Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
I wouldn't hope for anything to come off this list for at least a year. The DCI doesn't like to use unbannings to fix problems, only to change the format. So until they're happy with Modern, cards that go on the list will stay on the list.
I'm going to be in the minority here and say I think they're handling Modern very well. I don't want this to be a "Greatest Hits" format where you just bring in your old Standard/Extended deck and upgrade the cantrips. The fewer auto-includes the format has, the more diverse and interesting it will become.
Wizards obviously has a speed in mind that they would like this format to be, and they are banning to that end.
Zoo and Affinity will still be present of course... but now that Combo has been given a kick in the junk, Control should return to keep the balance.
We'll see. I think Zoo is super strong right now and outside of them banning KotR and Goyf or something like that I'm not sure Control can keep up with that package much less combo.
Do you think if they had unbanned Jace that it would have mattered?
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
Do you think if they had unbanned Jace that it would have mattered?
Yes. With combo weakened and 12-post gone, you can play board control. Jace helps seal up the late-game for something like Grixis, at least until you can cast an ultimatum or Bolas or some other game-bending bomb. He also serves as a midgame draw engine where you have control but will still lose if you start drawing too many lands.
EDIT: Thoughts on the bans. I assumed they would ban either Rite of Flame or cantrips to nerf Storm/Pyromancer/et al. I think they went a little overboard by banning both cantrips in addition, as Preordain is actually a very strong control card. It's absence (along with the lack of Top and Brainstorm in the format) will make it quite difficult for control decks to properly filter their draws early in the game. Zenith is a welcome ban (if unexpected). Few things in the format were more annoying than G/x aggro not having to devote sideboard space to bullets like Teeg and Pridemage, or having 8 copies of Knight of the Reliquary or Doran maindeck.
wow, blue card draw is going to be fairly weak. serum visions is probably the best bet to replace ponder/preordain. not much really competes with those two cards in the format that I know of.
so ponder, preordain, jace, and ancestral visions are all banned in modern.
I'm really not in favor of the GSZ ban, but I understand that it gives decks a bit too much consistency and flexibility in that singletons become threats, etc. The rest of it's not too surprising.
With 12post banned, I am more excited than ever to bring my Modern Soul Sisters deck to the table as soon as I get a chance.
For every deck that's been neutered, another deck has been made viable; it just might take people a while to find them. But I do think the bannings reflect Wizards' overall philosophy with the game -- make it as interactive and skill intensive as possible -- and I have to commend their consistency, if nothing else.
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Love. Forgive. Trust. Be willing to be broken that you may be remade.
Modern was doomed from the start by WoTC's unbelieveable stupidity. =(
It's pretty sad; the format was really great before they started screwing with it. This thing's going the way of new extended, and it's heading there quick
1. Pack 5 Llanowar elves by only using one slot (Dryad Arbor)
2. Pack 5 copies of any silver bullet (Teeg, Pridemage, Trygon Predator, etc.) without using sideboard space
3. Pack functionally 8 copies of Tarmogoyf, Doran, or Knight of the Reliquary
I don't know about anyone else, but I don't enjoy my opponent being able to shut down my deck by preboarding hate that takes up basically no deck space, or being able to play eight Knights.
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Legacy: UBRGW T.E.S. UUUSpiral Tide
Modern: UBR Grixis Control
EDH: UB Oona, Queen of the Fae
Combo is a part of magic. If you cant deal with combo then your not a magic player.
Modern was doomed from the start by WoTC's unbelieveable stupidity. =(
It's pretty sad; the format was really great before they started screwing with it. This thing's going the way of new extended, and it's heading there quick
HOLY DOOM AND GLOOM BATMAN.
People on this forum are seriously overreacting to the bannings. This is a non-rotating format. It is going to have a banlist that is way longer than the ones we are used to in Extended and Standard. It needs to include a lot of cards that are overly synergistic, too powerful, or generally unfun. In these early months, Wizards' correct move is to try and flesh out that banlist as much as possible to restore some semblence of tournament balance to the metagame. If they do not, players are going to be unhappy with the format and eventual tournament attendance will drop.
This banlist update represents a big step by Wizards to listen to their players. Cloudpost and Blazing Shoal were cards that players really wanted to see go. Wizards crunched the data, talked it over, and agreed. We should be overall quite happy that these two cards got banned, and there should basically be no complaining about it.
(NOTE: As a combo player who would have played Infect Shoal in tournaments, I am marginally unhappy about the card's banning. Mostly that is because I want to play the deck, not because it is less powerful. The truth is that the card, and its deck, were fast, resilient, redundant, explosive, and basically every other adjective you do not want to see apply to a combo deck).
Rite of Flame? Ponder? Preordain? These cards represent the nuanced and technical solutions to larger problems. We should be EXTREMELY happy that Wizards erred on the side of banning enablers instead of win conditions. Imagine a banlist that had included Grapeshot, Empty the Warrens, Pyromancer's Ascension, and Splinter Twin. Combo would be in serious trouble, and the amount of complaining would be astronomical. Heck, this would be justified! Wizards COULD have wiped combo out of the tournament scene. Instead, they tried to make it less consistent and less resilient. This means combo players still have their decks and core strategies. We should be thankful that R&D chose such insightful bans as these 3 cards.
The only card that makes little sense is Green Sun's Zenith. R&D has an explanation pending, come Friday, but I imagine that it is not going to divert critics. I will go out and say that this ban is probably an indirect target at Zoo, future ramp decks (using Urzatron), and Melira/Pod builds. It might very well be a mistake. Wizards will, in all likelihood, unban this bad boy within the next 12 months once it becomes clear that it is an unnecessary addition. Given the rest of the banlist, Wizards is allowed this error.
So overall, the sky is not falling. Modern is looking awesome. The banlist shows that Wizards cares about the format and listens to its player. Rejoice!
Here here! But they won't for a long time. Not until they have the meta where they like it. See how they treat Vintage and Legacy if you want to know how they'll handle the Modern Banned List.
Looks like I'll be playing Legacy from now on. I went from playing mostly standard to mostly modern because it WAS a much more fun format. Now they're just going to nerf every deck that gets powerful. I would rather not spend $1,000 every 6 months putting a new tier 1 deck together because Wizards keeps banning every auto-include in the format. They ban cloudpost to stop breachpost because it was keeping control out of the format. Then they ban 2 cards that would be auto includes in any modern control deck and don't unban any good control cards. Way to go Wizards. We now have less fun aggro and combo decks and control will still suck.
I'm aaaaangry, been wanting to play with posts since forever but couldn't in legacy cause of wastelands and the price of the candelabras, now that I could they just destroy the entire archetype.
Modern was doomed from the start by WoTC's unbelieveable stupidity. =(
It's pretty sad; the format was really great before they started screwing with it. This thing's going the way of new extended, and it's heading there quick
You are in the minority of players who want Modern to be completely busted turn 1 wins, matches decided on who wins the die roll. Most who have played that type magic in the past know its no fun in the log run.
I am just happy they are doing something. Its just a step closer to a more balanced format with these bannings. Happy deck building!
Oh, and to those who think 20 ban cards has destroyed the format, theres always Legacy and Vintage for you.
Seriously...it's pretty well established that those two decks are lightning-fast and more or less well-oiled machines in Modern, and now combo, 12post, and control either have been chopped off at the legs or seriously nerfed from the bannings, while aggro has been left relatively untouched. This does open the meta up for new deck archetypes to pop up, but I think the sheer speed of aggro in this format is going to be very tough to overcome.
I'm glad that they are more or less sticking with the intent they set out for Modern. I want the format they said they were trying to create, and if we have to go through a year of aggressive bannings to get there, I am fine with that.
I'm confident that once we do get to that point, we won't need to ban nearly as many cards each time the list is updated. This is the FIRST banlist update after they have actual play data (ComCup doesn't really count due to unified construction rules).
My only gripe would be that if they are willing to go down the road of aggressively banning like this, I see no reason why they didn't just do masques forward and ban a few more cards from those blocks in between masques and mirrodin.
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I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
I cant believe some people are so bitter. Wizards isnt nerfing every deck that gets powerful. They are trying to get the meta into a healthier state with aggro, combo, and control.
This is an ENTIRELY new format and i expect bannings and unbannings to happen more frequently than most, at least for a year or two. Your a fool if you thought otherwise.
Looks like I'll be playing Legacy from now on. I went from playing mostly standard to mostly modern because it WAS a much more fun format. Now they're just going to nerf every deck that gets powerful. I would rather not spend $1,000 every 6 months putting a new tier 1 deck together because Wizards keeps banning every auto-include in the format. They ban cloudpost to stop breachpost because it was keeping control out of the format. Then they ban 2 cards that would be auto includes in any modern control deck and don't unban any good control cards. Way to go Wizards. We now have less fun aggro and combo decks and control will still suck.
Wow, it is really intresting how everyone cries after every new ban list because they see a black future. The most important thing (banning 12post) happened which will allow Control to show up. Ponder/Preordain ban is not that huge because Sleight of Hand/Serum Vision aren't that bad. Rite of flame was expected but I really wondered why they just printed Ifernal Plung in Innistrad. Isn't that a good replacement ?
That whole "sacrifice a creature" as part of the cost is somewhat problematic for pyromancer('s) ascension/swath decks
The "success" of these bannings may hinge on whether or not GR-Tron can apply the same strategy applied in GR-Post...it likely can, but the consistency is way, way down with Tron vs. Post and no access to green sun's zenith.
If you're control, losing ponder/preordain hurts, but I think we can all look back at how wizards was forced to deal with mystical tutor in legacy (i.e. didn't ban entomb, didn't ban tendrils or other ANT pieces...just went after the enabler or card that provided the consistency).
Testing will be interesting, but affinity comes out of this relatively unscathed, though the control and B(x) decks may be format viable...which can totally annihilate affinity if you're able to rip a card. Melira-Pod doesn't feel like it gets hurt at all, either...though, same considerations.
There are two Ban List Discussion Threads. The other is [Discussion] Cards That Should be Banned in Modern.
Banned List Discussion outside of these two threads is Prohibited and will be Infracted!
For reference:
Original Ban List Thread
Previous Current Banned List Discussion
Previous "Should Be Banned" Discussion
9/20 Discussion
Wizards obviously has a speed in mind that they would like this format to be, and they are banning to that end.
Zoo and Affinity will still be present of course... but now that Combo has been given a kick in the junk, Control should return to keep the balance.
Do you think if they had unbanned Jace that it would have mattered?
Yes. With combo weakened and 12-post gone, you can play board control. Jace helps seal up the late-game for something like Grixis, at least until you can cast an ultimatum or Bolas or some other game-bending bomb. He also serves as a midgame draw engine where you have control but will still lose if you start drawing too many lands.
EDIT: Thoughts on the bans. I assumed they would ban either Rite of Flame or cantrips to nerf Storm/Pyromancer/et al. I think they went a little overboard by banning both cantrips in addition, as Preordain is actually a very strong control card. It's absence (along with the lack of Top and Brainstorm in the format) will make it quite difficult for control decks to properly filter their draws early in the game. Zenith is a welcome ban (if unexpected). Few things in the format were more annoying than G/x aggro not having to devote sideboard space to bullets like Teeg and Pridemage, or having 8 copies of Knight of the Reliquary or Doran maindeck.
UBRGW T.E.S.
UUUSpiral Tide
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
EDH:
UB Oona, Queen of the Fae
Combo is a part of magic. If you cant deal with combo then your not a magic player.
so ponder, preordain, jace, and ancestral visions are all banned in modern.
CG
For every deck that's been neutered, another deck has been made viable; it just might take people a while to find them. But I do think the bannings reflect Wizards' overall philosophy with the game -- make it as interactive and skill intensive as possible -- and I have to commend their consistency, if nothing else.
But I couldn't sell my old Blazing Shoals in time. At least they didn't cost me anything.
Their is still Sleight of hand and telling time so what that achieved i'm not quiet sure
Insert witty phrase here
Yeah, I am really glad I held onto my Naya shocks/fetches. Lookin pretty, pretty good.
CG
It's pretty sad; the format was really great before they started screwing with it. This thing's going the way of new extended, and it's heading there quick
Zenith allows aggro to do 3 things:
1. Pack 5 Llanowar elves by only using one slot (Dryad Arbor)
2. Pack 5 copies of any silver bullet (Teeg, Pridemage, Trygon Predator, etc.) without using sideboard space
3. Pack functionally 8 copies of Tarmogoyf, Doran, or Knight of the Reliquary
I don't know about anyone else, but I don't enjoy my opponent being able to shut down my deck by preboarding hate that takes up basically no deck space, or being able to play eight Knights.
UBRGW T.E.S.
UUUSpiral Tide
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
EDH:
UB Oona, Queen of the Fae
Combo is a part of magic. If you cant deal with combo then your not a magic player.
HOLY DOOM AND GLOOM BATMAN.
People on this forum are seriously overreacting to the bannings. This is a non-rotating format. It is going to have a banlist that is way longer than the ones we are used to in Extended and Standard. It needs to include a lot of cards that are overly synergistic, too powerful, or generally unfun. In these early months, Wizards' correct move is to try and flesh out that banlist as much as possible to restore some semblence of tournament balance to the metagame. If they do not, players are going to be unhappy with the format and eventual tournament attendance will drop.
This banlist update represents a big step by Wizards to listen to their players. Cloudpost and Blazing Shoal were cards that players really wanted to see go. Wizards crunched the data, talked it over, and agreed. We should be overall quite happy that these two cards got banned, and there should basically be no complaining about it.
(NOTE: As a combo player who would have played Infect Shoal in tournaments, I am marginally unhappy about the card's banning. Mostly that is because I want to play the deck, not because it is less powerful. The truth is that the card, and its deck, were fast, resilient, redundant, explosive, and basically every other adjective you do not want to see apply to a combo deck).
Rite of Flame? Ponder? Preordain? These cards represent the nuanced and technical solutions to larger problems. We should be EXTREMELY happy that Wizards erred on the side of banning enablers instead of win conditions. Imagine a banlist that had included Grapeshot, Empty the Warrens, Pyromancer's Ascension, and Splinter Twin. Combo would be in serious trouble, and the amount of complaining would be astronomical. Heck, this would be justified! Wizards COULD have wiped combo out of the tournament scene. Instead, they tried to make it less consistent and less resilient. This means combo players still have their decks and core strategies. We should be thankful that R&D chose such insightful bans as these 3 cards.
The only card that makes little sense is Green Sun's Zenith. R&D has an explanation pending, come Friday, but I imagine that it is not going to divert critics. I will go out and say that this ban is probably an indirect target at Zoo, future ramp decks (using Urzatron), and Melira/Pod builds. It might very well be a mistake. Wizards will, in all likelihood, unban this bad boy within the next 12 months once it becomes clear that it is an unnecessary addition. Given the rest of the banlist, Wizards is allowed this error.
So overall, the sky is not falling. Modern is looking awesome. The banlist shows that Wizards cares about the format and listens to its player. Rejoice!
-ktkenshinx-
Here here! But they won't for a long time. Not until they have the meta where they like it. See how they treat Vintage and Legacy if you want to know how they'll handle the Modern Banned List.
You are in the minority of players who want Modern to be completely busted turn 1 wins, matches decided on who wins the die roll. Most who have played that type magic in the past know its no fun in the log run.
I am just happy they are doing something. Its just a step closer to a more balanced format with these bannings. Happy deck building!
Oh, and to those who think 20 ban cards has destroyed the format, theres always Legacy and Vintage for you.
Seriously...it's pretty well established that those two decks are lightning-fast and more or less well-oiled machines in Modern, and now combo, 12post, and control either have been chopped off at the legs or seriously nerfed from the bannings, while aggro has been left relatively untouched. This does open the meta up for new deck archetypes to pop up, but I think the sheer speed of aggro in this format is going to be very tough to overcome.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/2270-im-back-h-legacy-modern-standard-edh-w
Decks:
EDH: Azusa, Gaddock Teeg, Sidisi, Keranos
Do you see UR combo running loads of creatures to sacrifice? There's your answer.
PS: Priest of Urabrask doesn't quite fit.
I'm confident that once we do get to that point, we won't need to ban nearly as many cards each time the list is updated. This is the FIRST banlist update after they have actual play data (ComCup doesn't really count due to unified construction rules).
My only gripe would be that if they are willing to go down the road of aggressively banning like this, I see no reason why they didn't just do masques forward and ban a few more cards from those blocks in between masques and mirrodin.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
This is an ENTIRELY new format and i expect bannings and unbannings to happen more frequently than most, at least for a year or two. Your a fool if you thought otherwise.
Trade Thread
That whole "sacrifice a creature" as part of the cost is somewhat problematic for pyromancer('s) ascension/swath decks
The "success" of these bannings may hinge on whether or not GR-Tron can apply the same strategy applied in GR-Post...it likely can, but the consistency is way, way down with Tron vs. Post and no access to green sun's zenith.
If you're control, losing ponder/preordain hurts, but I think we can all look back at how wizards was forced to deal with mystical tutor in legacy (i.e. didn't ban entomb, didn't ban tendrils or other ANT pieces...just went after the enabler or card that provided the consistency).
Testing will be interesting, but affinity comes out of this relatively unscathed, though the control and B(x) decks may be format viable...which can totally annihilate affinity if you're able to rip a card. Melira-Pod doesn't feel like it gets hurt at all, either...though, same considerations.
Trade/Sell me your Demonic Attorney!