I'm also curious to read what others think about the implications of banning Gitaxian Probe. Mind you, I haven't read through all 250 pages, but I haven't really seen any discussion regarding this card recently. Maybe I'm just crazy thinking it's a candidate for the banlist.
Well, I think Ponder and Preordain were banned mostly due to its card selection factor other than the card drawing one. I don't think that cantrips per se (be it Gitaxian Probe, Abundant Growth or Chromatic Sphere) are on the table for bannings. That's because I guess Cantrips can be seen as either selective or non-selective.
What I'd call a Selective Cantrip involves an effect that allows the player to dig his deck to pick an adequate answer to a given situation. Ponder and Preordain remain banned due to this, as they would increase the consistency of Combo decks' draws. Serum Visions, though, is slower - its selection is available only on the following turn, what makes it weaker than the banned ones. Sleight of Hand and Telling Time, while give immediate selection, have much narrower effects, and provide less "collateral advantage" than Ponder's shuffle or Preordain's Scrying BEFORE the draw. The same can be said of Peer Through Depths.
Non-Selective Cantrips, on the other hand, merely replace themselves on your hand in a quantitative manner. It relies solely on your deck's own consistency in order to provide you the resources you need. This is true for Abundand Growth, Cerulean Wisps etc. Note that Serum Visions's draw is non-selective, which is why it (probably/hopefully) won't be banned. Gitaxian Probe fits in this group, leading me to think that WotC probably won't ban it.
Regarding Sword of the Meek unban, will it be used in delver decks?
Turn 1: Thought Scour -> mill Sword of the Meek to the graveyard
Turn 2: delver -> bring back Sword of the Meek -> delver becomes 2/3
Turn 3: delver becomes 4/4 flyer
Not to mention Young Pyromancer can bring many 1/1...
Yyyeeeeeaaaahh... I hadn't thought of it that way.
Regarding Sword of the Meek unban, will it be used in delver decks?
Turn 1: Thought Scour -> mill Sword of the Meek to the graveyard
Turn 2: delver -> bring back Sword of the Meek -> delver becomes 2/3
Turn 3: delver becomes 4/4 flyer
Not to mention Young Pyromancer can bring many 1/1...
Magical Chanukah Land. They don't use Runechanter's Pike and that would be much better.
Regarding Sword of the Meek unban, will it be used in delver decks?
Short answer: No.
Long answer: Heck no.
Turn 1: Thought Scour -> mill Sword of the Meek to the graveyard
Turn 2: delver -> bring back Sword of the Meek -> delver becomes 2/3
Turn 3: delver becomes 4/4 flyer
Not to mention Young Pyromancer can bring many 1/1...
Okay. So what happens in the extremely likely chance that Sword of the Meek doesn't end up in the graveyard when you cast Thought Scour? Or you don't have the Thought Scour?
It requires everything to line up perfectly (it has to be in the top 2 cards of your library and you have to cast the Thought Scour then and you have to have a 1/1, which isn't that impressive if your creatures are Monastery Swiftspear and Snapcaster Mage), and all you get for your efforts is a +1/+2 on one of your creatures. In any situation where you don't have a Thought Scour or Thought Scour doesn't hit the Sword of the Meek or you don't have an unflipped Delver/Young Pyromancer token, which is like 95+% of situations, you'd be better off with Manriki-Gusari. Delver decks sure as heck aren't playing that card, so why would they play a card that's worse than that almost all of the time?
Regarding Sword of the Meek unban, will it be used in delver decks?
Turn 1: Thought Scour -> mill Sword of the Meek to the graveyard
Turn 2: delver -> bring back Sword of the Meek -> delver becomes 2/3
Turn 3: delver becomes 4/4 flyer
Not to mention Young Pyromancer can bring many 1/1...
Magical Chanukah Land. They don't use Runechanter's Pike and that would be much better.
Well, Runechanter's Pike works poorly with TC. Thus, it will never be used in delver for the moment.
Regarding Sword of the Meek unban, will it be used in delver decks?
Short answer: No.
Long answer: Heck no.
Turn 1: Thought Scour -> mill Sword of the Meek to the graveyard
Turn 2: delver -> bring back Sword of the Meek -> delver becomes 2/3
Turn 3: delver becomes 4/4 flyer
Not to mention Young Pyromancer can bring many 1/1...
Okay. So what happens in the extremely likely chance that Sword of the Meek doesn't end up in the graveyard when you cast Thought Scour? Or you don't have the Thought Scour?
It requires everything to line up perfectly (it has to be in the top 2 cards of your library and you have to cast the Thought Scour then and you have to have a 1/1, which isn't that impressive if your creatures are Monastery Swiftspear and Snapcaster Mage), and all you get for your efforts is a +1/+2 on one of your creatures. In any situation where you don't have a Thought Scour or Thought Scour doesn't hit the Sword of the Meek or you don't have an unflipped Delver/Young Pyromancer token, which is like 95+% of situations, you'd be better off with Manriki-Gusari. Delver decks sure as heck aren't playing that card, so why would they play a card that's worse than that almost all of the time?
Thanks for the clarification. Just want to make sure this unban will not bring up delver anymore.
Stop using Caps Lock or I report you for spamming.
Using CAPS is spamming?? I was unaware. Apparently so was ktkenshinx, and he's a mod.
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Gitaxian Probe getting banned is more silly talk. It breaks no rules, and does nothing of particular note besides synergizing well with strategies that want to cast lots of spells.
Sword of the Meek is not a Delver card, and never will be. It would probably oppress Delver pretty well, but I doubt they release this combo into Modern right now. It's not exactly fun or fair once it gets going.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Stop using Caps Lock or I report you for spamming.
Using CAPS is spamming?? I was unaware. Apparently so was ktkenshinx, and he's a mod.
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Gitaxian Probe getting banned is more silly talk. It breaks no rules, and does nothing of particular note besides synergizing well with strategies that want to cast lots of spells.
Sword of the Meek is not a Delver card, and never will be. It would probably oppress Delver pretty well, but I doubt they release this combo into Modern right now. It's not exactly fun or fair once it gets going.
That's pretty subjective though. A lot of things that are going on in Modern can be considered neither fun nor fair and yet people can live with that.
...
I suppose it's not unfair to point out that Zoo did have Umezawa's Jitte... but that's a bit compensated by the fact ThopterDepths was running Chrome Mox and Dark Depths. (and yes, Zoo did also have Bloodbraid Elf, but as I've stated repeatedly, the card should be unbanned)
While Extended was a different format, it does suggest to me that ThopterSword may not be the inherent killer of aggro in Modern that people are making it out to be.
Honestly, you are comparing apples and oranges, you are using a completely different format to justify ThoperSword being ok.
Exaggerating, we could in the same way use Legacy and say that most of the banned cards would actually be fine. But alas, that is a completely different format with a very different card pool. As extended was.
...
I suppose it's not unfair to point out that Zoo did have Umezawa's Jitte... but that's a bit compensated by the fact ThopterDepths was running Chrome Mox and Dark Depths. (and yes, Zoo did also have Bloodbraid Elf, but as I've stated repeatedly, the card should be unbanned)
While Extended was a different format, it does suggest to me that ThopterSword may not be the inherent killer of aggro in Modern that people are making it out to be.
Honestly, you are comparing apples and oranges, you are using a completely different format to justify ThoperSword being ok.
I'm pointing out that despite people saying the Sword of the Meek in Modern would kill off aggro, aggro was able to be quite competitive when facing a better version of ThopterSword than would be possible in Modern (cards like Jace and Dark Depths being banned and all that). I do think the comparison is therefore at least somewhat relevant.
Exaggerating, we could in the same way use Legacy and say that most of the banned cards would actually be fine. But alas, that is a completely different format with a very different card pool. As extended was.
Okay, in what way would you manage the argument that Legacy shows cards on the banned list in Modern would be fine? I'm genuinely curious. You can't say "well they're okay in Legacy" because Legacy is a higher power format. Legacy could, however, be used as an argument for banning cards in Modern, with the rationale that if a card is able to stand up to Legacy's power, it could be considered too good for Modern.
That's pretty subjective though. A lot of things that are going on in Modern can be considered neither fun nor fair and yet people can live with that.
I wasn't trying very hard. The Sword of the Meek combo might be fine in Modern, but I think it's still a bit too oppressive for Wizard's vision of the format. Perhaps it will come off the list, but I tend to think not.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
That's pretty subjective though. A lot of things that are going on in Modern can be considered neither fun nor fair and yet people can live with that.
I wasn't trying very hard. The Sword of the Meek combo might be fine in Modern, but I think it's still a bit too oppressive for Wizard's vision of the format. Perhaps it will come off the list, but I tend to think not.
To be honest it's hard to tell what Wizards "vision" of the format even is.
They may state that they want to have 3-4 viable decks of every archetype and yet they don't do much to fix that despite having the power to do so by reprinting cards or making new ones or banning or unbanning cards.
That's pretty subjective though. A lot of things that are going on in Modern can be considered neither fun nor fair and yet people can live with that.
I wasn't trying very hard. The Sword of the Meek combo might be fine in Modern, but I think it's still a bit too oppressive for Wizard's vision of the format. Perhaps it will come off the list, but I tend to think not.
To be honest it's hard to tell what Wizards "vision" of the format even is.
They may state that they want to have 3-4 viable decks of every archetype and yet they don't do much to fix that despite having the power to do so by reprinting cards or making new ones or banning or unbanning cards.
To be fair to wizards, I understand that it's not a priority for the company and I think it's a little harder than a reprint here or an unban there. I don't reallllly think there's any unbans that would completely fix the issue and reprints have to go through standard. Being both a standard and modern player, I don't like the idea of sacrificing a year of standard to have certain pushed cards in modern. A good example of this is that while I'm glad mutavaults price went down, i coulda lived without that in standard. I feel with reprints it kinda snowballs, if it's a truly powerful card usually they have to balance the format around it and that kinda snowballs into taking over the set rather allowing them to take a new creative direction. Anyway that's just my two cents, point is I pretty much agree with the banlist with some notable exceptions and understand that modern is not wizards priority (and lastly, appreciate them not taking risks with the format by keeping power houses such as jace banned.
That's pretty subjective though. A lot of things that are going on in Modern can be considered neither fun nor fair and yet people can live with that.
I wasn't trying very hard. The Sword of the Meek combo might be fine in Modern, but I think it's still a bit too oppressive for Wizard's vision of the format. Perhaps it will come off the list, but I tend to think not.
To be honest it's hard to tell what Wizards "vision" of the format even is.
They may state that they want to have 3-4 viable decks of every archetype and yet they don't do much to fix that despite having the power to do so by reprinting cards or making new ones or banning or unbanning cards.
To be fair to wizards, I understand that it's not a priority for the company and I think it's a little harder than a reprint here or an unban there. I don't reallllly think there's any unbans that would completely fix the issue and reprints have to go through standard. Being both a standard and modern player, I don't like the idea of sacrificing a year of standard to have certain pushed cards in modern. A good example of this is that while I'm glad mutavaults price went down, i coulda lived without that in standard. I feel with reprints it kinda snowballs, if it's a truly powerful card usually they have to balance the format around it and that kinda snowballs into taking over the set rather allowing them to take a new creative direction. Anyway that's just my two cents, point is I pretty much agree with the banlist with some notable exceptions and understand that modern is not wizards priority (and lastly, appreciate them not taking risks with the format by keeping power houses such as jace banned.
See but here is the thing. That cards have to go through Standard is a completely arbitrary thing in the first place.
Wizards could at any time make special sets just for Modern like Modern Masters just with new cards or reprints of older non-legal cards in them and that would be perfectly fine.
It's not like having cards going through Standard is acting as a safety valve. I mean Treasure Cruise doesn't do much in Standard but look what the card did to Modern, Legacy and even Vintage.
See but here is the thing. That cards have to go through Standard is a completely arbitrary thing in the first place.
Wizards could at any time make special sets just for Modern like Modern Masters just with new cards or reprints of older non-legal cards in them and that would be perfectly fine.
The problem is that if they did that, then they look awfully stupid if they print a card that turns out to be overpowered. Something like Deathrite Shaman they can always say it was only playtested for Standard and that was the format it was made for, but put that into a set deliberately made for Modern and things get a lot more problematic.
It's not like having cards going through Standard is acting as a safety valve. I mean Treasure Cruise doesn't do much in Standard but look what the card did to Modern, Legacy and even Vintage.
I think Treasure Cruise would see more play in Standard if it didn't have the vastly superior Dig Through Time to compete with. Still wouldn't be as big a powerhouse as in other formats, but right not in Standard the decks that might want to run it would just rather play Dig Through Time.
The problem is that if they did that, then they look awfully stupid if they print a card that turns out to be overpowered. Something like Deathrite Shaman they can always say it was only playtested for Standard and that was the format it was made for, but put that into a set deliberately made for Modern and things get a lot more problematic.
Well that would be nothing new for them. True-Name Nemesis says hi. Wizards didn't get burned down and Legacy is still alive too.
I think Treasure Cruise would see more play in Standard if it didn't have the vastly superior Dig Through Time to compete with. Still wouldn't be as big a powerhouse as in other formats, but right not in Standard the decks that might want to run it would just rather play Dig Through Time.
Well you already mentioned Deathrite Shaman as another card that didn't do much in Standard either. "Most powerful and broken one-drop ever" and "one-mana planeswalker" was surely not what the card was in Standard. Young Pyromancer didn't make big waves in Standard either it it's time. Griselbrand is a ridiculous creature. Just not in Standard.
That's why having cards go through Standard is kinda irrelevant when it comes to how the cards play out in other formats and if they are broken or not.
The problem is that if they did that, then they look awfully stupid if they print a card that turns out to be overpowered. Something like Deathrite Shaman they can always say it was only playtested for Standard and that was the format it was made for, but put that into a set deliberately made for Modern and things get a lot more problematic.
Well that would be nothing new for them. True-Name Nemesis says hi. Wizards didn't get burned down and Legacy is still alive too.
True-Name Nemesis was not made in a product explicitly made for Legacy. It was for Commander. Sure, it saw a lot of play in Legacy, but they weren't marked "Legacy decks" they were marked "Commander decks." Also, True-Name Nemesis wasn't bad enough to ban in Legacy.
Now, if True-Name Nemesis was broken in Commander and required banning in that format, that would be another story.
At any rate, worries about screwing up the format in sets explicitly designed for that format is apparently the reason they've given for not making specialized non-Standard sets for Modern (not counting reprint-only sets like Modern Masters).
See but here is the thing. That cards have to go through Standard is a completely arbitrary thing in the first place.
Wizards could at any time make special sets just for Modern like Modern Masters just with new cards or reprints of older non-legal cards in them and that would be perfectly fine.
It's not like having cards going through Standard is acting as a safety valve. I mean Treasure Cruise doesn't do much in Standard but look what the card did to Modern, Legacy and even Vintage.
It is not arbitrary. How long after Wotc makes that said set you are talking about before the masses start calling for all the special sets to be Modern legal. Think how confusing it would be for some with certain extra sets Modern legal, others not?
On a side note I hope they never go the route you are speaking of. I think it would hurt the format more then help it.
Here we go agaain.... Treasure Cruise does not desserve to be banned and Delver is not the deck to beat, stop acting so traumatized by a fad deck.
You tell me "lol, you can't beat Pod? stop playing Burn and play a real deck". I tell you "lol, you can't beat Delver? Stop playing American Control and play a real deck".
Regading Jace. I don't believe he would be OP in Modern.
Most of you see Jace and think of CAW Blade. CAW Blade wouldn't work in Modern because 1.- Jace doesn't have an OP 2cmc tutor to bounce. 2.- Bouncing opponent creatures in Modern is actually dangerous. 3.- A single sword cannot neutralize a whole deck they way it did in T2. 4.- The birds are extremely easy to hate out.
The only part of the CAW Blade plan that's as strong in Modern as it was in T2 is Batterskull and he loses a lot of impact by not being able to CITP turn 3.
Now in Legacy 3 decks go out of their way to play Jace:
Blade Decks: Again, no Stoneforge, and no ultra-reliable creatures (True-Name Nemesis) to equip. Not to mention no Jitte.
Miracles: Jace is extremely powerful in Miracles because of the CounterTop soft-lock. His +2 acts both as a tightening of the lock and a wincon on it's own. This wouldn't work in Modern because on top of not having Top, Modern actually has a pretty open mana curve. Counterbalance would fold to almost everything in BGx and Tron, and most probably wouln't be able to counter Pod and Scapeshift, so they would depend in normal counterspells and we know already that plan doesn't work against the huge threat-density and diversity of Modern.
BUG Decks: Here Jace excels in board control to let Tarmos through and top-deck stacking for Ancestral Visions abuse. This is the deck I believe Jace entering Modern would bring into life, but it would be nowhere near as powerful as it is in Modern because of the lack of Hymn to Tourach and Deathrite Shaman. Turn 2 Lili, turn 3 Jace is backbreaking. Turn 3 Lili turn 4 Jace is bearable, and to most fast decks (Twin, Scapeshift, Burn, Affinity) it's even laughable.
I believe Jace is banned mostly because of his T2 infamy. In Modern he would only be as powerful as the cards around him and while Liliana and Jace in the board at the same time could be lethal, a format where 50% of decks play 3+ Lightning Bolt and control barely shows up as a playable archetype. shouldn't be defined by planeswalkers.
See but here is the thing. That cards have to go through Standard is a completely arbitrary thing in the first place.
Wizards could at any time make special sets just for Modern like Modern Masters just with new cards or reprints of older non-legal cards in them and that would be perfectly fine.
It's not like having cards going through Standard is acting as a safety valve. I mean Treasure Cruise doesn't do much in Standard but look what the card did to Modern, Legacy and even Vintage.
It is not arbitrary. How long after Wotc makes that said set you are talking about before the masses start calling for all the special sets to be Modern legal. Think how confusing it would be for some with certain extra sets Modern legal, others not?
On a side note I hope they never go the route you are speaking of. I think it would hurt the format more then help it.
How confusing would it be if they made a set called Modern Masters, which contained new cards that were modern legal? I mean it has Modern in the name.....
Literally the format could be X set forward including any special set with the name Modern.... its not hard at all.
On BAN talk; AV and BBE i think are safe to be unbanned (AV was always a safe unban, shouldnt have been banned in the first place and no one is playing GR that isnt combo, so maybe it will open it up again)
TC is going the way of the dodo bird, DTT might follow but i wouldnt be surprised if they left it to see what happens with TC getting banned
Hmmm I think the increase Jace talk is rather interesting I personally dont think its broken in modern, its not really splash able like ponder or preordain and while its certainly powerful id be very surprised if its used in more than 2 or 3 decks. Control would love it but lets see what a hopeful ancestral visions urban does.
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SonofaBith - Wizards was so excited about making the packaging for Modern Masters 2 recyclable, they decided to make most of the rares and all but 1 of the UC's recycle-bin ready too. Convenient!
Virtually everyone here agrees that Delver and Pod should be on the watchlist as being potentially hurtful to the format now or in the foreseeable future. That doesn't mean we think the decks need a BanSlap though.
NOTE: This post isn't meant to represent everyone who posts on this forum, but merely to express the most commonly held/supported opinions.
As to your second question of whether Jace is safe.... No one knows. Its an absurdly powerful card. Modern might be able to handle Jace, or not.
A similar comment to this, do people think there is any merit in making a strawpoll with the current discussed card options for people here to vote on if they want to see it banned/unbanned? That way maybe we can see what the majority of the thread agrees with/disagrees with?
Prob no changes in the ban list on the next announcement, a new deck archtype is always welcomed as the initial surge of players that pick up delver/tc based deck wanes or people start adapting to the new meta everything will return to normal.
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Standard : What is Stand-tart
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
See but here is the thing. That cards have to go through Standard is a completely arbitrary thing in the first place.
Wizards could at any time make special sets just for Modern like Modern Masters just with new cards or reprints of older non-legal cards in them and that would be perfectly fine.
It's not like having cards going through Standard is acting as a safety valve. I mean Treasure Cruise doesn't do much in Standard but look what the card did to Modern, Legacy and even Vintage.
It is not arbitrary. How long after Wotc makes that said set you are talking about before the masses start calling for all the special sets to be Modern legal. Think how confusing it would be for some with certain extra sets Modern legal, others not?
On a side note I hope they never go the route you are speaking of. I think it would hurt the format more then help it.
How confusing would it be if they made a set called Modern Masters, which contained new cards that were modern legal? I mean it has Modern in the name.....
Literally the format could be X set forward including any special set with the name Modern.... its not hard at all.
On BAN talk; AV and BBE i think are safe to be unbanned (AV was always a safe unban, shouldnt have been banned in the first place and no one is playing GR that isnt combo, so maybe it will open it up again)
TC is going the way of the dodo bird, DTT might follow but i wouldnt be surprised if they left it to see what happens with TC getting banned
We have people now that dont understand why the Commander sets are not legal. Now you are going to add an off set that is legal, it is going to really complicate things more...
Here is something people seem to be failing to consider: when it comes to the banlist, perceived reality is more important than reality. 99% of Magic players don't get to see the incredible data we have, so if the majority of players are living in fear of TC and Delver, TC will be banned. Pod is seen by the community as a whole as a pillar of the format, but UR Delver is the scary OP newcomer.
Here is something people seem to be failing to consider: when it comes to the banlist, perceived reality is more important than reality. 99% of Magic players don't get to see the incredible data we have, so if the majority of players are living in fear of TC and Delver, TC will be banned. Pod is seen by the community as a whole as a pillar of the format, but UR Delver is the scary OP newcomer.
I really don't think they ban purely on opinion like that. MOST of their past bans have been reasonable, excluding the initial bans which many of which were pure fear/wanting the format to not be like extended.
Well, I think Ponder and Preordain were banned mostly due to its card selection factor other than the card drawing one. I don't think that cantrips per se (be it Gitaxian Probe, Abundant Growth or Chromatic Sphere) are on the table for bannings. That's because I guess Cantrips can be seen as either selective or non-selective.
What I'd call a Selective Cantrip involves an effect that allows the player to dig his deck to pick an adequate answer to a given situation. Ponder and Preordain remain banned due to this, as they would increase the consistency of Combo decks' draws. Serum Visions, though, is slower - its selection is available only on the following turn, what makes it weaker than the banned ones.
Sleight of Hand and Telling Time, while give immediate selection, have much narrower effects, and provide less "collateral advantage" than Ponder's shuffle or Preordain's Scrying BEFORE the draw. The same can be said of Peer Through Depths.
Non-Selective Cantrips, on the other hand, merely replace themselves on your hand in a quantitative manner. It relies solely on your deck's own consistency in order to provide you the resources you need. This is true for Abundand Growth, Cerulean Wisps etc. Note that Serum Visions's draw is non-selective, which is why it (probably/hopefully) won't be banned. Gitaxian Probe fits in this group, leading me to think that WotC probably won't ban it.
Yyyeeeeeaaaahh... I hadn't thought of it that way.
Edit:
dat Christmasland tho
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Magical Chanukah Land. They don't use Runechanter's Pike and that would be much better.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Long answer: Heck no.
Okay. So what happens in the extremely likely chance that Sword of the Meek doesn't end up in the graveyard when you cast Thought Scour? Or you don't have the Thought Scour?
It requires everything to line up perfectly (it has to be in the top 2 cards of your library and you have to cast the Thought Scour then and you have to have a 1/1, which isn't that impressive if your creatures are Monastery Swiftspear and Snapcaster Mage), and all you get for your efforts is a +1/+2 on one of your creatures. In any situation where you don't have a Thought Scour or Thought Scour doesn't hit the Sword of the Meek or you don't have an unflipped Delver/Young Pyromancer token, which is like 95+% of situations, you'd be better off with Manriki-Gusari. Delver decks sure as heck aren't playing that card, so why would they play a card that's worse than that almost all of the time?
Well, Runechanter's Pike works poorly with TC. Thus, it will never be used in delver for the moment.
Thanks for the clarification. Just want to make sure this unban will not bring up delver anymore.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
Using CAPS is spamming?? I was unaware. Apparently so was ktkenshinx, and he's a mod.
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Gitaxian Probe getting banned is more silly talk. It breaks no rules, and does nothing of particular note besides synergizing well with strategies that want to cast lots of spells.
Sword of the Meek is not a Delver card, and never will be. It would probably oppress Delver pretty well, but I doubt they release this combo into Modern right now. It's not exactly fun or fair once it gets going.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
That's pretty subjective though. A lot of things that are going on in Modern can be considered neither fun nor fair and yet people can live with that.
Honestly, you are comparing apples and oranges, you are using a completely different format to justify ThoperSword being ok.
Exaggerating, we could in the same way use Legacy and say that most of the banned cards would actually be fine. But alas, that is a completely different format with a very different card pool. As extended was.
Okay, in what way would you manage the argument that Legacy shows cards on the banned list in Modern would be fine? I'm genuinely curious. You can't say "well they're okay in Legacy" because Legacy is a higher power format. Legacy could, however, be used as an argument for banning cards in Modern, with the rationale that if a card is able to stand up to Legacy's power, it could be considered too good for Modern.
I wasn't trying very hard. The Sword of the Meek combo might be fine in Modern, but I think it's still a bit too oppressive for Wizard's vision of the format. Perhaps it will come off the list, but I tend to think not.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
To be honest it's hard to tell what Wizards "vision" of the format even is.
They may state that they want to have 3-4 viable decks of every archetype and yet they don't do much to fix that despite having the power to do so by reprinting cards or making new ones or banning or unbanning cards.
To be fair to wizards, I understand that it's not a priority for the company and I think it's a little harder than a reprint here or an unban there. I don't reallllly think there's any unbans that would completely fix the issue and reprints have to go through standard. Being both a standard and modern player, I don't like the idea of sacrificing a year of standard to have certain pushed cards in modern. A good example of this is that while I'm glad mutavaults price went down, i coulda lived without that in standard. I feel with reprints it kinda snowballs, if it's a truly powerful card usually they have to balance the format around it and that kinda snowballs into taking over the set rather allowing them to take a new creative direction. Anyway that's just my two cents, point is I pretty much agree with the banlist with some notable exceptions and understand that modern is not wizards priority (and lastly, appreciate them not taking risks with the format by keeping power houses such as jace banned.
See but here is the thing. That cards have to go through Standard is a completely arbitrary thing in the first place.
Wizards could at any time make special sets just for Modern like Modern Masters just with new cards or reprints of older non-legal cards in them and that would be perfectly fine.
It's not like having cards going through Standard is acting as a safety valve. I mean Treasure Cruise doesn't do much in Standard but look what the card did to Modern, Legacy and even Vintage.
I think Treasure Cruise would see more play in Standard if it didn't have the vastly superior Dig Through Time to compete with. Still wouldn't be as big a powerhouse as in other formats, but right not in Standard the decks that might want to run it would just rather play Dig Through Time.
Well that would be nothing new for them. True-Name Nemesis says hi. Wizards didn't get burned down and Legacy is still alive too.
Well you already mentioned Deathrite Shaman as another card that didn't do much in Standard either. "Most powerful and broken one-drop ever" and "one-mana planeswalker" was surely not what the card was in Standard.
Young Pyromancer didn't make big waves in Standard either it it's time.
Griselbrand is a ridiculous creature. Just not in Standard.
That's why having cards go through Standard is kinda irrelevant when it comes to how the cards play out in other formats and if they are broken or not.
Now, if True-Name Nemesis was broken in Commander and required banning in that format, that would be another story.
At any rate, worries about screwing up the format in sets explicitly designed for that format is apparently the reason they've given for not making specialized non-Standard sets for Modern (not counting reprint-only sets like Modern Masters).
It is not arbitrary. How long after Wotc makes that said set you are talking about before the masses start calling for all the special sets to be Modern legal. Think how confusing it would be for some with certain extra sets Modern legal, others not?
On a side note I hope they never go the route you are speaking of. I think it would hurt the format more then help it.
You tell me "lol, you can't beat Pod? stop playing Burn and play a real deck". I tell you "lol, you can't beat Delver? Stop playing American Control and play a real deck".
Regading Jace. I don't believe he would be OP in Modern.
Most of you see Jace and think of CAW Blade. CAW Blade wouldn't work in Modern because 1.- Jace doesn't have an OP 2cmc tutor to bounce. 2.- Bouncing opponent creatures in Modern is actually dangerous. 3.- A single sword cannot neutralize a whole deck they way it did in T2. 4.- The birds are extremely easy to hate out.
The only part of the CAW Blade plan that's as strong in Modern as it was in T2 is Batterskull and he loses a lot of impact by not being able to CITP turn 3.
Now in Legacy 3 decks go out of their way to play Jace:
Blade Decks: Again, no Stoneforge, and no ultra-reliable creatures (True-Name Nemesis) to equip. Not to mention no Jitte.
Miracles: Jace is extremely powerful in Miracles because of the CounterTop soft-lock. His +2 acts both as a tightening of the lock and a wincon on it's own. This wouldn't work in Modern because on top of not having Top, Modern actually has a pretty open mana curve. Counterbalance would fold to almost everything in BGx and Tron, and most probably wouln't be able to counter Pod and Scapeshift, so they would depend in normal counterspells and we know already that plan doesn't work against the huge threat-density and diversity of Modern.
BUG Decks: Here Jace excels in board control to let Tarmos through and top-deck stacking for Ancestral Visions abuse. This is the deck I believe Jace entering Modern would bring into life, but it would be nowhere near as powerful as it is in Modern because of the lack of Hymn to Tourach and Deathrite Shaman. Turn 2 Lili, turn 3 Jace is backbreaking. Turn 3 Lili turn 4 Jace is bearable, and to most fast decks (Twin, Scapeshift, Burn, Affinity) it's even laughable.
I believe Jace is banned mostly because of his T2 infamy. In Modern he would only be as powerful as the cards around him and while Liliana and Jace in the board at the same time could be lethal, a format where 50% of decks play 3+ Lightning Bolt and control barely shows up as a playable archetype. shouldn't be defined by planeswalkers.
How confusing would it be if they made a set called Modern Masters, which contained new cards that were modern legal? I mean it has Modern in the name.....
Literally the format could be X set forward including any special set with the name Modern.... its not hard at all.
On BAN talk; AV and BBE i think are safe to be unbanned (AV was always a safe unban, shouldnt have been banned in the first place and no one is playing GR that isnt combo, so maybe it will open it up again)
TC is going the way of the dodo bird, DTT might follow but i wouldnt be surprised if they left it to see what happens with TC getting banned
GW Rhys the Redeemed EDH
RUGAnimar, Soul of Elements EDH
WBRAlesha, Who Smiles at Death EDH
A similar comment to this, do people think there is any merit in making a strawpoll with the current discussed card options for people here to vote on if they want to see it banned/unbanned? That way maybe we can see what the majority of the thread agrees with/disagrees with?
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU
We have people now that dont understand why the Commander sets are not legal. Now you are going to add an off set that is legal, it is going to really complicate things more...
I really don't think they ban purely on opinion like that. MOST of their past bans have been reasonable, excluding the initial bans which many of which were pure fear/wanting the format to not be like extended.