I've seen a good amount of modern decks so far, but I haven't seen this one yet. If it's already popular and has another name, sorry! Please let me know and you can lock up the thread. If not, this is a fun one to play
I got this idea from someone on Cockatrice and tuned it up.
Q: Why not just play burn?
A: The interaction with your opponent's hand gives you a better long game against opponents that have survived the burn list's opening 7. Plus, it's a slightly different deck, fun, and often kills equally as quickly as burn does.
This deck kills really quickly and from multiple angles. Getting your opponent into top deck mode in the first 3-4 turns just makes it easier to finish them off.
How to play - Drop one of the enchantments from the package as soon as possible. Follow up with more if you have them. Your hand/deck pretty much plays itself as you continue.
With 1 Enchantment up -
Blightning starts hitting for 7
Burning Inquiry for 6
Smallpox does 3 to them and only one to you
(nearly every spell does "burn" damage at this point)
Card Discussion -
Megrim - The 2 of these might be overkill, but having multiples of this effect on the board just makes this deck better and better.
Burning Inquiry - This card needs one of the enchantments out, but 10 of them makes it consistent and easy. Does massive damage from discard but keeps their hand full for your "hard discard" spells.
Pain Magnification - Amazing synergy in this deck. All the burn and enchantments are each their own sources that set off a chain reaction of more dmg and more discard.
Blightning - As if it wasn't good enough on it's own, it's insane in this deck.
Bloodchief's Ascension - Very easy to turn online with all the burn and the life gain is relevant since you're leaving their creatures alone to swing at you.
Let me know what you guys think of the deck and if you have any suggestions for it, especially for sideboard. Try it out for yourselves on MODO or Cockatrice.
Liliana of the Veil seems like she could be good here as repeatable discard/Edict effect. Plus, Planeswalkers are always difficult problems to solve.
Edit: Did some testing on this list. Oh gawd this is mean. T1 Ascension into T2 Caress into a slow burn game seems to be the way to go - ascension just gets NUTTY once you turn it on and slam down that burning inquiry. Inquiry is such a bomb in this deck.
However, an interesting alternative - have you considered running Kederekt Parasite and instead of Ascension using Quest for Pure Flame? Also, perhaps throwing in some Emberwilde Augurs instead of Augur of Skulls for more Red perm's.
If you took out the ascension, you could also run Rain of Gore if you're seeing stupid lifegain cards.
@Panic_Puppet I totally forgot about Mindcrank!!! Yami's right, that has to be a thing in this deck. Seems like it would be way too easy to get an instant win. Help me figure out how to get it in!
@YamiJoey I agree the execution is lacking a bit. I've never been good at putting together a Modern mana base the most efficient way possible. I'm used to standard and just built it off that. Been testing the deck a lot, though, and have never had mana problems once. Reply and let me know a good mix of lands
Also, I did consider Thoughtseize/Inquisition/etc, but realized that I wasn't ever wanting to go to 1 for 1 discard. It's nice making sure a Goyf doesn't hit the table, that's for sure, but this deck does act more like a burn deck and needs/wants awesome top decks. Knowing that, my next worry was "crap, if I'm drawing more enchantments, those are usually bad top decks, right?". They're actually not, for each kill, burn, discard that you draw, the enchantment just gets you there twice as quickly each time you drop one. So for blatant discard only effects, you want something that does a lot more than a 1 for 1 to match the power that you want to have when top decking.
@SonofBhaal Thanks for testing with the list Fun to play, right? I hadn't considered Quest of Pure Flame in this deck, I've actually been testing it in my Modern burn list to see if it deserves a spot. Been sad to say it's a little too slow And Augur of Skulls seems like a weird card, but he's really an all-star in this deck and almost of a 4 of. I'm still debating about cutting Hellhole Rats for 2 more Augurs. The regenerate effect of this guy is just sick and you hate to lose to a Reliquary or Goyf that you helped them boost because of discard. Plus, he gives your mana something to do if you're top decking with nothing to cast.
----------
Quick rule question - I've always been a little fuzzy on instant based actions and haven't had to deal with this situation in standard much. It's your opponent's turn and he draws a card and goes to his Main Phase 1. Can you immediately regenerate your Augur of Skulls and sac it or does your opponent have priority in action? If I do get to do that immediately upon entering his Main Phase 1, does he get to respond by, say... playing a creature?
@Ignithas, that's an interesting build The only thing I worry about is the reliability of getting only 4 of a feature card in the deck. I tested my version of the list without Megrim only using 8 enchantment effects and found myself wanting a bit more consistency. Only running 4 kills the power of the deck a lot, imo. Without a Bloodchief Ascension, it's only a half burn/half discard deck. With it, this version probably isn't half as powerful or quick.
I do like the Searing Blaze addition, though. I need to work a full compliment of fetch lands and switch out one of my burn spells for this. Too many ground threats are always a concern
@Rambling Simon - The Rack has great synergy with this Nice idea! Do you think there's a card in the main deck that it's better than?
@patomaluco - Smallpox is great. I tried to keep all my discard at 2 or more, but I think you're right that an edict effect is necessary. Pox hurts them a lot more than us due to our low need of land.
They would draw, declare that they are entering their Main Phase (or rather; as they draw, explain that you wish to play a card in their Draw Phase, as very few people will declare this), and then play an Instant speed card or ability.
However; you may not use Augur of Skull's ability in their Draw Step, as his ability states "During your upkeep"
If you sacrifice a guy, regenerate doesn't kick in. Your guy will still be sent to the Graveyard, as 'Regenerate' only stops 'Destroy' mechanics, not Sacrifice, or state-based actions, such as being destroyed due to having 0 Toughness. (Yes, I know I said 'destroy' twice, but this is an exception.)
But yes, as in my first example, you could force them to discard the card they have in their hand before they enter their Main Phase if you used an Instant speed discard ability.
Ah, true! I quickly glanced over the card and thought "sac, draw 2 cards / regen" and completely missed out on everything else
Those might be the two weaker cards in the deck then.
@Blackerest Lotus - Thanks for the comments, I definitely had my doubts about Hellhole Rats as well, and replaced 2 of them and a land with 3 Smallpox. I think I'll make some further adjustments. I'll definitely try out Nocturnus, too. Probably -1 Smallpox -2 Augur of Skulls to +2 Abyssal Nocturnus +1 land (back to 22)
I don't think, that Augur is good, because when the enemy doesn't have any handcards, it's dead and even if he has, you have to leave 2 Mana open to regenerate him after the enemy kills him.
/agree on the Augur
Time to make some adjustments to the main deck post
-----------
Personal testing awesome moment of awesome!
t1 draw land go
t2 draw land Liliana's Caress go
t3 draw land Liliana's Caress, Burning Inquiry for 12 go
t4 draw land Megrim, Burning Inquiry for 18
And looking at my starting hand of 3 land, 2 caress, 2 inquiry... I was actually thinking mulligan
Hmm would running Faithless looting to be able to get this going more realiabely be worth while seems like a lot of the cards are supbar by themselves and for instance discarding via burning inquiry isn't that bad.
Just got done playing this deck with looting...its pretty big addition to be easily overlooked. Will do some more testing like the deck if you do decided to go with Quest for the Nihil Stone going heavy black with Stupor and a decent amount of early game disruption doesn't seem like a terrible deck either.
For this thread to bear the title [Primer] It needs a LOT of work.
Until it puts up results: Moved to Deck Creation.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Have you considered Sign in Blood?
If you start to run out of steam or they dump their hand, making them draw two is exactly what you need. If you play it when theyre in topdeck mode and then immediately follow with a blightning, then thats 9 damage right there if you only have an ascension or a caress up. Could be a game ending 5 mana. Horrifying Revelation is also a great card with bloodchief online. And only 1 cmc
I also think that Phyrexian Arena is a better pick than dark tutelage. The life loss is a lot less harsh than it and Bob, and you don't have to reveal the card.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Build a man a fire, he'll be warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
There has never been a land that enters the battlefield untapped unconditionally and taps for two colors unconditionally. That would be strictly better than a basic land
The enchantment count wouldn't be horrific if there was better draw in the deck. With Burning Inquiry in the deck, it seems like the correct way to go is definitely Faithless Looting. It's highly synergistic - flashback cards are just straight value if you're discarding as well, and it'll help rip through land pockets once you hit the three land threshold. I almost want to play Fires of Undeath... not that we'll ever hit the flashback.
Smallpox is extreme anti-synergy. Usually, if you play this card at all, you're going to want to be dropping in T2 if you're on the draw, T3 if you're on the play in order to try and shut down whatever your opponent's doing. However, from my testing this deck REALLY needs 3 lands in play in order to win. With a land count of 22, you have no guarantees of seeing another land if you blow up your own...
Could be worthwhile with more draw power, as well as excellent sideboard tech vs aggro based decks that are trying to vomit dudes on to the field. They're also working with a low land count, just like we are, but forcing them to lose the land, a creature, AND discard could royally **** them over. The land destruction will mean they won't want to discard any lands they have in hand, which will push them towards either ditching a creature or a win condition. If they ditch the land ANYWAY, you've kept them off whatever anthem they want to play. Or they may even just ditch one of their spells. Whatever the scenario, it's a ruiner.
In reference to some things people have said:
@ Yami: I wouldn't play Fall if you paid me in this deck. It's a worse Hymn to Tourach that might not even force them to discard at all - I'd rather play Psychic Miasma, and that card is awful.
I'm not sure how much I like Nocturnus. It deserves playtesting, but I don't think it gets us there any faster - this deck seems to be winning by T4-5, if it's going to win, without the help of Nocturnus. It might be helpful if your opponent plays something like Leyline of Sanctity (WHICH HOSES US, go figure).
If we're REALLY looking for creature cards with discard, Rotting Rats is good value, AND it comes back if we discard it.
Mindcrank is going to get a test. I'll let you guys know.
lol wheel of fate and faithless looting seem like legit cards to add. Ive been playtesting the looting is actually good i mean this deck loves to win with everyone shocklanding themselves turn 4-5. Just beat past in flames storm with this. Hilariously fun deck.
I'm running fetches to get Stomping Grounds for Ancient Grudge, should I need to board into it. Also, shocks to fix my mana.
Confidant is great, much better than Dark Tutelage in the curve. If you don't have the perfect hand, he helps you get to it. If you need to beat to turn on ascension, you can do that.
Rotting Rats are not so bueno. I might just put in 2 other Confidants.
I rarely stick Pain Magnification, or even want to - at a certain point, it's just superfluous.
Howling Mine is seeming better and better, as my opponents keep seeming to run out of cards before I murder them. I might take out 1 creature and a land to put in 2 Mines.
You NEED 4/4 on the Caress/Megrim. It's such a key part of the deck, and if you don't see it you're pretty much dead in the water.
I'm glad this is really picking up steam I was having good results with the basic version and you guys are making this so much better
@Dark Tutelage comments - you guys are right on in making those comments. I had posted my version without Dark Confidant and that was my mistake as Bob is clearly better. Bob is pretty perfect in this deck as most of our casting costs are very low.
There are a lot of very good discard cards being suggested. I would mention two things about this. First, this is mostly a burn deck taking the best burn we can in Modern and upping it's power level. We definitely want the majority of our top decks to be great whether its another enchantment (doubling the value of discard), more discard, or more burn. Second is more of a question. The big question really and that is "What is our best opponent forcing discard spells?" Originally, I was going for quantity over quality and I'm realizing that probably closes the door on a lot of opportunities for great value.
My first foray into discard + value was Smallpox. We run off less land than many decks, we burn them for 1, and then the discard, of course.
Burning Inquiry falls in the quantity of discard area, but it does so much with this deck for one red mana. All it takes is two enchantments and we're pinging them for 12 for one mana.
Blightning, well, do we really need to talk about Blightning???
Smallpox is probably the weakest discard so the question is what is better than Smallpox that fulfills the purpose of discarding?
The weakest "burn" in the deck that I could see getting rid of is Bump in the Night. Lightning Bolt and Rift Bolt can take care of problem creatures while we delve into our powerful discard focus (or burn to the face, of course). Is there an extremely high value discard spell that would be better in place of Bump in the Night?
@YamiJoey I like your land base and am going to change it up in the OP.
@SonOfBhaal In doing some more testing (and thanks for testing this with me), I'm finding the same thing your finding that this deck has a lot more power with card draw. I'm going to replace Tutelage with Bob and make him a 4 of. Faithless Looting makes me nervous due to the card disadvantage off the first rip, but getting rid of land packets really boosts the top decking power. I'm going to test with Looting for a little bit before I make the changes. I'm having trouble finding a slots for Looting, although, with some of these changes, I could take the mana base from 22 down to 20. Also, after testing Nocturnus, I've come to the same conclusion. We're not winning with creatures, the 4 mana cost is too much, and most of the decks we're up against have a plenty of creature interaction or better creatures overall.
@Wheel of Fate - I love what the card does, but isn't 4 turns too long to wait for it to kick in?
@Ancient Grudge - Sideboard card necessity and a good start to building one
@Sideboard - Leyline of Sanctity definitely murders us cold. Do we have anything great in red or black to deal with that?
Changes coming in OP so check them out and comment
@JM: Don't think of Wheel as a card forcing them to discard - that's just a bonus. The 4 turns it takes for it to go off are just time for us to play out our hand - I'm finding that the best policy, if you know you're going to take longer to win (based on what's in your hand), is to play it immediately turn 2. You spend turns 3-5 playing out our hand as best we can, aiming to get as low as possible...
And then once turn 6 hits and it goes off, you can almost hear the Ka-CHIK as our shotgun of hate/burn reloads and we untap with full mana.
Try my version out - even in solitaire, you'll see you'll probably have an empty grip after T5. This is perhaps the biggest problem for burn decks in general, as the spells are such a low CMC that you can conceivably fire off 2 per turn once you get to 3 mana. Even with our card draw off Bob, and maybe Howling Mine if you're playing it, you'll have problems not running out that quickly. The Wheel is just a restock, and untapping with a full hand and full mana (if our enchants have stuck) is usually GG.
Wheel of Fortune is banned/restricted in so many things because it absolutely BREAKS burn wide open. Wheel of Fate is almost just as good in our case, as we don't have to spend a turn's mana to do it.
Also, I'm starting to think that, based on the fact I've hit 6 mana maybe ONCE in all my playtesting, that Bump in the Night is somewhat lackluster. We may be better off with simple Shock variants - Rift Bolt may go back in for my version as a replacement for it, as it's just strictly better.
Then again, Rift Bolt is a little awkward with Ascension. I really just want to burn my opponents NOW, which is why shock may be better.
Additionally, the deck I mentioned earlier is called Urzatron (click the link for a decklist), and it's a FACEREAMING. T3 Wurmcoils wreck us. I'm thinking either Thoughtseize and Despise also have places in our SB, if not the maindeck, because that deck seems like the thing to beat at the moment.
Hmm i want to try wheel of fate over faithless looting if im not gonna run bloodghast for faithless looting. Wheel seems legit because around turn 3-4 i start running out of steam. Burning inquiry is too good to remove.
edit-wheel of fate is rather slow faithless is useable when you need it....its much better will try to make space for bloodghast and see how that works with those 2. can get rid of bump or pain magnification and something.
Burning inquiry has been a STAPLE of my casual version of this deck for a couple years now, and it is pretty legit. Wheel of Fate can be good, but it also allows your opponent plenty of time to minimize the impact, and that is not a good thing. I am quite surprised to see that no one has suggested Teferi's Puzzle Box. It is pretty amazing in a deck like this. Woops, was thinking of wrong deck.
What about a blue splash for Careful Consideration, Compulsive Research or Wistful Thinking? Wistful Thinking could be devastating vs. an opponent with two cards in hand.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You like Super Smash Bros.? Melee or Brawl? Check this out! http://projectm.dantarion.com/
It's an updated version of Brawl into an epic, new game.
After doing some testing, I'm having trouble getting the right mix of burn-discard-enchantments.
I've taken out Pain Magnification because unless you're going to win anyway, it's too slow to get out and doesn't do much when it gets there. Wheel of fate is a great card if you suspend it turn 2, but otherwise, you're dead before it resolves.
Duress/Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize turn 1 to delay whatever your opponent is doing is almost always a necessity. Don't forget we're playing in modern where affinity smashes your face turn 4 consistently and storm can combo off in your face turn 3. This deck isn't nearly fast enough to have a solitaire win. This means our very early game has to be all about zapping threats and hitting their pieces with targeted discard.
I also feel like Bloodchief Ascension is too slow on its own. A proliferate from volt charge turn three almost always guaruntees an online Ascension turn 4. Maybe that's the way to go? Turn 1 and two can be about zapping and disruption and then you can get your ascension online and start wrecking their ****.
There has never been a land that enters the battlefield untapped unconditionally and taps for two colors unconditionally. That would be strictly better than a basic land
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I've seen a good amount of modern decks so far, but I haven't seen this one yet. If it's already popular and has another name, sorry! Please let me know and you can lock up the thread. If not, this is a fun one to play
I got this idea from someone on Cockatrice and tuned it up.
Q: Why not just play burn?
A: The interaction with your opponent's hand gives you a better long game against opponents that have survived the burn list's opening 7. Plus, it's a slightly different deck, fun, and often kills equally as quickly as burn does.
4 Liliana's Caress
4 Bloodchief's Ascension
2 Megrim
Creature Draw
4 Dark Confidant
Support Enchantment
2 Pain Magnification
"To The Face" Package
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Bump in the Night
4 Rift Bolt
4 Blightning
Forced Discard
4 Burning Inquiry
2 Smallpox
Lands 22
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Blood Crypt
2 Stomping Grounds
4 Verdant Catacombs
5 Swamp
3 Mountain
This deck kills really quickly and from multiple angles. Getting your opponent into top deck mode in the first 3-4 turns just makes it easier to finish them off.
How to play - Drop one of the enchantments from the package as soon as possible. Follow up with more if you have them. Your hand/deck pretty much plays itself as you continue.
With 1 Enchantment up -
Blightning starts hitting for 7
Burning Inquiry for 6
Smallpox does 3 to them and only one to you
(nearly every spell does "burn" damage at this point)
Card Discussion -
Megrim - The 2 of these might be overkill, but having multiples of this effect on the board just makes this deck better and better.
Burning Inquiry - This card needs one of the enchantments out, but 10 of them makes it consistent and easy. Does massive damage from discard but keeps their hand full for your "hard discard" spells.
Pain Magnification - Amazing synergy in this deck. All the burn and enchantments are each their own sources that set off a chain reaction of more dmg and more discard.
Blightning - As if it wasn't good enough on it's own, it's insane in this deck.
Bloodchief's Ascension - Very easy to turn online with all the burn and the life gain is relevant since you're leaving their creatures alone to swing at you.
Let me know what you guys think of the deck and if you have any suggestions for it, especially for sideboard. Try it out for yourselves on MODO or Cockatrice.
Edit: Did some testing on this list. Oh gawd this is mean. T1 Ascension into T2 Caress into a slow burn game seems to be the way to go - ascension just gets NUTTY once you turn it on and slam down that burning inquiry. Inquiry is such a bomb in this deck.
However, an interesting alternative - have you considered running Kederekt Parasite and instead of Ascension using Quest for Pure Flame? Also, perhaps throwing in some Emberwilde Augurs instead of Augur of Skulls for more Red perm's.
If you took out the ascension, you could also run Rain of Gore if you're seeing stupid lifegain cards.
RRRHeartless Hidetsugu: The Ogre for TrollsRRR
BBBSeizan's Perverted VicesBBB
@Panic_Puppet I totally forgot about Mindcrank!!! Yami's right, that has to be a thing in this deck. Seems like it would be way too easy to get an instant win. Help me figure out how to get it in!
@YamiJoey I agree the execution is lacking a bit. I've never been good at putting together a Modern mana base the most efficient way possible. I'm used to standard and just built it off that. Been testing the deck a lot, though, and have never had mana problems once. Reply and let me know a good mix of lands
Also, I did consider Thoughtseize/Inquisition/etc, but realized that I wasn't ever wanting to go to 1 for 1 discard. It's nice making sure a Goyf doesn't hit the table, that's for sure, but this deck does act more like a burn deck and needs/wants awesome top decks. Knowing that, my next worry was "crap, if I'm drawing more enchantments, those are usually bad top decks, right?". They're actually not, for each kill, burn, discard that you draw, the enchantment just gets you there twice as quickly each time you drop one. So for blatant discard only effects, you want something that does a lot more than a 1 for 1 to match the power that you want to have when top decking.
@SonofBhaal Thanks for testing with the list Fun to play, right? I hadn't considered Quest of Pure Flame in this deck, I've actually been testing it in my Modern burn list to see if it deserves a spot. Been sad to say it's a little too slow And Augur of Skulls seems like a weird card, but he's really an all-star in this deck and almost of a 4 of. I'm still debating about cutting Hellhole Rats for 2 more Augurs. The regenerate effect of this guy is just sick and you hate to lose to a Reliquary or Goyf that you helped them boost because of discard. Plus, he gives your mana something to do if you're top decking with nothing to cast.
----------
Quick rule question - I've always been a little fuzzy on instant based actions and haven't had to deal with this situation in standard much. It's your opponent's turn and he draws a card and goes to his Main Phase 1. Can you immediately regenerate your Augur of Skulls and sac it or does your opponent have priority in action? If I do get to do that immediately upon entering his Main Phase 1, does he get to respond by, say... playing a creature?
I do like the Searing Blaze addition, though. I need to work a full compliment of fetch lands and switch out one of my burn spells for this. Too many ground threats are always a concern
@Rambling Simon - The Rack has great synergy with this Nice idea! Do you think there's a card in the main deck that it's better than?
@patomaluco - Smallpox is great. I tried to keep all my discard at 2 or more, but I think you're right that an edict effect is necessary. Pox hurts them a lot more than us due to our low need of land.
Ah, true! I quickly glanced over the card and thought "sac, draw 2 cards / regen" and completely missed out on everything else
Those might be the two weaker cards in the deck then.
@Blackerest Lotus - Thanks for the comments, I definitely had my doubts about Hellhole Rats as well, and replaced 2 of them and a land with 3 Smallpox. I think I'll make some further adjustments. I'll definitely try out Nocturnus, too. Probably -1 Smallpox -2 Augur of Skulls to +2 Abyssal Nocturnus +1 land (back to 22)
/agree on the Augur
Time to make some adjustments to the main deck post
-----------
Personal testing awesome moment of awesome!
t1 draw land go
t2 draw land Liliana's Caress go
t3 draw land Liliana's Caress, Burning Inquiry for 12 go
t4 draw land Megrim, Burning Inquiry for 18
And looking at my starting hand of 3 land, 2 caress, 2 inquiry... I was actually thinking mulligan
Just got done playing this deck with looting...its pretty big addition to be easily overlooked. Will do some more testing like the deck if you do decided to go with Quest for the Nihil Stone going heavy black with Stupor and a decent amount of early game disruption doesn't seem like a terrible deck either.
Until it puts up results: Moved to Deck Creation.
If you start to run out of steam or they dump their hand, making them draw two is exactly what you need. If you play it when theyre in topdeck mode and then immediately follow with a blightning, then thats 9 damage right there if you only have an ascension or a caress up. Could be a game ending 5 mana.
Horrifying Revelation is also a great card with bloodchief online. And only 1 cmc
I also think that Phyrexian Arena is a better pick than dark tutelage. The life loss is a lot less harsh than it and Bob, and you don't have to reveal the card.
Set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
The enchantment count wouldn't be horrific if there was better draw in the deck. With Burning Inquiry in the deck, it seems like the correct way to go is definitely Faithless Looting. It's highly synergistic - flashback cards are just straight value if you're discarding as well, and it'll help rip through land pockets once you hit the three land threshold. I almost want to play Fires of Undeath... not that we'll ever hit the flashback.
I am also sorely tempted to play Dark Confidant.
Smallpox is extreme anti-synergy. Usually, if you play this card at all, you're going to want to be dropping in T2 if you're on the draw, T3 if you're on the play in order to try and shut down whatever your opponent's doing. However, from my testing this deck REALLY needs 3 lands in play in order to win. With a land count of 22, you have no guarantees of seeing another land if you blow up your own...
Could be worthwhile with more draw power, as well as excellent sideboard tech vs aggro based decks that are trying to vomit dudes on to the field. They're also working with a low land count, just like we are, but forcing them to lose the land, a creature, AND discard could royally **** them over. The land destruction will mean they won't want to discard any lands they have in hand, which will push them towards either ditching a creature or a win condition. If they ditch the land ANYWAY, you've kept them off whatever anthem they want to play. Or they may even just ditch one of their spells. Whatever the scenario, it's a ruiner.
In reference to some things people have said:
@ Yami: I wouldn't play Fall if you paid me in this deck. It's a worse Hymn to Tourach that might not even force them to discard at all - I'd rather play Psychic Miasma, and that card is awful.
I'm not sure how much I like Nocturnus. It deserves playtesting, but I don't think it gets us there any faster - this deck seems to be winning by T4-5, if it's going to win, without the help of Nocturnus. It might be helpful if your opponent plays something like Leyline of Sanctity (WHICH HOSES US, go figure).
If we're REALLY looking for creature cards with discard, Rotting Rats is good value, AND it comes back if we discard it.
Mindcrank is going to get a test. I'll let you guys know.
RRRHeartless Hidetsugu: The Ogre for TrollsRRR
BBBSeizan's Perverted VicesBBB
meta-dependent, Ancient Grudge and Stomping Grounds might be needed. I've been seeing some dumb artifact decks on Cockatrice, including the Urza's Mine / Urza's Power Plant / Urza's who the hell cares decks that are ramping into T3 Karn Liberated or Wurmcoil Engine (I've even seen them cast T5-6 Emrakul) using things like Chromatic Star and Prophetic Prism to produce mana for Ancient Stirrings and Sylvan Tutor to complete their combos.
I hate that deck so much. And it's damn consistent. But if we take away their artifacts, they're dependent on draw.
It would also destroy any Tempered Steel or Affinity variants.
Additionally, we should keep it light on the shocks. With few creatures, aggro can deal a lot of damage exceedingly quickly.
RRRHeartless Hidetsugu: The Ogre for TrollsRRR
BBBSeizan's Perverted VicesBBB
Wheel of Fate.
RRRHeartless Hidetsugu: The Ogre for TrollsRRR
BBBSeizan's Perverted VicesBBB
This is the decklist I'm experimenting with:
4 Blightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Bump in the Night
4 Wheel of Fate
3 Burning Inquiry
2 Faithless Looting
4 Liliana's Caress
4 Bloodchief Ascension
4 Megrim
2 Pain Magnification
Creatures
2 Rotting Rats
2 Dark Confidant
6 Swamp
3 Mountain
2 Blood Crypt
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Stomping Ground
Observations:
I'm running fetches to get Stomping Grounds for Ancient Grudge, should I need to board into it. Also, shocks to fix my mana.
Confidant is great, much better than Dark Tutelage in the curve. If you don't have the perfect hand, he helps you get to it. If you need to beat to turn on ascension, you can do that.
Rotting Rats are not so bueno. I might just put in 2 other Confidants.
I rarely stick Pain Magnification, or even want to - at a certain point, it's just superfluous.
Howling Mine is seeming better and better, as my opponents keep seeming to run out of cards before I murder them. I might take out 1 creature and a land to put in 2 Mines.
You NEED 4/4 on the Caress/Megrim. It's such a key part of the deck, and if you don't see it you're pretty much dead in the water.
Will continue testing and reporting.
RRRHeartless Hidetsugu: The Ogre for TrollsRRR
BBBSeizan's Perverted VicesBBB
@Dark Tutelage comments - you guys are right on in making those comments. I had posted my version without Dark Confidant and that was my mistake as Bob is clearly better. Bob is pretty perfect in this deck as most of our casting costs are very low.
There are a lot of very good discard cards being suggested. I would mention two things about this. First, this is mostly a burn deck taking the best burn we can in Modern and upping it's power level. We definitely want the majority of our top decks to be great whether its another enchantment (doubling the value of discard), more discard, or more burn. Second is more of a question. The big question really and that is "What is our best opponent forcing discard spells?" Originally, I was going for quantity over quality and I'm realizing that probably closes the door on a lot of opportunities for great value.
My first foray into discard + value was Smallpox. We run off less land than many decks, we burn them for 1, and then the discard, of course.
Burning Inquiry falls in the quantity of discard area, but it does so much with this deck for one red mana. All it takes is two enchantments and we're pinging them for 12 for one mana.
Blightning, well, do we really need to talk about Blightning???
Smallpox is probably the weakest discard so the question is what is better than Smallpox that fulfills the purpose of discarding?
The weakest "burn" in the deck that I could see getting rid of is Bump in the Night. Lightning Bolt and Rift Bolt can take care of problem creatures while we delve into our powerful discard focus (or burn to the face, of course). Is there an extremely high value discard spell that would be better in place of Bump in the Night?
@YamiJoey I like your land base and am going to change it up in the OP.
@SonOfBhaal In doing some more testing (and thanks for testing this with me), I'm finding the same thing your finding that this deck has a lot more power with card draw. I'm going to replace Tutelage with Bob and make him a 4 of. Faithless Looting makes me nervous due to the card disadvantage off the first rip, but getting rid of land packets really boosts the top decking power. I'm going to test with Looting for a little bit before I make the changes. I'm having trouble finding a slots for Looting, although, with some of these changes, I could take the mana base from 22 down to 20. Also, after testing Nocturnus, I've come to the same conclusion. We're not winning with creatures, the 4 mana cost is too much, and most of the decks we're up against have a plenty of creature interaction or better creatures overall.
@Wheel of Fate - I love what the card does, but isn't 4 turns too long to wait for it to kick in?
@Ancient Grudge - Sideboard card necessity and a good start to building one
@Sideboard - Leyline of Sanctity definitely murders us cold. Do we have anything great in red or black to deal with that?
Changes coming in OP so check them out and comment
And then once turn 6 hits and it goes off, you can almost hear the Ka-CHIK as our shotgun of hate/burn reloads and we untap with full mana.
Try my version out - even in solitaire, you'll see you'll probably have an empty grip after T5. This is perhaps the biggest problem for burn decks in general, as the spells are such a low CMC that you can conceivably fire off 2 per turn once you get to 3 mana. Even with our card draw off Bob, and maybe Howling Mine if you're playing it, you'll have problems not running out that quickly. The Wheel is just a restock, and untapping with a full hand and full mana (if our enchants have stuck) is usually GG.
Wheel of Fortune is banned/restricted in so many things because it absolutely BREAKS burn wide open. Wheel of Fate is almost just as good in our case, as we don't have to spend a turn's mana to do it.
Also, I'm starting to think that, based on the fact I've hit 6 mana maybe ONCE in all my playtesting, that Bump in the Night is somewhat lackluster. We may be better off with simple Shock variants - Rift Bolt may go back in for my version as a replacement for it, as it's just strictly better.
Then again, Rift Bolt is a little awkward with Ascension. I really just want to burn my opponents NOW, which is why shock may be better.
Additionally, the deck I mentioned earlier is called Urzatron (click the link for a decklist), and it's a FACEREAMING. T3 Wurmcoils wreck us. I'm thinking either Thoughtseize and Despise also have places in our SB, if not the maindeck, because that deck seems like the thing to beat at the moment.
RRRHeartless Hidetsugu: The Ogre for TrollsRRR
BBBSeizan's Perverted VicesBBB
Forked Bolt.
SCREW YOU DELVERS. SCREW YOU SPIRIT TOKENS.
Alternatively...
Lightning Axe?
Also, Barbed Shocker is a dude.
RRRHeartless Hidetsugu: The Ogre for TrollsRRR
BBBSeizan's Perverted VicesBBB
edit-wheel of fate is rather slow faithless is useable when you need it....its much better will try to make space for bloodghast and see how that works with those 2. can get rid of bump or pain magnification and something.
Going to replace to Smallpox with 2 Wheel of Fate and keep testing
I am quite surprised to see that no one has suggested Teferi's Puzzle Box. It is pretty amazing in a deck like this.Woops, was thinking of wrong deck.Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
It's an updated version of Brawl into an epic, new game.
And for burn
In essence, this is a burn deck... with an awesome discard package ... that when discarded burns them... and vice versa
I've taken out Pain Magnification because unless you're going to win anyway, it's too slow to get out and doesn't do much when it gets there. Wheel of fate is a great card if you suspend it turn 2, but otherwise, you're dead before it resolves.
Duress/Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoughtseize turn 1 to delay whatever your opponent is doing is almost always a necessity. Don't forget we're playing in modern where affinity smashes your face turn 4 consistently and storm can combo off in your face turn 3. This deck isn't nearly fast enough to have a solitaire win. This means our very early game has to be all about zapping threats and hitting their pieces with targeted discard.
I also feel like Bloodchief Ascension is too slow on its own. A proliferate from volt charge turn three almost always guaruntees an online Ascension turn 4. Maybe that's the way to go? Turn 1 and two can be about zapping and disruption and then you can get your ascension online and start wrecking their ****.
Set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.