Big Update for this most recent announcement:
Second Sunrise is banned.
Banned List Discussion outside of this thread is Prohibited and will be Infracted!
To summarize Wizards' position, they feel they have banned cards that give decks the ability to either win or be in a controlling position by turn 3.
These cards fall in that list:
Ancient Den
Blazing Shoal
Chrome Mox
Dark Depths
Dread Return
Glimpse of Nature
Golgari Grave-Troll
Great Furnace
Hypergenesis
Seat of the Synod
Sword of the Meek
Tree of Tales
Vault of Whispers
The other main category of cards exist because they make decks too consistant/reliable and thus hamper the deck diversity of the metagame. I think these cards are the best candidates for an unbanning.
Ancestral Vision
Bitterblossom
Cloudpost
Green Sun's Zenith
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Mental Misstep
Ponder
Preordain
Punishing Fire
Rite of Flame
Stoneforge Mystic
Umezawa's Jitte
Then there are cards which wizards currently feels were mistakes or were never really tested in eternal formats.
Skullclamp
I realize Jace/Stoneforge could possibly be here depending on your point of view.
Please keep discussion related to the cards and leave personal attacks at home. Thanks!
The following are PROHIBITED:
- personal attacks including questioning anyone's comprehension or competence. Any post with the word "you" in it is suspect.
- Legacy Discussion. If you want to discuss Legacy the forum below is where you want to be.
- Comparisons of Modern to Standard
- Sarcasm
- Flippant remarks regarding cards or decks being banned or no longer good.
- Pissing on Modern in general or claiming it's death.
- Discussions about what a control deck is, what a midrange deck is, or what an aggro deck is.
- Anything Else that is a violation of the forum rules or the modern forum rules
This is a Discussion thread not a bar or a three ring circus. Please support your arguments.
If combo players had no format to fall back on, I would agree with you. But there are formats where combo is alive and well. If a player is going to quit because they can play combo in one format but not all, then they were looking for a reason to quit in my opinion.
Modern combo has to fall with in the guidelines of the format. If the deck is not with in those guidelines, it will get nerfed. There are plenty of combo decks that fall with in the guidelines of the format.
Combo players have less formats to fall back on now. In fact they really only have 1, as sanctioned Vintage is basically non existent. Combo in standard only exists when Wizards allows it, and Legacy is a format that Wizards rarely supports.
The fact that Wizards, who is actively pushing for Modern to succeed, has decided to alienate these types of players is disconcerting. I'm not the biggest fan of eggs, but storm really was fine for the most part. What's next? The Amulet of Vigor deck? Elves now that it has a glimpse replacement? Grisselbrand Reanimator?
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Combo players have less formats to fall back on now. In fact they really only have 1, as sanctioned Vintage is basically non existent. Combo in standard only exists when Wizards allows it, and Legacy is a format that Wizards rarely supports.
The fact that Wizards, who is actively pushing for Modern to succeed, has decided to alienate these types of players is disconcerting. I'm not the biggest fan of eggs, but storm really was fine for the most part. What's next? The Amulet of Vigor deck? Elves now that it has a glimpse replacement? Grisselbrand Reanimator?
I touched on this in my post on the "Healthy or unhealthy" thread,
eggs was a FAIR combo deck...
This banlist basically alienates Combo and Control players, both only exist either when WotC wants them to in other formats, or they're just a happy accident that get banned (see JTMS and SFM...)
I still for the life of me can't figure out why GGT and Bitterblossom are on there... there are more broken cards in the format than those two...
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I touched on this in my post on the "Healthy or unhealthy" thread,
eggs was a FAIR combo deck...
This banlist basically alienates Combo and Control players, both only exist either when WotC wants them to in other formats, or they're just a happy accident that get banned (see JTMS and SFM...)
I still for the life of me can't figure out why GGT and Bitterblossom are on there... there are more broken cards in the format than those two...
Gonna have to disagree with your bolded statement regarding combo in the format. I cannot emphasize enough that the Eggs banning a) had nothing to do with its power and b) was extremely conservative towards combo. On the first point, the Wizards justification doesn't say a word about Eggs violating any speed (turn 2-3 wins), consistency, resiliency, or other combo-specific reasons for Modern decks. It is solely about the tournament logistics, and that is why Eggs got banned.
More importantly, the Second Sunrise ban was extremely conservative. Wizards could have banned the much more broken offender, Reshape, but it spared it for other decks to use. It could also have banned the mana engine of Lotus Bloom, a card that is very capable of being used fairly. But again, Wizards was conservative and kept the card in the combo arsenal.
Gonna have to disagree with your bolded statement regarding combo in the format. I cannot emphasize enough that the Eggs banning a) had nothing to do with its power and b) was extremely conservative towards combo. On the first point, the Wizards justification doesn't say a word about Eggs violating any speed (turn 2-3 wins), consistency, resiliency, or other combo-specific reasons for Modern decks. It is solely about the tournament logistics, and that is why Eggs got banned.
More importantly, the Second Sunrise ban was extremely conservative. Wizards could have banned the much more broken offender, Reshape, but it spared it for other decks to use. It could also have banned the mana engine of Lotus Bloom, a card that is very capable of being used fairly. But again, Wizards was conservative and kept the card in the combo arsenal.
Did you read my post in the other thread or are you just basing this off of what i said here?
Second sunrise MADE the deck, they could've banned Faith's Reward, and the deck would've been competitive to a point, now it's just not even worth running. 3 mana is better than 4 mana, especially considering Bloom makes the EXACT number of mana needed to cast SS...
I feel like Reward could've been banned and it would've done a lot better job, but instead, they banned the pillar of the deck...
Storm = Banned
Eggs = Banned
What's next? Amulet of Vigor? Great, let's just push out the last 0.01% of combo so our new non-rotating format can be AGGRO ONLY...
I see no logic in doing that, banning things to get attendance isn't the way to go, unbanning things would get MORE people invested in the format, the ability for WotC to say "We were wrong, these cards aren't ban-worthy and actually provide other decks to play in the format to combat the most popular archetype (Aggro)"
Combo and Control need equal representation to the third archetype for true balance.
I get that eggs was banned because of time issues, but still, inexperienced players should'nt have been playing the deck if they needed to go that slow, and the people playing them should've been a little more attentive and said "You're playing slow, speed up or I call a judge."
Experienced players didn't have this problem, it was people wanting to net-deck and didn't truly understand the deck stalling games...
I wholly believe is Faith's Reward were banned instead, the skilled players would keep with the deck and the inexperienced ones would drop the deck and the time issues would've disappeared.
But hey, that's just common sense and logic at work. Net deckers all tend to think if one piece of a combo disappears, the deck dies. The experienced pilots will know that they still have a good probability of success with their deck.
All in all, I'm saying they should've switched Second Sunrise with Faith's Reward...
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I don't get why everyone's saying combo is dead in Modern. My Kiki-Pod deck still works just fine.
Are you so sure? Look again.
Do you see it? Wizards has replaced every copy of Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker on the entire planet with Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded as part of their EVIL MASTER PLAN to DESTROY COMBO, therefore achieving SOMETHING! And if you try to replace it with anything else, they'll shoot you!
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*Insert giant block of annoying garbage that no one cares about but you have to scroll past anyway here*
I'm just glad we got that poll so we as a community know that 2/3 of Modern players agree than the banning of Second Sunrise was a good call on Wizards part.
I'm under the impression that a majority of the chunk of the playerbase that thought the ban was unhealthy were Eggs players or people who had just got around to ordering the cards for their deck. Sucks for them, but there was more than enough discussion about a possible upcoming ban to warrant delaying for the update.
regardless we're gonna start to see that Breakfast at Urza's build (the cries of 'EGGS IS DEAD, EGGS IS DEAD' go unheard by savvy deck brewers) and we have to schedule our washroom breaks for in-between matches now.
I don't get why everyone's saying combo is dead in Modern. My Kiki-Pod deck still works just fine.
And my Scapeshift deck works as well. Different types of combo. We're talking about engine type combos like Storm and Eggs were. Non creature type combo decks.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
I wholly believe is Faith's Reward were banned instead, the skilled players would keep with the deck and the inexperienced ones would drop the deck and the time issues would've disappeared.
There's two viable lists right now that can combo off on the same turn as it could before. The deck just loses a little bit of it's protections, but optimizing the deck can probably put those back in. Check the forum and you'll see the lists (my list works very well though it still needs polished, then there's the Breakfast at Urza's list which seems to be quite popular going by thread views). The reason I think they banned Second Sunrise over Faith's Reward is that Faith's Reward is a newer card and M13 packs are still on sale. They didn't want to ban the in print card. As much as I disagree with the ban, between the two cards I think they made the better choice given that reason.
The thing is though, if someone wants to, they can still play eggs and have it be viable. The time issues are still there, actually the deck is a little harder to play now so the time issues are exasperated. And it just comes back to the point that trying to control time issues through banning isn't going to work. They're going to print more time issue cards in the future and time issues exist cross format.
Instead they need to address this problem in the rules of the game. Put a limit on how long turns can go and these issues completely disappear. The best thing Wizards could do right now is to print finishers for slow decks that speed things up when they get to the point that they're already winning and put a hard cap on how long 5 turns can go (10 minutes seems fair). Judges already watch games in overtime, they can be vigilant about slow play to prevent people from just running the timer down.
Do you see it? Wizards has replaced every copy of Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker on the entire planet with Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded as part of their EVIL MASTER PLAN to DESTROY COMBO, therefore achieving SOMETHING! And if you try to replace it with anything else, they'll shoot you!
Just checked. They're still Kikis. Nice try though.
It's not that Wizards is saying "No" to combo decks, it's that they're saying "No" to uninteractive combo decks, and I for one think that's good for the game.
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"The imagination is not a State: it is the Human existence itself." - William Blake
How do you guys see the chance that somethinh from pod or tron gets banned? Especially if you consider Voice of Resurgence and the decimation of engine combo decks.
We will have to see if they go outside the guidelines of the format in the next few months. I dont see it, but it could happen.
Quote from Plaguefather »
Combo players have less formats to fall back on now. In fact they really only have 1, as sanctioned Vintage is basically non existent. Combo in standard only exists when Wizards allows it, and Legacy is a format that Wizards rarely supports.
The fact that Wizards, who is actively pushing for Modern to succeed, has decided to alienate these types of players is disconcerting. I'm not the biggest fan of eggs, but storm really was fine for the most part. What's next? The Amulet of Vigor deck? Elves now that it has a glimpse replacement? Grisselbrand Reanimator?
Again, if the combo doesnt fall with in the guidelines of the format, it should not be allowed in said format. If someone is playing a combo that is breaking those guidelines, you should expect something done about your deck. You shouldnt expect the whole format/game to adjust to your deck just so you can play it.
That being said, I agree eggs was a fair deck, but thats not why it was banned. It was banned for time reasons. When large events are running hours over because eggs players are going over time in the early rounds, Wotc had to do something about it for the LGS/TO and judges. This ban had nothing to do with fair or unfair, over powered or dominant.
Quote from germanturkey »
do you forget who you talk to and just repeat whatever you want to repeat?
the point of a non-rotating format is that you don't have to switch decks every few months. the point of modern is so the cards that rotate out of standard are not obsolete in a shoebox somewhere. the point of modern is to keep the players who have been playing standard for the last few years in the game if they don't want to keep dropping money on decks. that is the appeal of a non-rotating format. there is no appeal to a non-rotating format that forces you to switch decks every few months by an artificial means.
Just because thats how it worked for Legacy, does not mean thats how its going to work with Modern. Yes is may upset some, but time will tell how many will really be pushed away from the format by it.
Again, if you are playing a deck that doesnt fall with in the guidelines of the format, expect Wotc to do something about it.
Based on attendance numbers from the last 2 PTQ seasons, I expect a 1-5% drop off in attendance immediately at local Modern tournaments, due to a minority of combo players who will quit instead of switching to a Kiki-Jiki deck or one of the other combos.
However, while I don't think we'll see another 50-100% increase in attendance in 2014 like we did this year, a modest 25-40% increase is likely. I'm being bearish here, because I don't know how many people were holding out on this format when there were all of the "boogeymen" decks around (Jund, Eggs, etc.) I think 25% is a reasonable outlook for natural growth of this format.
Once everyone gets their staples and locks into a few decks I expect attendance increases to slow down. Regardless, its looking good for Modern
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You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
I think that the banning of Second Sunrise for logistic reasons, a la Sensei's Divining Top was a good call, even though Modern loses a reasonably fair Combo deck. I think that if there were a way for people to use chess clocks while playing Magic in a physical event, then Combo decks that take 10-15 minutes to combo off would be seen as more reasonable to any format.
The only problematic parts of the chess clock solution is that it's a little bit crude with priority passing, as well as being unreasonable for large tournaments to buy 500+ chess clocks to keep time.
EDIT: Halting time due to shuffling or to Judge calls is also problematic as well. I could forsee a 20 minute per person clock, with the 50 minute round time allowing for shuffling for each player's deck as well.
Based on attendance numbers from the last 2 PTQ seasons, I expect a 1-5% drop off in attendance immediately at local Modern tournaments, due to a minority of combo players who will quit instead of switching to a Kiki-Jiki deck or one of the other combos.
However, while I don't think we'll see another 50-100% increase in attendance in 2014 like we did this year, a modest 25-40% increase is likely. I'm being bearish here, because I don't know how many people were holding out on this format when there were all of the "boogeymen" decks around (Jund, Eggs, etc.) I think 25% is a reasonable outlook for natural growth of this format.
Once everyone gets their staples and locks into a few decks I expect attendance increases to slow down. Regardless, its looking good for Modern
Was eggs really considered a 'boogeyman' in the format? (Honest question.)
Most of the complaints i've see were that an inexperienced player or someone that may get some bad draws takes awhile to combo out. I don't think of that as being particularly 'bad' (at least, not as bad as being windmill slamdunked by a T4 BBE)
Based on attendance numbers from the last 2 PTQ seasons, I expect a 1-5% drop off in attendance immediately at local Modern tournaments, due to a minority of combo players who will quit instead of switching to a Kiki-Jiki deck or one of the other combos.
However, while I don't think we'll see another 50-100% increase in attendance in 2014 like we did this year, a modest 25-40% increase is likely. I'm being bearish here, because I don't know how many people were holding out on this format when there were all of the "boogeymen" decks around (Jund, Eggs, etc.) I think 25% is a reasonable outlook for natural growth of this format.
Once everyone gets their staples and locks into a few decks I expect attendance increases to slow down. Regardless, its looking good for Modern
1-5% of local tournaments is like half a person. interest has dropped significantly since the season ended, and events haven't been firing the last couple of weeks. not to mention several people had decks banned from under them and haven't bothered to pick up new decks.
on a slightly related note, i know most people probably won't bother picking up kiki-jikis, since a playset costs as much as an entire storm or eggs deck (minus the mana base).
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
I think they'll pick up Kiki-Jikis before they pick up Tarmogoyfs. A playset of Kikis is roughly the same value as one Goyf at the moment.
Fargsby: Some people considered it that way. I didn't care about the deck's play because it could be attacked from the sideboard, but the time issue was definitely annoying. I would have prefered to see Eggs completely nerfed and Storm still around.
For local tournaments things are going to depend more on the particular group of players than anything about the formats. Some groups will have duals and gravitate towards Legacy. Some groups only have new cards and will play casual/Draft/Standard. Then there will be groups of people with a bunch of extra Time Spiral and Lorwyn cards lying around that they'd like to play again. There's your Modern group. There should be increased demand for local Modern events when Modern Masters releases, IF it is available and not another Commander's Arsenal or FTV type deal. This is more of a GP/PTQ format anyway, kind of like how Block used to be.
I'm a competitive player, so I have it all. I assume I am in the minority when it comes to availability.
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You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
I'm a competitive player, so I have it all. I assume I am in the minority when it comes to availability.
Ironically I was going to pick up two more kiki jiki's so I could play them in a 2nd and 3rd edh deck. Unfortunately the impending Kiki ban makes me hesitant to do so.
As for the attendance trends we no longer have modern events Friday or Saturday as five of eleven people dropped out now that it's out of season. Last time extended rolled around the same trend seemed to happen. I'm not saying it's a dead/dying format I'm saying it'll be relegated to large stages only as it isn't in season. Which unless I'm mistaken is bad for the format.
Nothing is going to get unbanned and something will get banned (Be it Kiki Jiki or geist, SCM, or Clique)
@bocephus, I didn't say that part that you quoted me on, that was another user, maybe you should use the multi-quote system for accuracy?
Or maybe I had a point and there's no easy retort for it other than "Faiths reward was printed only a year ago and even though Second Sunrise is likely to be in Modern Masters, we're going to ban it and anger a lot of people that will open dead cards"
Either way, i'm done with this format, If I can basically lock out or even stomp on a Combo deck and win by turn 2-3, it's not interesting.
turning creatures sideways isn't that fun... and Aggro is the LEAST interactive deck imaginable! It's like playing solitaire.
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Ironically I was going to pick up two more kiki jiki's so I could play them in a 2nd and 3rd edh deck. Unfortunately the impending Kiki ban makes me hesitant to do so.
Nothing is going to get unbanned and something will get banned (Be it Kiki Jiki or geist, SCM, or Clique)
Holy hyperbole Batman!
We can't know with certainty what Wizards' plans are with the format, and we can't know with certainty what cards are going to get banned and unbanned. But based on the past bannings in this format, it is safe to say that a Kiki/Karn/Emrakul/Pod are almost assuredly not getting banned. That is also to say, Wizards is not going to ban any more combo cards in the near future.
When it comes to Modern combo cards, Wizards has tried to be as conservative as possible in its bans. We see this in every round of banning that came with Modern, and there is no reason to suggest that it will stop. The trick is not to focus on what WAS banned. It is to focus on what COULD have been banned instead.
Let's just take a look at some quotes around the bannings. I will give the ban itself, the justification from Wizards, and the other cards that could have been banned around it to truly squash combo decks. Some cards on the list were truly broken never deserve to even be around in Modern: Dark Depths, Hypergenesis, Dread Return, Blazing Shoal, Cloudpost, Chrome Mox, Glimpse of Nature. I won't even mention those offenders.
In every case below, notice Wizards' language around the ban. They consistently take the conservative approach to try and keep the deck playable and alive!
Banned: Golgari Grave-Troll Quote: "Therefore, it seemed like the best place to attack the deck. You can still play Dredge, but you'll be dredging a little bit slower, and you'll have to play real targets to reanimate instead of getting Golgari Grave-Troll for free." Could have banned: Bridge from Below and Narcomoeba.
Banned: Ponder and Preordain Banned: Rite of Flame Quote: "A large number of blue-red combination decks kept the field less diverse. One thing that made them so efficient was the cards that would find their combinations. Ponder and Preordain were the most widely used of those cards. Banning these should make those combination decks somewhat less efficient without removing the possibility of playing them." Could have banned: Grapeshot, Empty the Warrens, Pyromancer's Ascension, Splinter Twin, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Banned: Second Sunrise Quote: "The DCI considered which card to ban to deal with this issue. We decided to try and do the narrowest possible ban: one that would reduce the chance of such long turns without banning a card used in other decks. That is why Second Sunrise is banned in Modern." Could have banned: Lotus Bloom, Faith's Reward, Reshape
In all of these cases, Wizards took a conservative and narrow approach to the bans. They could have utterly killed some of these decks, but decided to only ban certain offensive pieces instead. Unless Wizards has an unprecedented and unsignaled shift in its banning behavior, we can reasonable expect this of future announcements.
Also, I acknowledge an oddity around the GGT ban. GGT was never the broken card in Dredge. It was DR. As such, the justification for banning GGT fell apart once DR got added. But that said, I am highly confident that GGT will come off that list in September.
@bocephus, I didn't say that part that you quoted me on, that was another user, maybe you should use the multi-quote system for accuracy?
Or maybe I had a point and there's no easy retort for it other than "Faiths reward was printed only a year ago and even though Second Sunrise is likely to be in Modern Masters, we're going to ban it and anger a lot of people that will open dead cards"
Either way, i'm done with this format, If I can basically lock out or even stomp on a Combo deck and win by turn 2-3, it's not interesting.
turning creatures sideways isn't that fun... and Aggro is the LEAST interactive deck imaginable! It's like playing solitaire.
It was from one of the other threads that got locked.
As for your turn 2-3 claim, I am guessing a turn 4 format like Modern wouldnt be for you if thats what you want. You do understand MOdern is a turn 4 format, and thats for all decks, not just certain ones.
Eggs was playing solitaire at its finest. If you believe eggs was interactive, then you and I have a difference of opinion of what is interactive.
Lastly, I hope you enjoy what ever format you chose to play.
Quote from undone »
The next banned list update will be as follows
Modern
Kiki Jiki Mirror breaker
This card was the crux of too many combo decks and simply won the game on the spot we had to ban it so that aggro has a chance.
Except pod decks do not break the turn 4 rule or any logistics already set forth. I dont see how Kiki breaks any of the guidelines of the format.
EDIT: The bannings will continue until attendance improves.
When there is record setting attendance in Las Vegas, dont expect Wotc to change their ways. The masses will have spoken.
Big Update for this most recent announcement:
Second Sunrise is banned.
Banned List Discussion outside of this thread is Prohibited and will be Infracted!
To summarize Wizards' position, they feel they have banned cards that give decks the ability to either win or be in a controlling position by turn 3.
These cards fall in that list:
Ancient Den
Blazing Shoal
Chrome Mox
Dark Depths
Dread Return
Glimpse of Nature
Golgari Grave-Troll
Great Furnace
Hypergenesis
Seat of the Synod
Sword of the Meek
Tree of Tales
Vault of Whispers
The other main category of cards exist because they make decks too consistant/reliable and thus hamper the deck diversity of the metagame. I think these cards are the best candidates for an unbanning.
Ancestral Vision
Bitterblossom
Cloudpost
Green Sun's Zenith
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Mental Misstep
Ponder
Preordain
Punishing Fire
Rite of Flame
Stoneforge Mystic
Umezawa's Jitte
Then there are cards which wizards currently feels were mistakes or were never really tested in eternal formats.
Skullclamp
I realize Jace/Stoneforge could possibly be here depending on your point of view.
Made games last too long:
Sensei's Divining Top
Second Sunrise
Community Cup Announcement with the Initial Ban List.
1st Banned List change with explanations
2nd Banned List change with explanations
3rd Banned List change with explanations
Removal of Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
Addition of Bloodbraid Elf and Seething Song
Addition of Second Sunrise
Old threads:
4/22/13
9/20/12 and 6/20/12
Please keep discussion related to the cards and leave personal attacks at home. Thanks!
The following are PROHIBITED:
- personal attacks including questioning anyone's comprehension or competence. Any post with the word "you" in it is suspect.
- Legacy Discussion. If you want to discuss Legacy the forum below is where you want to be.
- Comparisons of Modern to Standard
- Sarcasm
- Flippant remarks regarding cards or decks being banned or no longer good.
- Pissing on Modern in general or claiming it's death.
- Discussions about what a control deck is, what a midrange deck is, or what an aggro deck is.
- Anything Else that is a violation of the forum rules or the modern forum rules
This is a Discussion thread not a bar or a three ring circus. Please support your arguments.
Combo players have less formats to fall back on now. In fact they really only have 1, as sanctioned Vintage is basically non existent. Combo in standard only exists when Wizards allows it, and Legacy is a format that Wizards rarely supports.
The fact that Wizards, who is actively pushing for Modern to succeed, has decided to alienate these types of players is disconcerting. I'm not the biggest fan of eggs, but storm really was fine for the most part. What's next? The Amulet of Vigor deck? Elves now that it has a glimpse replacement? Grisselbrand Reanimator?
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
I touched on this in my post on the "Healthy or unhealthy" thread,
eggs was a FAIR combo deck...
This banlist basically alienates Combo and Control players, both only exist either when WotC wants them to in other formats, or they're just a happy accident that get banned (see JTMS and SFM...)
I still for the life of me can't figure out why GGT and Bitterblossom are on there... there are more broken cards in the format than those two...
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One of the criteria for banning was [is] "Was it's own deck once."
Gonna have to disagree with your bolded statement regarding combo in the format. I cannot emphasize enough that the Eggs banning a) had nothing to do with its power and b) was extremely conservative towards combo. On the first point, the Wizards justification doesn't say a word about Eggs violating any speed (turn 2-3 wins), consistency, resiliency, or other combo-specific reasons for Modern decks. It is solely about the tournament logistics, and that is why Eggs got banned.
More importantly, the Second Sunrise ban was extremely conservative. Wizards could have banned the much more broken offender, Reshape, but it spared it for other decks to use. It could also have banned the mana engine of Lotus Bloom, a card that is very capable of being used fairly. But again, Wizards was conservative and kept the card in the combo arsenal.
Did you read my post in the other thread or are you just basing this off of what i said here?
Second sunrise MADE the deck, they could've banned Faith's Reward, and the deck would've been competitive to a point, now it's just not even worth running. 3 mana is better than 4 mana, especially considering Bloom makes the EXACT number of mana needed to cast SS...
I feel like Reward could've been banned and it would've done a lot better job, but instead, they banned the pillar of the deck...
Storm = Banned
Eggs = Banned
What's next? Amulet of Vigor? Great, let's just push out the last 0.01% of combo so our new non-rotating format can be AGGRO ONLY...
I see no logic in doing that, banning things to get attendance isn't the way to go, unbanning things would get MORE people invested in the format, the ability for WotC to say "We were wrong, these cards aren't ban-worthy and actually provide other decks to play in the format to combat the most popular archetype (Aggro)"
Combo and Control need equal representation to the third archetype for true balance.
I get that eggs was banned because of time issues, but still, inexperienced players should'nt have been playing the deck if they needed to go that slow, and the people playing them should've been a little more attentive and said "You're playing slow, speed up or I call a judge."
Experienced players didn't have this problem, it was people wanting to net-deck and didn't truly understand the deck stalling games...
I wholly believe is Faith's Reward were banned instead, the skilled players would keep with the deck and the inexperienced ones would drop the deck and the time issues would've disappeared.
But hey, that's just common sense and logic at work. Net deckers all tend to think if one piece of a combo disappears, the deck dies. The experienced pilots will know that they still have a good probability of success with their deck.
All in all, I'm saying they should've switched Second Sunrise with Faith's Reward...
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"Stoned players can't attack, block, or play spells or abilities."
Are you so sure? Look again.
Do you see it? Wizards has replaced every copy of Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker on the entire planet with Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded as part of their EVIL MASTER PLAN to DESTROY COMBO, therefore achieving SOMETHING! And if you try to replace it with anything else, they'll shoot you!
I'm under the impression that a majority of the chunk of the playerbase that thought the ban was unhealthy were Eggs players or people who had just got around to ordering the cards for their deck. Sucks for them, but there was more than enough discussion about a possible upcoming ban to warrant delaying for the update.
regardless we're gonna start to see that Breakfast at Urza's build (the cries of 'EGGS IS DEAD, EGGS IS DEAD' go unheard by savvy deck brewers) and we have to schedule our washroom breaks for in-between matches now.
And my Scapeshift deck works as well. Different types of combo. We're talking about engine type combos like Storm and Eggs were. Non creature type combo decks.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
There's two viable lists right now that can combo off on the same turn as it could before. The deck just loses a little bit of it's protections, but optimizing the deck can probably put those back in. Check the forum and you'll see the lists (my list works very well though it still needs polished, then there's the Breakfast at Urza's list which seems to be quite popular going by thread views). The reason I think they banned Second Sunrise over Faith's Reward is that Faith's Reward is a newer card and M13 packs are still on sale. They didn't want to ban the in print card. As much as I disagree with the ban, between the two cards I think they made the better choice given that reason.
The thing is though, if someone wants to, they can still play eggs and have it be viable. The time issues are still there, actually the deck is a little harder to play now so the time issues are exasperated. And it just comes back to the point that trying to control time issues through banning isn't going to work. They're going to print more time issue cards in the future and time issues exist cross format.
Instead they need to address this problem in the rules of the game. Put a limit on how long turns can go and these issues completely disappear. The best thing Wizards could do right now is to print finishers for slow decks that speed things up when they get to the point that they're already winning and put a hard cap on how long 5 turns can go (10 minutes seems fair). Judges already watch games in overtime, they can be vigilant about slow play to prevent people from just running the timer down.
It's not that Wizards is saying "No" to combo decks, it's that they're saying "No" to uninteractive combo decks, and I for one think that's good for the game.
"Stoned players can't attack, block, or play spells or abilities."
We will have to see if they go outside the guidelines of the format in the next few months. I dont see it, but it could happen.
Again, if the combo doesnt fall with in the guidelines of the format, it should not be allowed in said format. If someone is playing a combo that is breaking those guidelines, you should expect something done about your deck. You shouldnt expect the whole format/game to adjust to your deck just so you can play it.
That being said, I agree eggs was a fair deck, but thats not why it was banned. It was banned for time reasons. When large events are running hours over because eggs players are going over time in the early rounds, Wotc had to do something about it for the LGS/TO and judges. This ban had nothing to do with fair or unfair, over powered or dominant.
Just because thats how it worked for Legacy, does not mean thats how its going to work with Modern. Yes is may upset some, but time will tell how many will really be pushed away from the format by it.
Again, if you are playing a deck that doesnt fall with in the guidelines of the format, expect Wotc to do something about it.
However, while I don't think we'll see another 50-100% increase in attendance in 2014 like we did this year, a modest 25-40% increase is likely. I'm being bearish here, because I don't know how many people were holding out on this format when there were all of the "boogeymen" decks around (Jund, Eggs, etc.) I think 25% is a reasonable outlook for natural growth of this format.
Once everyone gets their staples and locks into a few decks I expect attendance increases to slow down. Regardless, its looking good for Modern
~ Brian DeMars
Modern
Kiki Jiki Mirror breaker
This card was the crux of too many combo decks and simply won the game on the spot we had to ban it so that aggro has a chance.
EDIT: The bannings will continue until attendance improves.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
The only problematic parts of the chess clock solution is that it's a little bit crude with priority passing, as well as being unreasonable for large tournaments to buy 500+ chess clocks to keep time.
EDIT: Halting time due to shuffling or to Judge calls is also problematic as well. I could forsee a 20 minute per person clock, with the 50 minute round time allowing for shuffling for each player's deck as well.
an unnatural love towardsperfectly reasonable respect for Lightning Bolt.The Kiwi third of The Salt Mine Podcast: An Australian Legacy Podcast
Was eggs really considered a 'boogeyman' in the format? (Honest question.)
Most of the complaints i've see were that an inexperienced player or someone that may get some bad draws takes awhile to combo out. I don't think of that as being particularly 'bad' (at least, not as bad as being windmill slamdunked by a T4 BBE)
Sig courtesy of DOLZero
1-5% of local tournaments is like half a person. interest has dropped significantly since the season ended, and events haven't been firing the last couple of weeks. not to mention several people had decks banned from under them and haven't bothered to pick up new decks.
on a slightly related note, i know most people probably won't bother picking up kiki-jikis, since a playset costs as much as an entire storm or eggs deck (minus the mana base).
Fargsby: Some people considered it that way. I didn't care about the deck's play because it could be attacked from the sideboard, but the time issue was definitely annoying. I would have prefered to see Eggs completely nerfed and Storm still around.
For local tournaments things are going to depend more on the particular group of players than anything about the formats. Some groups will have duals and gravitate towards Legacy. Some groups only have new cards and will play casual/Draft/Standard. Then there will be groups of people with a bunch of extra Time Spiral and Lorwyn cards lying around that they'd like to play again. There's your Modern group. There should be increased demand for local Modern events when Modern Masters releases, IF it is available and not another Commander's Arsenal or FTV type deal. This is more of a GP/PTQ format anyway, kind of like how Block used to be.
I'm a competitive player, so I have it all. I assume I am in the minority when it comes to availability.
~ Brian DeMars
Ironically I was going to pick up two more kiki jiki's so I could play them in a 2nd and 3rd edh deck. Unfortunately the impending Kiki ban makes me hesitant to do so.
As for the attendance trends we no longer have modern events Friday or Saturday as five of eleven people dropped out now that it's out of season. Last time extended rolled around the same trend seemed to happen. I'm not saying it's a dead/dying format I'm saying it'll be relegated to large stages only as it isn't in season. Which unless I'm mistaken is bad for the format.
Nothing is going to get unbanned and something will get banned (Be it Kiki Jiki or geist, SCM, or Clique)
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
Or maybe I had a point and there's no easy retort for it other than "Faiths reward was printed only a year ago and even though Second Sunrise is likely to be in Modern Masters, we're going to ban it and anger a lot of people that will open dead cards"
Either way, i'm done with this format, If I can basically lock out or even stomp on a Combo deck and win by turn 2-3, it's not interesting.
turning creatures sideways isn't that fun... and Aggro is the LEAST interactive deck imaginable! It's like playing solitaire.
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Holy hyperbole Batman!
We can't know with certainty what Wizards' plans are with the format, and we can't know with certainty what cards are going to get banned and unbanned. But based on the past bannings in this format, it is safe to say that a Kiki/Karn/Emrakul/Pod are almost assuredly not getting banned. That is also to say, Wizards is not going to ban any more combo cards in the near future.
When it comes to Modern combo cards, Wizards has tried to be as conservative as possible in its bans. We see this in every round of banning that came with Modern, and there is no reason to suggest that it will stop. The trick is not to focus on what WAS banned. It is to focus on what COULD have been banned instead.
Let's just take a look at some quotes around the bannings. I will give the ban itself, the justification from Wizards, and the other cards that could have been banned around it to truly squash combo decks. Some cards on the list were truly broken never deserve to even be around in Modern: Dark Depths, Hypergenesis, Dread Return, Blazing Shoal, Cloudpost, Chrome Mox, Glimpse of Nature. I won't even mention those offenders.
In every case below, notice Wizards' language around the ban. They consistently take the conservative approach to try and keep the deck playable and alive!
Banned: Golgari Grave-Troll
Quote: "Therefore, it seemed like the best place to attack the deck. You can still play Dredge, but you'll be dredging a little bit slower, and you'll have to play real targets to reanimate instead of getting Golgari Grave-Troll for free."
Could have banned: Bridge from Below and Narcomoeba.
Banned: Ponder and Preordain
Banned: Rite of Flame
Quote: "A large number of blue-red combination decks kept the field less diverse. One thing that made them so efficient was the cards that would find their combinations. Ponder and Preordain were the most widely used of those cards. Banning these should make those combination decks somewhat less efficient without removing the possibility of playing them."
Could have banned: Grapeshot, Empty the Warrens, Pyromancer's Ascension, Splinter Twin, Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
Banned: Seething Song
Quote: "The DCI looked for a card that was very important to the turn-three wins but not one of the cards that make this deck unique. We decided Seething Song is the best choice."
Could have banned: Past in Flames, Through the Breach, Grapeshot, Empty the Warrens, Pyromancer's Ascension
Banned: Second Sunrise
Quote: "The DCI considered which card to ban to deal with this issue. We decided to try and do the narrowest possible ban: one that would reduce the chance of such long turns without banning a card used in other decks. That is why Second Sunrise is banned in Modern."
Could have banned: Lotus Bloom, Faith's Reward, Reshape
In all of these cases, Wizards took a conservative and narrow approach to the bans. They could have utterly killed some of these decks, but decided to only ban certain offensive pieces instead. Unless Wizards has an unprecedented and unsignaled shift in its banning behavior, we can reasonable expect this of future announcements.
Also, I acknowledge an oddity around the GGT ban. GGT was never the broken card in Dredge. It was DR. As such, the justification for banning GGT fell apart once DR got added. But that said, I am highly confident that GGT will come off that list in September.
It was from one of the other threads that got locked.
As for your turn 2-3 claim, I am guessing a turn 4 format like Modern wouldnt be for you if thats what you want. You do understand MOdern is a turn 4 format, and thats for all decks, not just certain ones.
Eggs was playing solitaire at its finest. If you believe eggs was interactive, then you and I have a difference of opinion of what is interactive.
Lastly, I hope you enjoy what ever format you chose to play.
Except pod decks do not break the turn 4 rule or any logistics already set forth. I dont see how Kiki breaks any of the guidelines of the format.
When there is record setting attendance in Las Vegas, dont expect Wotc to change their ways. The masses will have spoken.