Blast zone does seem strong, and maybe I should give it serious thought since I’m playing traverse the ulvenwald.
@whocansay
You’re not wrong, but I feel like almost everything in BG meets the criteria of immediately impacting the game state in a meaningful way, no?
One problem I think I can identify (and maybe this is also what you’re alluding to) is over-paying for effects. To quote Gerry Thompson from some tournament commentary, ‘the number of spells you cast in a match of modern is highly correlated with winrate’.
Considering how many powerful cheap cards are in modern now, it seems like it should be possible to build a strong midrange deck with a very low curve (like basically topping at 3-4 mana and even then only for cards that can end games). If I may identify some spells that I think are especially clunky in BG nowadays: maelstrom pulse, 2nd kalitas, Nissa vital force, vraska sad as I am to admit it, 4th LotV, 3rd tracker, and EE given how much less flexibility it has in a two color deck. BG feels very powerful when you draw a bunch of cheap interaction or a mix of cheap interaction with top end, but feels rancid when your opener is all cmc 3+.
@tempest753 i sadly see these data about rock winrate, it's why i test other decks now :'(.
Aha Gerry Thompson is probably right exception is burn. I never try death shadow, maybe Reid Duke show us the way.
You’re not wrong, but I feel like almost everything in BG meets the criteria of immediately impacting the game state in a meaningful way, no?
Dark Confidant does nothing the turn it comes down. Goyf does nothing. Tracker does something minorly impactful sometimes. Ooze does something impactful sometimes. Kalitas does something impactful sometimes.
The only permanent in this deck that immediately has an impact on the game state is Liliana, and I think the deck would be absolutely unplayable without her.
I mean I suppose, but by that logic TiTi, deaths shadow, and gurmag angler are cards that don’t impact the game state and are therefore bad in modern which seems to be clearly not the case. I think playing a creature that swings combat math in your favor counts for something, it just depends on how much mana you have to spend to do so.
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Modern UMerfolk GBWMelira PodRIP GBW Abzan Midrange GBR Jund Midrange
On a semi-related note, IF the London Mulligan somehow becomes reality, what do you think it'll mean for Rock and other midrange decks? I've had people tell me that midrange decks will become significantly worse if people have the ability to more readily manipulate their opening hands.
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Current Modern Decks BG Elves // "He's back. And he brought his friends. And their friends." BG The Rock // "Dwayne Johnson approved." RU Izzet Phoenix // "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em." UGW Bant Spirits // "Super Ghost Bros." BUG Sultai Wildnerness Teachings // "How many turns did I just take again?" C Colorless Eldrazi // "Smash you."
I do think the mulligan change will be net negative for Rock since it’s not a deck that needs to mulligan too much. That basically makes every other deck better while Rock stays roughly the same. With that said, I don’t think it’s a huge deal, and maybe it could be a net positive if people get into the habit of aggressively mulliganing into hands vulnerable to discard.
Either way, it’s only a rule in testing so far. If it’s a really bad rule change for fair modern decks, they probably won’t implement it (tho I hope it passes the test, cause anything to minimize the impact of mulliganing sounds great to me).
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Modern UMerfolk GBWMelira PodRIP GBW Abzan Midrange GBR Jund Midrange
I still insist that while game 1 it may be a negative, post-board the ability to find more exact answers for different archetypes will make the deck stronger. If I can have Surgical every game 2 against Phoenix, then I'll be happy.
That being said, I still understand each deck gets to have better hands, which means linear archetypes will be able to find ways to get around hate and be better against the strategy also, but I think this just leads to better games of magic rewarding better play. I think the mulligan change won't affect the deck that much for that reason. Rock has always been a stable archetype, and I don't think the new mulligan would change its position very much.
I mean I suppose, but by that logic TiTi, deaths shadow, and gurmag angler are cards that don’t impact the game state and are therefore bad in modern which seems to be clearly not the case. I think playing a creature that swings combat math in your favor counts for something, it just depends on how much mana you have to spend to do so.
I don't think that's a fair comparison. Depending on when it comes down, Thing can be triggered right away and basically end the game on the spot against any creature-based deck. Shadow and Angler are different cases because of Stub backup, rendering them basically indestructible and ready to put the game away in no time.
We can debate whether UR Phoenix and GDS are 'fair' decks, but they're definitely not as fair as The Rock, Abzan or Jund.
To rephrase my original statement, I don't think you want to be playing too fair in Modern right now.
To rephrase my original statement, I don't think you want to be playing too fair in Modern right now.
That’s probably accurate, and I think that may have been true for a long time honestly. But it seems like shadow decks fit into what I’d call ‘fair’ relative to the rest of modern, and they’re doing relatively ok in the current meta. That kinda leads me to wonder what the difference is between their deck and ours on a very fundamental level, and whether we can benefit from said knowledge to make Rock more competitive.
The most obvious answers to me seem to be that they can turn the corner very quickly and that their decks are hyper mana-efficient. Clock speed may not be replicable without playing shadow, but I feel like lowering our cmc is certainly a possibility.
It gives your creatures lifelink. The best part of old Sorin, and he does it for free. And he returns creatures the turn he comes in. What is not to like? It is a very good 4 mana resurection spell that leaves behind a walker and some life. It protect itself, witch you need in a good walker.
Think of it as a modular spell with lifegain and reanimate.
If you have no creatures in the yard though, it's absolutely worthless. Its +2 ability basically does nothing at all, and its static ability isn't always relevant either. Lifelink is cute but it doesn't improve the bad matchups at all.
Is any one running the new Delirium Rock with Spawn of Mayhem? I put a low bid on a set on eBay and somehow managed to win, so I got a Walking Ballista and gave it a shot.
I got smoked twice by Boros Burn. I actually took a game against Humans and I was prety much given one game by Storm. I beat the hell out of the bye.
I didn't have the extra Collective Brutalities in the side-board. This was partly because I didn't want to take them out of the other deck and partly because I had some pet cards I wanted to try out. These might have helped against Burn but it looks like a worse match-up than the conventional builds.
A really good draw seems like it will keep up with Humans, as a big flyer is a plus, so this might be one match-upwhere this build has a slight advantage.
The first game, the Storm player went off the turn I drew both main-board Nihil Spellbombs off of Mishra's Baubles. His turn, of course. The second game he durndled until I killed him. The third game I got an early Spellbomb but it was so long before I got any creatures in play he was able to sculpt a winning hand without his graveyard.
The bye match-up seems about the same.
So, does anyone like this build? What match-ups do you think it improves? It seems to pretty well give up on big mana and I don't see it being any better against Control, it 's probably worse. Given that conventional Rock isn't exactly cooking with gas these days, I'm not sure what to do.
Selling the Lilies while they are still crazy expensive seems like the smart move, to be honest.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
a 1 of seems great
Blast zone does seem strong, and maybe I should give it serious thought since I’m playing traverse the ulvenwald.
@whocansay
You’re not wrong, but I feel like almost everything in BG meets the criteria of immediately impacting the game state in a meaningful way, no?
One problem I think I can identify (and maybe this is also what you’re alluding to) is over-paying for effects. To quote Gerry Thompson from some tournament commentary, ‘the number of spells you cast in a match of modern is highly correlated with winrate’.
Considering how many powerful cheap cards are in modern now, it seems like it should be possible to build a strong midrange deck with a very low curve (like basically topping at 3-4 mana and even then only for cards that can end games). If I may identify some spells that I think are especially clunky in BG nowadays: maelstrom pulse, 2nd kalitas, Nissa vital force, vraska sad as I am to admit it, 4th LotV, 3rd tracker, and EE given how much less flexibility it has in a two color deck. BG feels very powerful when you draw a bunch of cheap interaction or a mix of cheap interaction with top end, but feels rancid when your opener is all cmc 3+.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
Aha Gerry Thompson is probably right exception is burn. I never try death shadow, maybe Reid Duke show us the way.
"Penguin is Evil ?"
Dark Confidant does nothing the turn it comes down. Goyf does nothing. Tracker does something minorly impactful sometimes. Ooze does something impactful sometimes. Kalitas does something impactful sometimes.
The only permanent in this deck that immediately has an impact on the game state is Liliana, and I think the deck would be absolutely unplayable without her.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
BG Elves // "He's back. And he brought his friends. And their friends."
BG The Rock // "Dwayne Johnson approved."
RU Izzet Phoenix // "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."
UGW Bant Spirits // "Super Ghost Bros."
BUG Sultai Wildnerness Teachings // "How many turns did I just take again?"
C Colorless Eldrazi // "Smash you."
Either way, it’s only a rule in testing so far. If it’s a really bad rule change for fair modern decks, they probably won’t implement it (tho I hope it passes the test, cause anything to minimize the impact of mulliganing sounds great to me).
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
That being said, I still understand each deck gets to have better hands, which means linear archetypes will be able to find ways to get around hate and be better against the strategy also, but I think this just leads to better games of magic rewarding better play. I think the mulligan change won't affect the deck that much for that reason. Rock has always been a stable archetype, and I don't think the new mulligan would change its position very much.
I don't think that's a fair comparison. Depending on when it comes down, Thing can be triggered right away and basically end the game on the spot against any creature-based deck. Shadow and Angler are different cases because of Stub backup, rendering them basically indestructible and ready to put the game away in no time.
We can debate whether UR Phoenix and GDS are 'fair' decks, but they're definitely not as fair as The Rock, Abzan or Jund.
To rephrase my original statement, I don't think you want to be playing too fair in Modern right now.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
That’s probably accurate, and I think that may have been true for a long time honestly. But it seems like shadow decks fit into what I’d call ‘fair’ relative to the rest of modern, and they’re doing relatively ok in the current meta. That kinda leads me to wonder what the difference is between their deck and ours on a very fundamental level, and whether we can benefit from said knowledge to make Rock more competitive.
The most obvious answers to me seem to be that they can turn the corner very quickly and that their decks are hyper mana-efficient. Clock speed may not be replicable without playing shadow, but I feel like lowering our cmc is certainly a possibility.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Good with fulminator mage.
Sorin, Vengeful Bloodlord
Think of it as a modular spell with lifegain and reanimate.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I also think BGx does not really need him.
The list I copied is here.
I got smoked twice by Boros Burn. I actually took a game against Humans and I was prety much given one game by Storm. I beat the hell out of the bye.
I didn't have the extra Collective Brutalities in the side-board. This was partly because I didn't want to take them out of the other deck and partly because I had some pet cards I wanted to try out. These might have helped against Burn but it looks like a worse match-up than the conventional builds.
A really good draw seems like it will keep up with Humans, as a big flyer is a plus, so this might be one match-upwhere this build has a slight advantage.
The first game, the Storm player went off the turn I drew both main-board Nihil Spellbombs off of Mishra's Baubles. His turn, of course. The second game he durndled until I killed him. The third game I got an early Spellbomb but it was so long before I got any creatures in play he was able to sculpt a winning hand without his graveyard.
The bye match-up seems about the same.
So, does anyone like this build? What match-ups do you think it improves? It seems to pretty well give up on big mana and I don't see it being any better against Control, it 's probably worse. Given that conventional Rock isn't exactly cooking with gas these days, I'm not sure what to do.
Selling the Lilies while they are still crazy expensive seems like the smart move, to be honest.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn