About Ghost Quarter vs Tectonic Edge. In a deck with 4 Life From the Loam I think that Ghost Quarter is better against Affinity (only 2 basics), Jund (2to4 basics) Tron and maybe RUG Delver (not sure how many basics they run). Waiting for your opponent to get to 4 lands if they are playing Tron can be too late. Against other decks Tectonic is better no doubt about it.
Lectrys, bolting BoP or not really depends on the game. But the thing is if your BoP is the only reason why you aren't color screwed or you keep a 1land 1 BoP that bolt can win them the game.
The naya list seems pretty good, I like the one from isopsycho86 better (not a fan of birds in a format with so much removal). Engineered Explosives and Faithless Looting I don't like. I can't find a match were I really want the explosives except maybe affinity. And without Raven's Crime and Flame Jab looting loses power.
I think that if I played the Naya list I would make this chance: -4 Looting, -2 Explosives, 3 Kitchen Finks, 3 Lightning Helix.
Naya is probably better against Zoo, Boros, R/XW and G1 against Aff. But I think the RGB version is better against combo/control thanks to discard and flamejab/jundcharm/darkblast make G2&G3 against aff better.
I can see your points there. I might drop the Engineered explosives, but while I understand the appeal and even the power of raven's crime, I don't think I'll play it mainboard, I'd rather run faithless looting as a gas tank (since it either gets you cards or gets you loam from the yard, and Flame Jab I really don't like...I don't know if it's just me, I don't like it.
I'll probably drop the explosives and 1 looting for 3 helix.
About Ghost Quarter vs Tectonic Edge. In a deck with 4 Life From the Loam I think that Ghost Quarter is better against Affinity (only 2 basics), Jund (2to4 basics) Tron and maybe RUG Delver (not sure how many basics they run). Waiting for your opponent to get to 4 lands if they are playing Tron can be too late. Against other decks Tectonic is better no doubt about it.
this makes no sense to me...you do know that Tec edge only hits non-basics right? Meaning that if you hit the couple non-basics they have or they only lay basics it's a dead card. Ghost quarter can just run through their lands if they are screwed, where as if they just sit at 3 lands and play little but good spells all game tec edge does nothing. I'll probably playtest both of them but I like ghost quarter more cause I also don't need to leave up a mana to pay for it...
I can see your points there. I might drop the Engineered explosives, but while I understand the appeal and even the power of raven's crime, I don't think I'll play it mainboard, I'd rather run faithless looting as a gas tank (since it either gets you cards or gets you loam from the yard, and Flame Jab I really don't like...I don't know if it's just me, I don't like it.
I'll probably drop the explosives and 1 looting for 3 helix.
Well while Flame Jab isn't amazing, it's a house against affinity (kills everything except ornitopther, ravager and champion) RUG Delver (only Tarmogoyf lives), UB Delver and Faires. I depends on how much help your deck needs in those matches (I don't use Flame Jab myself).
Looting is great I just don't know how useful it is in a deck that only wants 4 spells and lands in your graveyard, at least it can smooth out your draws and help with the lack of Dark Confidant.
Lightning Helix is so good that sometimes I want to add white to the deck just for it (and maybe Path to exile against Finks).
EDIT: Didn't see the comment about Quarter/Edge.
Well I like Ghost Quarter more too, but I can see how against some decks like Faeries, Boros, Martyr Procs, Twin, UR Storm and UW Caw Tectonic may be better.
Well while Flame Jab isn't amazing, it's a house against affinity (kills everything except ornitopther, ravager and champion) RUG Delver (only Tarmogoyf lives), UB Delver and Faires. I depends on how much help your deck needs in those matches (I don't use Flame Jab myself).
Looting is great I just don't know how useful it is in a deck that only wants 4 spells and lands in your graveyard, at least it can smooth out your draws and help with the lack of Dark Confidant.
Lightning Helix is so good that sometimes I want to add white to the deck just for it (and maybe Path to exile against Finks).
EDIT: Didn't see the comment about Quarter/Edge.
Well I like Ghost Quarter more too, but I can see how against some decks like Faeries, Boros, Martyr Procs, Twin, UR Storm and UW Caw Tectonic may be better.
As far as looting, that's why I put it in the list, we need some sort of CA and looting is our best option if we aren't in Black.
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the user formerly known as isopsycho86
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
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One thing to keep in mind about Quarter is against decks with Clique or Gifts, they can use your Quarter as a mana boost (i.e., in response to Quarter, tap two lands, then tap the 3rd that GQ gives them to drop Clique).
Also, if all those decks want to kill Birds of Paradise so badly, then it's evidently a card worth running, which proves my point. If they're apparently that ready to kill it, imagine how much they'll hate it when a BoP survives. BoP is a major tempo boost, but if you don't like it, there's always Explore.
As far as looting, that's why I put it in the list, we need some sort of CA and looting is our best option if we aren't in Black.
I think the greatest thing Looting gives for you is the ability dig for cards from your library while also being able to dredge every turn with loam. Typically, once you're in dredge mode, you're not going to be able to cast any goyfs, crushers, or Seismic Assaults, but since Looting allows you to essentially draw 2 (since you're discarding 2 lands anyway), you're golden.
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I don't like Burning Vengeance instead of Seismic Assault . Burning falls against graveyard hate while Assault doesn't, the deck is mana hungry and Assault will be a faster clock most of the time, plus Assault seems plain better when you're in top deck mode. Noxious Revival is cute but I only see it being viable in the Naya version that doesn't use retrace cards, otherwise you don't really need a regrowth effect.
I've been trying to fit Faithless Looting looting in my version but I just can't find the spots for it.
A few ways to make Burning Vengeance better is if you add cards like Haakon, Gravecrawler, and Nameless Inversion. Changes the deck a lot but makes you less reliant on Loam.
A few ways to make Burning Vengeance better is if you add cards like Haakon, Gravecrawler, and Nameless Inversion. Changes the deck a lot but makes you less reliant on Loam.
It's an interesting thought, but Seismic assault doesn't make you reliant on loam. Neither does the creature strategy in the naya build. either way, it's another way to go.
I feel like retrace makes you heavily reliant on loam, as if you can't get your loam engine going you don't have the fuel to retrace things. This feel less like aggro-loam, and more like midrange/control jund. How did this deck place in the Daily?
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the user formerly known as isopsycho86
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
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I think that for this deck to be successful we need to be able to play around graveyard hate and being able to win if Loam get's extirpated. And for that I would either go with an aggro naya build like the one isopsycho86 posted or like my jund aggro version posted in page 5.
The last list posted has Smallpox which I think is awesome but unless you play around graveyard hate very well or people just don't play grave hate (like at GP Lincoln) you'll roll over and die when Extirpate hit's loam.
Ok so I finally sleeved up the deck and ran through a few goldfish runs. And i have to say the faithless looting engine + loam is HUGE. It's both a way to get Crusher and KotR bigger, and give you fuel for assault if you are just trying to eek out those last few points of damage. Every time I cast BBE I was happy with what I hit since nothing in here is ever dead as a cast (except assault if you have one out already).
I've thought about the horizon canopy, but with flame jab I really don't like it. It's a good thing with loam, but just pitching those lands to Seismic assault is better.
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the user formerly known as isopsycho86
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig Legacy RUBFaithless Dredge
Definitely a decent list. The only reason burning vengeance works is because of the retrace cards and is only there for them. Granted it turns flame jabs into lightning bolts but it's a wonky 2 card combo that you would have to get into your hand to do anything so if you dredge it out you are likely to not be able to use it at all.
I've thought (bad ideas happen when I'm tired at work) about a 4 color build with Urborg in the maindeck, if we drop tarmogoyf for a 4 of raven's crime, or maelstrom pulse it might be worth it. Otherwise I think I'm dropping goyf anyway for something that helps with smoothing the draws of the deck, like explore, and it synergizes really well with loam again.
If I were to go with a 4 color build it would probably be some bastardized blend of naya and jund...I'll go suffer with this idea tonight and tell you what awful things I come up with.
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the user formerly known as isopsycho86
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig Legacy RUBFaithless Dredge
Does anyone acknowledge that none of these Daily decks have an answer to Leyline of the Void. I see the occasional Pulse here or there but never more than 2. So is the idea behind this that Leyline is to much of a fringe card right now?
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Does anyone acknowledge that none of these Daily decks have an answer to Leyline of the Void. I see the occasional Pulse here or there but never more than 2. So is the idea behind this that Leyline is to much of a fringe card right now?
i think the biggest issue with running much hate at all is that GY hate just isn't as prevalent as you would expect. In the long term, loam players are going to have to start worrying about it more as people get wise to how much GY hate hoses certain decks... (btw this is why I run pridemage...in addition to bloodmoon)
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the user formerly known as isopsycho86
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig Legacy RUBFaithless Dredge
as far as vengence is concerned, it's inferior to seismic. vengence is a win more card for when you have a retrace in the gy: a retrace card in GY still needs loam, and sesimic does as well. jab and crime are sorceries, and seismic functions as an instant. while testing, I lost several matches to timing vs steppe lynx and any haste creature. also, crime and jab still require mana.
consider dredging up a loam:
secenario A: you have vengence and an appropriate retrace.
you cast loam for 1G. you get 3 lands back, you cast your retrace (which is likely crime unless there is a kill you next turn/become unmanagable on board) for BBB/RRR and deal 6 damage
totals: 5 mana and they either discard 3, and you split 6 damage or split 9
scenario B: you have seismic.
You cast loam for 1g, and discard 3 lands to it. split 6 damage.
totals: 1g and split 6 damage.
the first scenario can kill in 2 turns, assuming they've played a shockland, but it also assumes you ignore the opponent's hand and or creatures. if you retrace crime 3 times you do get to kill a creature/dome for 6, but you do need the mana and can't play anything else.
in the second, your mana remains free to do several other important things: cast retrace (in which case seismic and vengence do the exact same thing for the same amount of mana), flashback lootings, cast other things in your hand (you will have some). you will need to interact with the board: people will play creatures. luckily, most of the stuff you care about is x/1 , x/2 or tarmogoyf.
(relevant: bob, snapcaster, clique, finks, anything boros, early fish, bloodbraid) Keep your lands in your hand, ready to use until EOT and you're fine.
it's important to note that playing the retrace spells in an assault shell is fine too: this is a loam deck that kills with seismic or creature beats. You don't have a ton of disruption outside crime and inquisition/thoughtseize. the reason crime is amazing is that with a good hand (say 3 land, a crime and a loam) you can strip another deck's hand by t3/t4 assuming they play 1-2 spells and appropriate lands. (crime you on 1, double crime you on 2, 3 more on 3, cast loam and finish on 3 or 4, depending on how much they played). they're also value pitches to lilly and looting: the casting difference (requiring a land in hand) is negligible. Also pitching land to anything grows crusher. having a 7/7 crusher is, well, bigger than tarmogoyf.
there should be space for a one of worm harvest: it's amazing against anything in that you can dredge into it and then simply cast loam and it for the rest of the game and win, assuming you don't run into flying nexii with plates.
One problem with the Vengevines is that they come into play and are not cast so they do not trigger Burning Vengeance unlike Haakon and Gravecrawler. I really like the list but it seems to be affected by GrafDigger's Cage more than the aggro lists.
I think that a more aggro list is better in a meta prepared with lots of graveyard hate and few tempo delver decks and a more dredge loam like Bronson's list in a meta with few graveyard hate.
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Lectrys, bolting BoP or not really depends on the game. But the thing is if your BoP is the only reason why you aren't color screwed or you keep a 1land 1 BoP that bolt can win them the game.
I can see your points there. I might drop the Engineered explosives, but while I understand the appeal and even the power of raven's crime, I don't think I'll play it mainboard, I'd rather run faithless looting as a gas tank (since it either gets you cards or gets you loam from the yard, and Flame Jab I really don't like...I don't know if it's just me, I don't like it.
I'll probably drop the explosives and 1 looting for 3 helix.
this makes no sense to me...you do know that Tec edge only hits non-basics right? Meaning that if you hit the couple non-basics they have or they only lay basics it's a dead card. Ghost quarter can just run through their lands if they are screwed, where as if they just sit at 3 lands and play little but good spells all game tec edge does nothing. I'll probably playtest both of them but I like ghost quarter more cause I also don't need to leave up a mana to pay for it...
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Well while Flame Jab isn't amazing, it's a house against affinity (kills everything except ornitopther, ravager and champion) RUG Delver (only Tarmogoyf lives), UB Delver and Faires. I depends on how much help your deck needs in those matches (I don't use Flame Jab myself).
Looting is great I just don't know how useful it is in a deck that only wants 4 spells and lands in your graveyard, at least it can smooth out your draws and help with the lack of Dark Confidant.
Lightning Helix is so good that sometimes I want to add white to the deck just for it (and maybe Path to exile against Finks).
EDIT: Didn't see the comment about Quarter/Edge.
Well I like Ghost Quarter more too, but I can see how against some decks like Faeries, Boros, Martyr Procs, Twin, UR Storm and UW Caw Tectonic may be better.
As far as looting, that's why I put it in the list, we need some sort of CA and looting is our best option if we aren't in Black.
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Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig
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RUBFaithless Dredge
Also, if all those decks want to kill Birds of Paradise so badly, then it's evidently a card worth running, which proves my point. If they're apparently that ready to kill it, imagine how much they'll hate it when a BoP survives. BoP is a major tempo boost, but if you don't like it, there's always Explore.
It's an updated version of Brawl into an epic, new game.
I think the greatest thing Looting gives for you is the ability dig for cards from your library while also being able to dredge every turn with loam. Typically, once you're in dredge mode, you're not going to be able to cast any goyfs, crushers, or Seismic Assaults, but since Looting allows you to essentially draw 2 (since you're discarding 2 lands anyway), you're golden.
Burning Vengeance might be really good with Faithless Looting and Ancient Grudge. Nice catch. But it's not as fast as discarding 3-4 lands every turn with Seismic Assault. I like the idea, tho.
It's faster if you are on flame jab, and the same speed with disruption if you have raven's crime or the like.
Flame jab is 1 point + the 2 from burning vengeance. Still it isn't needed and is is only situational.
We might be able to find a couple spots for noxious revival, but I don't know if it is really needed....or where it would go
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig
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Noxious Revival is cute but I only see it being viable in the Naya version that doesn't use retrace cards, otherwise you don't really need a regrowth effect.
I've been trying to fit Faithless Looting looting in my version but I just can't find the spots for it.
60 cards
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
2 Copperline Gorge
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Forest
2 Graven Cairns
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Mountain
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Raging Ravine
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Faithless Looting
3 Flame Jab
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Life from the Loam
4 Raven's Crime
3 Seismic Assault
4 Smallpox
1 Thoughtseize
1 Worm Harvest
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Combust
2 Darkblast
2 Jund Charm
3 Obstinate Baloth
2 Shatterstorm
1 Tectonic Edge
It's an interesting thought, but Seismic assault doesn't make you reliant on loam. Neither does the creature strategy in the naya build. either way, it's another way to go.
I feel like retrace makes you heavily reliant on loam, as if you can't get your loam engine going you don't have the fuel to retrace things. This feel less like aggro-loam, and more like midrange/control jund. How did this deck place in the Daily?
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig
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The last list posted has Smallpox which I think is awesome but unless you play around graveyard hate very well or people just don't play grave hate (like at GP Lincoln) you'll roll over and die when Extirpate hit's loam.
Here is the current build
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Countryside Crusher
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Qasali Pridemage
Spells
3 Seismic Assault
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
4 Faithless Looting
4 Life from the Loam
4 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Raging Ravine
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Reflecting Pool
2 Rootbound Crag
2 Rugged Prarie
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Stomping Ground
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Firelit Thicket
1 Temple Garden
It's very fast and most decks wont be able to come up with enough answers if you are able to cast BBE on T4
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig
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RUBFaithless Dredge
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig
Legacy
RUBFaithless Dredge
I've thought (bad ideas happen when I'm tired at work) about a 4 color build with Urborg in the maindeck, if we drop tarmogoyf for a 4 of raven's crime, or maelstrom pulse it might be worth it. Otherwise I think I'm dropping goyf anyway for something that helps with smoothing the draws of the deck, like explore, and it synergizes really well with loam again.
If I were to go with a 4 color build it would probably be some bastardized blend of naya and jund...I'll go suffer with this idea tonight and tell you what awful things I come up with.
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig
Legacy
RUBFaithless Dredge
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
i think the biggest issue with running much hate at all is that GY hate just isn't as prevalent as you would expect. In the long term, loam players are going to have to start worrying about it more as people get wise to how much GY hate hoses certain decks... (btw this is why I run pridemage...in addition to bloodmoon)
DCI Judge L2 - Minneapolis
Thanks to Megabug/Sgt Chubbz and Kracked Graphics for the Sig
Legacy
RUBFaithless Dredge
consider dredging up a loam:
secenario A: you have vengence and an appropriate retrace.
you cast loam for 1G. you get 3 lands back, you cast your retrace (which is likely crime unless there is a kill you next turn/become unmanagable on board) for BBB/RRR and deal 6 damage
totals: 5 mana and they either discard 3, and you split 6 damage or split 9
scenario B: you have seismic.
You cast loam for 1g, and discard 3 lands to it. split 6 damage.
totals: 1g and split 6 damage.
the first scenario can kill in 2 turns, assuming they've played a shockland, but it also assumes you ignore the opponent's hand and or creatures. if you retrace crime 3 times you do get to kill a creature/dome for 6, but you do need the mana and can't play anything else.
in the second, your mana remains free to do several other important things: cast retrace (in which case seismic and vengence do the exact same thing for the same amount of mana), flashback lootings, cast other things in your hand (you will have some). you will need to interact with the board: people will play creatures. luckily, most of the stuff you care about is x/1 , x/2 or tarmogoyf.
(relevant: bob, snapcaster, clique, finks, anything boros, early fish, bloodbraid) Keep your lands in your hand, ready to use until EOT and you're fine.
it's important to note that playing the retrace spells in an assault shell is fine too: this is a loam deck that kills with seismic or creature beats. You don't have a ton of disruption outside crime and inquisition/thoughtseize. the reason crime is amazing is that with a good hand (say 3 land, a crime and a loam) you can strip another deck's hand by t3/t4 assuming they play 1-2 spells and appropriate lands. (crime you on 1, double crime you on 2, 3 more on 3, cast loam and finish on 3 or 4, depending on how much they played). they're also value pitches to lilly and looting: the casting difference (requiring a land in hand) is negligible. Also pitching land to anything grows crusher. having a 7/7 crusher is, well, bigger than tarmogoyf.
there should be space for a one of worm harvest: it's amazing against anything in that you can dredge into it and then simply cast loam and it for the rest of the game and win, assuming you don't run into flying nexii with plates.
3 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Burning Vengeance
2 Damnation
1 Darkblast
4 Faithless Looting
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Life from the Loam
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Nameless Inversion
4 Raven's Crime
1 Worm Harvest
2 Blood Crypt
2 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Mutavault
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Swamp
1 Tectonic Edge
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Combust
1 Darkblast
1 Glissa, the Traitor
1 Jund Charm
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Seal of Doom
1 Seal of Primordium
Cast Haakon and Gravecrawler, getcha? Or too cute?
Ux Whirza
Rb Goblins
Legacy
U Urza Stompy
Duel Commander
Sai, Master Thopterist