i think you're overreacting. kind of like how you say a group of us overreact when we say ban emrakul :p. its for the same reason of inevitability that some decks straight up can't handle.
i agree they could have unbanned something else that isn't combo, since the meta already has a ton of it, but (having never played against it,) it seems relatively slow. but with cavern protecting prime time dropping, i can see problems with it..
my biggest beef is that people overlook that Caw shat on valakut, so it stopped being oppressive. but if you look at the last 4 oppressive decks standard has seen, not counting delver, they are caw, valakut, jund, fae. the two non-blue decks are at full strength, while the other two are shadows (or non-existant). hardly fair.
12 of Caw-Blades main 60 are banned in Modern. What it did in Standard is irrelevant - it cannot exist in Modern, so saying it shut down Valakut is neither here nor there.
Midrange decks like Jund and Fae will have problems with Valakut, especially with Caverns existence for blue players. Valakut also shuts down Pod and tightens the clock on all aggro decks. Storm was easy to hate out, SplinterTwin is more easily disruptable. This is a 1-card combo. If Scape resolves, its pretty much GG.
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Modern RG RG Tron GR RUG RUG Twin RUG X Affinity X
I really don't have time to get into this. Each to their own I guess, if you guys want to make a non-Prismatc Omen build of Scapeshift combo, I wish you the best of luck.
Prismatic omen also makes valakut itself a mountain which is key
LOL I didn't even notice today was the day of the B&R list revision!!
I'm quite surprised they unbanned valakut. Maybe I'll play it.
But I'm sure this will give Modern loads of popularity since this is a card many standard players played not so long ago.
Anyone that wanted to play midrange got the shaft long before. The banning of SFM, GSZ, Jitte, BB and the cantrips made midrange with W so much inferior to Jund and the decks in the metagame. And let's face it: Jund won't get kicked out of the metagame, especially with the new Golgari tech.
A guy in my play group traded for the last few Goyfs he needed, a coupe Bobs, and such and now feels screwed over by the unbanning of Valukut. Jund has a terrible match up with Valukut so he is now not going to an event he was looking forward to going to. Even with the new tech, isnt not going to be enough.
Those saying Valukut is slow, have never played against it. It can regularly go off turn 4/5 and kill their opponent. Its faster then twin, and more resilient then tron or storm. Blows Melira out of the way. Pod is unplayable now. Jund is unplayable now. Fae is unplayable now. As long as Valukut is in the format.
I see Valukut being rebanned once the bigger events show how warping Valukut is.
A guy in my play group traded for the last few Goyfs he needed, a coupe Bobs, and such and now feels screwed over by the unbanning of Valukut. Jund has a terrible match up with Valukut so he is now not going to an event he was looking forward to going to. Even with the new tech, isnt not going to be enough.
Those saying Valukut is slow, have never played against it. It can regularly go off turn 4/5 and kill their opponent. Its faster then twin, and more resilient then tron or storm. Blows Melira out of the way. Pod is unplayable now. Jund is unplayable now. Fae is unplayable now. As long as Valukut is in the format.
I see Valukut being rebanned once the bigger events show how warping Valukut is.
Where are you basing these matchup percentages off? Jund should fare just as well agianst Valakut as they do vs. storm decks. The only slight difference is that they may need to play thoughtseize maindeck over inquisition, and they'll need to play land disruption in the board (which they already do anyway). If you keep scapeshift decks off 7 mana, they generally can't win. Prismatic omen just opens them up to enchantment removal too. If you're basing this off old standard or extended, keep in mind those decks weren't rocking 4x Tarmogoyf and 4x Dark Confidant in them, not to mention no Liliana of the Veil.
Valakut decks are not faster than twin, and are probably similarly resilient to tron and storm. Second, Faeries had a positive valakut matchup in 4 block extended as well as "old" extended. Tempo + counters have always been a big problem for valakut decks.
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I tend to agree that there is some overreaction going on, here.
I have played with and against Valakut in Standard and in Modern before bannings, and it's a really, really solid deck. Sure. And it will impact the meta. Yes. But it's not as bad as people think it is. It sure as heck isn't 12-post, and before that god banned, even it was hated out of the meta at its first major event.
I'm just glad there were changes. Anything that shakes up the format is fine for me at this point, though I would have liked to see Sword of the Meek or AV come off.
well to be fair, fae now vs fae of old extended are completely different decks. its missing the piece that legit makes it good.
i suppose martyr will have a good matchup against it. it out gains how much damage they can do. soul sisters may have a slightly harder time than the more controlish builds because they rely on enemy creatures entering as well to gain life. then again, my controlish build is geared towards creature match ups. anywho, leyline of sanctity ftw?
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
valakut wasn't unbeatable because caw had a ridiculously positive matchup against it. there is no "caw" in the format as it stands. current u/w caw and its variations, extending to restoration and other derivatives aren't anywhere near the power level of the original. valakut isn't equipped to out damage a turn 3 batterskull or the discard of a sofaf. unfortunately, (or fortunately), that deck doesn't exist in modern, which is why people are worried about it.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
valakut wasn't unbeatable because caw had a ridiculously positive matchup against it. there is no "caw" in the format as it stands. current u/w caw and its variations, extending to restoration and other derivatives aren't anywhere near the power level of the original. valakut isn't equipped to out damage a turn 3 batterskull or the discard of a sofaf. unfortunately, (or fortunately), that deck doesn't exist in modern, which is why people are worried about it.
That's also counting standard valakut vs. standard caw blade.
Caw was a great deck, but there are a lot of other challenges valakut faces in modern. First off, it has the problem of combo decks existing in the format. As of right now, storm, kiki twin, and naya pod are faster than Valakut is (all goldish turn 3-5 wins regularly). In 4-block extended, Valakut WAS the only combo deck that was even remotely playable then. There was no storm, and twin combo didn't have kiki or exarch for consistency purposes, and other combo strategies were also nerfed by the smaller format. Birthing pod had yet to do anything as well in that format since it came on after extended was dead.
Second, it also has to deal with other problems such as Blood Moon, turn 3-4 Karn exiling it's lands & hand, affinity swinging for a turn 3-4 kill, or burn just sending enough damage right to it's dome before it can win via combo, or a Delver of secrets hiding behind a hand full of remands and burn spells.
It's not to say that Valakut will be bad, I actually would guess it'll be a tier 1.5 deck at the worst, but it's still the slowest combo deck in the format, without as good of a plan b as a deck like naya pod has (just attacking with creatures that is). It's also almost a requirement for it to play blue to find the scapeshift, and also to protect itself from other combo decks.
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Forgive me my ignorance, but wasn't this largely due to the power of Mana Leak, and the speed of Exarch Twin? Mana Leak is far less prevalent in Modern and can actually be dodged with Cavern of Souls/Boseiju. On the other hand, fast combo will probably beat 'Kut quite consistently. Still, overall the format will probably speed up.
I'm not sure how good/bad Valakut was against control or Twin but it did horribly against RDW and Goblins. Having their own Primeval Titan used against them for at least 10 damage was always funny; even better when they had to activate Valakut early to kill off the Titan!
Where are you basing these matchup percentages off? Jund should fare just as well agianst Valakut as they do vs. storm decks. The only slight difference is that they may need to play thoughtseize maindeck over inquisition, and they'll need to play land disruption in the board (which they already do anyway). If you keep scapeshift decks off 7 mana, they generally can't win. Prismatic omen just opens them up to enchantment removal too. If you're basing this off old standard or extended, keep in mind those decks weren't rocking 4x Tarmogoyf and 4x Dark Confidant in them, not to mention no Liliana of the Veil.
Valakut decks are not faster than twin, and are probably similarly resilient to tron and storm. Second, Faeries had a positive valakut matchup in 4 block extended as well as "old" extended. Tempo + counters have always been a big problem for valakut decks.
I am basing it on old extended play. Valukut roflstomped Jund in old extended. Midrange has a terrible match up with Valukut. The format has went from multiple viable decks to play to a handful from this unbanning.
Valukut is more resilient then any pod deck, twin and storm. Its faster then any pod deck and twin. Its also faster and more resilient then tron. We already had multiple levels of combo, now they gave combo players a deck on steroids compared to the rest.
You might not believe me, thats fine. Time will tell. I am betting on it being rebanned come gatecrash because of how oppressive it will be early in the Modern season.
The most depressing part of which is if that comes to pass, its going to trash a good part of the PTQ season.
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I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
I am basing it on old extended play. Valukut roflstomped Jund in old extended. Midrange has a terrible match up with Valukut. The format has went from multiple viable decks to play to a handful from this unbanning.
Valukut is more resilient then any pod deck, twin and storm. Its faster then any pod deck and twin. Its also faster and more resilient then tron. We already had multiple levels of combo, now they gave combo players a deck on steroids compared to the rest.
You might not believe me, thats fine. Time will tell. I am betting on it being rebanned come gatecrash because of how oppressive it will be early in the Modern season.
Jund in old extended isn't even remotely similar to Jund in Modern.
Jund in old extended didn't play Dark Confidant, didn't play Tarmogoyf, didn't play Liliana of the Veil, Didn't play Abrupt Decay, and didn't have access to powerful anti-valakut hatebears like zo-zu the punisher.
Valakut isn't the death of midrange. It's the death of non-interactive creature decks without a sideboard plan. If anything, scapeshift will hopefully slow the format down a bit.
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Jund in old extended isn't even remotely similar to Jund in Modern.
Jund in old extended didn't play Dark Confidant, didn't play Tarmogoyf, didn't play Liliana of the Veil, Didn't play Abrupt Decay, and didn't have access to powerful anti-valakut hatebears like zo-zu the punisher.
Valakut isn't the death of midrange. It's the death of non-interactive creature decks without a sideboard plan. If anything, scapeshift will hopefully slow the format down a bit.
One of us is wrong. Time will tell who. I know many local players that were going to play in the qualifier in November are not going because of this. They feel Jund is crap against Valukut, and these are the guys who were able to test prior to the format being officially announced. One guy said he wouldnt be surprised to see 6 Valukut decks in the top 8 of the first large Modern tournament its legal in. Its that powerful.
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12 of Caw-Blades main 60 are banned in Modern. What it did in Standard is irrelevant - it cannot exist in Modern, so saying it shut down Valakut is neither here nor there.
Midrange decks like Jund and Fae will have problems with Valakut, especially with Caverns existence for blue players. Valakut also shuts down Pod and tightens the clock on all aggro decks. Storm was easy to hate out, SplinterTwin is more easily disruptable. This is a 1-card combo. If Scape resolves, its pretty much GG.
Modern
RG RG Tron GR
RUG RUG Twin RUG
X Affinity X
Edited - nevermind, was thinking of Omen, sorry.
Modern
RG RG Tron GR
RUG RUG Twin RUG
X Affinity X
and scapeshift is a sorcery.
Correct you are. Edited and amended.
Holy crap. Caverned Prime Time into Boseiju'd Scapeshift. UGH.
Modern
RG RG Tron GR
RUG RUG Twin RUG
X Affinity X
Also, is the Omen-Scapeshift approach better than the Ramp-Titan one here?
Prismatic omen also makes valakut itself a mountain which is key
-sorry for double post
I'm quite surprised they unbanned valakut. Maybe I'll play it.
But I'm sure this will give Modern loads of popularity since this is a card many standard players played not so long ago.
A guy in my play group traded for the last few Goyfs he needed, a coupe Bobs, and such and now feels screwed over by the unbanning of Valukut. Jund has a terrible match up with Valukut so he is now not going to an event he was looking forward to going to. Even with the new tech, isnt not going to be enough.
Those saying Valukut is slow, have never played against it. It can regularly go off turn 4/5 and kill their opponent. Its faster then twin, and more resilient then tron or storm. Blows Melira out of the way. Pod is unplayable now. Jund is unplayable now. Fae is unplayable now. As long as Valukut is in the format.
I see Valukut being rebanned once the bigger events show how warping Valukut is.
It is already posting 3-1 and 4-0 quite often on mtgo.
And if for some reason this deck becomes the most played in a tourney, then prepare to see more Burn and Storm as both destroy Valakut.
Where are you basing these matchup percentages off? Jund should fare just as well agianst Valakut as they do vs. storm decks. The only slight difference is that they may need to play thoughtseize maindeck over inquisition, and they'll need to play land disruption in the board (which they already do anyway). If you keep scapeshift decks off 7 mana, they generally can't win. Prismatic omen just opens them up to enchantment removal too. If you're basing this off old standard or extended, keep in mind those decks weren't rocking 4x Tarmogoyf and 4x Dark Confidant in them, not to mention no Liliana of the Veil.
Valakut decks are not faster than twin, and are probably similarly resilient to tron and storm. Second, Faeries had a positive valakut matchup in 4 block extended as well as "old" extended. Tempo + counters have always been a big problem for valakut decks.
I have played with and against Valakut in Standard and in Modern before bannings, and it's a really, really solid deck. Sure. And it will impact the meta. Yes. But it's not as bad as people think it is. It sure as heck isn't 12-post, and before that god banned, even it was hated out of the meta at its first major event.
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i suppose martyr will have a good matchup against it. it out gains how much damage they can do. soul sisters may have a slightly harder time than the more controlish builds because they rely on enemy creatures entering as well to gain life. then again, my controlish build is geared towards creature match ups. anywho, leyline of sanctity ftw?
That's also counting standard valakut vs. standard caw blade.
Caw was a great deck, but there are a lot of other challenges valakut faces in modern. First off, it has the problem of combo decks existing in the format. As of right now, storm, kiki twin, and naya pod are faster than Valakut is (all goldish turn 3-5 wins regularly). In 4-block extended, Valakut WAS the only combo deck that was even remotely playable then. There was no storm, and twin combo didn't have kiki or exarch for consistency purposes, and other combo strategies were also nerfed by the smaller format. Birthing pod had yet to do anything as well in that format since it came on after extended was dead.
Second, it also has to deal with other problems such as Blood Moon, turn 3-4 Karn exiling it's lands & hand, affinity swinging for a turn 3-4 kill, or burn just sending enough damage right to it's dome before it can win via combo, or a Delver of secrets hiding behind a hand full of remands and burn spells.
It's not to say that Valakut will be bad, I actually would guess it'll be a tier 1.5 deck at the worst, but it's still the slowest combo deck in the format, without as good of a plan b as a deck like naya pod has (just attacking with creatures that is). It's also almost a requirement for it to play blue to find the scapeshift, and also to protect itself from other combo decks.
I'm not sure how good/bad Valakut was against control or Twin but it did horribly against RDW and Goblins. Having their own Primeval Titan used against them for at least 10 damage was always funny; even better when they had to activate Valakut early to kill off the Titan!
-effective date is oct 1st got it
I am basing it on old extended play. Valukut roflstomped Jund in old extended. Midrange has a terrible match up with Valukut. The format has went from multiple viable decks to play to a handful from this unbanning.
Valukut is more resilient then any pod deck, twin and storm. Its faster then any pod deck and twin. Its also faster and more resilient then tron. We already had multiple levels of combo, now they gave combo players a deck on steroids compared to the rest.
You might not believe me, thats fine. Time will tell. I am betting on it being rebanned come gatecrash because of how oppressive it will be early in the Modern season.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
Jund in old extended isn't even remotely similar to Jund in Modern.
Jund in old extended didn't play Dark Confidant, didn't play Tarmogoyf, didn't play Liliana of the Veil, Didn't play Abrupt Decay, and didn't have access to powerful anti-valakut hatebears like zo-zu the punisher.
Valakut isn't the death of midrange. It's the death of non-interactive creature decks without a sideboard plan. If anything, scapeshift will hopefully slow the format down a bit.
One of us is wrong. Time will tell who. I know many local players that were going to play in the qualifier in November are not going because of this. They feel Jund is crap against Valukut, and these are the guys who were able to test prior to the format being officially announced. One guy said he wouldnt be surprised to see 6 Valukut decks in the top 8 of the first large Modern tournament its legal in. Its that powerful.