Yup. Exactly what I was talking about. At least in Modern there are still viable cheap decks like RDW, Mono White Hatebears, UR Storm (except for scalding tarn).
I suppose it depends on your meta, but I always find that comments like these are more often repetition of things others have said rather than reality. RDW can win in some metas with a bit more luck than usual, but it is only barely viable much of the time and for most players who have played the game longer than six months it is mind-numbingly dull to play. I am not sure what you mean by Mono White Hatebears, but as a long time Modern D&T player I can tell you that it that it is not exactly "cheap". Compared to other decks it could be considered cheap, and does not have to deal with fetch prices, but for a lot of people it is still a chunk of change. The cheapest deck that I can see maybe doing well with some room for tweaking for your meta is probably GU Infect with a budget (but still viable) manabase.
I'm not saying you're wrong that there are viable budget decks for newer players to Modern, just that I disagree with your examples.
Where I do disagree with you is your advice to buy cheap staples now if you want to play Modern. Sure, I started slowly acquired my collection over the last dozen years, and I think that it is always a good idea to look out for cards that will be on the rise in the future, but it is not an answer to the problem. Telling someone who looks at Modern and says to themselves "wow, that format looks really fun and will push my game to new levels", that the answer is to buy some cards now and maybe in two years they can actually play is a bit hollow. That is fine if the person just started playing the game, but if they have been in the game for a year or more they should be able to expect the inroads to new parts of the game to inspire more optimism. At the very least it seems like terrible business to impose that kind of effective financial waiting period in order to keep playing the game in the way the customer wants to play it.
Now, as I said I do think that there are other ways to enjoy the format in a less "all in" way, I just think that "save your pennies and come back in two years" is a terrible answer- especially if the ceiling on card values keeps increasing.
When I think of Modern, I don't think of Modern in a vacuum. I think of Magic the Gathering in general. If it were that easy to get into Modern, then do you honestly think that there will still be Standard and Limited players? We should also consider those formats because Modern is the youngest format and I don't think Wizards will forsake Standard just to please people wanting to play Modern. They promised that Modern will be more accessible than Legacy, that is a promise they intend to keep and have done a good job so far (GP Richmond is the largest constructed GP). What they don't promise is for Modern to be more accessible than Standard. Standard is there for any player that wanted to start playing Magic and for returning players that don't have any staples. Modern is for returning players that have some staples and for players planning to lay low from Standard. The price hike we are seeing now is already the effect of Wizards success in promoting Modern. These prices did not sky rocket overnight. These price hike is a result of a lot of people wanting to play Modern. Wizards is already successful in making Modern a non rotating format that they can support with reprints, which I think that they will do. Wizards will not print fetchlands overnight just because it's out or reach in terms of price. What they will do is carefully plan on a reprint. They will not print cards for Modern the same way that they print cards for Standard. They have to slowly add reprints into circulation so that it will not be as easy as entering Standard.
Yup. Exactly what I was talking about. At least in Modern there are still viable cheap decks like RDW, Mono White Hatebears, UR Storm (except for scalding tarn).
I suppose it depends on your meta, but I always find that comments like these are more often repetition of things others have said rather than reality. RDW can win in some metas with a bit more luck than usual, but it is only barely viable much of the time and for most players who have played the game longer than six months it is mind-numbingly dull to play. I am not sure what you mean by Mono White Hatebears, but as a long time Modern D&T player I can tell you that it that it is not exactly "cheap". Compared to other decks it could be considered cheap, and does not have to deal with fetch prices, but for a lot of people it is still a chunk of change. The cheapest deck that I can see maybe doing well with some room for tweaking for your meta is probably GU Infect with a budget (but still viable) manabase.
I'm not saying you're wrong that there are viable budget decks for newer players to Modern, just that I disagree with your examples.
Where I do disagree with you is your advice to buy cheap staples now if you want to play Modern. Sure, I started slowly acquired my collection over the last dozen years, and I think that it is always a good idea to look out for cards that will be on the rise in the future, but it is not an answer to the problem. Telling someone who looks at Modern and says to themselves "wow, that format looks really fun and will push my game to new levels", that the answer is to buy some cards now and maybe in two years they can actually play is a bit hollow. That is fine if the person just started playing the game, but if they have been in the game for a year or more they should be able to expect the inroads to new parts of the game to inspire more optimism. At the very least it seems like terrible business to impose that kind of effective financial waiting period in order to keep playing the game in the way the customer wants to play it.
Now, as I said I do think that there are other ways to enjoy the format in a less "all in" way, I just think that "save your pennies and come back in two years" is a terrible answer- especially if the ceiling on card values keeps increasing.
When I think of Modern, I don't think of Modern in a vacuum. I think of Magic the Gathering in general. If it were that easy to get into Modern, then do you honestly think that there will still be Standard and Limited players? We should also consider those formats because Modern is the youngest format and I don't think Wizards will forsake Standard just to please people wanting to play Modern. They promised that Modern will be more accessible than Legacy, that is a promise they intend to keep and have done a good job so far (GP Richmond is the largest constructed GP). What they don't promise is for Modern to be more accessible than Standard. Standard is there for any player that wanted to start playing Magic and for returning players that don't have any staples. Modern is for returning players that have some staples and for players planning to lay low from Standard. The price hike we are seeing now is already the effect of Wizards success in promoting Modern. These prices did not sky rocket overnight. These price hike is a result of a lot of people wanting to play Modern. Wizards is already successful in making Modern a non rotating format that they can support with reprints, which I think that they will do. Wizards will not print fetchlands overnight just because it's out or reach in terms of price. What they will do is carefully plan on a reprint. They will not print cards for Modern the same way that they print cards for Standard. They have to slowly add reprints into circulation so that it will not be as easy as entering Standard.
I don't think I disagree with anything you are saying in this post, though I'm not sure what it has to do with what I said.
Yup. Exactly what I was talking about. At least in Modern there are still viable cheap decks like RDW, Mono White Hatebears, UR Storm (except for scalding tarn).
I suppose it depends on your meta, but I always find that comments like these are more often repetition of things others have said rather than reality. RDW can win in some metas with a bit more luck than usual, but it is only barely viable much of the time and for most players who have played the game longer than six months it is mind-numbingly dull to play. I am not sure what you mean by Mono White Hatebears, but as a long time Modern D&T player I can tell you that it that it is not exactly "cheap". Compared to other decks it could be considered cheap, and does not have to deal with fetch prices, but for a lot of people it is still a chunk of change. The cheapest deck that I can see maybe doing well with some room for tweaking for your meta is probably GU Infect with a budget (but still viable) manabase.
I'm not saying you're wrong that there are viable budget decks for newer players to Modern, just that I disagree with your examples.
Where I do disagree with you is your advice to buy cheap staples now if you want to play Modern. Sure, I started slowly acquired my collection over the last dozen years, and I think that it is always a good idea to look out for cards that will be on the rise in the future, but it is not an answer to the problem. Telling someone who looks at Modern and says to themselves "wow, that format looks really fun and will push my game to new levels", that the answer is to buy some cards now and maybe in two years they can actually play is a bit hollow. That is fine if the person just started playing the game, but if they have been in the game for a year or more they should be able to expect the inroads to new parts of the game to inspire more optimism. At the very least it seems like terrible business to impose that kind of effective financial waiting period in order to keep playing the game in the way the customer wants to play it.
Now, as I said I do think that there are other ways to enjoy the format in a less "all in" way, I just think that "save your pennies and come back in two years" is a terrible answer- especially if the ceiling on card values keeps increasing.
When I think of Modern, I don't think of Modern in a vacuum. I think of Magic the Gathering in general. If it were that easy to get into Modern, then do you honestly think that there will still be Standard and Limited players? We should also consider those formats because Modern is the youngest format and I don't think Wizards will forsake Standard just to please people wanting to play Modern. They promised that Modern will be more accessible than Legacy, that is a promise they intend to keep and have done a good job so far (GP Richmond is the largest constructed GP). What they don't promise is for Modern to be more accessible than Standard. Standard is there for any player that wanted to start playing Magic and for returning players that don't have any staples. Modern is for returning players that have some staples and for players planning to lay low from Standard. The price hike we are seeing now is already the effect of Wizards success in promoting Modern. These prices did not sky rocket overnight. These price hike is a result of a lot of people wanting to play Modern. Wizards is already successful in making Modern a non rotating format that they can support with reprints, which I think that they will do. Wizards will not print fetchlands overnight just because it's out or reach in terms of price. What they will do is carefully plan on a reprint. They will not print cards for Modern the same way that they print cards for Standard. They have to slowly add reprints into circulation so that it will not be as easy as entering Standard.
I don't think I disagree with anything you are saying in this post, though I'm not sure what it has to do with what I said.
All I'm saying is that they really need to slowly acquire staples like what we did or if they have cash buy the expensive cards they want. That's not going to change for a non rotating format. The increase in prices now is not sustainable given that Wizards will reprint them in the long run. But that's reality, the shops are dictating the prices right now and all we can do is buy or wait for the reprint. Because that's what reprints are for, to keep prices more affordable than Legacy.
cards are available for purchase = accessible. they never once said they wanted the format to be affordable. you want to play tier 1 at your FNM? shell out for it. if you're changing your deck based on the meta you play in, be prepared to pay even more, because having interchangeable parts or multiple decks costs even more money. reprints are an inevitability, but the whole "we made the format not constrained by the reserve list" thing is not about the price of the cards. if they cared about the price of cards, they would have printed stuff for legacy that isn't on the reserve list. that statement was meant as, "we know there's an inherent cap on legacy staples that limits the number of people who can play. so we'll make a format where we can reprint cards so they're available." as in for purchase.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
I just purchased a full paper copy of my 8Rack deck.
It cost me $946.00. At the beginning of this year my deck priced at less than $500. Granted Bitterblossom got unbanned since then and that added $150 to my price tag, but that still leaves quite a bit of inflation of the cost of the deck.
I bought the physical cards now because I see this format sky rocketing over the next couple years and I want to be able to afford my to play my baby in meatspace should I ever want to.
I think buying physical cards right now is a great investment.
To anyone saying modern was meant for everyone or accessible to every player I think you are being greedy. Wizards said modern was for players who played multiple seasons of standard and built up collections over those years. Also I didn't swindle anyone, I invested in cards like fetches, snaps and other cards that spiked like ****.
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Active Modern Decks
U Tron GW Bogles RG Loam UR Blue Breach RBU Grixis Goryo BRU Grixis Delver GBR Jund GBW Junk
Funnily enough, the one that I dug up paints a completely different picture:
As I said, many of you have called for a non-rotating format that doesn't have the card availability problems of Legacy. We propose Modern as that format.
Modern was created as an alternative to Legacy. Nothing was said about having to play Standard for at least X years as a requirement for entry into Modern.
To anyone saying modern was meant for everyone or accessible to every player I think you are being greedy. Wizards said modern was for players who played multiple seasons of standard and built up collections over those years. Also I didn't swindle anyone, I invested in cards like fetches, snaps and other cards that spiked like ****.
I don't think anyone actually said Modern was meant for everyone. It is acknowledged that Modern is more expensive than Standard, and I don't think people are asking for handouts, just reasonable prices. Also, please cite the source where Wizards said Modern was for players who played multiple seasons of Standard and built up collections over those years.
Modern is also good for the secondary market as you guys have figured out (from me reading your posts). If players are compelled to keep their cards instead of selling them before rotation, then each card's value will retain a good portion. Many cards even go up. If many people just sold their decks before Standard rotation to recoup their losses, the cards' values would go down for the most part other than casual and EDH favorites. Modern keeps the cards worth a bunch.
I used to always sell my cards before rotation. You can look at my trader rep here on MTGS. I would recoup 80-90% of what I paid for the cards, so that was damn good. When word of Modern hit, I bought as many staples as I possibly could and decided not to sell my collections at the end of rotations anymore. If I sold Wurmcoil Engine for $10 at the end of rotation, it would be much less than the minimum $18 I could sell it for now. This rings true for SO many cards, I can't name them all. Honestly without Modern, Wurmcoil Engine for example would be probably $2 at the most. (Tron not even doing well recently has STILL kept Wurmcoil Engine at $20+).
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Here's the issue with modern: People don't brew. They stick to known archetypes. A Standard-legal burn deck went 4-0 in a modern daily when it accidentally queued incorrectly. 4-0. A sub-optimal deck. What does this tell me? No one brews enough. Everyone just sees the top decks and goes for it. Can you imagine if more people played and brewed the following decks:
Time-Walker's Mill
Slivers
Modern Mill
Goblins
Blue Moon
Boggles
A devotion deck
Twiddle Storm
RW Prison
Norin's Soul Sisters
Young Pyromancer decks
Goblins
Top Control
ETC, ETC, ETC...
Ad Nauseam Grace was a sub-competitive deck until recently when it got some screen time during an event and now people think it's a legitimate deck and people are brewing it. If this happened to more decks, they would be optimized and perform much better. People in modern are lazy. Only recently we've been getting some success with merfolk lists and the list has changed quite a bit as many minds have come together to optimize the list. People just need to branch out. That's the reason prices are crazy, people don't brew anymore.
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Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Tthis thread reminds me of when kids would get together for group projects about how to fix the government and then they'd propose free pizza for everyone to end hunger. How hard could it be?
It took me over a year of not playing modern to build merfolk and when the vaults got reprinted I jumped on it when I saw they hit 11 dollars each and where starting to creep up at all. I waited patiently in between job uncertainty and moving to a new city and finished the deck finally. I'm still acquiring sideboard cards for the deck and trying out stupid things slowly and I can build the deck in any configuration I want. Lately the deck has actually been doing really well and it seems like there are a ton of ways to build it successfully, but you just have to know how your card choices impact your decisions in-game. Playing with remand is much different than playing with spell pierce, I thought i'd prefer to play with ten dollar counters and now that I've spent 50 bucks, I discovered I was wrong. oops. Turns out that the price tag of cards and a thousand articles a week about only the topmost tiers of any format (and thus the most expensive cards) works as advertising. It took time but I waited, I played limited to get my fix, sealed pool draft when I could (i prefer it but its harder to always find), and kitchen table magic with my friends.
Now I have job security, am settled into my city and I just bought a whole 4cc gifts deck in basically a week, everything in their current inflated prices (still before modern season mind you), and everything in near mint because I figure it'll maintain the most value. very excited.
The takeaway from this post is this: I am ok with spending the money because I know I like the format and the pricetag is worth it. it took a while to get in and play a passable deck to test the waters via merfolk because i was unwilling to take the risk if it turned out that modern wasn't fun--i'd be down 500 for basically nothing.
I think that money is money and budget is budget, but there are people out there talking about the barrier to entry and 'what wizards wants' who really can't deal with the consequences of spending money and actually investing in something they like enough to even want it at all. You want the options without the commitment, you want to be good without practice, its blood sweat and tears to be at the top of any sport or hobby--its a totally immature attitude being perpetuated in this thread and its totally lame that you should be getting something for less than you currently can.
This is related to the phenomenon of people complaining about true-name nemesis in legacy who seemingly don't play legacy, but rather seem to have everything to say about every deck listed in this forum and their opinion on it.
related to land based expenses: you can build just about any land base in two or three colors optimally enough to play at your local game store tournament and 4-0 for under a hundred dollars--most people don't need to be doing better than that, make that realization. Most decks are pretty cheap for modern in comparision to standard excepting only those fetch bases.
Here's the issue with modern: People don't brew. They stick to known archetypes. A Standard-legal burn deck went 4-0 in a modern daily when it accidentally queued incorrectly. 4-0. A sub-optimal deck. What does this tell me? No one brews enough. Everyone just sees the top decks and goes for it. Can you imagine if more people played and brewed the following decks:
Time-Walker's Mill
Slivers
Modern Mill
Goblins
Blue Moon
Boggles
A devotion deck
Twiddle Storm
RW Prison
Norin's Soul Sisters
Young Pyromancer decks
Goblins
Top Control
ETC, ETC, ETC...
Ad Nauseam Grace was a sub-competitive deck until recently when it got some screen time during an event and now people think it's a legitimate deck and people are brewing it. If this happened to more decks, they would be optimized and perform much better. People in modern are lazy. Only recently we've been getting some success with merfolk lists and the list has changed quite a bit as many minds have come together to optimize the list. People just need to branch out. That's the reason prices are crazy, people don't brew anymore.
This. My God this!
These lazy people you are talking about I have been calling lemmings. Lazy thinkers, because it's easier to copy something someone else has proven can work than to think up your own thing.
THere are plenty of viable decks out there like the ones you mentioned and many many more.
Funnily enough, the one that I dug up paints a completely different picture:
As I said, many of you have called for a non-rotating format that doesn't have the card availability problems of Legacy. We propose Modern as that format.
Modern was created as an alternative to Legacy. Nothing was said about having to play Standard for at least X years as a requirement for entry into Modern.
How many started playing Legacy right off? Comparing Modern to Legacy in this way is not a good comparison because most Legacy players have been playing forever and didnt start playing Legacy when they came into Magic.
Also, when Legacy came about a lot of the players already owned most of the staples because of years of playing.
Quote from MemoryLapse »
I just purchased a full paper copy of my 8Rack deck.
It cost me $946.00. At the beginning of this year my deck priced at less than $500. Granted Bitterblossom got unbanned since then and that added $150 to my price tag, but that still leaves quite a bit of inflation of the cost of the deck.
I bought the physical cards now because I see this format sky rocketing over the next couple years and I want to be able to afford my to play my baby in meatspace should I ever want to.
I think buying physical cards right now is a great investment.
IMO wrong time to be investing into the format. Prices are on the up tick and its going to cost much more now then it would have the end of last year. People need to start thinking ahead if they want to get into the deck they want at a reasonable price.
Here's the issue with modern: People don't brew. They stick to known archetypes. A Standard-legal burn deck went 4-0 in a modern daily when it accidentally queued incorrectly. 4-0. A sub-optimal deck. What does this tell me? No one brews enough. Everyone just sees the top decks and goes for it. Can you imagine if more people played and brewed the following decks:
Time-Walker's Mill
Slivers
Modern Mill
Goblins
Blue Moon
Boggles
A devotion deck
Twiddle Storm
RW Prison
Norin's Soul Sisters
Young Pyromancer decks
Goblins
Top Control
ETC, ETC, ETC...
Ad Nauseam Grace was a sub-competitive deck until recently when it got some screen time during an event and now people think it's a legitimate deck and people are brewing it. If this happened to more decks, they would be optimized and perform much better. People in modern are lazy. Only recently we've been getting some success with merfolk lists and the list has changed quite a bit as many minds have come together to optimize the list. People just need to branch out. That's the reason prices are crazy, people don't brew anymore.
LOL. When people "brew" is EXACTLY when prices spike. Remember Ninja Bear Delver and Disrupting Shoal? Or the terrible Summoner's Egg deck? Hell, Norin rose from bulk to $5 mid. Even earlier than that, Daybreak Coronet hit $25 after Bogle T8ed a MTGO PTQ in 2012.
I'd say that there is a lot more brewing going on after DRS left - just that not every deck is equal, and certainly not every brew is going to be competitive. Leave the wide-eyed idealism behind - if a deck isn't doing well, it's more likely that it's a bad choice, than "not enough people are playing it". After the initial surge of interest, Ad Nauseam doesn't put up spectacular results on MTGO any more, so what does that tell you about its viability? Certainly, enough people have tried to make it work, so laziness isn't a factor here.
Lastly Merfolk saw a resurgence because new cards were printed for it (namely Thassa and Master of Waves), not because someone magically saw something that all the other Merfolk players missed. There's a point where if the hive mind spends enough effort tuning a deck, they'll hit a plateau - that deck is simply not going to become any better unless new cards are printed for that archetype.
IMO wrong time to be investing into the format. Prices are on the up tick and its going to cost much more now then it would have the end of last year. People need to start thinking ahead if they want to get into the deck they want at a reasonable price.
...or the demand goes up in the long run, regardless of the reprints. My justification for this statement is that Modern popularity has been growing steadily, with no signs of fall off. Costs of staples rising with unknown ceilings. MTG could be seeing the beginnings of a paradigm shift from rotating formats to non rotating. People who like games these days tend to play the games long term. Magic is an old game but it keeps itself fresh. It offers an amazingly deep level of strategy AND self expression.
Another thing I'm shocked I haven't seen talked about yet is Hearthstone and it's impact on MTG. Hearthstone is getting a ton of press, and the inevitable comparisons to MTG let us share in some of that spotlight. Hearthstone is commonly viewed as a stepping stone game to MTG. I am certain that a lot of people that love Hearthstone end up loving MTG more. This causes demand for cards to go up. No clear end in sight to Hearthstone, and it will never truly compete with MTG in terms of game complexity or shear volume of cards.
IMO wrong time to be investing into the format. Prices are on the up tick and its going to cost much more now then it would have the end of last year. People need to start thinking ahead if they want to get into the deck they want at a reasonable price.
...or the demand goes up in the long run, regardless of the reprints because Modern popularity has been growing steadily, with no signs of fall off.
I guarantee after the Modern season is over prices will dip back down. Maybe not to the end of last year prices, but across the board the prices will dip. Its just where you bought in and what price you paid if it will be a good or bad dip.
All you have to do is go and look at the cycles from years past. It happens every year. Even in non-rotating formats.
Quote from dpac »
Should I sell my restoration angel's and raging ravine now or will their price go up? I'm not really aware of their place in modern.
You are talking about a $7-$10 card in resto, and a $3-$6 card in ravine. Both are played in minimal decks. They probably wnt go up much more then they are unless a new deck comes out centered around them. Personally for me, they are not going to buy meinto a new deck, better to hang on to them, but thats just me.
I guarantee after the Modern season is over prices will dip back down. Maybe not to the end of last year prices, but across the board the prices will dip. Its just where you bought in and what price you paid if it will be a good or bad dip.
All you have to do is go and look at the cycles from years past. It happens every year. Even in non-rotating formats.
I know it's cyclical. I have been playing for a long time too. You have to consider my perspective though: I know the cards will go up in the long term, and I am not planning on selling them anyways. I want these to actually use in meatspace. The fluctuation value of the cards is pretty meaningless to me. For others out there like me, to whom the cost of breaking in to Modern is not of any great concern, I suggest getting in now and enjoying it because its a really fun time. The meta has never been better.
The fact that I would like the format so much that I even want to play the game in meatspace is significant to me.
This is the heart of the issue right here. Modern is an easily accessible format because regardless what the cards cost you can go onto tcgplayer and order an entire deck with ease.
That cost is what a lot of people are taking issue with. My question for you is why do you think you are entitled to cards at the price that you want to pay?
I don't turn on my TV to watch an F1 race and lament how the cost to compete has spiraled out of control. I don't watch the world series of poker and complain that I can't compete because I don't have $10,000 lying around to enter. Why do you feel you should only have to pay some arbitrary price to compete with the same cards you see in Pro Tour coverage? For better or worse Magic is not basketball. There is a monetary barrier to entry in competitive Magic, just like there is in racing cars, playing poker, and countless other activities. If you're not comfortable paying the money to overcome that barrier then maybe you should seriously think about whether you want to play competitive Magic. You can play kitchen table games, FNMs, or even attempt to compete at the highest levels without those cards, but you will be at a disadvantage. Either accept that, pay, or stop playing. The rising prices are proof that people are willing to pay them. Wizards has absolutely no obligation to pander to people who for whatever reason think "ink and cardboard" should never cost more than $5, $10, or $20. The market is driven by supply and demand.
This is entirely a matter of priorities. If you can't afford fetchlands because you need to support your family that's too bad, but I think we can both agree that your family should be priority #1. If competitive Magic is your calling in life and you just have to get some fetchlands to do so then abandon your family and buy them. That is an option, though it isn't (and shouldn't be) an appealing one to most people. That should be a sign that you don't really need those fetchlands. Realistically, the barrier of entry in Magic is very small. The fact that two or three thousand dollars can get you any of the very best Modern decks is a testament to that; that would barely get me a useable chassis to race in the cheapest of spec classes, nevermind build, maintenance, and competition costs. To some people out there the cost of a basketball is a significant barrier to entry to play that sport. I'd love more reprints to drop the monetary barrier to entry of modern because I'd love to see more people getting into the format, but that doesn't mean Wizards has any obligation to do it.
Think about your priorities and your financial situation and decide whether competitive Magic is for you. If you say yes and can't afford Modern then play limited tournaments, and be very glad you even have that option. Prices don't need to change. Wizards doesn't need to reprint cards to keep prices within the arbitrary range that you're willing to pay. You need to change your perspective.
Honestly, I don't think most people are complaining about $50 cards. People are complaining about a format that was supposed to solve the accessibility issues of Legacy, but where some of the main cards now cost just as much as their Legacy counterparts. Many would argue that the format is not fulfilling its mission if Modern decks are as expensive as comparable tier 1 Legacy decks. And even if some of the prices aren't quite there yet, that is the direction they are trending towards; after a few more big Modern events, they are definitely going to get there.
Of course, all of this is complicated because most of the expensive Modern staples are also widely played in Legacy, so the dual format demand keeps prices high. But theoretically, that was a problem Wizards should be able to solve in this new format, and so far it hasn't been solved yet.
Here's the issue with modern: People don't brew. They stick to known archetypes. A Standard-legal burn deck went 4-0 in a modern daily when it accidentally queued incorrectly. 4-0. A sub-optimal deck. What does this tell me? No one brews enough. Everyone just sees the top decks and goes for it. Can you imagine if more people played and brewed the following decks:
Time-Walker's Mill
Slivers
Modern Mill
Goblins
Blue Moon
Boggles
A devotion deck
Twiddle Storm
RW Prison
Norin's Soul Sisters
Young Pyromancer decks
Goblins
Top Control
ETC, ETC, ETC...
Ad Nauseam Grace was a sub-competitive deck until recently when it got some screen time during an event and now people think it's a legitimate deck and people are brewing it. If this happened to more decks, they would be optimized and perform much better. People in modern are lazy. Only recently we've been getting some success with merfolk lists and the list has changed quite a bit as many minds have come together to optimize the list. People just need to branch out. That's the reason prices are crazy, people don't brew anymore.
LOL. When people "brew" is EXACTLY when prices spike. Remember Ninja Bear Delver and Disrupting Shoal? Or the terrible Summoner's Egg deck? Hell, Norin rose from bulk to $5 mid. Even earlier than that, Daybreak Coronet hit $25 after Bogle T8ed a MTGO PTQ in 2012.
I'd say that there is a lot more brewing going on after DRS left - just that not every deck is equal, and certainly not every brew is going to be competitive. Leave the wide-eyed idealism behind - if a deck isn't doing well, it's more likely that it's a bad choice, than "not enough people are playing it". After the initial surge of interest, Ad Nauseam doesn't put up spectacular results on MTGO any more, so what does that tell you about its viability? Certainly, enough people have tried to make it work, so laziness isn't a factor here.
Lastly Merfolk saw a resurgence because new cards were printed for it (namely Thassa and Master of Waves), not because someone magically saw something that all the other Merfolk players missed. There's a point where if the hive mind spends enough effort tuning a deck, they'll hit a plateau - that deck is simply not going to become any better unless new cards are printed for that archetype.
I would submit that a $5 card is more affordable than a $200 card. Just a thought. Of course those other deck's cards are going to rise in price and value as they become more successful, but it's still a heck of a lot cheaper than a playset of Tarms & Tarns if you want to play something as competitive as RUG twin.
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Current Decks:
Modern
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Legacy
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Honestly, I don't think most people are complaining about $50 cards. People are complaining about a format that was supposed to solve the accessibility issues of Legacy, but where some of the main cards now cost just as much as their Legacy counterparts. Many would argue that the format is not fulfilling its mission if Modern decks are as expensive as comparable tier 1 Legacy decks. And even if some of the prices aren't quite there yet, that is the direction they are trending towards; after a few more big Modern events, they are definitely going to get there.
Of course, all of this is complicated because most of the expensive Modern staples are also widely played in Legacy, so the dual format demand keeps prices high. But theoretically, that was a problem Wizards should be able to solve in this new format, and so far it hasn't been solved yet.
I think someone did the analysis here on this thread. Legacy decks still cost a lot more than Modern decks and will as long as cards like Underground Sea keep going up past $250. Modern decks cost probably around 50% of their Legacy "counterparts." Even though the prices ARE pretty horrible, I think they are still right in between Legacy and Standard and I think that's all you can ask.
I don't play Vintage anymore. I would if I had more money because although it is minimally played, I like it still. I don't complain about the prices of Power 9 that I personally sold over 15 years ago for 10% of what it sells for now.
Watery Grave sucks compared with Underground Sea. One card is $250 and one is $7. Fetches are the same because they overlap the formats. I would rather have some powerful cards in the format rather than not.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Maybe one thing that could be looked at would be what were the prices of Legacy decks when Modern was announced. If memory serves right Legacy decks then cost what Modern does now. So even though availability can be addressed prices are just as high when the problem of Legacy (prices,availability) where trying to be addressed. So in my mind it has done half its job. A format has been created where cards can be reprinted to address availability but there hasn't really been a price decrease.
Each side has some valid points. The problem I see with the price increases is something like this.
Relatively new player wants to get into Modern (wants to be competitive, attend large events), but doesn't have a bunch of money to front right away to buy a Tier 1 deck. Thus, they are given the advice to save for a few months and the buy the "deck of your dreams". The deck this player wants clocks in at $500. A couple months pass, and this player looks at the current price: the deck is now $700. "Bummer," the player thinks, "I'll have to save an extra month now." ...another month passes, the deck is now $800, the player thinks, "Ugh...another month."...He finally saves up $800 to buy that dream deck, but now it's $900. "Oh eff it, I'll just go buy that Fender guitar I had my eyes on."
Yes, he could've bought the deck piece-by-piece over that time...but even recommending to a player on a budget right now to "save up" can be a quite loaded suggestion.
The massively fluctuating market can be an exhausting thing to keep up with. While I don't think "every card should be less than $20" is logical, I do think there should be a reasonable ceiling ... when I told some folks at our shop that Scalding Tarns hit $100, you should've seen the looks on their faces (from competitve players w/ money). $50 didn't cause any raised eyebrows, but you bet $100 did. $250 Revised Volcanic Island?
I think people are having a problem with the lack of a ceiling...not necessarily magic being a pretty expensive hobby in general.
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When I think of Modern, I don't think of Modern in a vacuum. I think of Magic the Gathering in general. If it were that easy to get into Modern, then do you honestly think that there will still be Standard and Limited players? We should also consider those formats because Modern is the youngest format and I don't think Wizards will forsake Standard just to please people wanting to play Modern. They promised that Modern will be more accessible than Legacy, that is a promise they intend to keep and have done a good job so far (GP Richmond is the largest constructed GP). What they don't promise is for Modern to be more accessible than Standard. Standard is there for any player that wanted to start playing Magic and for returning players that don't have any staples. Modern is for returning players that have some staples and for players planning to lay low from Standard. The price hike we are seeing now is already the effect of Wizards success in promoting Modern. These prices did not sky rocket overnight. These price hike is a result of a lot of people wanting to play Modern. Wizards is already successful in making Modern a non rotating format that they can support with reprints, which I think that they will do. Wizards will not print fetchlands overnight just because it's out or reach in terms of price. What they will do is carefully plan on a reprint. They will not print cards for Modern the same way that they print cards for Standard. They have to slowly add reprints into circulation so that it will not be as easy as entering Standard.
UWR Midrange
BRG Jund
BG Rock
UR Storm
The Philippine Modern Community
RGWUB MTG Modern Philippines
I don't think I disagree with anything you are saying in this post, though I'm not sure what it has to do with what I said.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
All I'm saying is that they really need to slowly acquire staples like what we did or if they have cash buy the expensive cards they want. That's not going to change for a non rotating format. The increase in prices now is not sustainable given that Wizards will reprint them in the long run. But that's reality, the shops are dictating the prices right now and all we can do is buy or wait for the reprint. Because that's what reprints are for, to keep prices more affordable than Legacy.
UWR Midrange
BRG Jund
BG Rock
UR Storm
The Philippine Modern Community
RGWUB MTG Modern Philippines
It cost me $946.00. At the beginning of this year my deck priced at less than $500. Granted Bitterblossom got unbanned since then and that added $150 to my price tag, but that still leaves quite a bit of inflation of the cost of the deck.
I bought the physical cards now because I see this format sky rocketing over the next couple years and I want to be able to afford my to play my baby in meatspace should I ever want to.
I think buying physical cards right now is a great investment.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
Funnily enough, the one that I dug up paints a completely different picture:
Modern was created as an alternative to Legacy. Nothing was said about having to play Standard for at least X years as a requirement for entry into Modern.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I don't think anyone actually said Modern was meant for everyone. It is acknowledged that Modern is more expensive than Standard, and I don't think people are asking for handouts, just reasonable prices. Also, please cite the source where Wizards said Modern was for players who played multiple seasons of Standard and built up collections over those years.
I used to always sell my cards before rotation. You can look at my trader rep here on MTGS. I would recoup 80-90% of what I paid for the cards, so that was damn good. When word of Modern hit, I bought as many staples as I possibly could and decided not to sell my collections at the end of rotations anymore. If I sold Wurmcoil Engine for $10 at the end of rotation, it would be much less than the minimum $18 I could sell it for now. This rings true for SO many cards, I can't name them all. Honestly without Modern, Wurmcoil Engine for example would be probably $2 at the most. (Tron not even doing well recently has STILL kept Wurmcoil Engine at $20+).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Time-Walker's Mill
Slivers
Modern Mill
Goblins
Blue Moon
Boggles
A devotion deck
Twiddle Storm
RW Prison
Norin's Soul Sisters
Young Pyromancer decks
Goblins
Top Control
ETC, ETC, ETC...
Ad Nauseam Grace was a sub-competitive deck until recently when it got some screen time during an event and now people think it's a legitimate deck and people are brewing it. If this happened to more decks, they would be optimized and perform much better. People in modern are lazy. Only recently we've been getting some success with merfolk lists and the list has changed quite a bit as many minds have come together to optimize the list. People just need to branch out. That's the reason prices are crazy, people don't brew anymore.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
It took me over a year of not playing modern to build merfolk and when the vaults got reprinted I jumped on it when I saw they hit 11 dollars each and where starting to creep up at all. I waited patiently in between job uncertainty and moving to a new city and finished the deck finally. I'm still acquiring sideboard cards for the deck and trying out stupid things slowly and I can build the deck in any configuration I want. Lately the deck has actually been doing really well and it seems like there are a ton of ways to build it successfully, but you just have to know how your card choices impact your decisions in-game. Playing with remand is much different than playing with spell pierce, I thought i'd prefer to play with ten dollar counters and now that I've spent 50 bucks, I discovered I was wrong. oops. Turns out that the price tag of cards and a thousand articles a week about only the topmost tiers of any format (and thus the most expensive cards) works as advertising. It took time but I waited, I played limited to get my fix, sealed pool draft when I could (i prefer it but its harder to always find), and kitchen table magic with my friends.
Now I have job security, am settled into my city and I just bought a whole 4cc gifts deck in basically a week, everything in their current inflated prices (still before modern season mind you), and everything in near mint because I figure it'll maintain the most value. very excited.
The takeaway from this post is this: I am ok with spending the money because I know I like the format and the pricetag is worth it. it took a while to get in and play a passable deck to test the waters via merfolk because i was unwilling to take the risk if it turned out that modern wasn't fun--i'd be down 500 for basically nothing.
I think that money is money and budget is budget, but there are people out there talking about the barrier to entry and 'what wizards wants' who really can't deal with the consequences of spending money and actually investing in something they like enough to even want it at all. You want the options without the commitment, you want to be good without practice, its blood sweat and tears to be at the top of any sport or hobby--its a totally immature attitude being perpetuated in this thread and its totally lame that you should be getting something for less than you currently can.
This is related to the phenomenon of people complaining about true-name nemesis in legacy who seemingly don't play legacy, but rather seem to have everything to say about every deck listed in this forum and their opinion on it.
related to land based expenses: you can build just about any land base in two or three colors optimally enough to play at your local game store tournament and 4-0 for under a hundred dollars--most people don't need to be doing better than that, make that realization. Most decks are pretty cheap for modern in comparision to standard excepting only those fetch bases.
This. My God this!
These lazy people you are talking about I have been calling lemmings. Lazy thinkers, because it's easier to copy something someone else has proven can work than to think up your own thing.
THere are plenty of viable decks out there like the ones you mentioned and many many more.
How many started playing Legacy right off? Comparing Modern to Legacy in this way is not a good comparison because most Legacy players have been playing forever and didnt start playing Legacy when they came into Magic.
Also, when Legacy came about a lot of the players already owned most of the staples because of years of playing.
IMO wrong time to be investing into the format. Prices are on the up tick and its going to cost much more now then it would have the end of last year. People need to start thinking ahead if they want to get into the deck they want at a reasonable price.
LOL. When people "brew" is EXACTLY when prices spike. Remember Ninja Bear Delver and Disrupting Shoal? Or the terrible Summoner's Egg deck? Hell, Norin rose from bulk to $5 mid. Even earlier than that, Daybreak Coronet hit $25 after Bogle T8ed a MTGO PTQ in 2012.
I'd say that there is a lot more brewing going on after DRS left - just that not every deck is equal, and certainly not every brew is going to be competitive. Leave the wide-eyed idealism behind - if a deck isn't doing well, it's more likely that it's a bad choice, than "not enough people are playing it". After the initial surge of interest, Ad Nauseam doesn't put up spectacular results on MTGO any more, so what does that tell you about its viability? Certainly, enough people have tried to make it work, so laziness isn't a factor here.
Lastly Merfolk saw a resurgence because new cards were printed for it (namely Thassa and Master of Waves), not because someone magically saw something that all the other Merfolk players missed. There's a point where if the hive mind spends enough effort tuning a deck, they'll hit a plateau - that deck is simply not going to become any better unless new cards are printed for that archetype.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
...or the demand goes up in the long run, regardless of the reprints. My justification for this statement is that Modern popularity has been growing steadily, with no signs of fall off. Costs of staples rising with unknown ceilings. MTG could be seeing the beginnings of a paradigm shift from rotating formats to non rotating. People who like games these days tend to play the games long term. Magic is an old game but it keeps itself fresh. It offers an amazingly deep level of strategy AND self expression.
Another thing I'm shocked I haven't seen talked about yet is Hearthstone and it's impact on MTG. Hearthstone is getting a ton of press, and the inevitable comparisons to MTG let us share in some of that spotlight. Hearthstone is commonly viewed as a stepping stone game to MTG. I am certain that a lot of people that love Hearthstone end up loving MTG more. This causes demand for cards to go up. No clear end in sight to Hearthstone, and it will never truly compete with MTG in terms of game complexity or shear volume of cards.
Thoughts?
I guarantee after the Modern season is over prices will dip back down. Maybe not to the end of last year prices, but across the board the prices will dip. Its just where you bought in and what price you paid if it will be a good or bad dip.
All you have to do is go and look at the cycles from years past. It happens every year. Even in non-rotating formats.
You are talking about a $7-$10 card in resto, and a $3-$6 card in ravine. Both are played in minimal decks. They probably wnt go up much more then they are unless a new deck comes out centered around them. Personally for me, they are not going to buy meinto a new deck, better to hang on to them, but thats just me.
Restoration Angel will surely go up in value, at least in the short term/
Raging Ravine not so much, maybe a little over a long period of time.
I know it's cyclical. I have been playing for a long time too. You have to consider my perspective though: I know the cards will go up in the long term, and I am not planning on selling them anyways. I want these to actually use in meatspace. The fluctuation value of the cards is pretty meaningless to me. For others out there like me, to whom the cost of breaking in to Modern is not of any great concern, I suggest getting in now and enjoying it because its a really fun time. The meta has never been better.
The fact that I would like the format so much that I even want to play the game in meatspace is significant to me.
This is the heart of the issue right here. Modern is an easily accessible format because regardless what the cards cost you can go onto tcgplayer and order an entire deck with ease.
That cost is what a lot of people are taking issue with. My question for you is why do you think you are entitled to cards at the price that you want to pay?
I don't turn on my TV to watch an F1 race and lament how the cost to compete has spiraled out of control. I don't watch the world series of poker and complain that I can't compete because I don't have $10,000 lying around to enter. Why do you feel you should only have to pay some arbitrary price to compete with the same cards you see in Pro Tour coverage? For better or worse Magic is not basketball. There is a monetary barrier to entry in competitive Magic, just like there is in racing cars, playing poker, and countless other activities. If you're not comfortable paying the money to overcome that barrier then maybe you should seriously think about whether you want to play competitive Magic. You can play kitchen table games, FNMs, or even attempt to compete at the highest levels without those cards, but you will be at a disadvantage. Either accept that, pay, or stop playing. The rising prices are proof that people are willing to pay them. Wizards has absolutely no obligation to pander to people who for whatever reason think "ink and cardboard" should never cost more than $5, $10, or $20. The market is driven by supply and demand.
This is entirely a matter of priorities. If you can't afford fetchlands because you need to support your family that's too bad, but I think we can both agree that your family should be priority #1. If competitive Magic is your calling in life and you just have to get some fetchlands to do so then abandon your family and buy them. That is an option, though it isn't (and shouldn't be) an appealing one to most people. That should be a sign that you don't really need those fetchlands. Realistically, the barrier of entry in Magic is very small. The fact that two or three thousand dollars can get you any of the very best Modern decks is a testament to that; that would barely get me a useable chassis to race in the cheapest of spec classes, nevermind build, maintenance, and competition costs. To some people out there the cost of a basketball is a significant barrier to entry to play that sport. I'd love more reprints to drop the monetary barrier to entry of modern because I'd love to see more people getting into the format, but that doesn't mean Wizards has any obligation to do it.
Think about your priorities and your financial situation and decide whether competitive Magic is for you. If you say yes and can't afford Modern then play limited tournaments, and be very glad you even have that option. Prices don't need to change. Wizards doesn't need to reprint cards to keep prices within the arbitrary range that you're willing to pay. You need to change your perspective.
'78 CB750F, '09 CBR600RR
Of course, all of this is complicated because most of the expensive Modern staples are also widely played in Legacy, so the dual format demand keeps prices high. But theoretically, that was a problem Wizards should be able to solve in this new format, and so far it hasn't been solved yet.
I would submit that a $5 card is more affordable than a $200 card. Just a thought. Of course those other deck's cards are going to rise in price and value as they become more successful, but it's still a heck of a lot cheaper than a playset of Tarms & Tarns if you want to play something as competitive as RUG twin.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
I think someone did the analysis here on this thread. Legacy decks still cost a lot more than Modern decks and will as long as cards like Underground Sea keep going up past $250. Modern decks cost probably around 50% of their Legacy "counterparts." Even though the prices ARE pretty horrible, I think they are still right in between Legacy and Standard and I think that's all you can ask.
I don't play Vintage anymore. I would if I had more money because although it is minimally played, I like it still. I don't complain about the prices of Power 9 that I personally sold over 15 years ago for 10% of what it sells for now.
Watery Grave sucks compared with Underground Sea. One card is $250 and one is $7. Fetches are the same because they overlap the formats. I would rather have some powerful cards in the format rather than not.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Death and Taxes
Pauper
UB Teachings
Tortured Existence
Murasa Tron
Modern
Pod (RIP)
Bloom(RIP)
Merfolk
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/trading-post/details/360-bitterblossom-and-mistbind-clique-looking-to-trade
Relatively new player wants to get into Modern (wants to be competitive, attend large events), but doesn't have a bunch of money to front right away to buy a Tier 1 deck. Thus, they are given the advice to save for a few months and the buy the "deck of your dreams". The deck this player wants clocks in at $500. A couple months pass, and this player looks at the current price: the deck is now $700. "Bummer," the player thinks, "I'll have to save an extra month now." ...another month passes, the deck is now $800, the player thinks, "Ugh...another month."...He finally saves up $800 to buy that dream deck, but now it's $900. "Oh eff it, I'll just go buy that Fender guitar I had my eyes on."
Yes, he could've bought the deck piece-by-piece over that time...but even recommending to a player on a budget right now to "save up" can be a quite loaded suggestion.
The massively fluctuating market can be an exhausting thing to keep up with. While I don't think "every card should be less than $20" is logical, I do think there should be a reasonable ceiling ... when I told some folks at our shop that Scalding Tarns hit $100, you should've seen the looks on their faces (from competitve players w/ money). $50 didn't cause any raised eyebrows, but you bet $100 did. $250 Revised Volcanic Island?
I think people are having a problem with the lack of a ceiling...not necessarily magic being a pretty expensive hobby in general.