Welcome to the Modern banlist discussion! Here, you can discuss everything related to the banlist, from questioning the possibility of unbans to recent announcements of new bannings.
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Discussion about dramatically increasing the size of the banlist by more than 2-3 cards is not allowed. In the past, this sort of discussion has derailed the thread into completely unconstructive debate. There is a fine line between approved ban discussion (e.g. cards that are consistently breaking the turn 4 rule in top tier decks, or cards that make oppressive top tier decks) and spammy, prohibited discussion (e.g. banning Immolating Souleater and Fling because they theoretically break the turn 4 rule). If you see someone doing this, report them instead of responding to it. If you have a question about this, feel free to get in touch with staff to ask.
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Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Some cards enable a top tier deck to consistently win on turn 3 or earlier. Because this violates the "turn 4" rule of the format, the following cards have been banned:
Other cards have been banned because they make certain decks too consistent/reliable and thus stagnate the format. Here are some examples of these cards:
Some cards, currently only one, are banned because they were just mistakes. This card is one of the most broken cards of all time and has been banned in almost every format where it was or is legal:
Finally, there are some cards that were banned for logistical reasons. These cards made tournaments last too long and were banned to make events run smoother. They were not necessarily banned for power reasons.
This thread will go live on 2/10/2014, one week after the ban announcement was made
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I started this discussion at the very end of the other topic. In magic, being a creature is an inherent drawback. While the abilities on DRS are indeed powerful, I think a creature only belongs on the banlist if it does something truly degenerate. Stoneforge Mystic turn 3 batterskull and Golgari Grave Troll making the average dredge be above 4 would qualify.
DRS was too powerful because of turn 2 liliana.
BBE was too powerful because of cascading into liliana.
See the connection?
I think if you take Liliana away from Jund and give them back DRS and BBE, you end up having more of a aggro/midrange/tempo hybrid, but you take from them the card that just locked down board states. While DRS saw play in Pod and The Rock, BBE would see play in Zoo. Liliana, on the other hand, was pretty much the only exclusive Jund card.
While I hate playing against Liliana, and rarely played with it, I don't think it needs a ban. As you said, it's almost exclusively a Jund card. If it was as inherently powerful as you're asserting, it would see play in many more decks. It's simply a fair, but powerful tool for midrange to use.
Anyways, I was suspended when the announcement went live, so I can say it now, I LOVE THE NEW FORMAT. Holy bajeezus it's fantastic! And yes, y'all can laugh at me for saying BB would stay on the list, but in my defense, who expected them to make MULTIPLE legality changes? I think the card is fair now that Zoo is in the meta as well, and BB can't be played alongside efficient and powerful life gain at next to no cost. Also, the fact that Deathrite got axed just makes Eternal Ruse that much better
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I started this discussion at the very end of the other topic. In magic, being a creature is an inherent drawback. While the abilities on DRS are indeed powerful, I think a creature only belongs on the banlist if it does something truly degenerate. Stoneforge Mystic turn 3 batterskull and Golgari Grave Troll making the average dredge be above 4 would qualify.
DRS was too powerful because of turn 2 liliana.
BBE was too powerful because of cascading into liliana.
See the connection?
I think if you take Liliana away from Jund and give them back DRS and BBE, you end up having more of a aggro/midrange/tempo hybrid, but you take from them the card that just locked down board states. While DRS saw play in Pod and The Rock, BBE would see play in Zoo. Liliana, on the other hand, was pretty much the only exclusive Jund card.
Curious what people think about this.
I'd say that the problem with BBE wasn't cascading into Liliana. It was turn 3 BBE off of DRS. DRS is the problem card. BBE can be unbanned. Also, Liliana isn't keeping down decks like DRS was. It is the centerpiece of one of the format's control decks, which I am confident will be at least tier 2 when Waste Not comes out. In contrast, DRS was keeping down many graveyard-based strategies. Before people say that Scavenging Ooze did that, it was the only nail in the coffin. If you want to see how DRS affected graveyard-based decks, read through the WUR Delver thread. That deck used to be the best deck in the format and often ran the Gifts Ungiven/Unburial Rites combo in its sideboard. When Jund got Abrupt Decay, the matchup became hard, but it would have still been winnable if it wasn't for DRS. DRS invalidated the Gifts plan. It weakened Snapcaster. It allowed Jund to splash for Lingering Souls. WUR Delver might have a chance now in this meta, and unbanning DRS will wreck the chances of that deck. The same thing goes for Dredgevine, Storm, Eternal Command, and Griselbrand Reanimator. These decks do not need to be weakened. Unban Bloodbraid Elf. But DRS should not be unbanned and Liliana does not need to be banned. Also, I'm more than a little concerned about Wild Nacatl and DRS both being in the format at the same time in a potential Domain Zoo deck (though I suppose that Blood Moon could answer that).
Guess with a new thread I'll make a prediction of what people will be predicting, or at least
what I suspect to see in the next few months here. Let's face it, this thread is probably the most trafficked place in MTGS Modern.
#1. DRS, Pro and Con: I'm sure this topic will not simmer down for quite some time. Although I'll miss DRS, I understand why its banned. After all Modern isn't what "mikej wants" format. With DRS being banned it relates to my next prediction.
#2. Bloodbraid Elf: I can see this being a hot topic, since with DRS being banned there is no real good reason to keep BBE on the list. I'm sure people would like to see BGx/Jund down and out, or think BBE is some bargaining chip to allow JTMS in the format, but BBE herself isn't that scary and was only banned to help lower Jund's over performance.
#3. Scavenging Ooze: I don't see graveyard strategies being as successful as some believe. I can see the typical "I lose to it, so ban it" arguments against the Ooze.
#4. Fetchlands: I'm sure we haven't seen the last of people wanting a ban on fetchlands, all the while masking their discontent about the price.
Long term prediction I will gladly time stamp in this post.
Either Stoneforge Mystic or Jace, the Mind Sculptor will be unbanned prior to MM2, which most believe will be in 2015, so I'll stick to that date. Both would skyrocket in price if unbanned tomorrow and since MM2 will included Zen it makes sense to reprint them in preparation.
After the Pro Tour I can see Sword of the Meek, Bloodbraid Elf and maybe Ancestral Visions unbanned. Obviously there will be no changes for the release of JOU and M15. I imagine AV will make BBE unlikely to return, so Wizards doesn't want us cascading into awesome value, so that will probably be my cue to leave Modern.
Take what I say with a grain of salt and have fun arguing with one another.
Edit: Good to see you back, Tinfoil Hat. Modern wouldn't be the same without your amusing comments.
I would like to see Seething Song unbanned and Past in Flames get the axe. Past in Flames enables one deck - the current iteration of Storm. Seething Song enables at least three decks - Dragonstorm, Hive Mind, and All in Red. (Maybe Enduring Ideal? Maybe!?)
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
Guess with a new thread I'll make a prediction of what people will be predicting, or at least
what I suspect to see in the next few months here. Let's face it, this thread is probably the most trafficked place in MTGS Modern.
#1. DRS, Pro and Con: I'm sure this topic will not simmer down for quite some time. Although I'll miss DRS, I understand why its banned. After all Modern isn't what "mikej wants" format. With DRS being banned it relates to my next prediction.
#2. Bloodbraid Elf: I can see this being a hot topic, since with DRS being banned there is no real good reason to keep BBE on the list. I'm sure people would like to see BGx/Jund down and out, or think BBE is some bargaining chip to allow JTMS in the format, but BBE herself isn't that scary and was only banned to help lower Jund's over performance.
#3. Scavenging Ooze: I don't see graveyard strategies being as successful as some believe. I can see the typical "I lose to it, so ban it" arguments against the Ooze.
#4. Fetchlands: I'm sure we haven't seen the last of people wanting a ban on fetchlands, all the while masking their discontent about the price.
Long term prediction I will gladly time stamp in this post.
Either Stoneforge Mystic or Jace, the Mind Sculptor will be unbanned prior to MM2, which most believe will be in 2015, so I'll stick to that date. Both would skyrocket in price if unbanned tomorrow and since MM2 will included Zen it makes sense to reprint them in preparation.
After the Pro Tour I can see Sword of the Meek, Bloodbraid Elf and maybe Ancestral Visions unbanned. Obviously there will be no changes for the release of JOU and M15. I imagine AV will make BBE unlikely to return, so Wizards doesn't want us cascading into awesome value, so that will probably be my cue to leave Modern.
Take what I say with a grain of salt and have fun arguing with one another.
Edit: Good to see you back, Tinfoil Hat. Modern wouldn't be the same without your amusing comments.
I actually own sets of Misty's, Tarns, Flats with 2 or 3 Mesa's (I need to check that), and I think that the format would have been better with fetches banned from the outset. It's too late now, the backlash would be too much but I stand by my view.
I think that it is totally premature suggesting BBE unban. We didn't even see the effect of DRS ban on GBx, why power up it now when we don't even know if it NEEDS to be powered up?
It would be quite stupid to power up a deck that is already doing well and would bring nothing new for the format. So unless GBx totally vanish from competitive scene on the NEXT MONTHS (and not only on the first major event), it would be stupid to have BBE free.
#2. Bloodbraid Elf: I can see this being a hot topic, since with DRS being banned there is no real good reason to keep BBE on the list. I'm sure people would like to see BGx/Jund down and out, or think BBE is some bargaining chip to allow JTMS in the format, but BBE herself isn't that scary and was only banned to help lower Jund's over performance.
You said that "there is no reason" to keep BBE ban and then say exactly the reason to keep it there. There is no way now to know if that reason is now invalid. BBE Jund pre RTR was already a very strong tier 1 shell, and at that time it didn't have Abrupt Decay and Ooze. Bringing her back might result again in on Jund overperformance. Yes, it MIGHT not do this, but you have no way to be sure for that. The risks are too high for the benefits. BTW... WHAT BENEFITS? What good would this bring to modern? It would just make an already strong deck stronger, and in fact would reduce diversity of the GBx shell. At the time of BBE ban, Non-Jund GBx was less almost non-existant. Now we have Jund, Junk and Rock, decks that shares the same shell, but plays slightly differently. I don't see what BENEFIT other than "let's unban BBE because of reasons", and that is comming from someone who brought a set of FNM BEE few weeks before the ban, and loves the card.
So answer me those questios:
- How can you ensure that bringing BBE back will just not push Jund back to it's former position?
- What is good for modern having back a card that enables no deck? (in fact make variations of the GBx shell less interesting)
- If GBx still tier 1, what good having BBE free will do for modern?
If you can give a good reasoning other than "for the sake of having it free", then you might have a point.
I would like to see Seething Song unbanned and Past in Flames get the axe. Past in Flames enables one deck - the current iteration of Storm. Seething Song enables at least three decks - Dragonstorm, Hive Mind, and All in Red. (Maybe Enduring Ideal? Maybe!?)
I think it would be a good shakeup.
With both Gobli Electromancer and Seething Song. Storm doesn't really needs past in flames. It can chain rituals for huge epic experiments that wins the game on spot. And that at turn 3. The problem with electromancer + seething song is that it's two different tools to power up turn 3 storm combos. Making those fringe decks that did see almost no play even when song was legal is not a good trade off for the risk of a turn 3 combo on the format. Nono of those fringe decks make up for the risks of having a consistent turn 3 combo in the format.
I also love who people suggest "swap bans" that would make no difference at all (excet that it would unban their pet card and/or ban a card they dislike).
Wizards will not swap ban things like
Seething Song <-> Past in Flames
DSR and/or BBE <-> Liliana of the Veil
Stoneforge <-> Batterskull
Swap bans are not something Wizards do. If some of those cards prove to be a problem, they will ban it without unbaning anything.
We already have precendent for that with GGT. It was banned, it was proved that it WAS NOT A PROBLEM, and it still banned. Why? Because it will do NOTHING GOOD FOR THE FORMAT.
Unbans and bans are focused on IMPROVING the metagame (Ok, sometimes they go wrong, but the idea is always that). Bans will not be made just for filling checkboxes. And i agree with that, if ti will not make things better, why mess with?
So answer me those questions:
- How can you ensure that bringing BBE back will just not push Jund back to it's former position?
- What is good for modern having back a card that enables no deck? (in fact make variations of the GBx shell less interesting)
- If GBx still tier 1, what good having BBE free will do for modern?
1. I have no guarantees, and quite frankly nobody does when it comes to what's safe for Modern. Bloodbraid Elf is good and all, but its no Deathrite Shaman in regards to pushing a deck over the edge. Fae now has Bitterblossom and Zoo has Wild Nacatl, Jund having Bloodbraid Elf back will no make it out perform both those decks. I can bet good money on that.
2. Do you mean what decks other than GBx benefit from the Bloodbraid Elf? If that's what you meant, I believe Shamanism and Naya Vengevine ( a deck I ran back in the day ) would happily like to have BBE back. Naya midrange would definitely run it, but for argument sakes I think you wanted what decks that aren't super popular at the moment. As for BGx variants, we basically lost Ajundi with DRS being banned, and Junk has enough decent cards to differentiate from Jund. Bloodbraid Elf will not completely polarize all BGx decks into Jund.
3. Not to answer your question with a question, but isn't this the same as your first? If GBx is still tier1 than BBE would just be another good card in its arsenal. They are not going to unban cards solely for decks not performing well. For example, If they do decide to unban Stoneforge Mystic than it's obviously going to power up an already tier1 deck. Cards will be unban that make already good decks much better. Having Bloodbraid Elf, the epitome of midrange-y cards sitting next to stuff like Skullclamp, Hypergenesis and Mental Misstep is down right embarrassing for Modern.
1. I have no guarantees, and quite frankly nobody does when it comes to what's safe for Modern. Bloodbraid Elf is good and all, but its no Deathrite Shaman in regards to pushing a deck over the edge. Fae now has Bitterblossom and Zoo has Wild Nacatl, Jund having Bloodbraid Elf back will no make it out perform both those decks. I can bet good money on that.
No one can predict precisely what is safe or not, that is why "if it's not broken, don't fix".
2. Do you mean what decks other than GBx benefit from the Bloodbraid Elf? If that's what you meant, I believe Shamanism and Naya Vengevine ( a deck I ran back in the day ) would happily like to have BBE back. Naya midrange would definitely run it, but for argument sakes I think you wanted what decks that aren't super popular at the moment. As for BGx variants, we basically lost Ajundi with DRS being banned, and Junk has enough decent cards to differentiate from Jund. Bloodbraid Elf will not completely polarize all BGx decks into Jund.
Not only about decks that would use it. But overall metagame improvements.
Those decks you mentioned, except naya midrange aren't even tier 3 decks, so it wouldn't have real impact on the meta. Other than improving jund, that is not necessarely something good, what improvement it would bring to the modern meta? I actually don't see any improvement unless GBx dies, also we all know how BBE preys on control, so it would make things harder for control, on an extreme case even pushing control out of tier 1.
You say that Junk have 'enough decent cards to go different from jund', well it was also true at BBE era, and Junk wasn't even tier 2. With BBE there is no real reason to go outside of jund (talking about efficiency), since it simply better than anything Junk have to offer, and obiviously better than not using it and going rock.
3. Not to answer your question with a question, but isn't this the same as your first? If GBx is still tier1 than BBE would just be another good card in its arsenal. They are not going to unban cards solely for decks not performing well. For example, If they do decide to unban Stoneforge Mystic than it's obviously going to power up an already tier1 deck. Cards will be unban that make already good decks much better. Having Bloodbraid Elf, the epitome of midrange-y cards sitting next to stuff like Skullclamp, Hypergenesis and Mental Misstep is down right embarrassing for Modern.
If it's make the meta better, who cares if it is 'embarassing'? The priority should be the meta welfare, so if it pose risks for that welfare without potential benefits that outweight those risks, why mess with it? Unbans shouldn't be done just because "it doesn't feel right to keep it banned", should be done to improve the modern gameplay.
Junk isn't even tier1, unlike Jund and BG rock. What damage would Bloodbraid Elf do that banning DRS hasn't already done? I find it amusing that before people claimed BGx decks were one in the same when trying to justify a ban of DRS, then after that ban happened they now suddenly consider these decks to be separate when dismissing the possibility of unbanning BBE.
I can see GBx losing a lot of ground over the next few months to make unbanning Bloodbraid Elf a possibility. However, only time can tell, so I can't possibly give you an appropriate responce. Not even GP Richmond would be an accurate idea of what the meta will be like, since both Zoo and Fae going to be hyped and highly represented. Grand Prix Minneapolis will be the big deciding factor for me if the ban/unban was successful, and if GBx couldn't rebound from losing DRS.
Until then I will sit out and focus on other hobbies, like my gardening skills could use some improving.
Junk isn't even tier1, unlike Jund and BG rock. What damage would Bloodbraid Elf do that banning DRS hasn't already done?
Junk is at last tier 2 now. With BBE it would become close to non-existent. the same with Rock, that was also near to non-existent when BBE was around.
I find it amusing that before people claimed BGx decks were one in the same when trying to justify a ban of DRS, then after that ban happened they now suddenly consider these decks to be separate when dismissing the possibility of unbanning BBE.
Don't count me on those people, look every comment i ever made about GBx and you will see that i supported BBE ban over DRS from the start because it created variations of the GBx shell. Notice even that i almost never say "Jund" when refering to the GBx shell as a whole.
I can see GBx losing a lot of ground over the next few months to make unbanning Bloodbraid Elf a possibility. However, only time can tell, so I can't possibly give you an appropriate responce. Not even GP Richmond would be an accurate idea of what the meta will be like, since both Zoo and Fae going to be hyped and highly represented. Grand Prix Minneapolis will be the big deciding factor for me if the ban/unban was successful, and if GBx couldn't rebound from losing DRS.
exactly that is my point, we will have to wait at last until the fall set to have a solid base to say if it's safe or not to have BBE out. Although if GBx is well represented on this event, this might be a good sign that the ban was not so harmful to push gbx out.
Don't count me on those people, look every comment i ever made about GBx and you will see that i supported BBE ban over DRS from the start because it created variations of the GBx shell. Notice even that i almost never say "Jund" when refering to the GBx shell as a whole.
I apologize if you were offended, it wasn't directed at you and more my random musings.
exactly that is my point, we will have to wait at last until the fall set to have a solid base to say if it's safe or not to have BBE out. Although if GBx is well represented on this event, this might be a good sign that the ban was not so harmful to push gbx out.
I'm a little biased in wanting Bloodbraid Elf unbanned, but with creatures being the thing now in MtG and I can see BGx being
fine with something new. We'll have a good idea of the full meta in the early summer.
I'm wondering if Junk was more under explored rather than not competitive enough. The colors have a lot going for it. My defense of such a statement rests in my my friend's GWb good stuff midrange deck. It almost consistently shat on my Jund deck when we played modern since it had stuff like Loxodon Smiter, lingering souls, and wilt-lief liege. It was mostly GW, splashing black for lingering souls and Deathrite. The deck had game against the rest of the tier decks as well except for Tron, but pretty much every green-based midrange deck struggles against tron so that doesn't invalidate the deck. I know anecdotal evidence is kind of weak, but I can't do much better than that for an under explored archetype.
EDIT: I should add that that my friend's deck was still good against Jund even when BBE and Deathrite were still in the format so BBE didn't automatically shut it down.
I think that it is totally premature suggesting BBE unban. We didn't even see the effect of DRS ban on GBx, why power up it now when we don't even know if it NEEDS to be powered up?
It would be quite stupid to power up a deck that is already doing well and would bring nothing new for the format. So unless GBx totally vanish from competitive scene on the NEXT MONTHS (and not only on the first major event), it would be stupid to have BBE free.
This might sound a bit naive or pessimistic, but doesn't this apply to everything immediately following a change in the list? Zoo is a major threat(maybe). GBx is dead(probably not). GY strats are stronger(marginally). The point is, EVERYTHING has changed. Discussing any potential future changes without fully realizing the lasting effects from this most recent update is equally pointless. But yet we're here, we're talking. Might as well talk about everything.
But to throw my 2 cents at BBE, I always liked that card. And was physically dumbfounded when it was banned. It is not overpowered or degenerative in any way. Just felt like Wizards wanted to take something away from Jund, but didn't want to ban such a recently printed card(DRS), even though it was the one that was actually the problem.
I'm wondering if Junk was more under explored rather than not competitive enough. The colors have a lot going for it. My defense of such a statement rests in my my friend's GWb good stuff midrange deck. It almost consistently shat on my Jund deck when we played modern since it had stuff like Loxodon Smiter, lingering souls, and wilt-lief liege. It was mostly GW, splashing black for lingering souls and Deathrite. The deck had game against the rest of the tier decks as well except for Tron, but pretty much every green-based midrange deck struggles against tron so that doesn't invalidate the deck. I know anecdotal evidence is kind of weak, but I can't do much better than that for an under explored archetype.
EDIT: I should add that that my friend's deck was still good against Jund even when BBE and Deathrite were still in the format so BBE didn't automatically shut it down.
Without DRS, why would you play an inferior mostly WG Junk deck when you could play Hatebears?
I'm wondering if Junk was more under explored rather than not competitive enough. The colors have a lot going for it. My defense of such a statement rests in my my friend's GWb good stuff midrange deck. It almost consistently shat on my Jund deck when we played modern since it had stuff like Loxodon Smiter, lingering souls, and wilt-lief liege. It was mostly GW, splashing black for lingering souls and Deathrite. The deck had game against the rest of the tier decks as well except for Tron, but pretty much every green-based midrange deck struggles against tron so that doesn't invalidate the deck. I know anecdotal evidence is kind of weak, but I can't do much better than that for an under explored archetype.
EDIT: I should add that that my friend's deck was still good against Jund even when BBE and Deathrite were still in the format so BBE didn't automatically shut it down.
Without DRS, why would you play an inferior mostly WG Junk deck when you could play Hatebears?
Maybe he wants to genocide some creature decks or something?
Just in general I feel its too early to discuss new bans or unbans. The new list has been active less than a week. Lets see how Protour BotG and GP Richmond turn out before we demand the banhammer come down on something.
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Just in general I feel its too early to discuss new bans or unbans. The new list has been active less than a week. Lets see how Protour BotG and GP Richmond turn out before we demand the banhammer come down on something.
Well, after the recent announcement I'm kinda careful about what I wish to be unbanned. With some of the easier choices gone it seems harder to unban anything since the format "expanded" in the since that there are more viable decks, many under the radar strategies and a slew of other decks that we really
don't know much about. Releasing a card into such a format without serious forethought could lead to unexpected and unintended consequences.
On to the subject, Bloodbraid Elf might be premature at this point since we don't know how big a hit Jund has taken metagame share wise. It would have to be really significant for WotC to consider bringing this card back. Fast mana (talking about Chrome Mox, Rite of Flame, Seething Song, Cloudpost and, to a point, artifact lands), as a rule, shouldn't be taken into consideration lightly especially if you plan on sticking with the "Turn 4" rule of Modern. Then there are those no-go zones like Skullclamp or Hypergenesis which no one in their right mind considers to be safe for the format
The only card that looks undeniably safe to unban is Golgari Grave-Troll, though it may take quite some time before WotC, and the community itself, gets over it's heavy bias against Dredge and acknowledges that the card just isn't as bonkers as The Fear made it out to be.
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Big Update from the 2/4/2014 announcement:
Please follow a few simple rules while you are here.
Current DCI Modern Banned List
Here are some reasons that cards are banned in Modern:
Skullclamp
Sensei's Divining Top
Second Sunrise
Community Cup Announcement with the Initial Ban List.
1st Banned List change with explanations
2nd Banned List change with explanations
3rd Banned List change with explanations
Removal of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Addition of Bloodbraid Elf and Seething Song
Addition of Second Sunrise
Bitterblossom/Nacatl Unbanned. DRS Banned
Old threads:
1/20/2014 - 2/10/2014
6/23/2014 - 1/20/2014
4/22/2013 - 6/23/213
1/27/2013 - 4/22/13
9/20/2012 - 1/27/2013
7/19/2012 - 9/20/2012
It will be closed 1 week after the next update (aside from "No changes") and a new thread will take its place.
Remember to keep your discussion constructive and civil. If you see someone breaking rules, use the report feature and let the mods handle it. Make sure to follow all forum, subforum, and thread rules when posting. Enjoy the lively conversation!
Warning for spamming. When talking about bans, always have some constructive arguments to back up your claims
-ktkenshinx-
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Add to banlist:
Liliana of the Veil
Unban:
Preordain
Deathrite Shaman
Bloodbraid Elf
I started this discussion at the very end of the other topic. In magic, being a creature is an inherent drawback. While the abilities on DRS are indeed powerful, I think a creature only belongs on the banlist if it does something truly degenerate. Stoneforge Mystic turn 3 batterskull and Golgari Grave Troll making the average dredge be above 4 would qualify.
DRS was too powerful because of turn 2 liliana.
BBE was too powerful because of cascading into liliana.
See the connection?
I think if you take Liliana away from Jund and give them back DRS and BBE, you end up having more of a aggro/midrange/tempo hybrid, but you take from them the card that just locked down board states. While DRS saw play in Pod and The Rock, BBE would see play in Zoo. Liliana, on the other hand, was pretty much the only exclusive Jund card.
Curious what people think about this.
Just unban Bloodbraid Elf
Anyways, I was suspended when the announcement went live, so I can say it now, I LOVE THE NEW FORMAT. Holy bajeezus it's fantastic! And yes, y'all can laugh at me for saying BB would stay on the list, but in my defense, who expected them to make MULTIPLE legality changes? I think the card is fair now that Zoo is in the meta as well, and BB can't be played alongside efficient and powerful life gain at next to no cost. Also, the fact that Deathrite got axed just makes Eternal Ruse that much better
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
I'd say that the problem with BBE wasn't cascading into Liliana. It was turn 3 BBE off of DRS. DRS is the problem card. BBE can be unbanned. Also, Liliana isn't keeping down decks like DRS was. It is the centerpiece of one of the format's control decks, which I am confident will be at least tier 2 when Waste Not comes out. In contrast, DRS was keeping down many graveyard-based strategies. Before people say that Scavenging Ooze did that, it was the only nail in the coffin. If you want to see how DRS affected graveyard-based decks, read through the WUR Delver thread. That deck used to be the best deck in the format and often ran the Gifts Ungiven/Unburial Rites combo in its sideboard. When Jund got Abrupt Decay, the matchup became hard, but it would have still been winnable if it wasn't for DRS. DRS invalidated the Gifts plan. It weakened Snapcaster. It allowed Jund to splash for Lingering Souls. WUR Delver might have a chance now in this meta, and unbanning DRS will wreck the chances of that deck. The same thing goes for Dredgevine, Storm, Eternal Command, and Griselbrand Reanimator. These decks do not need to be weakened. Unban Bloodbraid Elf. But DRS should not be unbanned and Liliana does not need to be banned. Also, I'm more than a little concerned about Wild Nacatl and DRS both being in the format at the same time in a potential Domain Zoo deck (though I suppose that Blood Moon could answer that).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
what I suspect to see in the next few months here. Let's face it, this thread is probably the most trafficked place in MTGS Modern.
#1. DRS, Pro and Con: I'm sure this topic will not simmer down for quite some time. Although I'll miss DRS, I understand why its banned. After all Modern isn't what "mikej wants" format. With DRS being banned it relates to my next prediction.
#2. Bloodbraid Elf: I can see this being a hot topic, since with DRS being banned there is no real good reason to keep BBE on the list. I'm sure people would like to see BGx/Jund down and out, or think BBE is some bargaining chip to allow JTMS in the format, but BBE herself isn't that scary and was only banned to help lower Jund's over performance.
#3. Scavenging Ooze: I don't see graveyard strategies being as successful as some believe. I can see the typical "I lose to it, so ban it" arguments against the Ooze.
#4. Fetchlands: I'm sure we haven't seen the last of people wanting a ban on fetchlands, all the while masking their discontent about the price.
Long term prediction I will gladly time stamp in this post.
Either Stoneforge Mystic or Jace, the Mind Sculptor will be unbanned prior to MM2, which most believe will be in 2015, so I'll stick to that date. Both would skyrocket in price if unbanned tomorrow and since MM2 will included Zen it makes sense to reprint them in preparation.
After the Pro Tour I can see Sword of the Meek, Bloodbraid Elf and maybe Ancestral Visions unbanned. Obviously there will be no changes for the release of JOU and M15. I imagine AV will make BBE unlikely to return, so Wizards doesn't want us cascading into awesome value, so that will probably be my cue to leave Modern.
Take what I say with a grain of salt and have fun arguing with one another.
Edit: Good to see you back, Tinfoil Hat. Modern wouldn't be the same without your amusing comments.
I think it would be a good shakeup.
I actually own sets of Misty's, Tarns, Flats with 2 or 3 Mesa's (I need to check that), and I think that the format would have been better with fetches banned from the outset. It's too late now, the backlash would be too much but I stand by my view.
It would be quite stupid to power up a deck that is already doing well and would bring nothing new for the format. So unless GBx totally vanish from competitive scene on the NEXT MONTHS (and not only on the first major event), it would be stupid to have BBE free.
You said that "there is no reason" to keep BBE ban and then say exactly the reason to keep it there. There is no way now to know if that reason is now invalid. BBE Jund pre RTR was already a very strong tier 1 shell, and at that time it didn't have Abrupt Decay and Ooze. Bringing her back might result again in on Jund overperformance. Yes, it MIGHT not do this, but you have no way to be sure for that. The risks are too high for the benefits. BTW... WHAT BENEFITS? What good would this bring to modern? It would just make an already strong deck stronger, and in fact would reduce diversity of the GBx shell. At the time of BBE ban, Non-Jund GBx was less almost non-existant. Now we have Jund, Junk and Rock, decks that shares the same shell, but plays slightly differently. I don't see what BENEFIT other than "let's unban BBE because of reasons", and that is comming from someone who brought a set of FNM BEE few weeks before the ban, and loves the card.
So answer me those questios:
- How can you ensure that bringing BBE back will just not push Jund back to it's former position?
- What is good for modern having back a card that enables no deck? (in fact make variations of the GBx shell less interesting)
- If GBx still tier 1, what good having BBE free will do for modern?
If you can give a good reasoning other than "for the sake of having it free", then you might have a point.
With both Gobli Electromancer and Seething Song. Storm doesn't really needs past in flames. It can chain rituals for huge epic experiments that wins the game on spot. And that at turn 3. The problem with electromancer + seething song is that it's two different tools to power up turn 3 storm combos. Making those fringe decks that did see almost no play even when song was legal is not a good trade off for the risk of a turn 3 combo on the format. Nono of those fringe decks make up for the risks of having a consistent turn 3 combo in the format.
I also love who people suggest "swap bans" that would make no difference at all (excet that it would unban their pet card and/or ban a card they dislike).
Wizards will not swap ban things like
Seething Song <-> Past in Flames
DSR and/or BBE <-> Liliana of the Veil
Stoneforge <-> Batterskull
Swap bans are not something Wizards do. If some of those cards prove to be a problem, they will ban it without unbaning anything.
We already have precendent for that with GGT. It was banned, it was proved that it WAS NOT A PROBLEM, and it still banned. Why? Because it will do NOTHING GOOD FOR THE FORMAT.
Unbans and bans are focused on IMPROVING the metagame (Ok, sometimes they go wrong, but the idea is always that). Bans will not be made just for filling checkboxes. And i agree with that, if ti will not make things better, why mess with?
the upcoming months.
1. I have no guarantees, and quite frankly nobody does when it comes to what's safe for Modern. Bloodbraid Elf is good and all, but its no Deathrite Shaman in regards to pushing a deck over the edge. Fae now has Bitterblossom and Zoo has Wild Nacatl, Jund having Bloodbraid Elf back will no make it out perform both those decks. I can bet good money on that.
2. Do you mean what decks other than GBx benefit from the Bloodbraid Elf? If that's what you meant, I believe Shamanism and Naya Vengevine ( a deck I ran back in the day ) would happily like to have BBE back. Naya midrange would definitely run it, but for argument sakes I think you wanted what decks that aren't super popular at the moment. As for BGx variants, we basically lost Ajundi with DRS being banned, and Junk has enough decent cards to differentiate from Jund. Bloodbraid Elf will not completely polarize all BGx decks into Jund.
3. Not to answer your question with a question, but isn't this the same as your first? If GBx is still tier1 than BBE would just be another good card in its arsenal. They are not going to unban cards solely for decks not performing well. For example, If they do decide to unban Stoneforge Mystic than it's obviously going to power up an already tier1 deck. Cards will be unban that make already good decks much better. Having Bloodbraid Elf, the epitome of midrange-y cards sitting next to stuff like Skullclamp, Hypergenesis and Mental Misstep is down right embarrassing for Modern.
Not only about decks that would use it. But overall metagame improvements.
Those decks you mentioned, except naya midrange aren't even tier 3 decks, so it wouldn't have real impact on the meta. Other than improving jund, that is not necessarely something good, what improvement it would bring to the modern meta? I actually don't see any improvement unless GBx dies, also we all know how BBE preys on control, so it would make things harder for control, on an extreme case even pushing control out of tier 1.
You say that Junk have 'enough decent cards to go different from jund', well it was also true at BBE era, and Junk wasn't even tier 2. With BBE there is no real reason to go outside of jund (talking about efficiency), since it simply better than anything Junk have to offer, and obiviously better than not using it and going rock.
If it's make the meta better, who cares if it is 'embarassing'? The priority should be the meta welfare, so if it pose risks for that welfare without potential benefits that outweight those risks, why mess with it? Unbans shouldn't be done just because "it doesn't feel right to keep it banned", should be done to improve the modern gameplay.
I can see GBx losing a lot of ground over the next few months to make unbanning Bloodbraid Elf a possibility. However, only time can tell, so I can't possibly give you an appropriate responce. Not even GP Richmond would be an accurate idea of what the meta will be like, since both Zoo and Fae going to be hyped and highly represented. Grand Prix Minneapolis will be the big deciding factor for me if the ban/unban was successful, and if GBx couldn't rebound from losing DRS.
Until then I will sit out and focus on other hobbies, like my gardening skills could use some improving.
Junk is at last tier 2 now. With BBE it would become close to non-existent. the same with Rock, that was also near to non-existent when BBE was around.
Don't count me on those people, look every comment i ever made about GBx and you will see that i supported BBE ban over DRS from the start because it created variations of the GBx shell. Notice even that i almost never say "Jund" when refering to the GBx shell as a whole.
exactly that is my point, we will have to wait at last until the fall set to have a solid base to say if it's safe or not to have BBE out. Although if GBx is well represented on this event, this might be a good sign that the ban was not so harmful to push gbx out.
I apologize if you were offended, it wasn't directed at you and more my random musings.
I'm a little biased in wanting Bloodbraid Elf unbanned, but with creatures being the thing now in MtG and I can see BGx being
fine with something new. We'll have a good idea of the full meta in the early summer.
EDIT: I should add that that my friend's deck was still good against Jund even when BBE and Deathrite were still in the format so BBE didn't automatically shut it down.
Currently Playing and/or Building:
Legacy:
BUG Shardless BUG BUG
BUG Team America BUG
UBRG Cabal ANT UBRG
This might sound a bit naive or pessimistic, but doesn't this apply to everything immediately following a change in the list? Zoo is a major threat(maybe). GBx is dead(probably not). GY strats are stronger(marginally). The point is, EVERYTHING has changed. Discussing any potential future changes without fully realizing the lasting effects from this most recent update is equally pointless. But yet we're here, we're talking. Might as well talk about everything.
But to throw my 2 cents at BBE, I always liked that card. And was physically dumbfounded when it was banned. It is not overpowered or degenerative in any way. Just felt like Wizards wanted to take something away from Jund, but didn't want to ban such a recently printed card(DRS), even though it was the one that was actually the problem.
Without DRS, why would you play an inferior mostly WG Junk deck when you could play Hatebears?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Maybe he wants to genocide some creature decks or something?
-Anonymous
I'm not demanding a ban. I'm demanding unbans.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
don't know much about. Releasing a card into such a format without serious forethought could lead to unexpected and unintended consequences.
On to the subject, Bloodbraid Elf might be premature at this point since we don't know how big a hit Jund has taken metagame share wise. It would have to be really significant for WotC to consider bringing this card back. Fast mana (talking about Chrome Mox, Rite of Flame, Seething Song, Cloudpost and, to a point, artifact lands), as a rule, shouldn't be taken into consideration lightly especially if you plan on sticking with the "Turn 4" rule of Modern. Then there are those no-go zones like Skullclamp or Hypergenesis which no one in their right mind considers to be safe for the format
The only card that looks undeniably safe to unban is Golgari Grave-Troll, though it may take quite some time before WotC, and the community itself, gets over it's heavy bias against Dredge and acknowledges that the card just isn't as bonkers as The Fear made it out to be.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.