Fish? No. Other tribal aggro like Doran or Goblin/RDW? Yes. Aether Vial goblins is actually looking very scary right now.
The funny part is that I don't think these bannings really helped the Gifts control decks at all. They lost a win condition, and zoo didn't really lose it's ability to kill on turn 4. In fact, now Zoo has a better incentive to pack maindeck LD instead of punishing fire/grove.
goblins.... really? how? fish has always been more playable in modern than gobs... gobs tries to do what jund/zoo does and fails, where as fish has a different strategy.
and most of the fast zoo decks as far as i know didn't pack punishing grove; it's too slow. wasn't it just the jund decks really?
Stupid, just plain stupid. You might think I am talking about the bans, but no, I am talking about what wizards thinks we are that we cannot build decks that can deal with a threat like Punishing Fire. Treating us like fragile cry-babies is insulting.
Read the justification. It's not that we can't answer Fire, it's that being forced to answer Fire reduces diversity by making most x/1s and x/2s suck.
But even if we ignore the power issues totally, the combo needed to go because of how it makes games last so much longer (especially now that lots of people are going to be spending time double checking that mana was tapped correctly).
Nacatl is banned. price of Shockland will drop soon.
Goyf can finally survival. He will not ban anymore unless someone still think that zoo is dominant.
Nacatl is banned. price of Shockland will drop soon.
Goyf can finally survival. He will not ban anymore unless someone still think that zoo is dominant.
...?
Shocks (with fetches) are still the best lands in the format. Their value didn't hinge upon the success of Wild Nacatl. If you think that, then don't worry, you still have Kird Ape, Loam Lion, and *gasp* Matca Riders (sweet tech!) to keep Shock prices up!
Oh come on. You are reasonable. Surely you saw what Punishing Fire was doing to the format. There was almost no reason to play it in any deck, it gave balls-to-the-wall aggro stupid amounts of reach, and it absolutely killed diversity in deckbuilding. Not playing Dissipate/Surgical Extraction/some kind of land destruction? Ha, have fun losing.
SO SB them! Isn't that want a SB is for? Dealing with the metagame is part of competitive magic, at least it used to be. Once I started altering my SB for potential PunishingGrove plays, I was not any more bothered by it more than any other powerful synergy. I think I am being more reasonable by not expecting a ban list to do the work of stopping things that threaten my deck.
Also, copy-pasting the same response in all the threads mentioning the updates does not make you look intelligent at all.
Not trying to look intelligent. I am just not going to waste my time saying different posts in the three threads that address the same issue.
or Kird Ape, yes, whilst small, there is a difference in the 1 power... Would you rather have a 3/3 or 2/3? one is a 7 turn clock and the other ten.
Glad Punishing Fire got banned. I think it hurt jund as bad as zoo. They are probably still about even now, although Liliana will have to find a new pitch card.
Read the justification. It's not that we can't answer Fire, it's that being forced to answer Fire reduces diversity by making most x/1s and x/2s suck.
I read it, I just don't agree. The presence of Zoo, which is just as powerful as before and now does not have to worry about PunishingGrove hurting it's creatures, puts as much pressure on all those x/1 and x/2 creatures.
SO SB them! Isn't that want a SB is for? Dealing with the metagame is part of competitive magic, at least it used to be. Once I started altering my SB for potential PunishingGrove plays, I was not any more bothered by it more than any other powerful synergy. I think I am being more reasonable by not expecting a ban list to do the work of stopping things that threaten my deck.
And several of us did! But when a single two-card engine can push entire decks out of the format, something is wrong, especially when that same engine gives a deck unbelievably reliable late game and inevitability that it has no business having (Punishing Zoo).
-4 grove of the burnwillows +4 utility/shocks/basics
-4 punishing fire + 4 Tribal flames
yeah zoo got only slightly worse against aggro, but actually got better against control and combo because tribal flames is 10x better against those decks than punishing fire is.
Also note that bant got worse(or at least the ones that run 2 red shocks) since they don't have a viable replacement for nactl.
Jund also got worse because punishing fires was part of how they beat zoo, and was also pretty vital with liliana which will probably not see any more play.
so overall the best two decks are a little worse against one another, jund is a little worse in general(1-3%), zoo is slight worse against aggro(2-3%) and it is better against control and combo.
Well played wotc, well played. You keep the ignorant masses happy by banning two cards that really don't matter much to zoo all while making its popularity go down ever so slightly for like the 2 weeks it takes the average magic player to realize that the bans did next to nothing. I bet another 100 decided not to play modern just because of these bans.
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Or +4 Steppe Lynx. It basically pushes the 4-color, tempo lists out of the format, though (with Bant Charm, etc.).
Yes! Zoo is so alive and well its not funny. We no longer have to worry about pesky punishing fire burning our creatures. It's the CawBlade banning's all over again!
It was never a question of "we don't want to deal with Punishing Fire" so much as it was just how many different strategies and cards it completely made unusable. It also has issues of causing slow play, so to a degree it deserved the same ban that Sensei's Divining Top received.
i'd guess kird ape, but either way i'd rather see that than nacatl.
I'd assume versions of Zoo that didn't run Steppe Linx now will, and those that already did will run a specific mix of Kird Ape/Loam Lion.
On a random note - I can probably see a drastic increase in the amount of people who use Dark Confidant now that Punishing Fire doesn't make it absolutely horrible.
Shocks (with fetches) are still the best lands in the format. Their value didn't hinge upon the success of Wild Nacatl. If you think that, then don't worry, you still have Kird Ape, Loam Lion, and *gasp* Matca Riders (sweet tech!) to keep Shock prices up!
sorry, but I doubt rioters will replace nacatl. The difference of 3 for a 3/3 or 1 for a 3/3 is huge.
sorry, but I doubt rioters will replace nacatl. The difference of 3 for a 3/3 or 1 for a 3/3 is huge.
Sarcasm...you missed it!
But yeah, Wild Nacatl out, Loam Lion/Kird Ape in, and the Zoo player probably takes a little less damage from trying to get the right lands into play early on.
sorry, but I doubt rioters will replace nacatl. The difference of 3 for a 3/3 or 1 for a 3/3 is huge.
I think he was joking (I hope). I wonder what version will be better... Zoo with snapcaster tribal flames/ steppe lynx, Zoo with kotr/elspeth etc.. or a mix of both.
Punishing Fire was a good ban. The card was most likely too powerful for the format right now. For some reason or another, Wizards think Control is the devil and if it is playable in Modern R&D will be consumed by eternal darkness.
goblins.... really? how? fish has always been more playable in modern than gobs... gobs tries to do what jund/zoo does and fails, where as fish has a different strategy.
and most of the fast zoo decks as far as i know didn't pack punishing grove; it's too slow. wasn't it just the jund decks really?
Read the justification. It's not that we can't answer Fire, it's that being forced to answer Fire reduces diversity by making most x/1s and x/2s suck.
But even if we ignore the power issues totally, the combo needed to go because of how it makes games last so much longer (especially now that lots of people are going to be spending time double checking that mana was tapped correctly).
Practice for Khans of Tarkir Limited:
Draft: (#1) (#2) (#3) (#4) (#5)
almost everyone saw them being banned suprised nothing unbanned in legacy/modren
Goyf can finally survival. He will not ban anymore unless someone still think that zoo is dominant.
... vacant?
As long as Bitterblossom is on the banned list, Faeries won't be a deck; or at least a good one.
If your answer is "No," then your morality does not come from God's commandments.
If your answer is "Yes," then please, please reconsider.
...?
Shocks (with fetches) are still the best lands in the format. Their value didn't hinge upon the success of Wild Nacatl. If you think that, then don't worry, you still have Kird Ape, Loam Lion, and *gasp* Matca Riders (sweet tech!) to keep Shock prices up!
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Or +4 Steppe Lynx. It basically pushes the 4-color, tempo lists out of the format, though (with Bant Charm, etc.).
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Not trying to look intelligent. I am just not going to waste my time saying different posts in the three threads that address the same issue.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Glad Punishing Fire got banned. I think it hurt jund as bad as zoo. They are probably still about even now, although Liliana will have to find a new pitch card.
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i'd guess kird ape, but either way i'd rather see that than nacatl.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
And several of us did! But when a single two-card engine can push entire decks out of the format, something is wrong, especially when that same engine gives a deck unbelievably reliable late game and inevitability that it has no business having (Punishing Zoo).
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
D: What?
-4 grove of the burnwillows +4 utility/shocks/basics
-4 punishing fire + 4 Tribal flames
yeah zoo got only slightly worse against aggro, but actually got better against control and combo because tribal flames is 10x better against those decks than punishing fire is.
Also note that bant got worse(or at least the ones that run 2 red shocks) since they don't have a viable replacement for nactl.
Jund also got worse because punishing fires was part of how they beat zoo, and was also pretty vital with liliana which will probably not see any more play.
so overall the best two decks are a little worse against one another, jund is a little worse in general(1-3%), zoo is slight worse against aggro(2-3%) and it is better against control and combo.
Well played wotc, well played. You keep the ignorant masses happy by banning two cards that really don't matter much to zoo all while making its popularity go down ever so slightly for like the 2 weeks it takes the average magic player to realize that the bans did next to nothing. I bet another 100 decided not to play modern just because of these bans.
Albert Einstein
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Yes! Zoo is so alive and well its not funny. We no longer have to worry about pesky punishing fire burning our creatures. It's the CawBlade banning's all over again!
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=399504
I'd assume versions of Zoo that didn't run Steppe Linx now will, and those that already did will run a specific mix of Kird Ape/Loam Lion.
On a random note - I can probably see a drastic increase in the amount of people who use Dark Confidant now that Punishing Fire doesn't make it absolutely horrible.
No offense to you, your post just made me think of the Sex Pistols song...
sorry, but I doubt rioters will replace nacatl. The difference of 3 for a 3/3 or 1 for a 3/3 is huge.
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Playing:
Death's Shadow Jund
Played:
Kiki Chord, Zoo variants, Goblins, Burn
Sarcasm...you missed it!
But yeah, Wild Nacatl out, Loam Lion/Kird Ape in, and the Zoo player probably takes a little less damage from trying to get the right lands into play early on.
I think he was joking (I hope). I wonder what version will be better... Zoo with snapcaster tribal flames/ steppe lynx, Zoo with kotr/elspeth etc.. or a mix of both.
Thoughts?
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=399504
Lol, it happens.
I meant it made my happy, i guess i will have to use other words next time.
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