To all the people defending Kitchen Finks and calling a ban of it ridiculous: Let me show you what this seemingly innocent little Ouphe actually is.
Kitchen Finks looks like a very balanced card at first glance. A 3/2 for 3 with a sudden board impact, however small, and a second ability? Seems fair.
The problem lies in the mentioned second ability. What does persist actually make out of the Finks? Yes, you got it: This card is actually a 5/4 for 3 mana that gains you 4 life. This is comparable to Siege Rhino. Or Thragtusk. The deal is just that Finks costs significantly less mana than the latter and unlike both of them, it can be slammes down on turn 2 with a dork.
Now, is Finks still a balanced card to you? I think this card's power level literally screams for a ban.
That literally makes no sense whatsoever.
The problem with Finks in Pod is that it both provides life and repeated pod activations for 4-drops. Without the lifegain, they have to pay a significant amount of life to abuse it. Without the ability to persist, then be reset by resto angel, it doesn't let them build up their board and generate card advantage. It's both together that makes it so good. With just a kitchen finks, a pod, and a land, you can:
- Pod finks for resto angel
- Pod finks again for siege rhino
- Pod finks a third time for another rhino, then
- Pod any one of those into a thragtusk/archangel of thune/whatever else.
And you can't just kill it either if you aren't in white because it'll just persist back and then you've wasted your removal while they pod it for a rhino and beat your face in. Without a finks the pod player can only upgrade their creatures slightly, which is a lot less dangerous and usually won't generate card advantage.
It's basically a 2-card combo that almost always wins you the game, except both cards are already insanely strong on their own. I see it as comparable to the sword of the meek/thopter foundry engine.
You could ban pod, but that would kill the deck entirely.
Banning finks would make pod weaker but likely still playable. You can still play Aven Riftwatcher and easily handle delver, just not with the additional ability to use that same creature to play multiple four drops for 1 mana each.
Or, you could decide it's fair and unban sword/foundry to give other color combos a similarly effective engine.
To all the people defending Kitchen Finks and calling a ban of it ridiculous: Let me show you what this seemingly innocent little Ouphe actually is.
Kitchen Finks looks like a very balanced card at first glance. A 3/2 for 3 with a sudden board impact, however small, and a second ability? Seems fair.
The problem lies in the mentioned second ability. What does persist actually make out of the Finks? Yes, you got it: This card is actually a 5/4 for 3 mana that gains you 4 life. This is comparable to Siege Rhino. Or Thragtusk. The deal is just that Finks costs significantly less mana than the latter and unlike both of them, it can be slammes down on turn 2 with a dork.
Now, is Finks still a balanced card to you? I think this card's power level literally screams for a ban.
These sorts of purely theoretical and rhetorical arguments are the bane of this thread. Modern is a format full of powerful cards. Bolt! Path! Snapcaster! Decay! Goyf! Bob! Cards aren't banned for being powerful, with the exception of the bans made before the format was even piloted (any ban made before PT Philly). Cards are banned because of how they affect the metagame, which means arguments for card bannings need to be supported with metagme data. Rewriting cards to fit a personal agenda (e.g. Finks is actually a 3 mana 5/4 that gains you 4 life) is often the most disingenuous way that someone can force a point. It's maybe fine to start your argument that way, provided that it is eventually supported with some real evidence. But if that's the extent of an argument, that's a problem.
Moreover, if anything ever gets banned from Pod, it will almost certainly be Pod itself. One need only look at the Legacy example of Survival of the Fittest for evidence of that. Thankfully, there isn't a lot of data to demand a Pod ban. There are certainly arguments that can be made with the data we have, but they are by no means the nail in the Pod.
I'll even put one out there just to help out the ban-Pod camp!
In the past three ban update periods (April-July, July-September, September-January), Pod has had the most Grand Prix T8 finishes of any deck in Modern. That is true both of any discrete period, and looking at all three periods collectively. Looking at the GP data, Melira/Junk Pod has 11 T8 finishes. Affinity, the next closest, only has 6, followed by Burn with 3. So although Pod might not be the most-prevalent deck in the overall metagame, it might be the "best" overall, purely based on its T8 performances!
(obviously this argument has more than a few holes to attack, but I at least want something out there that isn't pure rhetoric and grandstanding)
... This issue has arisen before: Stoneforge Mystic had to bite the bullet to open up Equipment design space. Will Birthing Pod go the direction of the lithomancer?
Yeah, there is a ton of equipment in use in Modern... oh wait, the best that could be used are all banned. They banned the enabler AND the equipment. But left batterskull, probably an oversight, or maybe just because it actually comes to one of their beloved creatures attached.
Yeah, banning Finks is silly talk, most of us know this. Finks is simply a decent midrange creature on it's own, and it's value can be mitigated by stuff like Path to Exile, Rest in Peace, or Scavenging Ooze. Even as an inherent 2-for-1, it's not particularly scary for any deck to deal with outside of Zoo and Burn. Siege Rhino is an arguably better standalone threat for an extra mana. The problem with Finks in Birthing Pod decks is of course the interaction with Birthing Pod itself. It's the core of their deck, and the reason the deck is so good, since it turns the frontside Finks into an real actual threat, i.e. a 4-drop. But again, the offender is Pod, not Finks. Without Pod in the format, Finks would simply be a random card that people might SB for aggressive matchups, or occasionally run maindeck when the meta is right. But it would be far from oppressive. Again, just like people have said, look at Stoneforge Mystic or Survival of the Fittest for prior examples. Vengevine and Batterskull are fine without them, it's the tutor and synergy with the engine card that makes them broken.
ktkenshinx said it best, and I agree with his points. Pod is close to being oppressive, but I believe it is still fine. Maybe WOTC will do something creative to shake up the format this time, maybe they will simply ban a selection of the obvious cards on the radar, namely:
I would prefer to see them unban a few things as well as the perhaps necessary Treasure Cruise ban, but I personally would be fine if they left everything else on the above list alone for at least another season. Time will tell.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
The problem with Pod is it's only going to get better and better due to Wizard's current design direction. If they stick to their current thinking we'll never see Counterspell or another four mana Wrath of God effect, but we're sure to see a constant influx of very strong creatures. It's in a similar position to Burn: eventually the deck will hit a critical mass and take over the metagame. We already saw that happen with Burn and decks like Pod and Junk rose from the ashes to fight it with Seige Rhino. Now Pod is likely the deck to beat and we're all thinking of ways to deal with our new overlord. This is not necessarily a bad thing; a cyclical metagame is bound to appear in a somewhat stable format. The danger is when the deck hits that critical mass and the other decks can't fight it back down. Pod will get to that point. The questions are how and when do you address it?
The card isn't at ban-levels of danger right now, but should we nip the problem at the bud before more people get invested in the deck? Or do we wait until it's truly dominant then alienate 20-25% of the metagame with a ban? Do we ban Birthing Pod itself and destroy the archetype as a whole? Or do we make band-aid fixes and ban every new toy it gets to prevent it from taking over?
Pod is a dangerous card not because it's currently dominant, but because it almost certainly will be due to design direction. This issue has arisen before: Stoneforge Mystic had to bite the bullet to open up Equipment design space. Will Birthing Pod go the direction of the lithomancer?
I'd love to see the return of Phrexian mana since there's so much room for interesting and impactful modern cards. I'd love to see a "counter target spell" for UU(U/P)or UU(U/P)(U/P) or something like that
... This issue has arisen before: Stoneforge Mystic had to bite the bullet to open up Equipment design space. Will Birthing Pod go the direction of the lithomancer?
Yeah, there is a ton of equipment in use in Modern... oh wait, the best that could be used are all banned. They banned the enabler AND the equipment. But left batterskull, probably an oversight, or maybe just because it actually comes to one of their beloved creatures attached.
I wouldn't bet on that. Here's an excerpt from this article on Stoneforge's banning in Standard:
I contend that without a way to cheat it out, Batterskull is merely a good card, not a ridiculous one, which is why it wasn't on the table for banning (though admittedly it, too, had a late development change that made it better and that I regret to a degree). The "Caw-Blade" deck was putting up insane results before the card existed, so it's hard to blame it for the imbalance. The card that breaks the rules—Stoneforge Mystic—is the culprit, and my takeaway is that Tinker effects are unsafe and present tough constraints on all future cards. I guess that should have been more obvious at the time.
Given that quote it's not really difficult to find some justification that Wizards may use in the future to ban Birthing Pod as well.
To all the people defending Kitchen Finks and calling a ban of it ridiculous: Let me show you what this seemingly innocent little Ouphe actually is.
Kitchen Finks looks like a very balanced card at first glance. A 3/2 for 3 with a sudden board impact, however small, and a second ability? Seems fair.
The problem lies in the mentioned second ability. What does persist actually make out of the Finks? Yes, you got it: This card is actually a 5/4 for 3 mana that gains you 4 life. This is comparable to Siege Rhino. Or Thragtusk. The deal is just that Finks costs significantly less mana than the latter and unlike both of them, it can be slammes down on turn 2 with a dork.
Now, is Finks still a balanced card to you? I think this card's power level literally screams for a ban.
That makes literally no sense. It is a 3/2 that leaves behind a 2/1. By your logic Reef Worm is a 4 mana 18/19. Since that is not the case, it is clear to me that you either are trolling or have very little Magic knowledge. I hope that it is the latter.
Since everyone is so eager to ban TC/pod, what about unban jace? Can jace be used in modern without killing the format?
This is what I propose couple of pages before. If you do not ban TC, fine, please give other control/midrange decks some tools to fight against delver.
For control: AV is probably not enough, Jace is more useful
For midrange: BBE can at least bring Jund and ZOO back again
However, I am almost 100% sure that Jace will not be unbanned for many other reasons. Therefor, TC will most likely be banned in the future.
Pod might be banned in the future too, but it means Modern will lose two decks completely (Melira Pod and Kiki Pod). This is sad to me.
To all the people defending Kitchen Finks and calling a ban of it ridiculous: Let me show you what this seemingly innocent little Ouphe actually is.
Kitchen Finks looks like a very balanced card at first glance. A 3/2 for 3 with a sudden board impact, however small, and a second ability? Seems fair.
The problem lies in the mentioned second ability. What does persist actually make out of the Finks? Yes, you got it: This card is actually a 5/4 for 3 mana that gains you 4 life. This is comparable to Siege Rhino. Or Thragtusk. The deal is just that Finks costs significantly less mana than the latter and unlike both of them, it can be slammes down on turn 2 with a dork.
Now, is Finks still a balanced card to you? I think this card's power level literally screams for a ban.
That makes literally no sense. It is a 3/2 that leaves behind a 2/1. By your logic Reef Worm is a 4 mana 18/19. Since that is not the case, it is clear to me that you either are trolling or have very little Magic knowledge. I hope that it is the latter.
Since everyone is so eager to ban TC/pod, what about unban jace? Can jace be used in modern without killing the format?
This is what I propose couple of pages before. If you do not ban TC, fine, please give other control/midrange decks some tools to fight against delver.
For control: AV is probably not enough, Jace is more useful
For midrange: BBE can at least bring Jund and ZOO back again
However, I am almost 100% sure that Jace will not be unbanned for many other reasons. Therefor, TC will most likely be banned in the future.
Pod might be banned in the future too, but it means Modern will lose two decks completely (Melira Pod and Kiki Pod). This is sad to me.
To all the people defending Kitchen Finks and calling a ban of it ridiculous: Let me show you what this seemingly innocent little Ouphe actually is.
Kitchen Finks looks like a very balanced card at first glance. A 3/2 for 3 with a sudden board impact, however small, and a second ability? Seems fair.
The problem lies in the mentioned second ability. What does persist actually make out of the Finks? Yes, you got it: This card is actually a 5/4 for 3 mana that gains you 4 life. This is comparable to Siege Rhino. Or Thragtusk. The deal is just that Finks costs significantly less mana than the latter and unlike both of them, it can be slammes down on turn 2 with a dork.
Now, is Finks still a balanced card to you? I think this card's power level literally screams for a ban.
That makes literally no sense. It is a 3/2 that leaves behind a 2/1. By your logic Reef Worm is a 4 mana 18/19. Since that is not the case, it is clear to me that you either are trolling or have very little Magic knowledge. I hope that it is the latter.
I have difficulty following his logic...
Why does control need more tools vs Delver? Its not bad tbh. Delver isnt like some unbeatable deck that everyone thinks it is
To all the people defending Kitchen Finks and calling a ban of it ridiculous: Let me show you what this seemingly innocent little Ouphe actually is.
Kitchen Finks looks like a very balanced card at first glance. A 3/2 for 3 with a sudden board impact, however small, and a second ability? Seems fair.
The problem lies in the mentioned second ability. What does persist actually make out of the Finks? Yes, you got it: This card is actually a 5/4 for 3 mana that gains you 4 life. This is comparable to Siege Rhino. Or Thragtusk. The deal is just that Finks costs significantly less mana than the latter and unlike both of them, it can be slammes down on turn 2 with a dork.
Now, is Finks still a balanced card to you? I think this card's power level literally screams for a ban.
That makes literally no sense. It is a 3/2 that leaves behind a 2/1. By your logic Reef Worm is a 4 mana 18/19. Since that is not the case, it is clear to me that you either are trolling or have very little Magic knowledge. I hope that it is the latter.
You have an avatar now?? EVERYTHING IS CHANGING!
Regarding Jace, it's always tough to evaluate cards that were never in the Modern card pool. On the one hand, JTMS definitely isn't going in any Siege Rhino decks. Or if it does, that deck is dealing about 10 damage to itself on the manabase alone, so I wouldn't be too worried about it. In that respect, JTMS would definitely fight against BGx Midrange and Pod prevalence. On the other hand, that's a really powerful card that has caused some serious warpage in previous formats. You would need to test that out a lot to try and prove its safety.
Since everyone is so eager to ban TC/pod, what about unban jace? Can jace be used in modern without killing the format?
This is what I propose couple of pages before. If you do not ban TC, fine, please give other control/midrange decks some tools to fight against delver.
For control: AV is probably not enough, Jace is more useful
For midrange: BBE can at least bring Jund and ZOO back again
However, I am almost 100% sure that Jace will not be unbanned for many other reasons. Therefor, TC will most likely be banned in the future.
Pod might be banned in the future too, but it means Modern will lose two decks completely (Melira Pod and Kiki Pod). This is sad to me.
To all the people defending Kitchen Finks and calling a ban of it ridiculous: Let me show you what this seemingly innocent little Ouphe actually is.
Kitchen Finks looks like a very balanced card at first glance. A 3/2 for 3 with a sudden board impact, however small, and a second ability? Seems fair.
The problem lies in the mentioned second ability. What does persist actually make out of the Finks? Yes, you got it: This card is actually a 5/4 for 3 mana that gains you 4 life. This is comparable to Siege Rhino. Or Thragtusk. The deal is just that Finks costs significantly less mana than the latter and unlike both of them, it can be slammes down on turn 2 with a dork.
Now, is Finks still a balanced card to you? I think this card's power level literally screams for a ban.
That makes literally no sense. It is a 3/2 that leaves behind a 2/1. By your logic Reef Worm is a 4 mana 18/19. Since that is not the case, it is clear to me that you either are trolling or have very little Magic knowledge. I hope that it is the latter.
I have difficulty following his logic...
Why does control need more tools vs Delver? Its not bad tbh. Delver isnt like some unbeatable deck that everyone thinks it is
I think that modern is like rock paper scissors. (Everyone's playing scissors ban it! Cuz were playing paper!) When they could just switch to rock lol but on a serious note if a dynamite deck takes off and beats almost everything it faces then bannings are in order. Aka jund with deathrite. That little shaman deserved to get banned he's just to powerful for modern. As for pod and treasure cruise....well they too are proving there domiNance. Wizards has made very good decisions in the bannings to keep the format alive and there's only so much to they can do. I guess we'll see soon what they have decided.
As for unbannings jace stone forge skullclamp should never come off there too powerful.
And a side note: of course opinions are biased on bans not every one owns all the top decks
, they can't just jump to another, once it falls out of favor.
And that's when banning becomes dangerous for the health of the format like ktkenshinx said
Since everyone is so eager to ban TC/pod, what about unban jace? Can jace be used in modern without killing the format?
This is what I propose couple of pages before. If you do not ban TC, fine, please give other control/midrange decks some tools to fight against delver.
For control: AV is probably not enough, Jace is more useful
For midrange: BBE can at least bring Jund and ZOO back again
However, I am almost 100% sure that Jace will not be unbanned for many other reasons. Therefor, TC will most likely be banned in the future.
Pod might be banned in the future too, but it means Modern will lose two decks completely (Melira Pod and Kiki Pod). This is sad to me.
To all the people defending Kitchen Finks and calling a ban of it ridiculous: Let me show you what this seemingly innocent little Ouphe actually is.
Kitchen Finks looks like a very balanced card at first glance. A 3/2 for 3 with a sudden board impact, however small, and a second ability? Seems fair.
The problem lies in the mentioned second ability. What does persist actually make out of the Finks? Yes, you got it: This card is actually a 5/4 for 3 mana that gains you 4 life. This is comparable to Siege Rhino. Or Thragtusk. The deal is just that Finks costs significantly less mana than the latter and unlike both of them, it can be slammes down on turn 2 with a dork.
Now, is Finks still a balanced card to you? I think this card's power level literally screams for a ban.
That makes literally no sense. It is a 3/2 that leaves behind a 2/1. By your logic Reef Worm is a 4 mana 18/19. Since that is not the case, it is clear to me that you either are trolling or have very little Magic knowledge. I hope that it is the latter.
I have difficulty following his logic...
Why does control need more tools vs Delver? Its not bad tbh. Delver isnt like some unbeatable deck that everyone thinks it is
what about this match? this is just game 1, but he LSV wins the match.
Wall of Omens might not be that great, and no Pyroclasms and only 1 Anger of the Gods total, how is that good? The format changed with Khans, and whenever a format changes, Control becomes hard to build because you have to stop them, they dont have to stop you. We just need to figure out the best builds for Control
Since everyone is so eager to ban TC/pod, what about unban jace? Can jace be used in modern without killing the format?
This is what I propose couple of pages before. If you do not ban TC, fine, please give other control/midrange decks some tools to fight against delver.
For control: AV is probably not enough, Jace is more useful
For midrange: BBE can at least bring Jund and ZOO back again
However, I am almost 100% sure that Jace will not be unbanned for many other reasons. Therefor, TC will most likely be banned in the future.
Pod might be banned in the future too, but it means Modern will lose two decks completely (Melira Pod and Kiki Pod). This is sad to me.
That makes literally no sense. It is a 3/2 that leaves behind a 2/1. By your logic Reef Worm is a 4 mana 18/19. Since that is not the case, it is clear to me that you either are trolling or have very little Magic knowledge. I hope that it is the latter.
I have difficulty following his logic...
Why does control need more tools vs Delver? Its not bad tbh. Delver isnt like some unbeatable deck that everyone thinks it is
what about this match? this is just game 1, but he LSV wins the match.
Wall of Omens might not be that great, and no Pyroclasms and only 1 Anger of the Gods total, how is that good? The format changed with Khans, and whenever a format changes, Control becomes hard to build because you have to stop them, they dont have to stop you. We just need to figure out the best builds for Control
I am not fully convinced by this deck until there are some good results shown in the tournament. However, at least LSV gives me a hope for the position of control in the current META. Thanks for sharing this link.
To all the people defending Kitchen Finks and calling a ban of it ridiculous: Let me show you what this seemingly innocent little Ouphe actually is.
Kitchen Finks looks like a very balanced card at first glance. A 3/2 for 3 with a sudden board impact, however small, and a second ability? Seems fair.
The problem lies in the mentioned second ability. What does persist actually make out of the Finks? Yes, you got it: This card is actually a 5/4 for 3 mana that gains you 4 life. This is comparable to Siege Rhino. Or Thragtusk. The deal is just that Finks costs significantly less mana than the latter and unlike both of them, it can be slammes down on turn 2 with a dork.
Now, is Finks still a balanced card to you? I think this card's power level literally screams for a ban.
These sorts of purely theoretical and rhetorical arguments are the bane of this thread. Modern is a format full of powerful cards. Bolt! Path! Snapcaster! Decay! Goyf! Bob! Cards aren't banned for being powerful, with the exception of the bans made before the format was even piloted (any ban made before PT Philly). Cards are banned because of how they affect the metagame, which means arguments for card bannings need to be supported with metagme data. Rewriting cards to fit a personal agenda (e.g. Finks is actually a 3 mana 5/4 that gains you 4 life) is often the most disingenuous way that someone can force a point. It's maybe fine to start your argument that way, provided that it is eventually supported with some real evidence. But if that's the extent of an argument, that's a Problem.
Yeah but Tron does bad vs Afinity, which is now on the rise, Delver and Burn. Pod can fair well vs any of those
Tron does not do badly versus Affinity if it's build right. 4x Oblivion Stone 4x Pyroclasm maindeck and 4x Nature's Claim in the sideboard actually make the matchup in Tron's favor.
Why does control need more tools vs Delver? Its not bad tbh. Delver isnt like some unbeatable deck that everyone thinks it is
Control doesn't need more tools vs Delver exactly. It just needs more tools in general.
The problem control has in Modern is that control's goal is to play the long game, then beat the opponent by being able to pull ahead as the game goes on. It means your early game is weak and you're vulnerable, but this is compensated for how good you get if you're able to hold on for long enough.
But control doesn't have the tools to do that because its late game cards aren't very good in Modern. Sphinx's Revelation served it well in Standard as the "this is how I pull ahead" card, but it's a lot less impressive in Modern. The format is faster and the lifegain, which was basically always relevant in Standard outside of the mirror, is utterly irrelevant against a number of Modern decks. You're paying 6 mana to draw 3 cards; hardly impressive. Dig Through Time can be cheaper to cast, but it doesn't offer that much raw card advantage and is more useful for decks like Scapeshift that are looking for particular cards (and also fill the graveyard more quickly). So why play the long game? You don't get much out of it. And you get better card advantage if you're playing a Treasure Cruise deck, which aims to win faster. Instead of getting better card advantage by playing slower with control, you're getting worse card advantage than the decks that want to win quickly!
It's easy to blame this on Treasure Cruise, but in all honesty control had this problem even before that card; Treasure Cruise just exacerbated it.
What control needs--badly--is something to give them incentive to play the long game that other decks aren't able to match. Sphinx's Revelation really isn't cutting it. There are several cards that can be unbanned to accomplish this: Ancestral Vision, Jace, and Sword of the Meek.
People know my position on Ancestral Vision: Ancestral Vision is a 100% safe unban that shouldn't have been banned to begin with. This card would give control much better card draw later in the game than Sphinx's Revelation. Additionally, it doesn't really help any other decks, because Ancestral Vision requires you to want to play the long game to get proper usage out of it. You won't be seeing UR Delver or Scapeshift playing that card. Ancestral Vision is a card that rewards playing the long game.
Jace: Repeatable Brainstorms and fate sealing lets you grind out card advantage. The Brainstorm is the obvious thing, but remember that fatesealing your opponent gives you virtual card advantage. It might not draw cards for you, but it denies them useful cards (while also adding a clock). He's more risky than Ancestral Vision because he's more versatile in the decks that he can go into, plus there's the potential problem of his price tag. At his current price he'd be the second most expensive card in Modern if unbanned, and he'd go way up if unbanned, possibly passing Tarmogoyf. Though honestly, talking about him is just academic at this point, as Aaron Forsythe stated he's not getting banned anytime soon.
Sword of the Meek: This one gives control a much better win condition. Right now it's stuff like Celestial Colonnade, which isn't that good. ThopterSword is a win condition that also doubles as a way to stay alive, gaining life and providing you with blockers. This could also enable some of those fringe Tezzeret decks. The usual argument made against this is that it hurts aggro, but... it's worth pointing out two things. First, aggro has gotten a big boost and is actually doing pretty well now, so it wouldn't be punishing an ailing archetype like it would have a year ago. Second, even back in Extended, aggro was a real thing when ThopterSword was around; Zoo was a pretty darn good deck. Also worth pointing out that ThopterSword had access to the Dark Depths combo and Chrome Mox back then, which it wouldn't in Modern. Admittedly, Zoo did have Bloodbraid Elf, but there's general agreement that card should be unbanned anyway.
Control really could use some help, and Ancestral Vision (a very safe unban) could help accomplish that. Sword of the Meek is slightly more chancy, but I think it's fairly safe as well.
To all the people defending Kitchen Finks and calling a ban of it ridiculous: Let me show you what this seemingly innocent little Ouphe actually is.
Kitchen Finks looks like a very balanced card at first glance. A 3/2 for 3 with a sudden board impact, however small, and a second ability? Seems fair.
The problem lies in the mentioned second ability. What does persist actually make out of the Finks? Yes, you got it: This card is actually a 5/4 for 3 mana that gains you 4 life. This is comparable to Siege Rhino. Or Thragtusk. The deal is just that Finks costs significantly less mana than the latter and unlike both of them, it can be slammes down on turn 2 with a dork.
Now, is Finks still a balanced card to you? I think this card's power level literally screams for a ban.
These sorts of purely theoretical and rhetorical arguments are the bane of this thread. Modern is a format full of powerful cards. Bolt! Path! Snapcaster! Decay! Goyf! Bob! Cards aren't banned for being powerful, with the exception of the bans made before the format was even piloted (any ban made before PT Philly). Cards are banned because of how they affect the metagame, which means arguments for card bannings need to be supported with metagme data. Rewriting cards to fit a personal agenda (e.g. Finks is actually a 3 mana 5/4 that gains you 4 life) is often the most disingenuous way that someone can force a point. It's maybe fine to start your argument that way, provided that it is eventually supported with some real evidence. But if that's the extent of an argument, that's a Problem.
Madmin lol
It's like you are fishing for infractions in this thread.
What control needs--badly--is something to give them incentive to play the long game that other decks aren't able to match. Sphinx's Revelation really isn't cutting it. There are several cards that can be unbanned to accomplish this: Ancestral Vision, Jace, and Sword of the Meek.
As you said, AV is a pretty obvious unban, and I fully expect it to be unbanned next update, either without any bans or as a trade for TC. This card will definitely help control, although it's unclear if that will be enough. My guess is that Wizards will unban AV and see how things go from there. If that doesn't help control, then maybe they unban something else down the road. I can't imagine they will unban Sword right now. It took Wizards over two years to get non-Affinity aggro into the format, and between MS and Rhino (let alone TC), we now have more than a few aggressive options that are becoming real format contenders. I doubt they risk undoing that with Sword.
Just adding a bit to the discussion (not the bashing).
Disclaimer: These are some of my conclusions regarding Modern's recent additions, rise and fall of some decks/archetypes and the banlist issue (therefore, everything IMHO)
URx Delver with Treasure Cruise is not as oppressive as I thought it would be a couple months ago. After checking some results, we can both consider that Delver's popularity is more related to its lower cost than to its effectiveness. Birthing Pod proceeds to achieve great results due to its ability to adapt against the current metagame, whereas its bad matchups have disappeared.
Dig Through Time, while adding a lot of consistency to a number of combo decks (namely Scapeshift and Splinter Twin), had smaller impact on the current meta than Treasure Cruise. It doesn't mean the card is weaker - it's actually pretty strong. The card itself is able to add more power to UWR Control/Midrange strategies, and could even make RUG/Esper-Control/Midrange viable. It's good, but not too good.
Jeskai Ascendancy Combo is tricky. While the 4C version (with mana dorks) certainly behaves like a glass cannon/all-in combo, with a set of vulnerabilities, whilst breaking the "turn 4 rule", the UWR version behaves more like a control-combo shell such as a controllish Splinter Twin or Scapeshift, which is fine. Regarding the 4C version, I like to compare it to Bloom Titan (godhand Turn 1 kill; consistent turn 3-4 goldfish combo), as both decks have the potential to present completely busted openings, but have a much better chance of going off by accumulating advantages through the board (multiple Amulet of Vigor, Jeskai Ascendancy, mana dorks, etc). So... I think it's fine?
I believe the current metagame share problem (URx Delver/BGx Pod/BGx Midrange) should be addressed not as a perpetual bashing between "ban card from Delver/ban card from BGx", but as a better vision of the whole. If "Pod is efficient against Delver; which is efficient against everything else", I believe the solution lies within enabling varied archetypes that could fight both Delver or Pod, at least with some consistence. The known bad-matchup against Pod is Tron, while against Delver, I could go with either Pod or anything running efficient disruption at the early stages of the game. What I really like is the idea of playing Volcanic Fallout, or even adding new sideboard techs against it. There are a lot of overlooked cards here and there.
Jund has been gone for quite some time, and I believe a deck that could play both Volcanic Fallout/Pyroclasm and Abrupt Decay could have some good results against Delver. Even the manabase has gotten better with the addition of KTK's fetchlands. The thing is Thoughtseize is now quite bad, and Liliana of the Veil is not very effective against neither Pod nor Delver. So, old Jund is gone - enter new Jund? Redder Jund?
Siege Rhino is a major powerhouse, much like Bloodbraid Elf was on the old days of Extended Jund. Jund mirrors were reduced to "who cascades better" as much as Abzan mirrors are a mix of "who draws the most Rhinos" and "who has more removal". Therefore, I think ubanning the Elf could be benefical to the format as a whole, since it adds significant power to RG/Jund/Temur/Naya-colored decks. Deathrite Shaman, on the other hand, should stay banned - since it'd power BGx shell as a whole - including Pod and current Abzan Midrange.
Punishing Fire would be too oppressive, IMO. I agree with pretty much everything that has been said against the card so far. Furthermore, this unban would (probably) wipe URx Delver from existence. And (while I hate it), I can't see it as something benefical to the format.
Sword of the Meek might be able to fuel some new archetypes...? I don't the like the sight of it, but it could work. Over the last years artifact removal has gotten better, as well as answers to graveyard recursion, lifegain and whatnot. What I don't like is the possibility of infinite turns using Time Sieve, but Johnnies gotta be Johnnies.
Ancestral Vision is a much slower Treasure Cruise that relies on your game plan being able to delay your opponent's victory. Unless if it's suspended on Turn 1. I could live with that - the whole "Draw three cards" thing should not be banalized, but I think having a small variety for such an effect should add more diversity.
Golgari Grave-Troll is an awesome card, and it didn't belong to the banned list - but I don't think it should be unbanned just yet. It might make Delve even better - which is a shame, the Troll is a fantastic dredger. But I suppose having both Troll and Stinkweed Imp could be... bad?
Virtually everyone here agrees that Delver and Pod should be on the watchlist as being potentially hurtful to the format now or in the foreseeable future. That doesn't mean we think the decks need a BanSlap though.
NOTE: This post isn't meant to represent everyone who posts on this forum, but merely to express the most commonly held/supported opinions.
As to your second question of whether Jace is safe.... No one knows. Its an absurdly powerful card. Modern might be able to handle Jace, or not.
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
To all the people defending Kitchen Finks and calling a ban of it ridiculous: Let me show you what this seemingly innocent little Ouphe actually is.
Kitchen Finks looks like a very balanced card at first glance. A 3/2 for 3 with a sudden board impact, however small, and a second ability? Seems fair.
The problem lies in the mentioned second ability. What does persist actually make out of the Finks? Yes, you got it: This card is actually a 5/4 for 3 mana that gains you 4 life. This is comparable to Siege Rhino. Or Thragtusk. The deal is just that Finks costs significantly less mana than the latter and unlike both of them, it can be slammes down on turn 2 with a dork.
Now, is Finks still a balanced card to you? I think this card's power level literally screams for a ban.
That makes literally no sense. It is a 3/2 that leaves behind a 2/1. By your logic Reef Worm is a 4 mana 18/19. Since that is not the case, it is clear to me that you either are trolling or have very little Magic knowledge. I hope that it is the latter.
EVERYTHING IS CHANGING!.
Stop using Caps Lock or I report you for spamming.
What control needs--badly--is something to give them incentive to play the long game that other decks aren't able to match. Sphinx's Revelation really isn't cutting it. There are several cards that can be unbanned to accomplish this: Ancestral Vision, Jace, and Sword of the Meek.
As you said, AV is a pretty obvious unban, and I fully expect it to be unbanned next update, either without any bans or as a trade for TC. This card will definitely help control, although it's unclear if that will be enough. My guess is that Wizards will unban AV and see how things go from there. If that doesn't help control, then maybe they unban something else down the road. I can't imagine they will unban Sword right now. It took Wizards over two years to get non-Affinity aggro into the format, and between MS and Rhino (let alone TC), we now have more than a few aggressive options that are becoming real format contenders. I doubt they risk undoing that with Sword.
Yeah, but like I noted, aggro (Zoo in particular) was actually doing just fine back in the format where ThopterDepths was the deck to beat.
Look at the Top 8's of Grand Prix Yokohama and Grand Prix Houston. As we can see by the propensity of ThopterSword/ThopterDepths decks, we can see that was a powerful deck. But we can also spy a few Zoo decks and also a WR Aggro deck. Obviously those decks were still able to do pretty well in a format where such an "aggro-killer" as ThopterSword was legal.
I suppose it's not unfair to point out that Zoo did have Umezawa's Jitte... but that's a bit compensated by the fact ThopterDepths was running Chrome Mox and Dark Depths. (and yes, Zoo did also have Bloodbraid Elf, but as I've stated repeatedly, the card should be unbanned)
While Extended was a different format, it does suggest to me that ThopterSword may not be the inherent killer of aggro in Modern that people are making it out to be.
Treasure Cruise - With Gitaxian Probe gone, this will be worse, but I don't think Wizards will see that. Either way, still busted.
Unbanned
Ancestral Vision - This card suffers from the Bitterblossom syndrome in that the format is more equipped to deal with it.
Bloodbraid Elf - Should have never been banned in the first place, hopefully Wizards fixes that mistake.
Other thoughts:
Golgari-Grave Troll - While I would love for this card to come off the banlist, I just don't think it will happen. I feel like this could potentially become too much of an enabler for the other powerful Delve spells that would be allowed to exist in modern. (eg. Dig Through Time, Necropolis Fiend, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, etc.)
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - I believe this card will stay banned for one more format. Control decks need a boost, but perhaps not at this magnitude, yet. However, if their intentions are to shake up the modern format, this will be the card to do it.
I'm also curious to read what others think about the implications of banning Gitaxian Probe. Mind you, I haven't read through all 250 pages, but I haven't really seen any discussion regarding this card recently. Maybe I'm just crazy thinking it's a candidate for the banlist.
Regarding Sword of the Meek unban, will it be used in delver decks?
Turn 1: Thought Scour -> mill Sword of the Meek to the graveyard
Turn 2: delver -> bring back Sword of the Meek -> delver becomes 2/3
Turn 3: delver becomes 4/4 flyer
Not to mention Young Pyromancer can bring many 1/1...
That literally makes no sense whatsoever.
The problem with Finks in Pod is that it both provides life and repeated pod activations for 4-drops. Without the lifegain, they have to pay a significant amount of life to abuse it. Without the ability to persist, then be reset by resto angel, it doesn't let them build up their board and generate card advantage. It's both together that makes it so good. With just a kitchen finks, a pod, and a land, you can:
- Pod finks for resto angel
- Pod finks again for siege rhino
- Pod finks a third time for another rhino, then
- Pod any one of those into a thragtusk/archangel of thune/whatever else.
And you can't just kill it either if you aren't in white because it'll just persist back and then you've wasted your removal while they pod it for a rhino and beat your face in. Without a finks the pod player can only upgrade their creatures slightly, which is a lot less dangerous and usually won't generate card advantage.
It's basically a 2-card combo that almost always wins you the game, except both cards are already insanely strong on their own. I see it as comparable to the sword of the meek/thopter foundry engine.
You could ban pod, but that would kill the deck entirely.
Banning finks would make pod weaker but likely still playable. You can still play Aven Riftwatcher and easily handle delver, just not with the additional ability to use that same creature to play multiple four drops for 1 mana each.
Or, you could decide it's fair and unban sword/foundry to give other color combos a similarly effective engine.
These sorts of purely theoretical and rhetorical arguments are the bane of this thread. Modern is a format full of powerful cards. Bolt! Path! Snapcaster! Decay! Goyf! Bob! Cards aren't banned for being powerful, with the exception of the bans made before the format was even piloted (any ban made before PT Philly). Cards are banned because of how they affect the metagame, which means arguments for card bannings need to be supported with metagme data. Rewriting cards to fit a personal agenda (e.g. Finks is actually a 3 mana 5/4 that gains you 4 life) is often the most disingenuous way that someone can force a point. It's maybe fine to start your argument that way, provided that it is eventually supported with some real evidence. But if that's the extent of an argument, that's a problem.
Moreover, if anything ever gets banned from Pod, it will almost certainly be Pod itself. One need only look at the Legacy example of Survival of the Fittest for evidence of that. Thankfully, there isn't a lot of data to demand a Pod ban. There are certainly arguments that can be made with the data we have, but they are by no means the nail in the Pod.
I'll even put one out there just to help out the ban-Pod camp!
In the past three ban update periods (April-July, July-September, September-January), Pod has had the most Grand Prix T8 finishes of any deck in Modern. That is true both of any discrete period, and looking at all three periods collectively. Looking at the GP data, Melira/Junk Pod has 11 T8 finishes. Affinity, the next closest, only has 6, followed by Burn with 3. So although Pod might not be the most-prevalent deck in the overall metagame, it might be the "best" overall, purely based on its T8 performances!
(obviously this argument has more than a few holes to attack, but I at least want something out there that isn't pure rhetoric and grandstanding)
Yeah, there is a ton of equipment in use in Modern... oh wait, the best that could be used are all banned. They banned the enabler AND the equipment. But left batterskull, probably an oversight, or maybe just because it actually comes to one of their beloved creatures attached.
ktkenshinx said it best, and I agree with his points. Pod is close to being oppressive, but I believe it is still fine. Maybe WOTC will do something creative to shake up the format this time, maybe they will simply ban a selection of the obvious cards on the radar, namely:
I would prefer to see them unban a few things as well as the perhaps necessary Treasure Cruise ban, but I personally would be fine if they left everything else on the above list alone for at least another season. Time will tell.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
UR TwinLegacy
UWR MiraclesI'd love to see the return of Phrexian mana since there's so much room for interesting and impactful modern cards. I'd love to see a "counter target spell" for UU(U/P)or UU(U/P)(U/P) or something like that
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
I wouldn't bet on that. Here's an excerpt from this article on Stoneforge's banning in Standard:
Given that quote it's not really difficult to find some justification that Wizards may use in the future to ban Birthing Pod as well.
'78 CB750F, '09 CBR600RR
That makes literally no sense. It is a 3/2 that leaves behind a 2/1. By your logic Reef Worm is a 4 mana 18/19. Since that is not the case, it is clear to me that you either are trolling or have very little Magic knowledge. I hope that it is the latter.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
This is what I propose couple of pages before. If you do not ban TC, fine, please give other control/midrange decks some tools to fight against delver.
For control: AV is probably not enough, Jace is more useful
For midrange: BBE can at least bring Jund and ZOO back again
However, I am almost 100% sure that Jace will not be unbanned for many other reasons. Therefor, TC will most likely be banned in the future.
Pod might be banned in the future too, but it means Modern will lose two decks completely (Melira Pod and Kiki Pod). This is sad to me.
I have difficulty following his logic...
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
Why does control need more tools vs Delver? Its not bad tbh. Delver isnt like some unbeatable deck that everyone thinks it is
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
You have an avatar now?? EVERYTHING IS CHANGING!
Regarding Jace, it's always tough to evaluate cards that were never in the Modern card pool. On the one hand, JTMS definitely isn't going in any Siege Rhino decks. Or if it does, that deck is dealing about 10 damage to itself on the manabase alone, so I wouldn't be too worried about it. In that respect, JTMS would definitely fight against BGx Midrange and Pod prevalence. On the other hand, that's a really powerful card that has caused some serious warpage in previous formats. You would need to test that out a lot to try and prove its safety.
Please look at this video first: Patrick Chapin (BR delver) vs Shaun McLeran (Jeskai)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPa5MnU3mfs
, then we discuss this topic again.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
As for unbannings jace stone forge skullclamp should never come off there too powerful.
And a side note: of course opinions are biased on bans not every one owns all the top decks
, they can't just jump to another, once it falls out of favor.
And that's when banning becomes dangerous for the health of the format like ktkenshinx said
decks playing:
none
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfM6lzyNNxY&index=7&list=PL04lbfeNAaS8Udk0ra5AjnMrQg8r-FM10
what about this match? this is just game 1, but he LSV wins the match.
Wall of Omens might not be that great, and no Pyroclasms and only 1 Anger of the Gods total, how is that good? The format changed with Khans, and whenever a format changes, Control becomes hard to build because you have to stop them, they dont have to stop you. We just need to figure out the best builds for Control
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
I am not fully convinced by this deck until there are some good results shown in the tournament. However, at least LSV gives me a hope for the position of control in the current META. Thanks for sharing this link.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
Madmin lol
Control doesn't need more tools vs Delver exactly. It just needs more tools in general.
The problem control has in Modern is that control's goal is to play the long game, then beat the opponent by being able to pull ahead as the game goes on. It means your early game is weak and you're vulnerable, but this is compensated for how good you get if you're able to hold on for long enough.
But control doesn't have the tools to do that because its late game cards aren't very good in Modern. Sphinx's Revelation served it well in Standard as the "this is how I pull ahead" card, but it's a lot less impressive in Modern. The format is faster and the lifegain, which was basically always relevant in Standard outside of the mirror, is utterly irrelevant against a number of Modern decks. You're paying 6 mana to draw 3 cards; hardly impressive. Dig Through Time can be cheaper to cast, but it doesn't offer that much raw card advantage and is more useful for decks like Scapeshift that are looking for particular cards (and also fill the graveyard more quickly). So why play the long game? You don't get much out of it. And you get better card advantage if you're playing a Treasure Cruise deck, which aims to win faster. Instead of getting better card advantage by playing slower with control, you're getting worse card advantage than the decks that want to win quickly!
It's easy to blame this on Treasure Cruise, but in all honesty control had this problem even before that card; Treasure Cruise just exacerbated it.
What control needs--badly--is something to give them incentive to play the long game that other decks aren't able to match. Sphinx's Revelation really isn't cutting it. There are several cards that can be unbanned to accomplish this: Ancestral Vision, Jace, and Sword of the Meek.
People know my position on Ancestral Vision: Ancestral Vision is a 100% safe unban that shouldn't have been banned to begin with. This card would give control much better card draw later in the game than Sphinx's Revelation. Additionally, it doesn't really help any other decks, because Ancestral Vision requires you to want to play the long game to get proper usage out of it. You won't be seeing UR Delver or Scapeshift playing that card. Ancestral Vision is a card that rewards playing the long game.
Jace: Repeatable Brainstorms and fate sealing lets you grind out card advantage. The Brainstorm is the obvious thing, but remember that fatesealing your opponent gives you virtual card advantage. It might not draw cards for you, but it denies them useful cards (while also adding a clock). He's more risky than Ancestral Vision because he's more versatile in the decks that he can go into, plus there's the potential problem of his price tag. At his current price he'd be the second most expensive card in Modern if unbanned, and he'd go way up if unbanned, possibly passing Tarmogoyf. Though honestly, talking about him is just academic at this point, as Aaron Forsythe stated he's not getting banned anytime soon.
Sword of the Meek: This one gives control a much better win condition. Right now it's stuff like Celestial Colonnade, which isn't that good. ThopterSword is a win condition that also doubles as a way to stay alive, gaining life and providing you with blockers. This could also enable some of those fringe Tezzeret decks. The usual argument made against this is that it hurts aggro, but... it's worth pointing out two things. First, aggro has gotten a big boost and is actually doing pretty well now, so it wouldn't be punishing an ailing archetype like it would have a year ago. Second, even back in Extended, aggro was a real thing when ThopterSword was around; Zoo was a pretty darn good deck. Also worth pointing out that ThopterSword had access to the Dark Depths combo and Chrome Mox back then, which it wouldn't in Modern. Admittedly, Zoo did have Bloodbraid Elf, but there's general agreement that card should be unbanned anyway.
Control really could use some help, and Ancestral Vision (a very safe unban) could help accomplish that. Sword of the Meek is slightly more chancy, but I think it's fairly safe as well.
It's like you are fishing for infractions in this thread.
As you said, AV is a pretty obvious unban, and I fully expect it to be unbanned next update, either without any bans or as a trade for TC. This card will definitely help control, although it's unclear if that will be enough. My guess is that Wizards will unban AV and see how things go from there. If that doesn't help control, then maybe they unban something else down the road. I can't imagine they will unban Sword right now. It took Wizards over two years to get non-Affinity aggro into the format, and between MS and Rhino (let alone TC), we now have more than a few aggressive options that are becoming real format contenders. I doubt they risk undoing that with Sword.
I agree with this alot
Modern
BUGLantern ControlBUG
I believe most people here think that Treasure Cruise and Birthing Pod should not be banned at the next ban announcement.
Many/most people here are in favor of some number of unbannings in some combination of Ancestral Vision, Bloodbraid Elf, and/or Sword of the Meek.
Virtually everyone here agrees that Delver and Pod should be on the watchlist as being potentially hurtful to the format now or in the foreseeable future. That doesn't mean we think the decks need a BanSlap though.
NOTE: This post isn't meant to represent everyone who posts on this forum, but merely to express the most commonly held/supported opinions.
As to your second question of whether Jace is safe.... No one knows. Its an absurdly powerful card. Modern might be able to handle Jace, or not.
- Manite
Infraction issued for trolling - Wildfire393
Look at the Top 8's of Grand Prix Yokohama and Grand Prix Houston. As we can see by the propensity of ThopterSword/ThopterDepths decks, we can see that was a powerful deck. But we can also spy a few Zoo decks and also a WR Aggro deck. Obviously those decks were still able to do pretty well in a format where such an "aggro-killer" as ThopterSword was legal.
I suppose it's not unfair to point out that Zoo did have Umezawa's Jitte... but that's a bit compensated by the fact ThopterDepths was running Chrome Mox and Dark Depths. (and yes, Zoo did also have Bloodbraid Elf, but as I've stated repeatedly, the card should be unbanned)
While Extended was a different format, it does suggest to me that ThopterSword may not be the inherent killer of aggro in Modern that people are making it out to be.
Banned
Gitaxian Probe - I think it's time it goes the way of Ponder and Preordain.
Treasure Cruise - With Gitaxian Probe gone, this will be worse, but I don't think Wizards will see that. Either way, still busted.
Unbanned
Ancestral Vision - This card suffers from the Bitterblossom syndrome in that the format is more equipped to deal with it.
Bloodbraid Elf - Should have never been banned in the first place, hopefully Wizards fixes that mistake.
Other thoughts:
Golgari-Grave Troll - While I would love for this card to come off the banlist, I just don't think it will happen. I feel like this could potentially become too much of an enabler for the other powerful Delve spells that would be allowed to exist in modern. (eg. Dig Through Time, Necropolis Fiend, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, etc.)
Jace, the Mind Sculptor - I believe this card will stay banned for one more format. Control decks need a boost, but perhaps not at this magnitude, yet. However, if their intentions are to shake up the modern format, this will be the card to do it.
I'm also curious to read what others think about the implications of banning Gitaxian Probe. Mind you, I haven't read through all 250 pages, but I haven't really seen any discussion regarding this card recently. Maybe I'm just crazy thinking it's a candidate for the banlist.
Turn 1: Thought Scour -> mill Sword of the Meek to the graveyard
Turn 2: delver -> bring back Sword of the Meek -> delver becomes 2/3
Turn 3: delver becomes 4/4 flyer
Not to mention Young Pyromancer can bring many 1/1...
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron