than those two decks. Delver happened to be something that wasn't one of those two decks, same with Burn, and same with many others. Those are what kept Tron down, and those will continue to keep Tron down.
Time will tell, but I think you are wrong. With Delver nerfed, probably going more the tempo/control way then the aggro it has been, the lack of Pod, and Burn losing its gas station in TC. Tron should see a resurgence. No sense in arguing about it, let see where the format goes.
Tron thrived with Affinity the top aggro deck, burn being played, preKTK. We are close to being in the same place sans 2 cards. I dont think those 2 cards will keep Tron down.
Very disappointed by WOTC's choice here. Modern's become a lot less interesting.
If these three cards being banned results in the format being far less interesting then it's not a problem with the bans. It's a problem with the format.
Really? Ban brainstorm, Force of Will and Stifle, and tell me: how interesting does legacy look?
25 pages of butt hurt in 12 hours has to be some kind of record for these forums. These changes are awesome. Look at all the viable decks again. It could have been so much worse. Enough salt in this thread to put Morton's out of business smh.
You're out of you mind if you don't think there is going to be a massive surge in Junk decks. There is a very good chance we see a regression in the format.
25 pages of butt hurt in 12 hours has to be some kind of record for these forums. These changes are awesome. Look at all the viable decks again. It could have been so much worse. Enough salt in this thread to put Morton's out of business smh.
You're out of you mind if you don't think there is going to be a massive surge in Junk decks. There is a very good chance we see a regression in the format.
There was already a massive amount of junk in the format. Now at least you'll run into Twin, Tron, UWR Midrange, Bogles and maybe even Living End a lot more often. Burn unfortunately too. There's good and bad with the change in the format but I really believe a lot more good came than bad.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Very disappointed by WOTC's choice here. Modern's become a lot less interesting.
If these three cards being banned results in the format being far less interesting then it's not a problem with the bans. It's a problem with the format.
Really? Ban brainstorm, Force of Will and Stifle, and tell me: how interesting does legacy look?
Forget Brainstorm and Stifle, just axe Force of Will and the format comes down to who's better at the Goblin Charbelcher mirror.
Very disappointed by WOTC's choice here. Modern's become a lot less interesting.
If these three cards being banned results in the format being far less interesting then it's not a problem with the bans. It's a problem with the format.
Really? Ban brainstorm, Force of Will and Stifle, and tell me: how interesting does legacy look?
Forget Brainstorm and Stifle, just axe Force of Will and the format comes down to who's better at the Goblin Charbelcher mirror.
Or did the Ops, All Spells deck side into Charbelcher or not....
I'm super interested in seeing how the format will turn out. If BGx gets big of coarse Tron comes around, as does burn. Any tier 2 or under deck that just died to Pod now has a chance. I can't wait to see if Twin comes back, and what rouge strategies fill the void.
25 pages of butt hurt in 12 hours has to be some kind of record for these forums. These changes are awesome. Look at all the viable decks again. It could have been so much worse. Enough salt in this thread to put Morton's out of business smh.
You're out of you mind if you don't think there is going to be a massive surge in Junk decks. There is a very good chance we see a regression in the format.
There was already a massive amount of junk in the format. Now at least you'll run into Twin, Tron, UWR Midrange, Bogles and maybe even Living End a lot more often. Burn unfortunately too. There's good and bad with the change in the format but I really believe a lot more good came than bad.
Who in their right mind is stupid enough to play bogles or burn or affinity or even Living End right now?
How can you not see that each one of these decks just got insanely worse? Do you know what those four decks have to run up against? Oh yeah, their worst possible matchups that they had already with nothing suppressing them.
This isn't a cry about what got banned, it's a massive cry about not having enough UNBANNED. They just narrowed the top decks. They didn't diversify anything. Look at Tribal Flames - it's already running Siege Rhino. It was able to see play in a format with UR Delver and Pod running the show. Everything that existed prior just got stronger, there will be no new decks. Fate Reforged added a pure 0-2 cards to the Modern format, and no incentive for new strategies.
I haven't played on that many pro tours, but dear god I bet someone could train monkeys to predict this new metagame.
EDIT: Just for kicks, I guarantee at least five of these deck archetypes, take up 60% or more in the top 32 of the best performing constructed decks of the Pro Tour. These will be the better performing decks; Splinter Twin, Scapeshift, Gifts Rock, Tribal Zoo, UWR
Affinity, Bogles, Burn, and Living End have no chance in hell against those 5.
The thing that frustrates me the most is the people who were the most vocal for a Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time ban are the same people who will be back here in a few days demanding Tarmogoyf, Abrupt Decay, and Liliana bans.
Extremely pleased with the Pod banning. I think that one is about 2 years over due. And i totally understand the Cruise banning. But Dig through Time too? I honestly didn't see that one coming at all..
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EDIT: Just for kicks, I guarantee at least five of these deck archetypes, take up 60% or more in the top 32 of the best performing constructed decks of the Pro Tour. These will be the better performing decks; Splinter Twin, Scapeshift, Gifts Rock, Tribal Zoo, UWR
Affinity, Bogles, Burn, and Living End have no chance in hell against those 5.
That all depends on how much removal people take out of their decks. If there isn't much that takes out x/1-x/2s then I could see Affinity and Bogles doing well.
Gifts Rock? Really? I would put my money on Bogels, Burn, Affinity, Living End, Ad Nauseam, or Storm before I ever put faith in a GBU rock deck that has never put up results despite having all the cards available to it for years.
The thing that frustrates me the most is the people who were the most vocal for a Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time ban are the same people who will be back here in a few days demanding Tarmogoyf, Abrupt Decay, and Liliana bans.
Why is that frustrating? If BGx becomes the most dominant deck, shouldn't it have some of its core banned as well?
i don't believe affinity got weaker. BGx, scapeshift are all good matchup. after sideboard, affinity still have the edge if they don't drawtheir hate cards. splintertwin will have a harder time post sideboard against affinity. URW is strong against affinity, but not unbeatable.
i dare to make these comment because i have win them before. they are not impossible, just harder and you just need to be more cautious.
burn is still viable and not really affected by the ban list.
bogle is still strong. i believe it is up to the pilot on how well they pilot the deck.
i am not sceptical about the ban, in fact i welcome them. the thing is if you want to play stuff that are unfair to the meta or just too far superiorto other decks in the meta, you know you will be facing an axe any time.
right now i am anticipating what are the other decks that will come and be a contender. skred red seems well position with all the 3 colour deck.
That is going down a slippery slope. If you follow it, everything but Bolt and only the worst creatures will be banned for being too good. There is always a group complaining that something needs banned because it beat their terrible home brew, or they don't want to work on their net deck, or they don't want to improve their play. Don't ban the cards, ban the crappy players.
When you have less archetypes to worry about, the hate factor rises, and single synergy strategies get thrown out the window.
Affinity, Burn, Living End and Boggles all fold to common green cards that will be found in 3/5 of the top decks I said earlier. UWR has always had flexible removal between those three colors and common is able to keep up.
It seems people have forgotten to remember when decks like Burn and Affinity barely existed. Those times are near us again, I just hope I am wrong.
When you have less archetypes to worry about, the hate factor rises, and single synergy strategies get thrown out the window.
Affinity, Burn, Living End and Boggles all fold to common green cards that will be found in 3/5 of the top decks I said earlier. UWR has always had flexible removal between those three colors and common is able to keep up.
It seems people have forgotten to remember when decks like Burn and Affinity barely existed. Those times are near us again, I just hope I am wrong.
When did Affinity barely exist? It has been a pillar of the format for years.
This is exactly the opposite direction that I had hoped WOTC would go with the B+R announcement today.
I had hoped they would look at the format and say, "gee, TC and DTT are powerful, and Pod is the best deck in the format. What can we unban that would level the playing field for other archetypes?" There are certainly choices there for them. They also have the option of pushing some new Standard cards in the near term.
I think that as power creep happens in the game in general that the power level of Modern as a format should be allowed to grow, which is why I don't like cards like BBE, DRS, TC, DTT, and even Pod being banned. Instead they decide to "suppress" the format to remain at a specified power level which, in my opinion, is entirely unrealistic in the long run.
I'll dust off the junk deck since it's now likely the best deck in the format. But I don't have confidence that any powerful card is safe from being banned and I'll only add sparingly to my collection from here on out - I won't buy complete decks. Having already collected almost all the staples that's certainly easy for me to say, but you never know what will be printed in the future. I, for one, will ignore future powerful cards since they'll just get banned.
The thing that frustrates me the most is the people who were the most vocal for a Treasure Cruise/Dig Through Time ban are the same people who will be back here in a few days demanding Tarmogoyf, Abrupt Decay, and Liliana bans.
Why is that frustrating? If BGx becomes the most dominant deck, shouldn't it have some of its core banned as well?
I feel that Goyf no matter how omnipresent (seen in aggro, combo, and control, along with being seen in decks with strategies unrelated to Goyf like affinity) can't be banned. He is Modern's poster creature along Bob which can make WOTC lots of money and I feel they use him as the absolute top of the power curve because they have to stop somewhere.
I wouldn't mind the other two being banned because it helps out my deck against them but I don't see the ban happening any time soon, Decay is a 1 for 1 and you almost have to build your deck around liliana to not lose too much value from her +1.
Junk will have an easier time than Jund did with Burn, but if the Martyr/Soul Sister decks don't come around I could see Burn coming back around. Burn and Bogles are Moderns Dredge. I think you'll see a lot of Affinity and Affinity hate. It's one of, if not the, fastest aggro decks. When in doubt, play affinity. It's still got the best game ones in Modern.
It all depends on how the meta shakes out. You could see a bunch of people trying to get the jump on Junk, playing RG tron, or Burn, in which case I could see Living End do well. Although I'm bummed that more cards didn't get unbanned, I am happy with how many decks appear to have the tools to do well. I wouldn't count any of the current tier two decks out of spiking the PT excluding the super unreliable stuff like Reanimator.
When you have less archetypes to worry about, the hate factor rises, and single synergy strategies get thrown out the window.
Affinity, Burn, Living End and Boggles all fold to common green cards that will be found in 3/5 of the top decks I said earlier. UWR has always had flexible removal between those three colors and common is able to keep up.
It seems people have forgotten to remember when decks like Burn and Affinity barely existed. Those times are near us again, I just hope I am wrong.
When did Affinity barely exist? It has been a pillar of the format for years.
You and I have very different definitions of "Pillar". In no point in time was affinity in the 1st best performing deck bracket. Is it tier 1? Depends on your comparative percentages, but was it a Pillar? No.
I don't think anyone can argue for TC now. They banned it in Legacy and restricted it in Vintage. That's a BIG deal when you think about it.
Pod, well, it was like the Survival of the Fittest of Modern. I play a lot of combo and ramp decks which are generally at least even in the Pod matchup, so I don't really have a burning hate for it. I'd understand if you were playing a "fair" deck and said that Pod was way too hard to beat.
Dig is more controversial. I wasn't expecting nor wanting it to get banned. The explanation that they provided was unconvincing - "if TC is banned then Delver just plays Dig instead". Is Dig Delver just as strong as TC Delver, even after other TC decks and Pod are banned? What about Temporal Trespass, can we extend this to say "since TC and Dig are banned, Delver just plays Temporal Trespass instead"?
On one hand, Junk looks like it's going to reclaim its spot as top dog and Dig gives other decks a way to fight through all the discard. On the other hand, the Dig decks are Scapeshift, Twin and UWR Ascendancy, and those decks might end up edging out Junk instead. I guess we have to wait and see - it's not like WOTC undoes bans at the next announcement, but if we see a lack of blue decks at T8s/T16s then Dig could be taken off.
Well that was a fun format. See you in 2019 when they finaly unban Pod, since as an unemployed I can't afford a new deck.
(Hint there has been only one format in past two years that I've been playing.)
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That's because Tron is quite bad against just about everything other than those two decks. Delver happened to be something that wasn't one of those two decks, same with Burn, and same with many others. Those are what kept Tron down, and those will continue to keep Tron down.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
I am not sure about the Pod matchup, but Delver getting weaker can only hurt Soul Sisters. As a Delver player, that is the deck that I want to face the least. I would rather face Pod and Bogles all day long than go against any of the monowhite lifegain decks. It is basically unwinnable.
I'd suggest checking out the WUR Delver thread. It would cost less than moving to WUR Midrange anyways and I think that it has a similar viability (you trade Restoration Angel for Delver and Celestial Colonnade for more spells).
Trust me, Scapeshift isn't getting banned. Wizards chose to ban Valakut originally because Scapeshift can theoretically see play in other decks. If anything gets banned it will be Valakut, and that just isn't happening.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Time will tell, but I think you are wrong. With Delver nerfed, probably going more the tempo/control way then the aggro it has been, the lack of Pod, and Burn losing its gas station in TC. Tron should see a resurgence. No sense in arguing about it, let see where the format goes.
Tron thrived with Affinity the top aggro deck, burn being played, preKTK. We are close to being in the same place sans 2 cards. I dont think those 2 cards will keep Tron down.
Really? Ban brainstorm, Force of Will and Stifle, and tell me: how interesting does legacy look?
You're out of you mind if you don't think there is going to be a massive surge in Junk decks. There is a very good chance we see a regression in the format.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Or did the Ops, All Spells deck side into Charbelcher or not....
I'm super interested in seeing how the format will turn out. If BGx gets big of coarse Tron comes around, as does burn. Any tier 2 or under deck that just died to Pod now has a chance. I can't wait to see if Twin comes back, and what rouge strategies fill the void.
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Who in their right mind is stupid enough to play bogles or burn or affinity or even Living End right now?
How can you not see that each one of these decks just got insanely worse? Do you know what those four decks have to run up against? Oh yeah, their worst possible matchups that they had already with nothing suppressing them.
This isn't a cry about what got banned, it's a massive cry about not having enough UNBANNED. They just narrowed the top decks. They didn't diversify anything. Look at Tribal Flames - it's already running Siege Rhino. It was able to see play in a format with UR Delver and Pod running the show. Everything that existed prior just got stronger, there will be no new decks. Fate Reforged added a pure 0-2 cards to the Modern format, and no incentive for new strategies.
I haven't played on that many pro tours, but dear god I bet someone could train monkeys to predict this new metagame.
EDIT: Just for kicks, I guarantee at least five of these deck archetypes, take up 60% or more in the top 32 of the best performing constructed decks of the Pro Tour. These will be the better performing decks; Splinter Twin, Scapeshift, Gifts Rock, Tribal Zoo, UWR
Affinity, Bogles, Burn, and Living End have no chance in hell against those 5.
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That all depends on how much removal people take out of their decks. If there isn't much that takes out x/1-x/2s then I could see Affinity and Bogles doing well.
Gifts Rock? Really? I would put my money on Bogels, Burn, Affinity, Living End, Ad Nauseam, or Storm before I ever put faith in a GBU rock deck that has never put up results despite having all the cards available to it for years.
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Why is that frustrating? If BGx becomes the most dominant deck, shouldn't it have some of its core banned as well?
i dare to make these comment because i have win them before. they are not impossible, just harder and you just need to be more cautious.
burn is still viable and not really affected by the ban list.
bogle is still strong. i believe it is up to the pilot on how well they pilot the deck.
i am not sceptical about the ban, in fact i welcome them. the thing is if you want to play stuff that are unfair to the meta or just too far superiorto other decks in the meta, you know you will be facing an axe any time.
right now i am anticipating what are the other decks that will come and be a contender. skred red seems well position with all the 3 colour deck.
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Affinity, Burn, Living End and Boggles all fold to common green cards that will be found in 3/5 of the top decks I said earlier. UWR has always had flexible removal between those three colors and common is able to keep up.
It seems people have forgotten to remember when decks like Burn and Affinity barely existed. Those times are near us again, I just hope I am wrong.
When did Affinity barely exist? It has been a pillar of the format for years.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
This is exactly the opposite direction that I had hoped WOTC would go with the B+R announcement today.
I had hoped they would look at the format and say, "gee, TC and DTT are powerful, and Pod is the best deck in the format. What can we unban that would level the playing field for other archetypes?" There are certainly choices there for them. They also have the option of pushing some new Standard cards in the near term.
I think that as power creep happens in the game in general that the power level of Modern as a format should be allowed to grow, which is why I don't like cards like BBE, DRS, TC, DTT, and even Pod being banned. Instead they decide to "suppress" the format to remain at a specified power level which, in my opinion, is entirely unrealistic in the long run.
I'll dust off the junk deck since it's now likely the best deck in the format. But I don't have confidence that any powerful card is safe from being banned and I'll only add sparingly to my collection from here on out - I won't buy complete decks. Having already collected almost all the staples that's certainly easy for me to say, but you never know what will be printed in the future. I, for one, will ignore future powerful cards since they'll just get banned.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
I feel that Goyf no matter how omnipresent (seen in aggro, combo, and control, along with being seen in decks with strategies unrelated to Goyf like affinity) can't be banned. He is Modern's poster creature along Bob which can make WOTC lots of money and I feel they use him as the absolute top of the power curve because they have to stop somewhere.
I wouldn't mind the other two being banned because it helps out my deck against them but I don't see the ban happening any time soon, Decay is a 1 for 1 and you almost have to build your deck around liliana to not lose too much value from her +1.
It all depends on how the meta shakes out. You could see a bunch of people trying to get the jump on Junk, playing RG tron, or Burn, in which case I could see Living End do well. Although I'm bummed that more cards didn't get unbanned, I am happy with how many decks appear to have the tools to do well. I wouldn't count any of the current tier two decks out of spiking the PT excluding the super unreliable stuff like Reanimator.
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You and I have very different definitions of "Pillar". In no point in time was affinity in the 1st best performing deck bracket. Is it tier 1? Depends on your comparative percentages, but was it a Pillar? No.
Pod, well, it was like the Survival of the Fittest of Modern. I play a lot of combo and ramp decks which are generally at least even in the Pod matchup, so I don't really have a burning hate for it. I'd understand if you were playing a "fair" deck and said that Pod was way too hard to beat.
Dig is more controversial. I wasn't expecting nor wanting it to get banned. The explanation that they provided was unconvincing - "if TC is banned then Delver just plays Dig instead". Is Dig Delver just as strong as TC Delver, even after other TC decks and Pod are banned? What about Temporal Trespass, can we extend this to say "since TC and Dig are banned, Delver just plays Temporal Trespass instead"?
On one hand, Junk looks like it's going to reclaim its spot as top dog and Dig gives other decks a way to fight through all the discard. On the other hand, the Dig decks are Scapeshift, Twin and UWR Ascendancy, and those decks might end up edging out Junk instead. I guess we have to wait and see - it's not like WOTC undoes bans at the next announcement, but if we see a lack of blue decks at T8s/T16s then Dig could be taken off.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
(Hint there has been only one format in past two years that I've been playing.)
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Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero