In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Get Liliana's Caress up ASAP, multiples if you have them, cast Wheel of Fate, then proceed to throw burn spells and discard spells at their face and creatures till they die or Wheel of Fate comes into play, and use the extra steam to finish the job.
As a combo player, plan A seems the most viable. Burn decks in my experience don't go very far, especially when your opponent is dropping lots of threats and you need to zap them, but then run out of burn for the face.
The two plans seem not to really compliment eachother... If you're getting Liliana's caress up, then you're not playing burn spells for Bloodchief. And if you play Bloodchief, then you pretty much have to use your burn spells or it's just going to sit there. If you play Bloodchief, then Caress, your opponent get's free turns to bash you/set up their combo.
I guess you could just aggressively mulligan until you get the cards you need for one of the plans, but then you're down on cards with no real way to build up card advantage unless you drop Bob, which delays you another turn.
I'm sure there has to be some way to make this deck more formidable in the first few turns. Jund does it. Why can't we? (Before you say it, the answer is not to add Tarmogoyfs...)
Also, I think we should start considering sideboard options.
If they throw down a Leyline of Sanctity, they've got us by the balls with the main deck. Enchantment removal is not in the Black/Red colour pie. Luckily artifact removal is. Liquimetal Coating turns their Leyline into an artifact that we can smack with Ancient Grudge.
Blood Moon on turn three hoses Tron's lands and also multicolour decks that use a lot of nonbasics like Jund.
Liquimetal Coating in conjuction with Ancient Grudge can also send a piece of Tron to the grave and we can Surgical Extraction it away. Surgical extraction is also good against combo decks.
Against decks that play off the graveyard, we can use Ravenous Trap to exile them before they can make use of it, Nihil Spellbomb does the same, but replaces itself for an extra B. Graveyard hate also significantly weakens Goyfs. Mindbreak Trap is similar but only really beats Storm when they cast Past in Flames.
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Build a man a fire, he'll be warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
There has never been a land that enters the battlefield untapped unconditionally and taps for two colors unconditionally. That would be strictly better than a basic land
Well while playing this your objective is to make your discard cards hurt.
If you simply use discard and burn as separated things the deck is ineffective.
And get your stacks on Ascension is the main objective of your burn spells. Real damage comes from the discard ones.
I pose a question: Is running Ascension really better than just running more disruption and sweepers? It seems to me that Lili + crazy discard + removal = win, and I wonder if you are really adding win by including all these crazy combo pieces.
This deck is a big burn deck in the disguise of a control deck. The idea is to stall out the game as long as possible, zapping their threats and plucking out their bombs with targeted discard. Then, when their options are exhausted, drop your chants and burn them dead.
It seems to work kind of well. If you start with a lot of targeted discard, you're probably in good shape unless you're against a deck like affinity that loves to drop its hand. If that's the case, you can side into your pyroclasms to kill their dudes, and ancient grudge to kill their big pieces like plating.
Green tron really gets a hurting when you discard their karns/fatties. If you can somehow hit their lands with discard (Inquiry/Blightning), you can Extract it and they can basically just scoop from there. Alternatively you can just play blood moon.
Jund falls to blood moon.
Storm gets your ravenous traps and spellbombs. Just hope you draw them before they combo.
Cards I haven't really found a big use for are wheel of fate and pain magnification. Magnification is awesome when you need that little bit of extra damage to finish off your enemy with a Blightning, but other than that it's kind of useless. You're bolting their threats, not their face.
Wheel of fate I am still willing to give a good shot, since it's possible to stall the game long enough to use it. I don't like that it gives control decks ample ammunition to simply counter all the stuff you throw at them the turn it activates though.
There has never been a land that enters the battlefield untapped unconditionally and taps for two colors unconditionally. That would be strictly better than a basic land
Have we tried using Rack-on-a-stick yet? I play a R/B Discard myself, and it IS modern legal, but I've not taken it to modern yet (The legality really was just a coincidence), and I run four of the muse.
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Currently Getting Back into the swing of MTGS. Bear with me folks~
Imo, wistfull thinking had to go in there for a blue splash. I am playing 4 wistfull thinking, 4 burning inquiry, and 4 blightning as the core discard/burn spells. Along with this, I am playing 5, turn 1 hand disruption (ie. thoughtsieze ect). I also play 4 megrim and 4 caress because blood chief was too slow and ofcoarse, 10 straight up burn spells.
Have we tried using Rack-on-a-stick yet? I play a R/B Discard myself, and it IS modern legal, but I've not taken it to modern yet (The legality really was just a coincidence), and I run four of the muse.
The problem with muse is the mana cost. You don't want to be locked down to one option a turn. The modern environment it's very unforgiving for this sort of thing. The earliest you can drop it is turn 4, and you cant play anything else. In most match ups, this is a critical turn. I wouldn't waste it on something that may or may not do any damage at all. It's a good card, but there are more important things we need to do with this deck.
Imo, wistfull thinking had to go in there for a blue splash. I am playing 4 wistfull thinking, 4 urning inquiry, and 4 blightning as the core discard/burn spells. Along with this, I am playing 5, turn 1 hand disruption (ie. thoughtsieze ect). I also play 4 megrim and 4 caress because blood chief was too slow and ofcoarse, 10 straight up burn spells.
Any comments, or opinons?
Wistful thinking is actually a really good card. Getting rid of 4 of their in hand cards is perfect to stop their plans. Unfortunately it costs three. If you've got any other ideas in grixis colours, maybe there's a way to fit this one in.
Not necessarily. If they get out a dude with 3 toughness, then pyroclasm isn't going to do much is it. The only reason not to play slagstorm is the mana cost. If you've tested it and it works for you then why not? In the end, testing is all that matters. If a card does well in the meta, then that's the card we'll use.
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Build a man a fire, he'll be warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
There has never been a land that enters the battlefield untapped unconditionally and taps for two colors unconditionally. That would be strictly better than a basic land
Seems like magma jet could be of use to you. When the opp is out of cards but has a threat on board the last thing you want to draw is more discard. Or lands for that matter.
Looking at the main list, I recommend increasing the number of Smallpox. It's discard, your main interest, and likely buys time (against combo, by killing a land, and against aggro by hitting a dude).
Further, serious considerations for Slagstorm should be done. It's fairly acceptable mainboard as either removal or a board wipe. Though Volcanic Fallout might be better, since it's uncounterable and instant speed.
Liliana of the Veil seems necessary. Repeat discard with the option to use as removal, with a strong ultimate, makes her worth considering.
As for the main reason to run a deck like this, properly built it avoids the main issue burn experiences, Leyline of Sanctity.
Last note, please double-check the cards in the main list and if you have a newer list edit it into the newer post to denote your keeping track of the thread.. Seems Bloodchief Ascension is misspelled, making it hard to reference.
I surprised there is not more discussion about quest for the nihil stone. One burning inquiry puts it online immediately. And with blightining and Pain magnification it's easy to get it to work.
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Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
I'm kind of torn with this deck. There seems to be two ways to play:
A. BloodCrank
Get Bloodchief Ascension online, cast Mindcrank, then cast any discard spell for the win, or
B. Burn
Get Liliana's Caress up ASAP, multiples if you have them, cast Wheel of Fate, then proceed to throw burn spells and discard spells at their face and creatures till they die or Wheel of Fate comes into play, and use the extra steam to finish the job.
As a combo player, plan A seems the most viable. Burn decks in my experience don't go very far, especially when your opponent is dropping lots of threats and you need to zap them, but then run out of burn for the face.
The two plans seem not to really compliment eachother... If you're getting Liliana's caress up, then you're not playing burn spells for Bloodchief. And if you play Bloodchief, then you pretty much have to use your burn spells or it's just going to sit there. If you play Bloodchief, then Caress, your opponent get's free turns to bash you/set up their combo.
I guess you could just aggressively mulligan until you get the cards you need for one of the plans, but then you're down on cards with no real way to build up card advantage unless you drop Bob, which delays you another turn.
I'm sure there has to be some way to make this deck more formidable in the first few turns. Jund does it. Why can't we? (Before you say it, the answer is not to add Tarmogoyfs...)
Also, I think we should start considering sideboard options.
If they throw down a Leyline of Sanctity, they've got us by the balls with the main deck. Enchantment removal is not in the Black/Red colour pie. Luckily artifact removal is. Liquimetal Coating turns their Leyline into an artifact that we can smack with Ancient Grudge.
Blood Moon on turn three hoses Tron's lands and also multicolour decks that use a lot of nonbasics like Jund.
Liquimetal Coating in conjuction with Ancient Grudge can also send a piece of Tron to the grave and we can Surgical Extraction it away. Surgical extraction is also good against combo decks.
Against decks that play off the graveyard, we can use Ravenous Trap to exile them before they can make use of it, Nihil Spellbomb does the same, but replaces itself for an extra B. Graveyard hate also significantly weakens Goyfs. Mindbreak Trap is similar but only really beats Storm when they cast Past in Flames.
Set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
I pose a question: Is running Ascension really better than just running more disruption and sweepers? It seems to me that Lili + crazy discard + removal = win, and I wonder if you are really adding win by including all these crazy combo pieces.
Just asking, not trying to poop on your work.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
4 Dark Confidant
Instants & Sorceries: 26
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
4 Burning Inquiry
4 Blightning
4 Wheel of Fate
Other spells: 10
4 Liliana's Caress
4 Megrim
2 Pain Magnification
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
4 Dragonskull summit
4 Sulfurous Springs
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Terminate
3 Blood Moon
2 Pyroclasm
2 Seal of Primordium
2 Nihil spellbomb
2 Ravenous Trap
This deck is a big burn deck in the disguise of a control deck. The idea is to stall out the game as long as possible, zapping their threats and plucking out their bombs with targeted discard. Then, when their options are exhausted, drop your chants and burn them dead.
It seems to work kind of well. If you start with a lot of targeted discard, you're probably in good shape unless you're against a deck like affinity that loves to drop its hand. If that's the case, you can side into your pyroclasms to kill their dudes, and ancient grudge to kill their big pieces like plating.
Green tron really gets a hurting when you discard their karns/fatties. If you can somehow hit their lands with discard (Inquiry/Blightning), you can Extract it and they can basically just scoop from there. Alternatively you can just play blood moon.
Jund falls to blood moon.
Storm gets your ravenous traps and spellbombs. Just hope you draw them before they combo.
Cards I haven't really found a big use for are wheel of fate and pain magnification. Magnification is awesome when you need that little bit of extra damage to finish off your enemy with a Blightning, but other than that it's kind of useless. You're bolting their threats, not their face.
Wheel of fate I am still willing to give a good shot, since it's possible to stall the game long enough to use it. I don't like that it gives control decks ample ammunition to simply counter all the stuff you throw at them the turn it activates though.
Set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Done by Rivenor of Miraculous Recovery signatures!
Any comments, or opinons?
The problem with muse is the mana cost. You don't want to be locked down to one option a turn. The modern environment it's very unforgiving for this sort of thing. The earliest you can drop it is turn 4, and you cant play anything else. In most match ups, this is a critical turn. I wouldn't waste it on something that may or may not do any damage at all. It's a good card, but there are more important things we need to do with this deck.
Wistful thinking is actually a really good card. Getting rid of 4 of their in hand cards is perfect to stop their plans. Unfortunately it costs three. If you've got any other ideas in grixis colours, maybe there's a way to fit this one in.
Not necessarily. If they get out a dude with 3 toughness, then pyroclasm isn't going to do much is it. The only reason not to play slagstorm is the mana cost. If you've tested it and it works for you then why not? In the end, testing is all that matters. If a card does well in the meta, then that's the card we'll use.
Set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Further, serious considerations for Slagstorm should be done. It's fairly acceptable mainboard as either removal or a board wipe. Though Volcanic Fallout might be better, since it's uncounterable and instant speed.
Liliana of the Veil seems necessary. Repeat discard with the option to use as removal, with a strong ultimate, makes her worth considering.
As for the main reason to run a deck like this, properly built it avoids the main issue burn experiences, Leyline of Sanctity.
Last note, please double-check the cards in the main list and if you have a newer list edit it into the newer post to denote your keeping track of the thread.. Seems Bloodchief Ascension is misspelled, making it hard to reference.