FlyingDelver +1
@KJuhlin statistics not agree at all with you,
15 black sources to cast 5 Lilianas is grindy.
Ghost quarter have advantage for sur but it's not really an huge advantage to can destroy your own land, with field of ruin you can just destroy opponent land and take a swamp.
@yiel
I didn't really do the math, I sorta just swapped my BW manabase but changed the bw creature lands treetop villages, and switched some basics and fetches for the fast lands (I always wanted to cast baneslayer on curve so I didn't include them in my bw list). Urborg helps a bit and I was happy with 17 black sources one of them being urborg, I might go for two hissing quagmire and two treetops or 1-3 and add another fetch.
My main issue with field is imo is that it is to slow, you can't activate it until turn 3, this is too late on the draw vs tron. It might be okay in slower MU like UW-control, but there you will likely run out of basics to fetch anyways. My lgs had plenty of decks that ran blood moon and the ability to sac ghost quarter and target your own land to grab a basic saved med more than once, you can also use ghost quarter against your own land that is being targeted by an opposing field of ruin to deny them the ability to grab a basic. I have also won games vs scapeshift by holding up 3 ghost quarters and targeting my opponents lands in response to the valakut triggers causing my opponent to run out of basics resulting in him having less than 6 mountains in play and me winning the game.
Note: I am not saying that field of ruin is a bad card and I am sure it has many upsides over ghost quarter, I can see tireless tracker beeing one reason to play field over ghost quarter and I am sure there are many more. I my opinion is probably very biased coming from bw where you basically have to fold vs a resolved ugin, and many other cards that bg can beat.
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The maindeck feels almost exactly where I want it. The sideboard is a little more mutable at the moment. Vraska has overperformed so for now that stays, but any glaring holes you see that could use fixing? I’m talking matchups where I’m obviously deficient. The only one I can think of is spirits; I got walloped last week at FNM by it. The deck has since changed, but I think it’s still hard.
Maybe I could swap a kitchen finks for an explosives or targeted removal of some kind?
@KJuhlin :
the manabase of you bw deck is just ok, not grindy but not great too.
I can only advice you the nice article written by FlyingDelver on BGX manabase, he is a little not enough grindy for me but for sure his manabase are safe.
Maths say 18 black sources to cast a liliana turn 3.
About GQ, you talk about 2 specific scenarios :
-blood moon, it's not played a lot and Rock have no problem to deal with when you have 6 basics and 4/5 fetchs.
-valakut, a scenario where you have 3 GQ and your opponent cast scapeshift when he have to know it not works. Moreover if you have 3 field of ruin instead you can just activate it one turn before to do samething, not need to do it in response to scapeshift.
About Tron, sure GQ is far better when your opponent does tron online on the play, sure. If you want only fight tron with your lands, just run ghost quarter. Field of ruin is just better when you look other than these specific scenario cases because you don't loose a land, the only main advantage is that and with tracker, ooze and manlands it matters a lot.
Agree, BG can manage all tron threats even if it's really hard obviously.
I agree too if you are afraid of tron match-up, GQ seems better in your BW but the 4 trophy in BG give you a good MU.
@tempest :
3 overgrown tomb ? you love pain !
I never tried this vraska but my only thought about here is too high cost for not really unique effect as kalitas can bring. It's just a too fair card or me.
Vraska not really help against spirits and humans where LotV is already average. I don't see any match-ups except mirror where vraska seems insane.
The 3 tombs was because I tried Delver’s manabase (and thank you btw Delver for your suggestion) and a couple of games in, I found it was very easy to run out of fetchable green mana so I did the next best thing. Could just be sample size issues, I’ll give the 5-fetch setup another shot.
The thing with the Vraska is that it’s flood insurance essentially. I feel like the way I lose most games with BGx decks is flooding. If you think about it, you simply have more lands than most other modern decks, no cantrips, and slightly less 2-for-1 power than UW, so flooding more often than other modern decks is a pretty logical outcome. Manlands help, but 2/2s and 3/3s aren’t effective enough when the flood gets real bad. Another potential solution is to play more trackers, but I feel like trackers in multiples get clunky very quickly.
Vraska + tracker, however, is an awesome synergy (since she can basically pop clues for free). And that problem Delver and I had fights over a year ago about finding the cards you need when you need them? She does that too, albeit in the late game only. I know the card doesn’t look like much, but I feel like my deck has become considerably more consistent every time I’ve played it (and I usually live plenty long enough to do so).
I've been extremely happy to have 1 Vraska in my 75. She hasn't graduated from the sideboard to the main deck yet, but I find myself boarding her in pretty regularly. A repeatable Abrupt Decay is no joke, and I second everything Tempest said about her helping to mitigate flood. I've found her -3 to be particularly good against Whir and in the mirror. I was always kind of underwhelmed by 5-mana Nissa, I think Vraska comes in for the same matchups but also has way more utility elsewhere.
I've been wondering----why are we still running the 1x pulse when most of us are running 3 to 4 trophies? We have so many clunky 3 and 4 drops---do we really need another? I've been wondering if just replacing it with a Decay is better.
Also, do you guys like 4x Bobs and 2x Trackers, or 3x Bobs and 3x Trackers?
You're not on Jund Shadow, Defish? Meta too hostile?
@tempest : flood is a problem when you are in lategame, it's not really the current modern. By the way tracker is already here to solve flooding problem. For me it's totally a false problem now.
@defish : vraska is good against 2 decks, not impressive ^^
Maybe there’s differences in the way we play then? I know for me at least, I can often stretch matches into the mid-game and vraska ensures I don’t fall behind there because of crappy draws.
I’m not married to the card by any means, but I’ve been impressed. If you ever feel like getting spicy, I recommend it.
@Spsiegel
I think a lot of choices in BGx midrange decks are a bit dogmatic (ie that’s just the way it’s always been). I think there’s considerable merit to your approach, though I probably wouldn’t leave home without at least 1 pulse in the 75.
Also for my two cents, I’m a 3 bob / 3 tracker kind of guy. Both cards lose value with each successive copy you draw.
@Spsiegel1987 : nissa, vital force seems only great in mirror. Control have a bunch of counterspells and i don't see how it can be good against death shadow.
I am on 4 dark confidant and 3 tireless tracker but not sure at all about that.
I guess if i change my midrange deck i will go on grixis death shadow ...
But actually i play kind of hatebears deck, back to my first love.
@tempest753 : probably, i play rock more "aggressively" than jund. But to be honest i see just few scenario cases where vraska is great, maybe i miss some of them. By the way i don't even play the 4th LotV, i guess i have to convince myself about LotV before vraska ><
@tempest753 : i can only agree with that, "vraska improve consistency" sure but it's a turn 4... that's my problem x).
If you can show me the match-up where she is really good and why, maybe i will test it.
I feel you, but I promise it looks worse than it is.
A, by no means non-exhaustive, list of where I think she can shine:
-Any matchup where abrupt decay is highly desirable, obviously. In these matchups, she can totally shut the door on a relatively even game.
-Grindy matchups, or more accurately matchups where the games regularly stretch over 6+ turns. Converting your lands into more spells means you pretty much always win a topdeck war.
-Burn. Any maindeck life gain is obviously useful here.
Where I don’t think she’s good:
-Dredge, since almost literally nothing matters here except turning off their grave and killing them. If your meta is particularly infested with dredge specifically, just stick to 2 kalitas maindeck.
-Tron, since once again nothing matters except killing their lands and killing 5+ cmc threats.
-Titan? Haven’t had the chance to test this one so I don’t actually know. On the surface she doesn’t seem great, but these matchups sometimes go long which is where her +2 shines.
I was always kind of underwhelmed by 5-mana Nissa, I think Vraska comes in for the same matchups but also has way more utility elsewhere.
At SCG Philly, I brought Vraska in against:
- U/R Phoenix
- Pyro Prison
- Mono W Eldrazi Taxes
- Affinity (Experimental Frenzy, not Hardened Scales
- U/W Control
- Whir Prison
The only decks I would have brought Nissa in against would have been U/W. Honestly, if you're not convinced to try Vraska at this point then I don't think you're going to be, she really does exactly what she looks like she'll do.
@DeFish : i talk about vraska MD not in SB, my bad missreading.
I don't ask you to convince me, just to give me your thoughts about her.
By the way, i forced myself to play rock some months ago when i think the deck was worst than jund, try thing when i disagree it's exatcly, imo, the best reason to test it.
@tempest753 : ok as defish says "she really does exactly what she looks like she'll do".
I guess LotV >>> vraska ? (question because i play only 3 LotV)
tried vraska on md.. i think she is good.. there are times that she saves me from burn decks specially when i need to dodge the 2 dmg from eidolon . (which is my local meta is quite infested with burn and phoenix.. ) good at killing thing in the ice aswell and resolved blood moon .
LotV is definitely much more powerful than Vraska on a raw power level, but that doesn’t really tell the full story. The two cards do different things, and it feels like when both players are topdecking and mana efficiency becomes negligible, Vraska>LotV.
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@tempest : obviously i just asking to order my next modification. By the way tireless tracker >>> all turn 10 so i don't really care of this moment of the game
I understand. I just mean to say that the reason why you aren’t playing 4 LotV already is a better determinant to this question. Are you not playing her because 4 is too many? Or because you don’t have space?
If LotV is like the 61st card to you, then I wouldn’t play vraska before 4th LotV. If, however, you’re certain that 3 LotV is precisely where you want to be, then obviously adding a 4th one over vraska doesn’t make sense.
And I definitely agree regrading Tracker, but they get clunky in multiples. 3 trackers is just a mess, and even 2 is often too many clues to be worthwhile. 1 tracker and 1 vraska however is amazing synergy, and 2 trackers + vraska is also quite potent.
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@KJuhlin statistics not agree at all with you,
15 black sources to cast 5 Lilianas is grindy.
Ghost quarter have advantage for sur but it's not really an huge advantage to can destroy your own land, with field of ruin you can just destroy opponent land and take a swamp.
"Penguin is Evil ?"
I didn't really do the math, I sorta just swapped my BW manabase but changed the bw creature lands treetop villages, and switched some basics and fetches for the fast lands (I always wanted to cast baneslayer on curve so I didn't include them in my bw list). Urborg helps a bit and I was happy with 17 black sources one of them being urborg, I might go for two hissing quagmire and two treetops or 1-3 and add another fetch.
My main issue with field is imo is that it is to slow, you can't activate it until turn 3, this is too late on the draw vs tron. It might be okay in slower MU like UW-control, but there you will likely run out of basics to fetch anyways. My lgs had plenty of decks that ran blood moon and the ability to sac ghost quarter and target your own land to grab a basic saved med more than once, you can also use ghost quarter against your own land that is being targeted by an opposing field of ruin to deny them the ability to grab a basic. I have also won games vs scapeshift by holding up 3 ghost quarters and targeting my opponents lands in response to the valakut triggers causing my opponent to run out of basics resulting in him having less than 6 mountains in play and me winning the game.
Note: I am not saying that field of ruin is a bad card and I am sure it has many upsides over ghost quarter, I can see tireless tracker beeing one reason to play field over ghost quarter and I am sure there are many more. I my opinion is probably very biased coming from bw where you basically have to fold vs a resolved ugin, and many other cards that bg can beat.
4 blooming marsh
4 verdant catacombs
3 overgrown tomb
4 swamp
1 Forest
3 treetop village
1 hissing quagmire
1 twilight mire
3 field of ruin
CREATURES (14)
4 tarmogoyf
3 dark confidant
3 scavenging ooze
3 tireless tracker
1 kalitas, traitor of ghet
4 fatal push
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
1 abrupt decay
4 assassin’s trophy
1 maelstrom pulse
WALKERS (5)
4 LotV
1 Vraska, golgari queen
ARTIFACTS (1)
1 nihil spellbomb
3 fulminator mage
2 kitchen finks
2 collective brutality
3 nihil spellbomb
1 grafdigger’s cage
1 Liliana, the last hope
1 cast down
1 damnation
1 unravel the aether
The maindeck feels almost exactly where I want it. The sideboard is a little more mutable at the moment. Vraska has overperformed so for now that stays, but any glaring holes you see that could use fixing? I’m talking matchups where I’m obviously deficient. The only one I can think of is spirits; I got walloped last week at FNM by it. The deck has since changed, but I think it’s still hard.
Maybe I could swap a kitchen finks for an explosives or targeted removal of some kind?
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
the manabase of you bw deck is just ok, not grindy but not great too.
I can only advice you the nice article written by FlyingDelver on BGX manabase, he is a little not enough grindy for me but for sure his manabase are safe.
Maths say 18 black sources to cast a liliana turn 3.
About GQ, you talk about 2 specific scenarios :
-blood moon, it's not played a lot and Rock have no problem to deal with when you have 6 basics and 4/5 fetchs.
-valakut, a scenario where you have 3 GQ and your opponent cast scapeshift when he have to know it not works. Moreover if you have 3 field of ruin instead you can just activate it one turn before to do samething, not need to do it in response to scapeshift.
About Tron, sure GQ is far better when your opponent does tron online on the play, sure. If you want only fight tron with your lands, just run ghost quarter. Field of ruin is just better when you look other than these specific scenario cases because you don't loose a land, the only main advantage is that and with tracker, ooze and manlands it matters a lot.
Agree, BG can manage all tron threats even if it's really hard obviously.
I agree too if you are afraid of tron match-up, GQ seems better in your BW but the 4 trophy in BG give you a good MU.
@tempest :
3 overgrown tomb ? you love pain !
I never tried this vraska but my only thought about here is too high cost for not really unique effect as kalitas can bring. It's just a too fair card or me.
Vraska not really help against spirits and humans where LotV is already average. I don't see any match-ups except mirror where vraska seems insane.
"Penguin is Evil ?"
The 3 tombs was because I tried Delver’s manabase (and thank you btw Delver for your suggestion) and a couple of games in, I found it was very easy to run out of fetchable green mana so I did the next best thing. Could just be sample size issues, I’ll give the 5-fetch setup another shot.
The thing with the Vraska is that it’s flood insurance essentially. I feel like the way I lose most games with BGx decks is flooding. If you think about it, you simply have more lands than most other modern decks, no cantrips, and slightly less 2-for-1 power than UW, so flooding more often than other modern decks is a pretty logical outcome. Manlands help, but 2/2s and 3/3s aren’t effective enough when the flood gets real bad. Another potential solution is to play more trackers, but I feel like trackers in multiples get clunky very quickly.
Vraska + tracker, however, is an awesome synergy (since she can basically pop clues for free). And that problem Delver and I had fights over a year ago about finding the cards you need when you need them? She does that too, albeit in the late game only. I know the card doesn’t look like much, but I feel like my deck has become considerably more consistent every time I’ve played it (and I usually live plenty long enough to do so).
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
I've been wondering----why are we still running the 1x pulse when most of us are running 3 to 4 trophies? We have so many clunky 3 and 4 drops---do we really need another? I've been wondering if just replacing it with a Decay is better.
Also, do you guys like 4x Bobs and 2x Trackers, or 3x Bobs and 3x Trackers?
You're not on Jund Shadow, Defish? Meta too hostile?
I've been thinking something like this
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Overgrown Tomb
4x Blooming Marsh
2x Hissing Quagmire
2x Treetop Village
4x Swamp
2x Forest
4x Field of Ruin
Creature (15)
3x Dark Confidant
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Tireless Tracker
2x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
4x Fatal Push
3x Assassin's Trophy
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Collective Brutality
Planeswalker (4)
4x Liliana of the Veil
Other (1)
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Grafdigger's Cage
1x Collective Bruality
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Damnation
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Creeping Corrosion
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Choke
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Nissa, Vital Force
@defish : vraska is good against 2 decks, not impressive ^^
"Penguin is Evil ?"
Maybe there’s differences in the way we play then? I know for me at least, I can often stretch matches into the mid-game and vraska ensures I don’t fall behind there because of crappy draws.
I’m not married to the card by any means, but I’ve been impressed. If you ever feel like getting spicy, I recommend it.
@Spsiegel
I think a lot of choices in BGx midrange decks are a bit dogmatic (ie that’s just the way it’s always been). I think there’s considerable merit to your approach, though I probably wouldn’t leave home without at least 1 pulse in the 75.
Also for my two cents, I’m a 3 bob / 3 tracker kind of guy. Both cards lose value with each successive copy you draw.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
I am on 4 dark confidant and 3 tireless tracker but not sure at all about that.
I guess if i change my midrange deck i will go on grixis death shadow ...
But actually i play kind of hatebears deck, back to my first love.
@tempest753 : probably, i play rock more "aggressively" than jund. But to be honest i see just few scenario cases where vraska is great, maybe i miss some of them. By the way i don't even play the 4th LotV, i guess i have to convince myself about LotV before vraska ><
"Penguin is Evil ?"
I know that won’t necessarily change your mind, but maybe it can give you an idea of what the card can bring to the table.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
If you can show me the match-up where she is really good and why, maybe i will test it.
"Penguin is Evil ?"
A, by no means non-exhaustive, list of where I think she can shine:
-Any matchup where abrupt decay is highly desirable, obviously. In these matchups, she can totally shut the door on a relatively even game.
-Grindy matchups, or more accurately matchups where the games regularly stretch over 6+ turns. Converting your lands into more spells means you pretty much always win a topdeck war.
-Burn. Any maindeck life gain is obviously useful here.
Where I don’t think she’s good:
-Dredge, since almost literally nothing matters here except turning off their grave and killing them. If your meta is particularly infested with dredge specifically, just stick to 2 kalitas maindeck.
-Tron, since once again nothing matters except killing their lands and killing 5+ cmc threats.
-Titan? Haven’t had the chance to test this one so I don’t actually know. On the surface she doesn’t seem great, but these matchups sometimes go long which is where her +2 shines.
That’s all I can think of right now.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
This is wildly disingenuous when that post was making the argument that Vraska comes in against the same decks as Nissa, as well as a few more:
At SCG Philly, I brought Vraska in against:
- U/R Phoenix
- Pyro Prison
- Mono W Eldrazi Taxes
- Affinity (Experimental Frenzy, not Hardened Scales
- U/W Control
- Whir Prison
The only decks I would have brought Nissa in against would have been U/W. Honestly, if you're not convinced to try Vraska at this point then I don't think you're going to be, she really does exactly what she looks like she'll do.
That just looks so much worse than Grim Flayer.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I don't ask you to convince me, just to give me your thoughts about her.
By the way, i forced myself to play rock some months ago when i think the deck was worst than jund, try thing when i disagree it's exatcly, imo, the best reason to test it.
@tempest753 : ok as defish says "she really does exactly what she looks like she'll do".
I guess LotV >>> vraska ? (question because i play only 3 LotV)
"Penguin is Evil ?"
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
"Penguin is Evil ?"
If LotV is like the 61st card to you, then I wouldn’t play vraska before 4th LotV. If, however, you’re certain that 3 LotV is precisely where you want to be, then obviously adding a 4th one over vraska doesn’t make sense.
And I definitely agree regrading Tracker, but they get clunky in multiples. 3 trackers is just a mess, and even 2 is often too many clues to be worthwhile. 1 tracker and 1 vraska however is amazing synergy, and 2 trackers + vraska is also quite potent.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh