LEH, i agree that blossom being unbanned is an indication that they're willing to try cards that were initially on the ban list. we can probably forget stuff that has been put on the list since after PT Philly, at least for a while. some of the actual safe unbans would be Sword of the Meek and GGT.
and if jund falls to tier 1.5, oh well. you'll be experiencing what all those WUR control (and scapeshift, and living end, and kiki-pod) players went through.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
LEH, i agree that blossom being unbanned is an indication that they're willing to try cards that were initially on the ban list. we can probably forget stuff that has been put on the list since after PT Philly, at least for a while. some of the actual safe unbans would be Sword of the Meek and GGT.
and if jund falls to tier 1.5, oh well. you'll be experiencing what all those WUR control (and scapeshift, and living end, and kiki-pod) players went through.
Only those decks got weaker because of meta changes, not because of bans.
Only those decks got weaker because of meta changes, not because of bans.
nah, those decks were not super good in the first place. there are only a handful of decks that were consistent enough and powerful enough to be considered tier 1, none of which were named (argument can be made for kiki-pod, but we'll forego that for now).
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after a couple of us had the "free 'blossom" and happened
woooo. small victories.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
Says the person who wants Jace in the format and for BBE to be banned forever.
I've never said to keep Elf banned forever, and you did just prove my point with that phrase since Jace is a better unban. I agree there's no priority in unbaning it and I'm not advocating for an unban, if anything my signature was a reaction to the whole "free elf" which came after a couple of us had the "free 'blossom" and happened.
I'd be lying if I wasn't a bit inspired by your signature. However, it's all in good fun to have "free X" in your sig, but after getting what you want ( Bitterblossom ) and then turning around and saying they should be denied ( Bloodbraid Elf ) something is kind of jerk move. No offense in all, but that's how I see it.
Ironically enough, I was a supporter of a BB unban and I wouldn't mind seeing Jace.
I don't see any more bans though, not even pod. As dominant as it is, that kind of card creates the reaction of printing more hate ala grafdiggers cage but better. It doesn't need much more than that. DRS would of requires a 1 mana rest in peace, STP back, or for it to be a friking 1/1 like mana dorks should be and die to gut shot.
Kind of a mute point right now but DRS was meant to be a SCM hoser, and it would have been useless at that if it could get Tragic Slip'ed or in Modern Gut Shot. However, they went a little overboard, especially at the last moment in R&D. "Now you know, and knowing is half the battle." G.I. Joe!
I can at least agree that there should be no bans.
BBE ended up being the fall guy for DRS. It was a massive error on R&D's part, and led to the format devolving to GBx or Gx decks dominating the others. I would expect it off sooner rather than later, especially since I don't think Jund is going to be a (tier 1/1.5) deck without it.
I'm pretty sure that pod will be banned... in 2016 or 2017...
Being serius, pod have a very dangerous nature, the same dangerous nature of Stoneforge: It's a tutor and a cheater in one card. NOW pod doesn't seems banable, but due to it's tutor/cheat nature, sooner or later a card to break it further will be printed. But since this is not something on our sight, it's pointless to dicuss.
On BBE subject. An 3/2 haste is worth 3 manas, so you basically paying 1 mana for the cascade. Other cascade card are very subpar, where you get effects that are worth 1-2 mana on cards that cost 4-5. The 3 mana cascade are effects that aren't worth 1 mana in some cases.
Looking at some of these plays (that aren't really too magical christmasy) has me wondering if #7 below really is in a whole other league such that it deserves to be banned. You have ways to combat #7 just as you have ways to combat #1-6.
Very good way to support your argument, you use best-case-scenarios for the thing you want to support, and a not-so-good-scenario for the thing you want to devaluate.
Replace the "7) Turn 4 Bloodbraid Elf revealing Tarmogoyf" with "7) Turn 4 Bloodbraid Elf revealing Maelstrom Pulse" or "7) Turn 4 Bloodbraid Elf revealing Liliana of the Veil". It seems far more powerful now.
Also you are ignoring that it's not because a single interaction, but about the overall power increase that it's banned. Supporting your argument on a single card interaction and saying that it shouldn't be banned because this interaction is not as powerful as other interactions don't seems very profitable...
I'm pretty sure that pod will be banned... in 2016 or 2017...
Being serius, pod have a very dangerous nature, the same dangerous nature of Stoneforge: It's a tutor and a cheater in one card. NOW pod doesn't seems banable, but due to it's tutor/cheat nature, sooner or later a card to break it further will be printed. But since this is not something on our sight, it's pointless to dicuss.
I agree with you, but only partially. While I also view pod as something that's just waiting to be broken, it's not as easily broken on a Stoneforge Mystic level but on a Bloodbraid Elf level. Stoneforge Mystic is a simple inclusion to any deck that's why it's so broken. Add 4 Stoneforge Mystic, add 3-4 high powel level equipments and there you go. Bloodbraid Elf is broken due to the high power level of cascade targets in the deck that uses it, meaning you have to stuff your deck with good stuff to have a broken cascade. You have to build your library to abuse it, and still have some inconsistencies due to the randomness of cascade. Pod also have that same potential as BBE, if there are enough value creatures at every Pod chain from 1 to 5 on the same power level as Voice of Resurgence (efficient cc for body, etb or dies trigger and have effect on the board state). So you also have to build your deck around the Pod chain.
Frankly, I don't see no good reason to ban Pod. Not now, not in three years time. It is powerful, true. It will probably get better with more creatures seeing print, true. It's relatively hard to disrupt both parts of the deck's strategy, true.
However, the deck is very much beatable and it takes at least two-three turns to do it's "thing" (although against an inactive opponent you could get infinite life on turn three). The deck, at present, doesn't break the turn four rule, is unique to Modern in every way and, probably most importantly, it doesn't have a metagame share big enough to warrant serious consideration for bans.
I don't think it's likely for the deck to pick up much speed, at least in the short term, since it has a pretty steep learning curve compared to some of the other decks out there. It's kind of like those decks that seem nigh unbeatable if played correctly but is a complete pile in the hands of a novice.
So lats just put away the banhammers and observe how the recent changes are influencing the format.
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Theres a 2 mana Haste, First Strike creature that has an ability, a 3/2 Haste (in power creep terms) is worth the Green and Red mana in BBEs casting cost meaning you get to cast a RANDOM spell with CMC of between 1 and 3 for 2 colorless mana. Sure, that's good in itself however that colorless mana come after many decks have the ability to win the game and you don't get to choose the spell, it's random chance.
It has 3 power? No.
It is Rare? Yes.
And this card is RR, Wich MORE restrictive than RG.
3/2 HASTE for RG at uncommon? You kidding right?
And people here complain about DRS... but think a RG Haste 3/2 at uncommon is fine... how much people can become biased when they want want to support their pets? (And this comming from a person who bought a set of FNM BBE one month before the ban, and that have it as the 4th most beloved card in the collection)
BBE is actually banned due to Jund dominating the format and being the only card solely played by the deck out of the whole shell. BBEs banning had nothing to do with power and more to do with being the figurehead of a deck that became too strong.
Understanding the context is a very good talent. BBE ban had to do with the INCREASE OF POWER (OF JUND), not the increase of power of itself (afterall how a card increase its own power? they increase the power of the decks they are).
In regards to the erratas it can just as easily be: "Turn 4 BBE revealing Thoughtseize (when opponent has an empty hand or an Instant that they can cast" or "Turn 4 BBE revealing Maelstrom Pulse with nothing or something with Hexproof like Geist of Saint Traft in play" or "Turn 4 BBE revealing Liliana of the Veil with one already in play or a swarm of tokens or "Turn 4 BBE revealing Dark Confidant on under 5 life". The point is, you tend to cast BBE as a spell searching for an answer for something, sometimes you don't hit it and you're paying 4 mana for a 3/2 Haste chump blocker. The only time you cast BBE when you're guaranteed value is when your opponent has: permanents and/or creatures in play, cards in hand and you have lots of life, you can't go wrong at that point with BBE, although at that point your opponent usually isn't actually doing too badly and is usually an indication that you require that BBE and Cascade to stay in the game. For every game BBE has won me that I had no business winning DRS has won me 3 games I had no business winning, same point goes for every game where BBE has kept me alive in a game.
The point is that you need to KNOW when to play BBE, in fact you need to know when to play ANY card. Suggesting that it's power is lower than it actually is based on MISSPLAYS. (like playing BBE on an empty field) is a BAD way to evaluated the cards power.
If BBE was the way you trying to imply she is, she wouldn't be played even on legacy jund, because she would be a bad card if she played like you saying. She is lightyears better than what you trying to imply.
I agree with you, but only partially. While I also view pod as something that's just waiting to be broken, it's not as easily broken on a Stoneforge Mystic level but on a Bloodbraid Elf level.
Didn't inteded to say that Pod was on the same level as SFM. SFM is a lot of levels abouve Pod. But they have the same breakable nature, wich i could add GSZ to the mix: tutors that cheats things in play. Two of the most efficient cards with this role are banned, and pod is the next on the line. It may take long for that, but it may be on the next set. Who knows.
Frankly, I don't see no good reason to ban Pod. Not now, not in three years time. [...]
However, the deck is very much beatable
NOW pod is beatable, but how do you can say for sure that this will not change with new cards, considering that it can cheat and tutor for them?
Many people claim that SFM is broken because of another single card, and if that card didn't exist it wouldn't be so broken. This can be the same of pod. (Although in the case of SFM, people are understimating her, she is more than a batterskull tutor)
I'm pretty sure that pod will be banned... in 2016 or 2017...
Being serius, pod have a very dangerous nature, the same dangerous nature of Stoneforge: It's a tutor and a cheater in one card. NOW pod doesn't seems banable, but due to it's tutor/cheat nature, sooner or later a card to break it further will be printed. But since this is not something on our sight, it's pointless to dicuss.
On BBE subject. An 3/2 haste is worth 3 manas, so you basically paying 1 mana for the cascade. Other cascade card are very subpar, where you get effects that are worth 1-2 mana on cards that cost 4-5. The 3 mana cascade are effects that aren't worth 1 mana in some cases.
Looking at some of these plays (that aren't really too magical christmasy) has me wondering if #7 below really is in a whole other league such that it deserves to be banned. You have ways to combat #7 just as you have ways to combat #1-6.
Very good way to support your argument, you use best-case-scenarios for the thing you want to support, and a not-so-good-scenario for the thing you want to devaluate.
Replace the "7) Turn 4 Bloodbraid Elf revealing Tarmogoyf" with "7) Turn 4 Bloodbraid Elf revealing Maelstrom Pulse" or "7) Turn 4 Bloodbraid Elf revealing Liliana of the Veil". It seems far more powerful now.
Also you are ignoring that it's not because a single interaction, but about the overall power increase that it's banned. Supporting your argument on a single card interaction and saying that it shouldn't be banned because this interaction is not as powerful as other interactions don't seems very profitable...
I don't know that nabbing Lilly or pulse off BBE is strictly better than goyf. Unless you're basing this purely off mana cost. Even so if you're saying those are best case I still don't see BBE -> Lilly as a head and shoulders above pestermite -> twin or search, search, Karn.
NOW pod is beatable, but how do you can say for sure that this will not change with new cards, considering that it can cheat and tutor for them?
Many people claim that SFM is broken because of another single card, and if that card didn't exist it wouldn't be so broken. This can be the same of pod. (Although in the case of SFM, people are understimating her, she is more than a batterskull tutor)
Shows what they know. Stoneforge Mystic was busted before the printing of Batterskull. If I would have to name any one card that makes Mystic broken for Modern it would be Sword of Feast and Famine. Conveniently, right now you could tutor up a bunch of other good equipment cards that aren't Batterskull, all of which would have a significant impact in a given match if they could be searched out and deployed reliably.
As for Pod, I can't really say when it will become too powerful to have around in Modern. If you really have such powers of foresight you should stop wasting time mucking around with Magic and go to some place where there's real money, like Wall Street. Point being, since we don't know if or when such a moment will occur, there is no real point on speculating on the ban of the card right now if it isn't broken now.
Focusing on the future is OK, but not at the expense of the present moment. That's a quote I think.
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Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Pod is a card that probably will be banned eventually, but hasn't yet crossed the line, so it gets to rock out until it becomes totally stupid. (Much like Survival lasted in Legacy until Vengevine ruined the party.)
According to the logic in this thread we all should commit suicide, because we can't rule out the possibility of running over a child while driving around the city in the future ....
To be fair, person evaluation is really hard.
Perhaps even harder than card evaluation.
Also I hope that "Pod is Modern's Survival" doesn't catch on.
I could concede to comparing it to Survival's fairer incarnation Fauna Shaman, I guess...
This is pulled directly from the last banning article on Wizards website: "Having a strong attrition-based deck as a large portion of the metagame makes it difficult for decks that are based on synergies between cards instead of individually powerful cards." What is frightening is WotC appears now to be saying that individually powerful cards that may or may not meet any of the previous criteria of bannible offenses are now fair game. Following from this, I'd say Pod is pretty safe since it is a deck that is based on card interactions, not on op individual cards. Birthing Pod is a very fair card for a turn 4 format. With all the gy hate out there still I'm not too worried about it getting out of control. Cards like Bob, Goyf, Lilly and Snapcaster are cards I'd be more worried about based off of the DRS ban. Apparently good cards can now be banned for being good.
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Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
It's been clear for a while now that Wizards doesn't actually have any set criteria for banning a card. They'll decide to weaken a deck and then work backwards to justify their reasoning with a generally disingenuous argument.
This is pulled directly from the last banning article on Wizards website: "Having a strong attrition-based deck as a large portion of the metagame makes it difficult for decks that are based on synergies between cards instead of individually powerful cards."
I am relieved to see wizards understands this. Decks that work by having their cards work together in a strategy are fun to play, but as long as removal is easy, it will be hard to play them. It's like playing a combo deck, but with more than 2 pieces. One counterspell or hand disruption can totally ruin your strategy. Compare that to good stuff decks. Good stuff decks don't care what they draw, because everything they draw is good. But ramp decks do care: too much ramp and they lose, to little and they don't get to play their bombs. Good stuff decks are pretty boring. It's like button mashing when really you want to be playing chess. Or like the 'swordfight' in Indiana Jones. Wizards want to encourage strategy and depth in magic, and attrition cards penalize those things.
I think this is the reason noobs hate counter spelling and disruption so much: because you start magic by falling in love with the cards. Nobody starts playing magic because they love how Tarmogoyf is an efficient beater, they fall in love with some cool card. Then, later, they learn the truth: interesting cards lose to boring efficient cards.
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Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
Deathrite Shaman wasn't just banned for being good, it was banned for being good in a way that negated other decks.
Take Snapcaster Mage. Snapcaster is an amazing card. It's very powerful. It's good against basically every deck in the format. But when you're playing some sweet brew or even an established deck, when you lose, you don't think back on the game and think "man, that Snapcaster mage was devastating!" That's because, while snapcaster is good, it doesn't negate other's strategies. It dramatically boosts the consistency of whatever deck it's in, and the fact that it functions as removal and countermagic and card draw is very powerful, but there is no deck out there that is rendered unplayable because everybody is playing Snapcasters. Its value against your deck is only as high as the instants and sorceries around it.
The same is true for Bob, Liliana, and Goyf. They're all extremely powerful cards, and can and will beat a lot of decks. But Bob is just a bear that draws you cards. The best bear ever printed, but fundamentally just a bear. When you lose to being grinded out by a Bob, it's because you're losing to all the extra cards you're drawing. Bob's powerful because he's drawing you more of your normal awesome cards. Goyf is literally just a big creature. Sure, it's an amazing big creature, but it hardly feels oppressive when you lose to goyf beatdown. Liliana is a bit more oppressive in this way, but at the same time it's a 3-mana investment, it's hurting your opponent a bit too, even if it hurts you more, and when you answer it, you do so with a gain in tempo.
Deathrite Shaman is the polar opposite of that. It's a 1-drop creature, so the best you can do with killing it is doing so for 1 mana. Any more and it's a tempo gain for your opponent even if you answer it. There are no counterspells in modern that work on a turn 1 deathrite. If it survives, it can function as Birds of Paradise and Grim Lavamancer and a way to gain life. It accelerates your opponent into all kinds of crazy spells. And most importantly, it does so by negating other strategies? You want to play a huge Knight of the Reliquary? Too bad. It's a great card, but I have deathrite, so I'm gonna shrink it with maindeck graveyard hate while ramping into awesome stuff. You want to recur Life from the Loam and do crazy things? Too bad. It's a great card, but I have deathrite, so I'm gonna cut that short and deal you damage in the process. And if you try to answer it (as you could vs Bob with 1 mana removal, snapcaster with any sort of counterspell or just racing, or Liliana with counterspells, manlands, any number of things), you are doing nothing but wasting a card on a 1-drop creature. It's not just the best 1-drop in the game: it's a 1-drop that negates what you're trying to do, while simultaneously helping your opponent do awesome things. That's why it was banned and not Snapcaster when Snapcaster sees more play in Modern.
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Go to my blog, Musings of the False God, for in-depth guides playing the game, from the building blocks of deck design to deceiving your opponent through clever game play!
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
Pod is a card that probably will be banned eventually, but hasn't yet crossed the line, so it gets to rock out until it becomes totally stupid. (Much like Survival lasted in Legacy until Vengevine ruined the party.)
I agree; this is likely what will be the future of Birthing Pod. Once Wizards screws up and inevitably prints the one creature that breaks Pod in half, it'll get banned. For now at least, it'll stay until that one creature (or combination of creatures) comes out.
Just to nitpick, I wouldn't call a card expended on Deathrite a card wasted.
Though there's a bit of complexity to the value evaluation of killing him.
N+1 mana to answer an N-cmc card, that's usually the upper limit of an acceptable one-for-one in my books.
For me, the issue with Hamlet was actually with using Fetchlands to ramp into a Turn 2 LotV. Since I actually used DRS for other purposes (pushing through extra damage, mostly) his banning has annoyed me greatly. Alas, poor Yorick!
While that is true, the removal played in Modern mostly isn't removal you want to point at Deathrite, or is better alongside deathrite. Bolt is solid, of course, and Lightning Helix on a deathrite is a defensible play, but are you really going to Path a turn-1 Deathrite? Are you going to waste an Abrupt Decay or a Maelstrom Pulse on him? If he had 1 toughness Electrolyze would be a perfectly reasonable play against him, since you could shoot him and a 1-loyalty liliana or a bob or whatever and draw a card, but since he has 2 toughness the utility there is limited, especially since Electrolyze is a 3-mana play. Dismembering him costs 4 life into the bargain, which means that unless I missed something, there really isn't all that much removal that's worth using on Deathrite Shaman in the format. There's definitely complexity to evaluating how he interacts with removal, but my experience is that if you're spending time trading with a Deathrite, that's probably not a game you're gonna win.
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Go to my blog, Musings of the False God, for in-depth guides playing the game, from the building blocks of deck design to deceiving your opponent through clever game play!
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
This is pulled directly from the last banning article on Wizards website: "Having a strong attrition-based deck as a large portion of the metagame makes it difficult for decks that are based on synergies between cards instead of individually powerful cards."
I am relieved to see wizards understands this. Decks that work by having their cards work together in a strategy are fun to play, but as long as removal is easy, it will be hard to play them. It's like playing a combo deck, but with more than 2 pieces. One counterspell or hand disruption can totally ruin your strategy. Compare that to good stuff decks. Good stuff decks don't care what they draw, because everything they draw is good. But ramp decks do care: too much ramp and they lose, to little and they don't get to play their bombs. Good stuff decks are pretty boring. It's like button mashing when really you want to be playing chess. Or like the 'swordfight' in Indiana Jones. Wizards want to encourage strategy and depth in magic, and attrition cards penalize those things.
I think this is the reason noobs hate counter spelling and disruption so much: because you start magic by falling in love with the cards. Nobody starts playing magic because they love how Tarmogoyf is an efficient beater, they fall in love with some cool card. Then, later, they learn the truth: interesting cards lose to boring efficient cards.
QFT.
Imo, we need even more penalties for Goodstuffs decks. I think the next logical place to start is the mana base.
NOW pod is beatable, but how do you can say for sure that this will not change with new cards, considering that it can cheat and tutor for them?
Many people claim that SFM is broken because of another single card, and if that card didn't exist it wouldn't be so broken. This can be the same of pod. (Although in the case of SFM, people are understimating her, she is more than a batterskull tutor)
Shows what they know. Stoneforge Mystic was busted before the printing of Batterskull. If I would have to name any one card that makes Mystic broken for Modern it would be Sword of Feast and Famine. Conveniently, right now you could tutor up a bunch of other good equipment cards that aren't Batterskull, all of which would have a significant impact in a given match if they could be searched out and deployed reliably.
As for Pod, I can't really say when it will become too powerful to have around in Modern. If you really have such powers of foresight you should stop wasting time mucking around with Magic and go to some place where there's real money, like Wall Street. Point being, since we don't know if or when such a moment will occur, there is no real point on speculating on the ban of the card right now if it isn't broken now.
Focusing on the future is OK, but not at the expense of the present moment. That's a quote I think.
SFM was not broken without Batterskull. In Standard, I think that it could have survived without a ban if Batterskull had never been printed. In Modern, Jitte is banned. Assuming that Batterskull didn't exist, all that it would do in Modern is be a Sword tutor. I'd say that that is less broken than Snapcaster Mage. A 1/2 in white is 1 mana. Add on 1 more mana for the Steelshaper's Gift and add the other ability because it is Rare. It would be a 1/2 that tutors for swords once and can get them out at instant speed on the next turn for 1 less mana at the cost of tapping it. Compared to Snapcaster Mage, which is a 2/1 with flash in a color that usually doesn't get good creatures and recurs any spell that you have played over the whole game. Which seems more broken to you?
This is pulled directly from the last banning article on Wizards website: "Having a strong attrition-based deck as a large portion of the metagame makes it difficult for decks that are based on synergies between cards instead of individually powerful cards."
I am relieved to see wizards understands this. Decks that work by having their cards work together in a strategy are fun to play, but as long as removal is easy, it will be hard to play them. It's like playing a combo deck, but with more than 2 pieces. One counterspell or hand disruption can totally ruin your strategy. Compare that to good stuff decks. Good stuff decks don't care what they draw, because everything they draw is good. But ramp decks do care: too much ramp and they lose, to little and they don't get to play their bombs. Good stuff decks are pretty boring. It's like button mashing when really you want to be playing chess. Or like the 'swordfight' in Indiana Jones. Wizards want to encourage strategy and depth in magic, and attrition cards penalize those things.
I think this is the reason noobs hate counter spelling and disruption so much: because you start magic by falling in love with the cards. Nobody starts playing magic because they love how Tarmogoyf is an efficient beater, they fall in love with some cool card. Then, later, they learn the truth: interesting cards lose to boring efficient cards.
So cards should be banned because they enable decks that you think are boring?
SFM was not broken without Batterskull. In Standard, I think that it could have survived without a ban if Batterskull had never been printed. In Modern, Jitte is banned. Assuming that Batterskull didn't exist, all that it would do in Modern is be a Sword tutor. I'd say that that is less broken than Snapcaster Mage. A 1/2 in white is 1 mana. Add on 1 more mana for the Steelshaper's Gift and add the other ability because it is Rare. It would be a 1/2 that tutors for swords once and can get them out at instant speed on the next turn for 1 less mana at the cost of tapping it. Compared to Snapcaster Mage, which is a 2/1 with flash in a color that usually doesn't get good creatures and recurs any spell that you have played over the whole game. Which seems more broken to you?
Bustedskull made the deck better, but it was already broke with SoFaF. The deck had a strangle hold on the format long before bustedskull was ever printed.
Heaven forbid people can play decks that aren't reliant upon drawing certain cards at
the right time, or collapse like a stack of jenga when a card is countered/removed, even though it was
the most mediocre of counters/removal.
I play midrange decks not because I want to "button mash" it's because I don't want to be screw over
by something I can easily prevent, by not relying on each card coming together perfectly. This is why I can never play EDH. I'll just easily stop some guys weak combo and he'll just sit there sulking like a five year old.
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and if jund falls to tier 1.5, oh well. you'll be experiencing what all those WUR control (and scapeshift, and living end, and kiki-pod) players went through.
Only those decks got weaker because of meta changes, not because of bans.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
nah, those decks were not super good in the first place. there are only a handful of decks that were consistent enough and powerful enough to be considered tier 1, none of which were named (argument can be made for kiki-pod, but we'll forego that for now).
woooo. small victories.
I'd be lying if I wasn't a bit inspired by your signature. However, it's all in good fun to have "free X" in your sig, but after getting what you want ( Bitterblossom ) and then turning around and saying they should be denied ( Bloodbraid Elf ) something is kind of jerk move. No offense in all, but that's how I see it.
Ironically enough, I was a supporter of a BB unban and I wouldn't mind seeing Jace.
Kind of a mute point right now but DRS was meant to be a SCM hoser, and it would have been useless at that if it could get Tragic Slip'ed or in Modern Gut Shot. However, they went a little overboard, especially at the last moment in R&D. "Now you know, and knowing is half the battle." G.I. Joe!
I can at least agree that there should be no bans.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
Being serius, pod have a very dangerous nature, the same dangerous nature of Stoneforge: It's a tutor and a cheater in one card.
NOW pod doesn't seems banable, but due to it's tutor/cheat nature, sooner or later a card to break it further will be printed. But since this is not something on our sight, it's pointless to dicuss.
On BBE subject. An 3/2 haste is worth 3 manas, so you basically paying 1 mana for the cascade. Other cascade card are very subpar, where you get effects that are worth 1-2 mana on cards that cost 4-5. The 3 mana cascade are effects that aren't worth 1 mana in some cases.
Very good way to support your argument, you use best-case-scenarios for the thing you want to support, and a not-so-good-scenario for the thing you want to devaluate.
Replace the "7) Turn 4 Bloodbraid Elf revealing Tarmogoyf" with "7) Turn 4 Bloodbraid Elf revealing Maelstrom Pulse" or "7) Turn 4 Bloodbraid Elf revealing Liliana of the Veil". It seems far more powerful now.
Also you are ignoring that it's not because a single interaction, but about the overall power increase that it's banned. Supporting your argument on a single card interaction and saying that it shouldn't be banned because this interaction is not as powerful as other interactions don't seems very profitable...
I agree with you, but only partially. While I also view pod as something that's just waiting to be broken, it's not as easily broken on a Stoneforge Mystic level but on a Bloodbraid Elf level. Stoneforge Mystic is a simple inclusion to any deck that's why it's so broken. Add 4 Stoneforge Mystic, add 3-4 high powel level equipments and there you go. Bloodbraid Elf is broken due to the high power level of cascade targets in the deck that uses it, meaning you have to stuff your deck with good stuff to have a broken cascade. You have to build your library to abuse it, and still have some inconsistencies due to the randomness of cascade. Pod also have that same potential as BBE, if there are enough value creatures at every Pod chain from 1 to 5 on the same power level as Voice of Resurgence (efficient cc for body, etb or dies trigger and have effect on the board state). So you also have to build your deck around the Pod chain.
UWR Midrange
BRG Jund
BG Rock
UR Storm
The Philippine Modern Community
RGWUB MTG Modern Philippines
However, the deck is very much beatable and it takes at least two-three turns to do it's "thing" (although against an inactive opponent you could get infinite life on turn three). The deck, at present, doesn't break the turn four rule, is unique to Modern in every way and, probably most importantly, it doesn't have a metagame share big enough to warrant serious consideration for bans.
I don't think it's likely for the deck to pick up much speed, at least in the short term, since it has a pretty steep learning curve compared to some of the other decks out there. It's kind of like those decks that seem nigh unbeatable if played correctly but is a complete pile in the hands of a novice.
So lats just put away the banhammers and observe how the recent changes are influencing the format.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
It has 3 power? No.
It is Rare? Yes.
And this card is RR, Wich MORE restrictive than RG.
3/2 HASTE for RG at uncommon? You kidding right?
And people here complain about DRS... but think a RG Haste 3/2 at uncommon is fine... how much people can become biased when they want want to support their pets? (And this comming from a person who bought a set of FNM BBE one month before the ban, and that have it as the 4th most beloved card in the collection)
Understanding the context is a very good talent. BBE ban had to do with the INCREASE OF POWER (OF JUND), not the increase of power of itself (afterall how a card increase its own power? they increase the power of the decks they are).
The point is that you need to KNOW when to play BBE, in fact you need to know when to play ANY card. Suggesting that it's power is lower than it actually is based on MISSPLAYS. (like playing BBE on an empty field) is a BAD way to evaluated the cards power.
If BBE was the way you trying to imply she is, she wouldn't be played even on legacy jund, because she would be a bad card if she played like you saying. She is lightyears better than what you trying to imply.
Didn't inteded to say that Pod was on the same level as SFM. SFM is a lot of levels abouve Pod. But they have the same breakable nature, wich i could add GSZ to the mix: tutors that cheats things in play. Two of the most efficient cards with this role are banned, and pod is the next on the line. It may take long for that, but it may be on the next set. Who knows.
NOW pod is beatable, but how do you can say for sure that this will not change with new cards, considering that it can cheat and tutor for them?
Many people claim that SFM is broken because of another single card, and if that card didn't exist it wouldn't be so broken. This can be the same of pod. (Although in the case of SFM, people are understimating her, she is more than a batterskull tutor)
I don't know that nabbing Lilly or pulse off BBE is strictly better than goyf. Unless you're basing this purely off mana cost. Even so if you're saying those are best case I still don't see BBE -> Lilly as a head and shoulders above pestermite -> twin or search, search, Karn.
Shows what they know. Stoneforge Mystic was busted before the printing of Batterskull. If I would have to name any one card that makes Mystic broken for Modern it would be Sword of Feast and Famine. Conveniently, right now you could tutor up a bunch of other good equipment cards that aren't Batterskull, all of which would have a significant impact in a given match if they could be searched out and deployed reliably.
As for Pod, I can't really say when it will become too powerful to have around in Modern. If you really have such powers of foresight you should stop wasting time mucking around with Magic and go to some place where there's real money, like Wall Street. Point being, since we don't know if or when such a moment will occur, there is no real point on speculating on the ban of the card right now if it isn't broken now.
Focusing on the future is OK, but not at the expense of the present moment. That's a quote I think.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
To be fair, person evaluation is really hard.
Perhaps even harder than card evaluation.
Also I hope that "Pod is Modern's Survival" doesn't catch on.
I could concede to comparing it to Survival's fairer incarnation Fauna Shaman, I guess...
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I am relieved to see wizards understands this. Decks that work by having their cards work together in a strategy are fun to play, but as long as removal is easy, it will be hard to play them. It's like playing a combo deck, but with more than 2 pieces. One counterspell or hand disruption can totally ruin your strategy. Compare that to good stuff decks. Good stuff decks don't care what they draw, because everything they draw is good. But ramp decks do care: too much ramp and they lose, to little and they don't get to play their bombs. Good stuff decks are pretty boring. It's like button mashing when really you want to be playing chess. Or like the 'swordfight' in Indiana Jones. Wizards want to encourage strategy and depth in magic, and attrition cards penalize those things.
I think this is the reason noobs hate counter spelling and disruption so much: because you start magic by falling in love with the cards. Nobody starts playing magic because they love how Tarmogoyf is an efficient beater, they fall in love with some cool card. Then, later, they learn the truth: interesting cards lose to boring efficient cards.
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
Take Snapcaster Mage. Snapcaster is an amazing card. It's very powerful. It's good against basically every deck in the format. But when you're playing some sweet brew or even an established deck, when you lose, you don't think back on the game and think "man, that Snapcaster mage was devastating!" That's because, while snapcaster is good, it doesn't negate other's strategies. It dramatically boosts the consistency of whatever deck it's in, and the fact that it functions as removal and countermagic and card draw is very powerful, but there is no deck out there that is rendered unplayable because everybody is playing Snapcasters. Its value against your deck is only as high as the instants and sorceries around it.
The same is true for Bob, Liliana, and Goyf. They're all extremely powerful cards, and can and will beat a lot of decks. But Bob is just a bear that draws you cards. The best bear ever printed, but fundamentally just a bear. When you lose to being grinded out by a Bob, it's because you're losing to all the extra cards you're drawing. Bob's powerful because he's drawing you more of your normal awesome cards. Goyf is literally just a big creature. Sure, it's an amazing big creature, but it hardly feels oppressive when you lose to goyf beatdown. Liliana is a bit more oppressive in this way, but at the same time it's a 3-mana investment, it's hurting your opponent a bit too, even if it hurts you more, and when you answer it, you do so with a gain in tempo.
Deathrite Shaman is the polar opposite of that. It's a 1-drop creature, so the best you can do with killing it is doing so for 1 mana. Any more and it's a tempo gain for your opponent even if you answer it. There are no counterspells in modern that work on a turn 1 deathrite. If it survives, it can function as Birds of Paradise and Grim Lavamancer and a way to gain life. It accelerates your opponent into all kinds of crazy spells. And most importantly, it does so by negating other strategies? You want to play a huge Knight of the Reliquary? Too bad. It's a great card, but I have deathrite, so I'm gonna shrink it with maindeck graveyard hate while ramping into awesome stuff. You want to recur Life from the Loam and do crazy things? Too bad. It's a great card, but I have deathrite, so I'm gonna cut that short and deal you damage in the process. And if you try to answer it (as you could vs Bob with 1 mana removal, snapcaster with any sort of counterspell or just racing, or Liliana with counterspells, manlands, any number of things), you are doing nothing but wasting a card on a 1-drop creature. It's not just the best 1-drop in the game: it's a 1-drop that negates what you're trying to do, while simultaneously helping your opponent do awesome things. That's why it was banned and not Snapcaster when Snapcaster sees more play in Modern.
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
I agree; this is likely what will be the future of Birthing Pod. Once Wizards screws up and inevitably prints the one creature that breaks Pod in half, it'll get banned. For now at least, it'll stay until that one creature (or combination of creatures) comes out.
Though there's a bit of complexity to the value evaluation of killing him.
N+1 mana to answer an N-cmc card, that's usually the upper limit of an acceptable one-for-one in my books.
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
QFT.
Imo, we need even more penalties for Goodstuffs decks. I think the next logical place to start is the mana base.
SFM was not broken without Batterskull. In Standard, I think that it could have survived without a ban if Batterskull had never been printed. In Modern, Jitte is banned. Assuming that Batterskull didn't exist, all that it would do in Modern is be a Sword tutor. I'd say that that is less broken than Snapcaster Mage. A 1/2 in white is 1 mana. Add on 1 more mana for the Steelshaper's Gift and add the other ability because it is Rare. It would be a 1/2 that tutors for swords once and can get them out at instant speed on the next turn for 1 less mana at the cost of tapping it. Compared to Snapcaster Mage, which is a 2/1 with flash in a color that usually doesn't get good creatures and recurs any spell that you have played over the whole game. Which seems more broken to you?
So cards should be banned because they enable decks that you think are boring?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Bustedskull made the deck better, but it was already broke with SoFaF. The deck had a strangle hold on the format long before bustedskull was ever printed.
the right time, or collapse like a stack of jenga when a card is countered/removed, even though it was
the most mediocre of counters/removal.
I play midrange decks not because I want to "button mash" it's because I don't want to be screw over
by something I can easily prevent, by not relying on each card coming together perfectly. This is why I can never play EDH. I'll just easily stop some guys weak combo and he'll just sit there sulking like a five year old.