Selfless is a great card and could be a good chord target, but to me just in SB, not in MD. As a Lead player, if my opponent cast a Anger or Wrath, I just wanna rebuild the board over and over again (if you watched the g3 of the finals, my opponent plays 1x Anger and 2x Supreme, one Supreme in a topdeck after a serum visions when he was at 1 life). Still, I didnt draw any of my 3 leads in the finals.
I may add a Burrenton in sb (wished a Burrenton yesterday because the matchs of RG Valakut), but in my local meta it never shows up, soo it was a kind of unexpected matchup. But yes, Selfless is a great card and can be in our sideboard.
Shaman, while strong, was never the defining card for elves, although I'm sure anyone who has, like me, played the GB version and ended plenty of games with "Shaman, trigger on stack, collected..." would attest to just how close it comes. Liam is like the sharp reminder that Shaman is just an option, and not the staple.
I love that toolbox. Look at it. Its disgusting. It makes me feel like playing 4 chords main all over again. Everything under the sun is accounted for, and almost everything in there can be chorded for. I'm wondering if Lead might not actually become stronger yet as people board in more and more Anger of the Gods for Dredge. Liam obviously didn't have a problem with those, though.
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Shaman, while strong, was never the defining card for elves, although I'm sure anyone who has, like me, played the GB version and ended plenty of games with "Shaman, trigger on stack, collected..." would attest to just how close it comes. Liam is like the sharp reminder that Shaman is just an option, and not the staple.
I love that toolbox. Look at it. Its disgusting. It makes me feel like playing 4 chords main all over again. Everything under the sun is accounted for, and almost everything in there can be chorded for. I'm wondering if Lead might not actually become stronger yet as people board in more and more Anger of the Gods for Dredge. Liam obviously didn't have a problem with those, though.
I've been going back and forth with GB and GW lists. I really like them both. Unfortunately, I don't have Horizon Canopy. There are times that you'd really miss the card draw esp when you're behind on board. The only problem with GW is that it's really weak when Elves is in the meta radar of your opponents. I think it doesn't do well against decks that mainboard mass wipes.
Selfless is a great card and could be a good chord target, but to me just in SB, not in MD. As a Lead player, if my opponent cast a Anger or Wrath, I just wanna rebuild the board over and over again (if you watched the g3 of the finals, my opponent plays 1x Anger and 2x Supreme, one Supreme in a topdeck after a serum visions when he was at 1 life). Still, I didnt draw any of my 3 leads in the finals.
I may add a Burrenton in sb (wished a Burrenton yesterday because the matchs of RG Valakut), but in my local meta it never shows up, soo it was a kind of unexpected matchup. But yes, Selfless is a great card and can be in our sideboard.
Note that Burrenton doesn't do anything against Valakut since lands are colorless meaning it cannot prevent damage from it. Unless you meant as a protection against Anger etc.
@MarcWizard: This is exactly why I'm on the fence right now. Even in Liam's matches in Top8 there were moments where a Chord for Shaman would've ended the game on the spot. I think that with a toolbox approach of GW there is enough flexibility to add 1-2 Shaman in either MB or SB just to have an out in such cases.
Also with Nettle Sentinels instead of Shamans the curve is lower meaning more explosive starts which helps us race against infect/affinity/dredge.
Hey guys, it's Liam Lonergan, winner of the invitational over the weekend. I don't use mtgsalvation very often, but I'll try to poke my head in once or twice a day if any of you have questions about my build of the deck or about the matchups that I faced over the weekend. Proof: http://imgur.com/a/trC44
thanks for the opportunity Liam. Honestly congratulations again. Im actually interested to know your thoughts on the jund matchup, as you made a comment that elves vs jund is normally easy to navigate.
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
Hey guys, it's Liam Lonergan, winner of the invitational over the weekend. I don't use mtgsalvation very often, but I'll try to poke my head in once or twice a day if any of you have questions about my build of the deck or about the matchups that I faced over the weekend. Proof: http://imgur.com/a/trC44
Right on man, congrats! Mind sharing some info on how you play tested for the events (decks you tweaked for specifically) and any internet discussions you normally do post in regarding the deck? I'm on GBw lead myself but I really want to take your list for a spin. Cheers!
@thatstoryteller120 Jund is interesting because it looks pretty bad on paper, but they realistically only run 8 or 9 removal spells, so preboard I try to flood the board as much as possible. They don't put on a very fast clock, especially considering that you have chumpers for days if you decide you need to save some life. I think the most important thing is to bide your time until you are holding a chord or company for their end step. If they don't have a removal spell for an ezuri or an archdruid, the game often ends on your turn. Post board, I bring out Chord of Calling, since it doesn't trade up on card advantage and can get stranded in the hand if they have early interaction. I bring in Path to Exiles to deal with Kalitas, Forge-tender, Elvish Champion, and Chameleon Colossus.
Nice work and way to remind people Elves is a thing!
Chord makes a lot of sense with your tool box sideboard, but Chord vs. Lead the Stampede has long been debated on here. I'd like to know how you came to this list over a Lead the Stampede build. And maybe the two go together because of White's flexibility as a tool box, but what made you shy away from black and Shaman of the Pack?
Hey guys, it's Liam Lonergan, winner of the invitational over the weekend. I don't use mtgsalvation very often, but I'll try to poke my head in once or twice a day if any of you have questions about my build of the deck or about the matchups that I faced over the weekend. Proof: http://imgur.com/a/trC44
Congrats on the win. You went 8-0 in swiss, which matchups did you face? Were any of them particularly problematic? How did you feel playing without a single copy of Shaman of the Pack?
@mapccu This list is my own creation, but I'd be lying if I said that I was tuning the deck to anything in particular. The sideboard I run tries to hit all the bases, but the one concession that I make with it is to G/r Tron. The only card I would put in the board for a tron-heavy meta is stony silence, which I don't run because I feel that Gust is much better against Affinity, as there is almost no coming back from it being cast.
@Driemer84 @kavselj It took me a while to decide against Shaman of the Pack. I played with it for about a month after its release and there is no doubt in my mind that it brings a lot to the table. The first conclusion I came to is that I wanted to stick to a two color manabase. Granted, it is not very difficult to splash for the black with Gilt-Leaf Palaces and Cavern of Souls, but with every land I add, I have to take another out. Horizon Canopy has been indispensable in the amount of times it has drawn me into the lethal Ezuri, company, etc. If I add Palaces, I'd have to take out forests, as the thickets and canopies alone are already stretched thin in trying to cast path to exile or other white sideboard cards. The other half is that I think the resiliency the one-ofs in my mainboard and my sideboard are more important than the reach that shamans provide.
@kavselj I'll try to remember all of the matcups I faced: I know I faced Jund three times, two of which had grim flayers instead of confidants. The other decks I faced were Merfolk, Affinity, Infect, RG Land Destruction (that one was funny), and a Jeskai Delver, splashing for Geist of St Traft and Path to Exile.
I will throw out a question! I have been a proponent of BG since Shaman first became a thing (mostly due to all of the successful Japanese lists that I post on here), but why did you go against completely negating white for black sideboards? I understand white sideboards are more powerful pound for pound, but I was wondering if Lead to Stampede can provide the resiliency that you talk of. Have you tried the Lead version? Do you not like it?
Yeah, I've come to the same conclusion regarding manabase. Stretching it to accommodate 3 colours is pretty tough. Especially with sideboard in mind.
As for the Shaman, I think it's worth at least one slot in SB. With Chord you can always threaten to win if they're on low enough life. Seeing that you went GW, what are your thoughts on Mirror Entity?
Sorry to bombard you with so many questions but I'm thinking of running a similar list to yours this weekend at GP Lille so any insight is helpful
@mikeduges I have tried the Lead version. Like Shaman of the pack, there is no doubt that the card is powerful, but I don't think there is room for both Lead and Chord of Calling. Lead the Stampede can give you a neverending supply of elves, but that is something that I feel Dwynen's Elite and Collected Company do a good enough job of without it, while Chord of Calling gives you a lot of flexibility to switch gears halfway through the game since you can get any creature at instant speed. Add to that the potent singletons in both the mainboard and the sideboard and I think Chord is too good to pass up. In short, chord makes the deck less linear and harder to kill with a silver bullet.
@kavselj One shaman in the sideboard is not something that I have thought of. I could see it being useful, but I'd still be uncomfortable playing it without black sources (other than cavern of souls). I played Mirror Entity in my first iteration of the deck. I feel like the card is mostly just a worse Ezuri, with the only upsides that it technically makes your guys bigger with less mana (no trample is huge though) and that it doesn't have the legendary rule to conflict with Ezuri. With Chord of calling, three Ezuri is plenty and I don't think Entity is needed.
I see that you didn't face any form of control deck like Nahiri Jeskai. I fear that a chord deck will 1) mulligan worse than a Lead deck, 2) fair worse against control decks that packs Snap bolt snap. I fear these decks greatly and have loitered over to the GB version. Do you think your chord deck has enough of a staying power to over come these massive amount of removals. Do you think that Dwynen and or visionary is enough to stave them off? The Japan metagame (where I am from) is filled with these attrition decks. Perhaps that is the reason why GB is the staple over there, but maybe an American metagame is better to attack with GW. It seems that relying on Ezuri as the main win-con is narrow, but of course, you proved us wrong. Any input on whether GB is viable or if GW is superior in your mind?
Thanks in advance for all your input!
EDIT: Here, here and here are some examples of GB lists that I follow. Would love input about them. Events are 150+ man for first one and 250+ (both top eighted) for the second two.
@mikeduges Jeskai control is undoubtedly one of my tougher matchups, and if it is popular in your area, there's a chance that lead the stampede is the better option. My plan, since they don't play creatures to block with, is usually to hold my ezuris/archdruids in hand and attack until they are forced to spend their removal on my lesser creatures, then I play my three drops once I think they have expended most of their removal. Unless I can cast and activate him in the same turn, casting Ezuri is only something that I do If they are out of removal or are about to win.
Thank you so much for taking the time to give us your valuable input. I will take them to heart and adjust accordingly. Hope you continue to have a successful career, leading our beloved Elves forward, and post here to keep us updated. I found that this forum (which I have been a part of for over a year and a half) is a collection of people who sincerely love this archtype and are respectful to all ideas and challenges. I really do hope you will continue to stay connected.
Hey guys, it's Liam Lonergan, winner of the invitational over the weekend. I don't use mtgsalvation very often, but I'll try to poke my head in once or twice a day if any of you have questions about my build of the deck or about the matchups that I faced over the weekend. Proof: http://imgur.com/a/trC44
Hey Liam, I want to congratulate you on your win!
Not being able to decide between the 2 modes is the reason I've got 4 Leads main and 3 Chords side; this has resulted in my toolbox being a lot smaller, though. I think you're right about Chords making the deck less linear in a sense, but Shaman also provide a different angle of attack; a lot of players have boarded in Bridges and Ghostly Prisons against me only to realize I don't need a combat phase to win.
Ultimately though it boils down to the meta we're in, I totally agree with what you said couple posts back. I tried running the chord version and the sheer amount of Angers, Pyroclasms and Bolt-Snap-Bolt decks made me seek out a version that could keep coming back. I quickly found that Chords were often dead in my meta without a mass of elves to convoke with, and I simply needed to refill my hand.
I've got a question! Would you consider Leyline of the Void if Dredge continues on their trend? Or would you elect to race them?
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@MarcWizard I've only played against the deck about a dozen times, but the matchup feels very favorable. With the amount of blockers that we can create and their lack of interaction, I don't think that we need to devote any sideboard slots to dredge. It wasn't broadcast, but in my match against Tom Ross, in all three games he was trying to push damage across, but had to leave blockers back so that I couldn't outrace him. Then if I dropped an ezuri or archdruid, I'd win the race anyway.
Thank you for taking the time to post. It's a huge boon to the Forum/Primer and is exceedingly helpful in letting us all learn from such a high level event. Your points about the mana base are particularly insightful.
@Curbal Sideboarding is a complex topic so this will be a long post.
It would take a while to explain the whole sideboard, but I can try to give you a list of what matchups each card is for. As for deciding what to board out, the cards I most often remove are the chord of callings when they're a very grindy deck (jund, nahiri control, etc.) or when they are playing a deck where it doesn't matter what creatures you have, just that you have a lot of them, and the one-ofs that don't preform well in the matchup (there's usually one or two). Also keep in mind two things when sideboarding: one is that you want your curve to remain relatively the same (if you are putting in two tree drops, try to take out similarly costed cards), and the other is that you retain a high density of creatures for CoCo.
Phyrexian Revoker- Affinity, decks with grim lavamancer, tron, elves (name ezuri), and decks that use a planeswalker as a win condition.
Aven Mindcensor- Chord of Calling decks, Tron, Valakut/Scapesift decks.
Burrenton Forge-Tender- Just about any red deck.
Chameleon Colossus- Jund and grixis, they don't have any removal that kills it, aside from using two burn spells when you can't pump it.
Elvish Champion- Most decks that play forests, with the exception of infect as they don't put up enough blockers for it to matter.
Essence Warden- The mirror, b/w tokens, merfolk, burn.
Kitchen Finks- Burn and other aggressive decks. I occasionally bring them in agains decks I know have boardwipes in the sideboard.
Eidolon of Rhetoric- Combo Decks (storm, ad nauseam, living end, etc.). This is the only card I'd change if I could go back. Most of the decks it is good against aren't very good right now. I'd replace it with a selfless spirit to help combat boardwipes.
Fracturing Gust- Affinity, Bogles, and any thopter/sword deck.
Path to Exile- Any deck that plays large creatures that make combat difficult (Kalitas, Goyf, etc.) and delver decks, so that they can't tempo you out with an insectile aberration.
Kataki- Affinity, Tron, thopter/sword decks.
Melira- Exclusively for infect. The only reason I have spellskite in the main is to make my game one much better.
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I may add a Burrenton in sb (wished a Burrenton yesterday because the matchs of RG Valakut), but in my local meta it never shows up, soo it was a kind of unexpected matchup. But yes, Selfless is a great card and can be in our sideboard.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/33515_SCG-Top-8-August-22-2016.html
Shaman, while strong, was never the defining card for elves, although I'm sure anyone who has, like me, played the GB version and ended plenty of games with "Shaman, trigger on stack, collected..." would attest to just how close it comes. Liam is like the sharp reminder that Shaman is just an option, and not the staple.
I love that toolbox. Look at it. Its disgusting. It makes me feel like playing 4 chords main all over again. Everything under the sun is accounted for, and almost everything in there can be chorded for. I'm wondering if Lead might not actually become stronger yet as people board in more and more Anger of the Gods for Dredge. Liam obviously didn't have a problem with those, though.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I've been going back and forth with GB and GW lists. I really like them both. Unfortunately, I don't have Horizon Canopy. There are times that you'd really miss the card draw esp when you're behind on board. The only problem with GW is that it's really weak when Elves is in the meta radar of your opponents. I think it doesn't do well against decks that mainboard mass wipes.
Note that Burrenton doesn't do anything against Valakut since lands are colorless meaning it cannot prevent damage from it. Unless you meant as a protection against Anger etc.
@MarcWizard: This is exactly why I'm on the fence right now. Even in Liam's matches in Top8 there were moments where a Chord for Shaman would've ended the game on the spot. I think that with a toolbox approach of GW there is enough flexibility to add 1-2 Shaman in either MB or SB just to have an out in such cases.
Also with Nettle Sentinels instead of Shamans the curve is lower meaning more explosive starts which helps us race against infect/affinity/dredge.
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
Right on man, congrats! Mind sharing some info on how you play tested for the events (decks you tweaked for specifically) and any internet discussions you normally do post in regarding the deck? I'm on GBw lead myself but I really want to take your list for a spin. Cheers!
Chord makes a lot of sense with your tool box sideboard, but Chord vs. Lead the Stampede has long been debated on here. I'd like to know how you came to this list over a Lead the Stampede build. And maybe the two go together because of White's flexibility as a tool box, but what made you shy away from black and Shaman of the Pack?
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Congrats on the win. You went 8-0 in swiss, which matchups did you face? Were any of them particularly problematic? How did you feel playing without a single copy of Shaman of the Pack?
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
I will throw out a question! I have been a proponent of BG since Shaman first became a thing (mostly due to all of the successful Japanese lists that I post on here), but why did you go against completely negating white for black sideboards? I understand white sideboards are more powerful pound for pound, but I was wondering if Lead to Stampede can provide the resiliency that you talk of. Have you tried the Lead version? Do you not like it?
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
As for the Shaman, I think it's worth at least one slot in SB. With Chord you can always threaten to win if they're on low enough life. Seeing that you went GW, what are your thoughts on Mirror Entity?
Sorry to bombard you with so many questions but I'm thinking of running a similar list to yours this weekend at GP Lille so any insight is helpful
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
I see that you didn't face any form of control deck like Nahiri Jeskai. I fear that a chord deck will 1) mulligan worse than a Lead deck, 2) fair worse against control decks that packs Snap bolt snap. I fear these decks greatly and have loitered over to the GB version. Do you think your chord deck has enough of a staying power to over come these massive amount of removals. Do you think that Dwynen and or visionary is enough to stave them off? The Japan metagame (where I am from) is filled with these attrition decks. Perhaps that is the reason why GB is the staple over there, but maybe an American metagame is better to attack with GW. It seems that relying on Ezuri as the main win-con is narrow, but of course, you proved us wrong. Any input on whether GB is viable or if GW is superior in your mind?
Thanks in advance for all your input!
EDIT: Here, here and here are some examples of GB lists that I follow. Would love input about them. Events are 150+ man for first one and 250+ (both top eighted) for the second two.
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
Thank you so much for taking the time to give us your valuable input. I will take them to heart and adjust accordingly. Hope you continue to have a successful career, leading our beloved Elves forward, and post here to keep us updated. I found that this forum (which I have been a part of for over a year and a half) is a collection of people who sincerely love this archtype and are respectful to all ideas and challenges. I really do hope you will continue to stay connected.
Thanks so much!
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
Selfless Spirit on MD!
Hey Liam, I want to congratulate you on your win!
Not being able to decide between the 2 modes is the reason I've got 4 Leads main and 3 Chords side; this has resulted in my toolbox being a lot smaller, though. I think you're right about Chords making the deck less linear in a sense, but Shaman also provide a different angle of attack; a lot of players have boarded in Bridges and Ghostly Prisons against me only to realize I don't need a combat phase to win.
Ultimately though it boils down to the meta we're in, I totally agree with what you said couple posts back. I tried running the chord version and the sheer amount of Angers, Pyroclasms and Bolt-Snap-Bolt decks made me seek out a version that could keep coming back. I quickly found that Chords were often dead in my meta without a mass of elves to convoke with, and I simply needed to refill my hand.
I've got a question! Would you consider Leyline of the Void if Dredge continues on their trend? Or would you elect to race them?
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Thank you for taking the time to post. It's a huge boon to the Forum/Primer and is exceedingly helpful in letting us all learn from such a high level event. Your points about the mana base are particularly insightful.
It would take a while to explain the whole sideboard, but I can try to give you a list of what matchups each card is for. As for deciding what to board out, the cards I most often remove are the chord of callings when they're a very grindy deck (jund, nahiri control, etc.) or when they are playing a deck where it doesn't matter what creatures you have, just that you have a lot of them, and the one-ofs that don't preform well in the matchup (there's usually one or two). Also keep in mind two things when sideboarding: one is that you want your curve to remain relatively the same (if you are putting in two tree drops, try to take out similarly costed cards), and the other is that you retain a high density of creatures for CoCo.
Phyrexian Revoker- Affinity, decks with grim lavamancer, tron, elves (name ezuri), and decks that use a planeswalker as a win condition.
Aven Mindcensor- Chord of Calling decks, Tron, Valakut/Scapesift decks.
Burrenton Forge-Tender- Just about any red deck.
Chameleon Colossus- Jund and grixis, they don't have any removal that kills it, aside from using two burn spells when you can't pump it.
Elvish Champion- Most decks that play forests, with the exception of infect as they don't put up enough blockers for it to matter.
Essence Warden- The mirror, b/w tokens, merfolk, burn.
Kitchen Finks- Burn and other aggressive decks. I occasionally bring them in agains decks I know have boardwipes in the sideboard.
Eidolon of Rhetoric- Combo Decks (storm, ad nauseam, living end, etc.). This is the only card I'd change if I could go back. Most of the decks it is good against aren't very good right now. I'd replace it with a selfless spirit to help combat boardwipes.
Fracturing Gust- Affinity, Bogles, and any thopter/sword deck.
Path to Exile- Any deck that plays large creatures that make combat difficult (Kalitas, Goyf, etc.) and delver decks, so that they can't tempo you out with an insectile aberration.
Kataki- Affinity, Tron, thopter/sword decks.
Melira- Exclusively for infect. The only reason I have spellskite in the main is to make my game one much better.