Glimpse is a (very) safe ban.
I don't know if fae would become too good with BB, but right now I see it lower than zoo's power level.
(Also, he's a blood bender! No more Korra until next year tho T.T)
Yeah you're probably right. UW Midrangel would still be a stronger deck than Fae with blossom.
I remember that the overextended version of elfball had glimpse legal and it was quite strong, but maybe if its too good they could always hit something else instead.
. As for force of will, I think it would just make blue better and who wants that? Mindbreak Trap was their answer to a free counterspell that any deck can use against combo, but its only good vs storm.
[QUOTE=Hinotama;8585454
The rest should be tested, but fae is already a decent modern deck. Why make it so much better?[/QUOTE]
The Faeries deck performed well for a couple of weeks because there were an lot of strong players running the deck, and it was new. People quickly figured out how to beat it, and it doesn't do well at all anymore.
In my opinion if Wotc lets Modern creep up toward the power level of Legacy, thats bad for Legacy and could mean Wotc is looking to kill off Legacy all together, which may have been their plan all along.
But I disagree about bannings being bad for the format. If Wotc is trying to keep the power level somewhere between Standard and Legacy, in reality bannings is the only way to do it.
Reread my statement, I say specifically aggressive bannings not just banning in general. Bannings are just part of the reality of magic, sometimes things slip through the cracks because generally thousands of players of magic are more likely to find issues than say maybe a dozen play testers at Wizards. However to maintain the power level at a 5 on your scale, Wizards would have to be extremely proactive about it and the easiest way to do that is to aggressively ban cards to keep the power level down. The reality is that the power level of the format is only going to increase due to a larger card pool and power creep so to keep the power level down they would have to ban huge amounts of cards in the future and that is very unhealthy and would likely lead to the death of the format.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Reread my statement, I say specifically aggressive bannings not just banning in general. Bannings are just part of the reality of magic, sometimes things slip through the cracks because generally thousands of players of magic are more likely to find issues than say maybe a dozen play testers at Wizards. However to maintain the power level at a 5 on your scale, Wizards would have to be extremely proactive about it and the easiest way to do that is to aggressively ban cards to keep the power level down. The reality is that the power level of the format is only going to increase due to a larger card pool and power creep so to keep the power level down they would have to ban huge amounts of cards in the future and that is very unhealthy and would likely lead to the death of the format.
I really dont think they will have to hit too many cards with ban hammer since they already hit most the major players that can degenerate the format. The problem is, are they grooming Modern to take over Legacy? or do they really want to keep it as a tweener format? No sense on us arguing power level if they are expecting Modern to take the Legacy spot.
Well my point is that some cards that are unbanned are stronger than those that are banned, and I do not understand this at all.
Jace is too slow for modern, and would only see play in control decks which do not really exist right now. Same with visions.
This is one of my biggest issues with the banned list as well. I don't think the solution is to ban more and unban some, I think they should just unban the cards that obviously don't need to be there, and then see what happens, and make bannings after, if needed. Though I do think it's outrageous that a deck like Jund can play Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Bloodbraid Elf, and Liliana of the Veil, and control decks can't even play Ancestral Vision.
This is one of my biggest issues with the banned list as well. I don't think the solution is to ban more and unban some, I think they should just unban the cards that obviously don't need to be there, and then see what happens, and make bannings after, if needed. Though I do think it's outrageous that a deck like Jund can play Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Bloodbraid Elf, and Liliana of the Veil, and control decks can't even play Ancestral Vision.
Again it depends on what Wotc plans for Modern is. If they are trying to keep a moderate power level between Standard and Legacy, theres is a good possibility they feel unbanning some cards could raise the power level too close to Legacys.
Personally I would say if they dont unban anything the next 6 months or so, they are looking at keeping Modern a tweener format between Standard and Legacy.
Uxx Tempo is currently the strongest archtype. Uxx Control was never the strongest archtype (not to mention dominating the format) and nevertheless they banned Stoneforge Mystic, AV and Jace 2.0.
Edit:
This also seams unfair too me.
I'd say Uxx Tempo, Melira and Jund all seem to by fighting over the title of "best Deck" in modern right now. Personally, I think they're all on the same level, because which of the 3 is currently the best changes weekly to the meta. You certainly can't say that Uxx Tempo decks are dominant, oppresive or even clearly the best.
When we asume that Standard Delver is 0 and UR Delver is 12 (and UR Delver isn't very strong at the moment), most of the Modern decks would be -x, because the Standard Delver list is so extremly strong. And even with T1.5 (non combo) decks I could stomp every Modern deck, because especially the U key cards aren't in the format (Fow, Daze, Brainstorm). On my scale the Modern format is around -5/+6 (would look worse when 12 would be RUG Delver), because the Modern Delver list is exact in the middle of the Standard and the Legacy UR version. And with the missing of the key cards, the banning of cards that make decks quicker than Affinity and the banning of cantrips, there is just no way that Modern decks can be closely as powerfull as the top Legacy decks.
I don't think that Uxx Tempo is opressive or dominant, but it's currently the best archtype. And it's the archtype that is most resilent to everything in the field, because hating it out is more difficult than every other T1 list, so I think it will only be a matter of time untill Uxx Tempo will be first place 6 months straight.
Its really not our measure that matters, its Wotc's thought on the matter.
The format is still a work in progress that is close to a year ahead of the last competitive format they created. I think thats pretty dam good.
What exactly do u guys mean by U/x/x tempo is the best deck?
Oh and btw, if Jace and Ancestral Visions get unbanned, the UW Control deck thats in my sig will go from Tier 1 to Tier 0. Jace in this deck would be really good.
Tier 1 ATM is Affinity, Birthing Pod, Jund and U/X/X Control/Tempo. The last one includes variants of Fae, UWR Tempo, RUG Tempo, UW MidrAngel, etc.
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Jace is too strong for our format. 4cc is too easy for blue to field in modern. He would be played in every blue deck. AV on the other hand is probably ok to allow back.
When Jace was legal, he was good, but not dominating or anything. That is my reasoning for saying that he wouldn't be stupid good were he unbanned. If someone disagrees, what reasoning do you have, other than control is slightly better now that it once was?
I'm not saying he should be unbanned though; I realize he would most likely make the format less fun.
JTMS is iffy, I want him unbanned though. What I really want is mental misstep unbanned. This format is not nearly reliant on one drops as is legacy. I need to find a use for my foil playset:)
If wizards intends to keep modern more affordable jace should stay on the ban list. Jace is and always will be a pricey card. I can't say that as a card it would break the format or not, though. To be honest, I think it could go either way. Fate stealing isn't all that broken when no one has access to decent digging anyway (with ponder and preordain gone), brainstorming on turn 4 isn't that useful to combo decks (because they'll likely already have set up a win by that turn anyway), and without decent counterspells he's hard to protect from attacking creatures and direct hate. But in legacy he is still undoubtedly powerful, I'm not sure if modern would be able juggle JTMS in the format.
As for AV, I like it, but I think in a combo or storm deck it could be way too good. I dunno though, I've never played a deck with AV in it.
If wizards intends to keep modern more affordable jace should stay on the ban list. Jace is and always will be a pricey card. I can't say that as a card it would break the format or not, though. To be honest, I think it could go either way. Fate stealing isn't all that broken when no one has access to decent digging anyway (with ponder and preordain gone), brainstorming on turn 4 isn't that useful to combo decks (because they'll likely already have set up a win by that turn anyway), and without decent counterspells he's hard to protect from attacking creatures and direct hate. But in legacy he is still undoubtedly powerful, I'm not sure if modern would be able juggle JTMS in the format.
JTMS is iffy, I want him unbanned though. What I really want is mental misstep unbanned. This format is not nearly reliant on one drops as is legacy. I need to find a use for my foil playset:)
Agreed; MM is fine to come off the banned list. Modern is much more like standard than legacy when talking about MM. Heck, even when MM was legal in modern nobody was using it. It's not banworthy at all. Not only are the 1cc spells worse in modern, but you don't have brainstorm / jace tms / force of will to get rid of MM when you don't want it.
Agreed; MM is fine to come off the banned list. Modern is much more like standard than legacy when talking about MM. Heck, even when MM was legal in modern nobody was using it. It's not banworthy at all. Not only are the 1cc spells worse in modern, but you don't have brainstorm / jace tms / force of will to get rid of MM when you don't want it.
I'm not so sure saying it didn't really see much play before it was banned is really a valid point because it got banned before it even became an official format and before the first real tournament so its really hard to say. Also this is before Snapcaster was printed, who is ridiculous with MM. I just don't see MM coming off the banned list anytime soon since the memories of what it did to Legacy are pretty fresh. And I seriously doubt that it wouldn't get rebanned down the line when Modern's power level grows and there are more powerful 1 drops much like legacy today.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
Snapcaster Mage is better than JTMS. I say this in full honesty. SCM is just better in so many situations in your hand than Jace ever is. Yet it's modern legal.
This does not make sense to me at all.
However - Jace, SCM, Delver and AV would most likely be extremely oppressive. It can't all be legal at the same time without more unbannings to help even that out. And that won't happen.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Snapcaster Mage is better than JTMS. I say this in full honesty. SCM is just better in so many situations in your hand than Jace ever is. Yet it's modern legal.
This does not make sense to me at all.
However - Jace, SCM, Delver and AV would most likely be extremely oppressive. It can't all be legal at the same time without more unbannings to help even that out. And that won't happen.
Yes. Either they ban Snapcaster and all the other cards that are better than Jace, or they unban Jace and AV for consistency sake. Unless, of course, that they are admitting that Jace is banned solely for price alone. In that case, Goyf would have to be banned for the consistency of that logic.
What deck would rather tap out on their turn for an unsummon, brainstorm, or fateseal rather than keep their mana open on their opponent's turn for Snappy and then do something in response to whatever the opponent does?
No more discussion on card X being "better" than card Y. Those statements are not only silly, but there isn't much way to prove them. Cards like snapcaster and Jace are used for very different purposes.
Also, Infallible, I can't really see a deck using both delver, Jace, and AV. That seems like you are trying to mix control with tempo, which really doesn't work.
I'm in favor of unbanning jace and AV. They would both give control a much needed boost. As for people arguing he should stay banned because of price then should bob and goyf be banned too? Of course not, banning isn't the right way to keep a format affordable, reprinting is.
As for people arguing he should stay banned because of price then should bob and goyf be banned too? Of course not, banninig isn't the right way to keep a format affordable, reprinting is.
I think their point was that even if he was unbanned, WotC wouldn't reprint him; at least not in something large like an actual set. JTMS will never see the light of standard again.
Could bob and goyf be reprinted without hurting standard? I think bob could, not so sure about goyf. But that's a discussion for another thread.
Anyways, I definitely agree that AV could get unbanned. Anyone who says otherwise, IMO, is just silly. It never had any business on the banlist, ever. As for Jace; I have mix feelings on whether he should be unbanned, but as personal opinion I wish he were unbanned, as I own a playset...
I think their point was that even if he was unbanned, WotC wouldn't reprint him; at least not in something large like an actual set. JTMS will never see the light of standard again.
Could bob and goyf be reprinted without hurting standard? I think bob could, not so sure about goyf. But that's a discussion for another thread.
Anyways, I definitely agree that AV could get unbanned. Anyone who says otherwise, IMO, is just silly. It never had any business on the banlist, ever. As for Jace; I have mix feelings on whether he should be unbanned, but as personal opinion I wish he were unbanned, as I own a playset...
Goyf was in standard once and was perfectly fine.
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Modern (I collect the format):
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron WDeath and Taxes WSoul Sisters RWG Pod Combo URSplinter Twin URStorm RBurn
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Yeah you're probably right. UW Midrangel would still be a stronger deck than Fae with blossom.
I remember that the overextended version of elfball had glimpse legal and it was quite strong, but maybe if its too good they could always hit something else instead.
. As for force of will, I think it would just make blue better and who wants that? Mindbreak Trap was their answer to a free counterspell that any deck can use against combo, but its only good vs storm.
The rest should be tested, but fae is already a decent modern deck. Why make it so much better?[/QUOTE]
The Faeries deck performed well for a couple of weeks because there were an lot of strong players running the deck, and it was new. People quickly figured out how to beat it, and it doesn't do well at all anymore.
Reread my statement, I say specifically aggressive bannings not just banning in general. Bannings are just part of the reality of magic, sometimes things slip through the cracks because generally thousands of players of magic are more likely to find issues than say maybe a dozen play testers at Wizards. However to maintain the power level at a 5 on your scale, Wizards would have to be extremely proactive about it and the easiest way to do that is to aggressively ban cards to keep the power level down. The reality is that the power level of the format is only going to increase due to a larger card pool and power creep so to keep the power level down they would have to ban huge amounts of cards in the future and that is very unhealthy and would likely lead to the death of the format.
I really dont think they will have to hit too many cards with ban hammer since they already hit most the major players that can degenerate the format. The problem is, are they grooming Modern to take over Legacy? or do they really want to keep it as a tweener format? No sense on us arguing power level if they are expecting Modern to take the Legacy spot.
Why? Jace and Visions are control cards, an undersupported archetype, while Snappy helps out the tempo decks too much. Who agrees?
Tempo isn't dominating or oppressing the format in any way, so I can't comprehend at all how they're helping "too much"
Jace is too slow for modern, and would only see play in control decks which do not really exist right now. Same with visions.
This is one of my biggest issues with the banned list as well. I don't think the solution is to ban more and unban some, I think they should just unban the cards that obviously don't need to be there, and then see what happens, and make bannings after, if needed. Though I do think it's outrageous that a deck like Jund can play Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Bloodbraid Elf, and Liliana of the Veil, and control decks can't even play Ancestral Vision.
Again it depends on what Wotc plans for Modern is. If they are trying to keep a moderate power level between Standard and Legacy, theres is a good possibility they feel unbanning some cards could raise the power level too close to Legacys.
Personally I would say if they dont unban anything the next 6 months or so, they are looking at keeping Modern a tweener format between Standard and Legacy.
I'd say Uxx Tempo, Melira and Jund all seem to by fighting over the title of "best Deck" in modern right now. Personally, I think they're all on the same level, because which of the 3 is currently the best changes weekly to the meta. You certainly can't say that Uxx Tempo decks are dominant, oppresive or even clearly the best.
Its really not our measure that matters, its Wotc's thought on the matter.
The format is still a work in progress that is close to a year ahead of the last competitive format they created. I think thats pretty dam good.
Oh and btw, if Jace and Ancestral Visions get unbanned, the UW Control deck thats in my sig will go from Tier 1 to Tier 0. Jace in this deck would be really good.
Tier 1 ATM is Affinity, Birthing Pod, Jund and U/X/X Control/Tempo. The last one includes variants of Fae, UWR Tempo, RUG Tempo, UW MidrAngel, etc.
Potentially offensive text removed, infraction issued.
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Thanks Hero's of the Plane
Modern
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xRxAffinityxRx
When Jace was legal, he was good, but not dominating or anything. That is my reasoning for saying that he wouldn't be stupid good were he unbanned. If someone disagrees, what reasoning do you have, other than control is slightly better now that it once was?
I'm not saying he should be unbanned though; I realize he would most likely make the format less fun.
As for AV, I like it, but I think in a combo or storm deck it could be way too good. I dunno though, I've never played a deck with AV in it.
Modern Junk Primer
Legacy ANT Primer
L1 Judge
Good point.
Agreed; MM is fine to come off the banned list. Modern is much more like standard than legacy when talking about MM. Heck, even when MM was legal in modern nobody was using it. It's not banworthy at all. Not only are the 1cc spells worse in modern, but you don't have brainstorm / jace tms / force of will to get rid of MM when you don't want it.
I'm not so sure saying it didn't really see much play before it was banned is really a valid point because it got banned before it even became an official format and before the first real tournament so its really hard to say. Also this is before Snapcaster was printed, who is ridiculous with MM. I just don't see MM coming off the banned list anytime soon since the memories of what it did to Legacy are pretty fresh. And I seriously doubt that it wouldn't get rebanned down the line when Modern's power level grows and there are more powerful 1 drops much like legacy today.
This does not make sense to me at all.
However - Jace, SCM, Delver and AV would most likely be extremely oppressive. It can't all be legal at the same time without more unbannings to help even that out. And that won't happen.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Yes. Either they ban Snapcaster and all the other cards that are better than Jace, or they unban Jace and AV for consistency sake. Unless, of course, that they are admitting that Jace is banned solely for price alone. In that case, Goyf would have to be banned for the consistency of that logic.
What deck would rather tap out on their turn for an unsummon, brainstorm, or fateseal rather than keep their mana open on their opponent's turn for Snappy and then do something in response to whatever the opponent does?
Also, Infallible, I can't really see a deck using both delver, Jace, and AV. That seems like you are trying to mix control with tempo, which really doesn't work.
none
Modern
UBG B/U/G control
BBB MBC
WUR Control
WWW Prison
RRR Goblins
Legacy
BBB Pox
UBG B/U/G Control
UWU StoneBlade
UW Miracle Control
I think their point was that even if he was unbanned, WotC wouldn't reprint him; at least not in something large like an actual set. JTMS will never see the light of standard again.
Could bob and goyf be reprinted without hurting standard? I think bob could, not so sure about goyf. But that's a discussion for another thread.
Anyways, I definitely agree that AV could get unbanned. Anyone who says otherwise, IMO, is just silly. It never had any business on the banlist, ever. As for Jace; I have mix feelings on whether he should be unbanned, but as personal opinion I wish he were unbanned, as I own a playset...
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn