Big Update for this most recent announcement:
Bloodbraid Elf and Seething Song are banned.
Banned List Discussion outside of this thread is Prohibited and will be Infracted!
To summarize Wizards' position, they feel they have banned cards that give decks the ability to either win or be in a controlling position by turn 3.
These cards fall in that list:
Ancient Den
Blazing Shoal
Chrome Mox
Dark Depths
Dread Return
Glimpse of Nature
Golgari Grave-Troll
Great Furnace
Hypergenesis
Seat of the Synod
Sword of the Meek
Tree of Tales
Vault of Whispers
The other main category of cards exist because they make decks too consistant/reliable and thus hamper the deck diversity of the metagame. I think these cards are the best candidates for an unbanning.
Ancestral Vision
Bitterblossom
Cloudpost
Green Sun's Zenith
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Mental Misstep
Ponder
Preordain
Punishing Fire
Rite of Flame
Stoneforge Mystic
Umezawa's Jitte
Then there are cards which wizards currently feels were mistakes or were never really tested in eternal formats.
Skullclamp
Sensei's Divining Top
I realize Jace/Stoneforge could possibly be here depending on your point of view.
I have extracted many on topic posts from the last 48 hours of ban list discussion and re-posted them here to reboot this thread.
This is your final warning. The following are PROHIBITED:
- personal attacks including questioning anyone's comprehension or competence. Any post with the word "you" in it is suspect.
- Legacy Discussion. If you want to discuss Legacy the forum below is where you want to be.
- Comparisons of Modern to Standard
- Sarcasm
- Flippant remarks regarding cards or decks being banned or no longer good.
- Pissing on Modern in general or claiming it's death.
- Discussions about what a control deck is, what a midrange deck is, or what an aggro deck is.
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This is a Discussion thread not a bar or a three ring circus. Please support your arguments.
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
I knew BBE was going to banned but am very surprised to see Seething Song get the axe. Maybe there is some powerful storm card coming out in a future set? I just don't know, I don't think Storm was really all that good in Modern. It was viable but far from dominant.
Seething Song is a weird one, as it's not like the deck is dominant, or as if complaints are rolling in about T3 losses to Storm - it's pretty rare, and the deck has a hard time dealing with GY hate or counter-spells. BBE is a fine ban in my opinion. Anyone who thinks Jund isn't too large a percentage of the meta is crazy, and BBE is clearly the best card in the deck. Deathrite Shaman is close, but I guess for format diversity sake they won't touch it for a while. Interesting news overall.
Anyone without sparkles in their eyes saw BBE getting banned. Jund will still be a top deck n the format, just not THE top deck
Seething Song though, I don't think a single person mentioned that card in an of the hundreds of posts speculating on the ban list. Really out of left field.
My guess would be that something in dragon's maze puts storm over the top. Their explanations were fairly odd.
If that were the case, they would wait until the next announcement, which will be right after the Dragon's Maze prerelease.
I did suspect storm would get hit, since it can kill turn 3 often enough (despite not being too good overall), but I had expected Electromancer instead, as it really isn't seen elsewhere and is IMO the card which has really caused the recent increase in the deck's speed.
I honestly can't believe they banned Seething Song. Sure, Storm is powerful, but it's NOT the deck that's dominating things. They really just don't want a deck that can consistently win before turn 4, and it can as long as it sees no hate. Of course, it sees hate from every which way, but honestly, that was enough to keep it at bay. Storm is most certainly a top tier deck, but its capability of winning early is definitely legitimate. The one thing I will say though, is that banning Seething Song will make the deck unplayable.
BBE was one of the cards I suspected might get banned. While I don't think it is what needed to be banned, hurting Jund is okay for me. I thought they'd sooner ban Bob, but whatever.
Excited that jund got taken down a few pegs. Never have seen storm played so not sure why this ban was necessary. Turn 3 kills in modern sound pretty bad, but I've never seen it happen.
Blood Braid I understand, Ive actually expected it banned last time the list updated
But Song? Really? Storm was a pretty fair deck. It fizzeled often enough that it wasnt broken and its fairly easy to sideboard against (bring in more discard and grave hate.) R&D must really have a grudge against storm. I am interested to see how this will affect the next major modern event. I think perhaps Rock will be the next big midrange deck as what they lacked versus Jund was BBE
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I really think these bannings will be good down the road.
BBE hates out any control deck that is trying to one for one you to death. Counterspells are suddenly better.
Storm makes playing an aggro deck a bad idea. If you can't race them you lose, and even a Nacatl doesn't kill by turn 3, so the only aggro deck that was viable was affinity. I know a lot of times I have looked at a decklist and thought that there was no way this deck could beat storm. So the long term effects of this will be very beneficial. It will make newer players happy about the format.
I was a member of the unban crowd. I wanted Jace, Bitterblossom, and Ancestral off the BL. Now I don't think they will ever come off, but it suddenly doesn't bother me. The format will be much more interactive now. It will be weird to see what happens this weekend.
Excited that jund got taken down a few pegs. Never have seen storm played so not sure why this ban was necessary. Turn 3 kills in modern sound pretty bad, but I've never seen it happen.
Here's what I don't get, if they were concerned about T3 wins, why didn't they ban Glistner Elf? Forget T3, I've seen more than a few T2 wins come from UG Infect. T1 Elf, T2 Krosa, Groundswell, Mutagenic Growth, with Pact of Negation backup, I win.
Heck, in the Tron vs Infect video SCG put up Infect had a T3 win, right?
Turning guys sideways? U/x control will probably become the top deck in the format now that Jund is going to come down to sane power levels. I don't see too many people crying over the grave of Storm, it's a non interactive combo deck. The less of those the better IMHO. I have no desire to sit at a table and watch a guy play MTG by himself
Possibly, but I wish they would get rid of Sunrise over Storm. Storm ends games quicker than Second Sunrise will. I wanted to tear out eyeballs when I watched the protour with Cifka.
Here's what I don't get, if they were concerned about T3 wins, why didn't they ban Glistner Elf? Forget T3, I've seen more than a few T2 wins come from UG Infect. T1 Elf, T2 Krosa, Groundswell, Mutagenic Growth, with Pact of Negation backup, I win.
Heck, in the Tron vs Infect video SCG put up Infect had a T3 win, right?
Data.
It's not whether T3 wins are possible with a god hand. Rather, it's a question of whether they occur often enough, as well as whether the deck gets played enough for them to care.
They have much more detailed data on this than we do, as they can look at MTGO and determine the exact percentage of the time a deck wins on T3.
With BBE gone, so many other midrange strategies that couldn't break through because they didn't have a BBE of their own (e.g. Doran) are so much better now.
I guess I'm in the minority of people who think the format looks much better now.
Hey, at least we won't have to watch 43 Jund mirrors a day!
BBE is a great ban, it doesn't kill the deck but will hopefully open up the format a bit more. Seething Song seems arbitrary, I think they should reconsider their policy on the number of turns thing unless a deck is clearly dominating.
I'm mainly just disappointed we didn't see any unbans, I would love to see what Ancestral Vision or Bitterblossom would do for the format.
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Legacy W Death and Taxes W U Merfolk U GWR Enchantress GWR WUG BantWUG
One thing that I think factors in: Wizards wants modern to grow and expand, especially with modern masters coming out. With the whole modern FNM's thing, Wizards was probably looking to ban storm to give the format a more appealing image to players new to the format. While anyone who actually plays knows that storm isn't overly powerful, it is probably not the deck that they wanted new players associating with the format (It is a fairly budget deck and would be more prevalent at the FNM level imo).
It's not whether T3 wins are possible with a god hand. Rather, it's a question of whether they occur often enough, as well as whether the deck gets played enough for them to care.
They have much more detailed data on this than we do, as they can look at MTGO and determine the exact percentage of the time a deck wins on T3.
I just asked Aaron Forsythe on Twitter why Infect and Pod decks aren't subject to the "no kills before turn 3" rule, and he basically said that just because a deck can goldfish a turn 3 win doesn't mean it's always going to win on turn 3 with some sort of consistency.
BBE I can understand, but Seething Song? Really? Trying to leave personal bias behind because I just bought the UR storm deck core which was money out of my pocket only to have it now banned. This is a ridiculous format to play at the moment the fact that it's so young wizards isn't even sure whats good and bad for it, they're experimentally banning stuff. Now i'm stuck with the cards for a deck that is definitely not going to exist anymore. This format is wack.
Seething Song is a very, very odd choice. It's by no means the most powerful card in Storm, nor is that deck dominating the format... maybe they're just tired of complaints about it and wanted to thin out players of it? If so, that's a very odd way to work the banned list.
BBE makes sense, though it doubt it just makes Jund go away. It's a deck based on easy value; they will find other ways to capitalize and stay competitive. Deathrite Shaman is still degenerate, and not having to worry about cards being a bad cascade anymore just means Jund gets to lower its curve.
Big Update for this most recent announcement:
Bloodbraid Elf and Seething Song are banned.
Banned List Discussion outside of this thread is Prohibited and will be Infracted!
To summarize Wizards' position, they feel they have banned cards that give decks the ability to either win or be in a controlling position by turn 3.
These cards fall in that list:
Ancient Den
Blazing Shoal
Chrome Mox
Dark Depths
Dread Return
Glimpse of Nature
Golgari Grave-Troll
Great Furnace
Hypergenesis
Seat of the Synod
Sword of the Meek
Tree of Tales
Vault of Whispers
The other main category of cards exist because they make decks too consistant/reliable and thus hamper the deck diversity of the metagame. I think these cards are the best candidates for an unbanning.
Ancestral Vision
Bitterblossom
Cloudpost
Green Sun's Zenith
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Mental Misstep
Ponder
Preordain
Punishing Fire
Rite of Flame
Stoneforge Mystic
Umezawa's Jitte
Then there are cards which wizards currently feels were mistakes or were never really tested in eternal formats.
Skullclamp
Sensei's Divining Top
I realize Jace/Stoneforge could possibly be here depending on your point of view.
The following are links to WotC's in-depth explanations as to why cards have gotten banned since the beginning of the format:
Community Cup Announcement with the Initial Ban List.
1st Banned List change with explanations
2nd Banned List change with explanations
3rd Banned List change with explanations
Removal of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Addition of Bloodbraid Elf and Seething Song
Old threads: 9/20/12 and 6/20/12
Please keep discussion related to the cards and leave personal attacks at home. Thanks!
This is your final warning. The following are PROHIBITED:
- personal attacks including questioning anyone's comprehension or competence. Any post with the word "you" in it is suspect.
- Legacy Discussion. If you want to discuss Legacy the forum below is where you want to be.
- Comparisons of Modern to Standard
- Sarcasm
- Flippant remarks regarding cards or decks being banned or no longer good.
- Pissing on Modern in general or claiming it's death.
- Discussions about what a control deck is, what a midrange deck is, or what an aggro deck is.
- Anything Else that is a violation of the forum rules or the modern forum rules
This is a Discussion thread not a bar or a three ring circus. Please support your arguments.
Seething Song enabled turn 3 wins for storm decks, as was said in the article.
EDH:
RNorin the WaryR <-Link! (Primer - Mono Red Control)
GUEdric, Spymaster of TrestUG <- Link! (Mini-Primer - Dredge)
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WUGeist of Saint TraftUW <- Link! (Aggro-Control)
BGSkullbriar, the Walking GraveGB <- Link! (Aggro)
BUGDamia, Sage of StoneGUB <- Link! (Extinction Control)
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Seething Song though, I don't think a single person mentioned that card in an of the hundreds of posts speculating on the ban list. Really out of left field.
;___;
Goodnight, sweet Bitterblossom.
I'm selling off my modern staples for legacy things tomorrow.
I already know what I look like. That's why I'm there.
If that were the case, they would wait until the next announcement, which will be right after the Dragon's Maze prerelease.
I did suspect storm would get hit, since it can kill turn 3 often enough (despite not being too good overall), but I had expected Electromancer instead, as it really isn't seen elsewhere and is IMO the card which has really caused the recent increase in the deck's speed.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
BBE was one of the cards I suspected might get banned. While I don't think it is what needed to be banned, hurting Jund is okay for me. I thought they'd sooner ban Bob, but whatever.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
But Song? Really? Storm was a pretty fair deck. It fizzeled often enough that it wasnt broken and its fairly easy to sideboard against (bring in more discard and grave hate.) R&D must really have a grudge against storm. I am interested to see how this will affect the next major modern event. I think perhaps Rock will be the next big midrange deck as what they lacked versus Jund was BBE
-Anonymous
BBE hates out any control deck that is trying to one for one you to death. Counterspells are suddenly better.
Storm makes playing an aggro deck a bad idea. If you can't race them you lose, and even a Nacatl doesn't kill by turn 3, so the only aggro deck that was viable was affinity. I know a lot of times I have looked at a decklist and thought that there was no way this deck could beat storm. So the long term effects of this will be very beneficial. It will make newer players happy about the format.
I was a member of the unban crowd. I wanted Jace, Bitterblossom, and Ancestral off the BL. Now I don't think they will ever come off, but it suddenly doesn't bother me. The format will be much more interactive now. It will be weird to see what happens this weekend.
Level 1 Judge
WUBRG
Here's what I don't get, if they were concerned about T3 wins, why didn't they ban Glistner Elf? Forget T3, I've seen more than a few T2 wins come from UG Infect. T1 Elf, T2 Krosa, Groundswell, Mutagenic Growth, with Pact of Negation backup, I win.
Heck, in the Tron vs Infect video SCG put up Infect had a T3 win, right?
Also surprised that nothing got unbanned.
Possibly, but I wish they would get rid of Sunrise over Storm. Storm ends games quicker than Second Sunrise will. I wanted to tear out eyeballs when I watched the protour with Cifka.
Data.
It's not whether T3 wins are possible with a god hand. Rather, it's a question of whether they occur often enough, as well as whether the deck gets played enough for them to care.
They have much more detailed data on this than we do, as they can look at MTGO and determine the exact percentage of the time a deck wins on T3.
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
I play(ed) Storm and it wins on turn 3 fairly often assuming you don't get disrupted by hate.
I guess I'm in the minority of people who think the format looks much better now.
Hey, at least we won't have to watch 43 Jund mirrors a day!
I'm mainly just disappointed we didn't see any unbans, I would love to see what Ancestral Vision or Bitterblossom would do for the format.
W Death and Taxes W
U Merfolk U
GWR Enchantress GWR
WUG BantWUG
I just asked Aaron Forsythe on Twitter why Infect and Pod decks aren't subject to the "no kills before turn 3" rule, and he basically said that just because a deck can goldfish a turn 3 win doesn't mean it's always going to win on turn 3 with some sort of consistency.
So it looks like this was the case.
BBE makes sense, though it doubt it just makes Jund go away. It's a deck based on easy value; they will find other ways to capitalize and stay competitive. Deathrite Shaman is still degenerate, and not having to worry about cards being a bad cascade anymore just means Jund gets to lower its curve.
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