Welcome to the Modern banlist discussion! Here, you can discuss everything related to the banlist, from questioning the possibility of unbans to recent announcements of new bannings.
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January 19, 2015 - 11:00 AM EST
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Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Some cards enable a top tier deck to consistently win on turn 3 or earlier. Because this violates the "turn 4" rule of the format, the following cards have been banned:
Other cards have been banned because they make certain decks too consistent/reliable and thus stagnate the format. Here are some examples of these cards:
Some cards, currently only one, are banned because they were just mistakes. This card is one of the most broken cards of all time and has been banned in almost every format where it was or is legal:
Finally, there are some cards that were banned for logistical reasons. These cards made tournaments last too long and were banned to make events run smoother. They were not necessarily banned for power reasons.
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
More than likely they didn't want to change anything up during the pro tour. But, yeah, GGT would have done nothing anyway so I don't know why they couldn't throw us a bone.
Boring but fine, format seems pretty healthy. UWR will probably place at the next GP and everyone will still flap their gums about how control is dead, sure UWR isn't a great control deck but we can't just power it up if it is a top performing deck.
Boring but fine, format seems pretty healthy. UWR will probably place at the next GP and everyone will still flap their gums about how control is dead, sure UWR isn't a great control deck but we can't just power it up if it is a top performing deck.
But you can power-up other Control decks. I am still waiting for Sword of the Meek to be unbanned.
Boring but fine, format seems pretty healthy. UWR will probably place at the next GP and everyone will still flap their gums about how control is dead, sure UWR isn't a great control deck but we can't just power it up if it is a top performing deck.
A measure of a deck's performance is not placing high, it's a consistent placing. When McLaren won the Pro Tour with UWR, he was the only UWR player in the top 32. At GP Minnesota there were 2 in the top 16 (No, I don't count McLaren's Kiki Combo deck). Keep in mind this is the only placing Control decks. Meanwhile there are a slew of Mid-range (Pod) and Combo (Scapeshift/Twin) and Aggro (Affinity). Looking at the PTQ so far this season is even more disparate results. Dead? No. Life support? Surely. AV or Jace are just fine and either one should come off. Neither helps combo (Storm/Twin/etc.).
People were going to complain no matter what happened. Yes its boring, but M15 should shake up the format a tiny bit.
That's not a legitimate reason to do nothing. I would love to see someone complain about a card like Golgari Grave-Troll being unbanned.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Boring but fine, format seems pretty healthy. UWR will probably place at the next GP and everyone will still flap their gums about how control is dead, sure UWR isn't a great control deck but we can't just power it up if it is a top performing deck.
A measure of a deck's performance is not placing high, it's a consistent placing. When McLaren won the Pro Tour with UWR, he was the only UWR player in the top 32. At GP Minnesota there were 2 in the top 16 (No, I don't count McLaren's Kiki Combo deck). Keep in mind this is the only placing Control decks. Meanwhile there are a slew of Mid-range (Pod) and Combo (Scapeshift/Twin) and Aggro (Affinity). Looking at the PTQ so far this season is even more disparate results. Dead? No. Life support? Surely. AV or Jace are just fine and either one should come off. Neither helps combo (Storm/Twin/etc.).
I still don't understand why people argue that Scapeshift is a combo deck and not a control deck. Control typically slows down the game until a certain board state is met, and then they resolve one of a few spells that they tend to end the game with (Sphinx's Revelation, Cruel Ultimatum). This is slightly different in RWU because they play the whole burn aspect as their win condition, along with Colonnade. RUG Scapeshift is, at it's heart, a control deck that plays a game ending bomb spell that, unlike those others, happens to end the game right now....
Scapeshift is a combo deck and every card in the deck is just there to help you get to 7 lands alive. You don't control to gain card advantage, you control to gain tempo. You play Remand, not Mana Leak. You only counter or kill the cards that prevent you from winning, not those that help establish your opponent's board presence. Often, you will use Cryptic Command to tap all creatures or bounce something, rather than counter + draw. It has some cards in common with control decks, but plays nothing like one.
The problem is claiming that "combo" and "control" are mutually exclusive. In fact, the aggro/control axis and the combo/not-combo axis are orthogonal. There's aggressive combo and there's controlling combo. Scapeshift is closer to the latter.
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When you peer long enough through the depths, the depths peer also through you.
Boring but fine, format seems pretty healthy. UWR will probably place at the next GP and everyone will still flap their gums about how control is dead, sure UWR isn't a great control deck but we can't just power it up if it is a top performing deck.
A measure of a deck's performance is not placing high, it's a consistent placing. When McLaren won the Pro Tour with UWR, he was the only UWR player in the top 32. At GP Minnesota there were 2 in the top 16 (No, I don't count McLaren's Kiki Combo deck). Keep in mind this is the only placing Control decks. Meanwhile there are a slew of Mid-range (Pod) and Combo (Scapeshift/Twin) and Aggro (Affinity). Looking at the PTQ so far this season is even more disparate results. Dead? No. Life support? Surely. AV or Jace are just fine and either one should come off. Neither helps combo (Storm/Twin/etc.).
I would argue that the actual important stat is conversion of initial metagame share to day 2's and day 2's to top 8/16/32 conversions. Does anyone have the stats for that?
On Scapeshift, it's modern's high tide, simple as that.
RUG Scapeshift is a combo deck with control elements, not a control deck with a combo finish. Claiming it's a control deck is like claiming UR Storm is a control deck because it runs Bolt for Canonist and Echoing Truth for Rule of Law or Leyline of Sanctity. All cards in the deck are centralized around getting to 7 mana and resolving a Scapeshift for the win.
On Scapeshift, it's modern's high tide, simple as that.
If by the fact that it's a (by the standards of the format) slower-than-usual combo deck, yes, but to be honest I think the best parallel to High Tide in Modern is Eggs.
On Scapeshift, it's modern's high tide, simple as that.
I always thought of Scapeshift as Modern's SneakShow. Try not to die until you can play your "I win" card.
I played Scapeshift for a month, including 1 Competitive REL tournament. This is how I saw it. The deck basically does what it can to not die until it can cast it's "I win " card. I thought of it as a Control deck with a Combo finish. Maybe that wasn't the right way to think about it. It's not really a Combo in the sense that 2 or more cards out together at the same time work to give you an unfair advantage or the win (like Deceiver Exarch/Splinter Twin). The "combo" is essentially playing Scapeshift and having certain lands in your deck.
I'm actually surprised that no one mentioned the "ramp" elements of the deck. This is a true Hybrid deck in that it has Ramp, Control(ling) the board to not lose or be stopped from winning, and a Combo finish. (the combo being playing the deck's namesake and having Valakut and Mountains in the deck)
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Sneak and show doesn't actually play many cards that affect it dying apart from counters tho. High tide is the combo-control deck of legacy. You stall for your fundamental turn and then win. Sneak and show is more on teh combo end of the spectrum, high tide's newest tech is having the counter top package in it.
A little bummed about no sword of the meek or grave-troll, but I understand, and now a days I trust Wizards knows whats up. I do sort of expect a small shakeup in September, but not this close to GP Worchester and the tour (again).
I bought swords/thopter combo on tcg and noticed that everyone I bought from waited until the 14th or after to ship my order so I know they thought it might be unbanned too. Its like extra votes.
No one should have been too surprised at this. Shaking up the format in the middle of a PTQ season, not to mention with 2 GPs coming up in July/August, is really poor form. People have invested in decks, prepared their matchups/lists, tested out the gauntlet, and are generally set up for this current Modern season. Unbans, and bans especially, don't exactly reinforce player confidence in the format or Wizards more generally.
That said, I think it's a safe bet that something gets unbanned in September. The sample size isn't great here (n=1...), but it reminds me of the Valakut unban that we saw back in fall 2012. I don't think we would get something as big as that, but I do think we will see 2 unbans at that time. That's especially true if we see a boatload of Pod/Twin/Affinity over the next 2-3 months, and Wizards feels a need to shake things up.
As for bannings, I don't expect to see anything banned until January at the absolute earliest. And even then, the data doesn't justify a ban yet. But 1-2 unbans in September? Count on it.
No one should have been too surprised at this. Shaking up the format in the middle of a PTQ season, not to mention with 2 GPs coming up in July/August, is really poor form. People have invested in decks, prepared their matchups/lists, tested out the gauntlet, and are generally set up for this current Modern season. Unbans, and bans especially, don't exactly reinforce player confidence in the format or Wizards more generally.
That said, I think it's a safe bet that something gets unbanned in September. The sample size isn't great here (n=1...), but it reminds me of the Valakut unban that we saw back in fall 2012. I don't think we would get something as big as that, but I do think we will see 2 unbans at that time. That's especially true if we see a boatload of Pod/Twin/Affinity over the next 2-3 months, and Wizards feels a need to shake things up.
As for bannings, I don't expect to see anything banned until January at the absolute earliest. And even then, the data doesn't justify a ban yet. But 1-2 unbans in September? Count on it.
While I hope that you are right, you have to remember that Valakut was right before the Modern Pro Tour, which may of contributed to it being unbanned then.
No one should have been too surprised at this. Shaking up the format in the middle of a PTQ season, not to mention with 2 GPs coming up in July/August, is really poor form. People have invested in decks, prepared their matchups/lists, tested out the gauntlet, and are generally set up for this current Modern season. Unbans, and bans especially, don't exactly reinforce player confidence in the format or Wizards more generally.
True, but it is worth pointing out that they did opt to ban two during the last Modern PTQ season.
I suppose I should get back to work. Paladin isn't going to ban itself.
I'm actually really happy that Wizards has restrained itself from banning cards like that. Griselbrand/Goryo's Vengeance, Glistener Elf, Amulet of Vigor, Simian Spirit Guide, Puresteel Paladin, and a bunch of other cards have all appeared to threaten the turn 4 rule multiple times in the past. At least, that's what some people have (erroneously) claimed. But we have seen time and time again that the decks are neither consistent nor top tier, and those are the criteria for decks that violate the turn 4 rule. So glass cannon combo gets to stick around, the metagame remains healthy and diverse, and Wizards keeps surprising me with its evenhandedness in bannings.
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Over-Extended/Modern Since 2010
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Update from the 9/22/2014 Announcement:
No changes
Next B&R Announcement:
January 19, 2015 - 11:00 AM EST
Please follow a few simple rules while you are here.
Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Skullclamp
Sensei's Divining Top
Second Sunrise
Community Cup Announcement with the Initial Ban List.
1st Banned List change with explanations
2nd Banned List change with explanations
3rd Banned List change with explanations
Removal of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Addition of Bloodbraid Elf and Seething Song
Addition of Second Sunrise
Bitterblossom/Nacatl Unbanned. DRS Banned
Old threads:
2/9/2014 - 7/14/2014
1/20/2014 - 2/10/2014
6/23/2014 - 1/20/2014
4/22/2013 - 6/23/213
1/27/2013 - 4/22/13
9/20/2012 - 1/27/2013
7/19/2012 - 9/20/2012
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)More than likely they didn't want to change anything up during the pro tour. But, yeah, GGT would have done nothing anyway so I don't know why they couldn't throw us a bone.
But you can power-up other Control decks. I am still waiting for Sword of the Meek to be unbanned.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
A SINGLE CHANGE
WAS MADE
THAT DAY
A measure of a deck's performance is not placing high, it's a consistent placing. When McLaren won the Pro Tour with UWR, he was the only UWR player in the top 32. At GP Minnesota there were 2 in the top 16 (No, I don't count McLaren's Kiki Combo deck). Keep in mind this is the only placing Control decks. Meanwhile there are a slew of Mid-range (Pod) and Combo (Scapeshift/Twin) and Aggro (Affinity). Looking at the PTQ so far this season is even more disparate results. Dead? No. Life support? Surely. AV or Jace are just fine and either one should come off. Neither helps combo (Storm/Twin/etc.).
It really won't change much.
I really don't see why we needed a new thread for this if there were no changes.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
That's not a legitimate reason to do nothing. I would love to see someone complain about a card like Golgari Grave-Troll being unbanned.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I still don't understand why people argue that Scapeshift is a combo deck and not a control deck. Control typically slows down the game until a certain board state is met, and then they resolve one of a few spells that they tend to end the game with (Sphinx's Revelation, Cruel Ultimatum). This is slightly different in RWU because they play the whole burn aspect as their win condition, along with Colonnade. RUG Scapeshift is, at it's heart, a control deck that plays a game ending bomb spell that, unlike those others, happens to end the game right now....
GWUB 4C Gifts Control
Commander:
GWU Derevi
BGW Ghave
BUG Muldrotha
Tiny Leaders:
BGW Doran
BGU Leovold
I would argue that the actual important stat is conversion of initial metagame share to day 2's and day 2's to top 8/16/32 conversions. Does anyone have the stats for that?
On Scapeshift, it's modern's high tide, simple as that.
GWUB 4C Gifts Control
Commander:
GWU Derevi
BGW Ghave
BUG Muldrotha
Tiny Leaders:
BGW Doran
BGU Leovold
I always thought of Scapeshift as Modern's SneakShow. Try not to die until you can play your "I win" card.
I played Scapeshift for a month, including 1 Competitive REL tournament. This is how I saw it. The deck basically does what it can to not die until it can cast it's "I win " card. I thought of it as a Control deck with a Combo finish. Maybe that wasn't the right way to think about it. It's not really a Combo in the sense that 2 or more cards out together at the same time work to give you an unfair advantage or the win (like Deceiver Exarch/Splinter Twin). The "combo" is essentially playing Scapeshift and having certain lands in your deck.
I'm actually surprised that no one mentioned the "ramp" elements of the deck. This is a true Hybrid deck in that it has Ramp, Control(ling) the board to not lose or be stopped from winning, and a Combo finish. (the combo being playing the deck's namesake and having Valakut and Mountains in the deck)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)A little bummed about no sword of the meek or grave-troll, but I understand, and now a days I trust Wizards knows whats up. I do sort of expect a small shakeup in September, but not this close to GP Worchester and the tour (again).
I bought swords/thopter combo on tcg and noticed that everyone I bought from waited until the 14th or after to ship my order so I know they thought it might be unbanned too. Its like extra votes.
That said, I think it's a safe bet that something gets unbanned in September. The sample size isn't great here (n=1...), but it reminds me of the Valakut unban that we saw back in fall 2012. I don't think we would get something as big as that, but I do think we will see 2 unbans at that time. That's especially true if we see a boatload of Pod/Twin/Affinity over the next 2-3 months, and Wizards feels a need to shake things up.
As for bannings, I don't expect to see anything banned until January at the absolute earliest. And even then, the data doesn't justify a ban yet. But 1-2 unbans in September? Count on it.
While I hope that you are right, you have to remember that Valakut was right before the Modern Pro Tour, which may of contributed to it being unbanned then.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
I'm actually really happy that Wizards has restrained itself from banning cards like that. Griselbrand/Goryo's Vengeance, Glistener Elf, Amulet of Vigor, Simian Spirit Guide, Puresteel Paladin, and a bunch of other cards have all appeared to threaten the turn 4 rule multiple times in the past. At least, that's what some people have (erroneously) claimed. But we have seen time and time again that the decks are neither consistent nor top tier, and those are the criteria for decks that violate the turn 4 rule. So glass cannon combo gets to stick around, the metagame remains healthy and diverse, and Wizards keeps surprising me with its evenhandedness in bannings.