I disagree with an abundance of two mana spells. To me drawing a hand of two lands and a mix of creatures/removal/discard means you can sequence your plays so that something like flayer comes down as a 4/4. Or a bob resolves and you are in top deck mode. Importantly all these 1-2 mana spells allow for double spell turns which is key to getting ahead.
@VoodooKick, looking like a strong build from the get-go. Batterskull is a spicy one, have you run it in Rock decks before? Our sideboards diverge a lot more than our main decks do, but that’s something that will probably take longer to “solve” (and be more meta-dependent, of course).
I have been off the archetype for a few months so I figured the new meta would be more kind to Batterskull. In hindsight it was a mediocre pick lol but I think it could do work if the format changed a bit. Reading Brightmist's posts, watching a few leagues and seeing some 5-0 lists helped to shape the revised version of my previous list:
A few of my match notes from today (vs Elves for 3 sets 2-1, vs Goryo 2-0, vs Hardened Scales 1-1)
I can't say that Creeping Corrosion is a necessary evil, but I feel it's too good against some of the more punishing decks to not deserve its place
Goyf was the difference, it's really hard to put a game away attacking in small bunches
Nihil Spellbomb is exceptional because the most common way to beat Rock is through abusing unfair strategies that cheat on mana (mostly Goryo, Vengevine, Hollow One, KCI, and Storm try to do this) Spellbomb is an ace against every single one of those decks
Languish/Flaying Tendrils/EE felt very nice against Elves. Don't think the matchup can be won with any fewer than 3 sweepers
Kitchen Finks feels like the better option over Col. Brutality, but I have no data to back it up. It's just that the body living through a block step and giving you that much more of a cushion feels so important over just the single use of Disfigure/drain. Only because coupled with Liliana the Last Hope this feels to be the better angle to outlast aggro. Need more testing to back it up
Flaying Tendrils was insane against Hardened Scales. One of the scariest things about the deck is their ability to weasel around removal with Welding Jar and it feels by the time you nix their threats, the next wave is just too much to deal with. Tendrils on a Hangarback to cinch their board feels like the way to go. I might shift to 2x Tendrils if Languish doesn't pull its weight. My opponent tried to sac it to his land in response and the tokens just ended up dying lol
Deck is super fun to jam. Felt good playing the Tim Duncan of Modern archetypes lol. I'm not a fan of this high-octane crapshoot where you just try to do your plan A faster than the other guy and then center your board around hate. Finally feels like you can play a deck where punishing the opponent's mistakes and choosing the best lines rewards you the most, without the drawback of playing control and drawing so many dead cards in compromising situations
I don't have the money to build the deck on paper and MTGO but if anyone is willing to do gauntlet testing on Cockatrice feel free to get in touch
I'm a very results-oriented player and prefer to iterate on successful decks rather than try and reinvent things from scratch. That's just my approach so take this post with that in mind.
I went through the major BGx placements at GP/PT this year looking for some guidance on the Flayer/threat suit issue. I'm including Souls, manlands, and any Flayer enablers like Spellbom. Not posting Jund results here because that's obviously a different beast due to BBE (also, it has its own thread). Here are some findings:
PT Rix
Reid Duke's Abzan at 8-1-1 in Modern and in overall T8 (4 Goyf, 4 Bob, 2 Ooze, 2 Flayer, 1 Tracker, 3 Souls, 2 Spellbomb)
GP Toronto
Lucas Siow's BG Rock at 16th place (4 Goyf, 4 Bob, 2 Ooze, 1 Flayer, 2 Tracker, 1 Spellbomb)
GP Lyon
Marcio Carvalho's Abzan in 2nd (4 Goyf, 4 Bob, 2 Ooze, 2 Flayer, 1 Tracker, 3 Souls, 2 Spellbomb)
Marco de Togni's Abzan in T8 (4 Goyf, 4 Bob, 2 Ooze, 2 Flayer, 1 Tracker, 3 Souls, 2 Spellbomb)
Sepp Jansen's BG Rock in 22nd (4 Goyf, 4 Bob, 3 Ooze, 2 Tracker, 1 Spellbomb)
Elliott Boussard's Abzan in 26th (2 Anafenza, 4 Goyf, 4 Rhino, 4 Hierarch, 2 Ooze, 1 Doran, 4 Souls)
GP Sao Paulo
Leonardo Giucci's Abzan Traverse in T8 (4 Goyf, 4 Flayer, 2 Rhino, 1 Ooze, 4 Souls, 4 Bauble)
So there's a big dearth of non-Jund BGx from 02/2018 through Sao Paulo, and then nothing after. Lots of GP went by without BGx of any kind in either the T8 or even the T16/T32. That's an issue for us to address. Regarding the threat issue, in pre-BBE/JTMS unban times, the Flayer-lite/Spellbomb/Bob package clearly got the nod with the biggest finishes. Afterwards, the paper picture isn't very helpful because the archetype suffers from bad GP/PT results overall with Guicci's as the only exception. The MTGO picture is also not helpful. Abzan and BG Rock have ZERO T32 finishes in any Modern MTGO PTQs from March through present (PTQs being a good indicator due to size and competitiveness). MOCS events are even better indicators, as they are harder to qualify for and generally feature stronger players. These offer a few examples:
Here, we see Bobs and Flayers but no Spellbombs at all. Also, no Baubles and no Traverse package. I really trust Fallleaf's (Akira Tamaki) finishes because he has two solid MOCS finishes from the last 3-4 months (i.e. competitive finishes in a recent metagame), is regularly on the MTGO leaderboard, AND he has a huge history of Abzan success this year: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/fallleaf. Interestingly, Fallleaf has switched to the Traverse build from August through present and has been placing exclusively with that package:
Overall, it's possible that his new Traverse/Flayer package will become the standard over the older Bob/Flayer/Tracker mix we saw throughout 2018. But the majority of 2018 successes were in that more traditional threat package, which steers me more to that composition. That is also what Duke has been leaning towards in his own content.
In my mind both versions are viable. Either Traverse builds or a classical reid duke style of build. Thats also why those 2 builds are mentioned in the primer. I was never a fan of the "centralized" list people also have been discusing at points.
We had great discussions with Leonardo Giucci about the traverse build, it basically operates as a normal GBx deck with a slight move into traverse for finding silverbullets. This does solve a lot of the problems a typical GBx deck has to face otherwise: Having the wrong kind of answers at the wrong time. Other than Bob there is no early game card draw tool which GBx decks can realisitcally run, so this is natural to happen. When you include a small traverse package, you can compensate that a little bit. However, the focus is shifted towards the need to reach delirium then. And delirium is also by no means a consistant thing to have. However, if you don't have it, the deck can at least operate as a normal GBx deck in that case, which means you are not completely relying on it (and this is important). Overall the question will be if we need the traverse package going onward when we just can run Trophy now. I am curious to see where its going, but my gut tells me that a classic GB deck splashing minor white cards (Souls, Stony and some other SB cards) will be the best performing now. And may it be just for the simple reason that trophy will also be used against us, which means we have to run a decent amount of basics due to that.
Went 4-0 at my local modern tounament last night. Matches were as follows;
2-0 Jeskai Control - Game 1 was an attrition matchup but i got there. He was playing spell queller main so eventually i got to play all the spells. Game 2 wore his answers down then resolved Gideon. Lights out
2-0 Colorless Eldrazi - Game 1 he had an explosive start with two TKS but i hit the god draw of maelstrom pulse (proof why we still need it :)), Game 2 was a mull to 5 for my opponent. I managed to get an early discard and then blow up one his lands.
2-0 Mardu Pyromancer - Game 1 was a grindy game that I managed to put away thanks to some huge goyfs. Game 2 was an epic game that was won of the back of bitterblossom and scooze controlling my life. I could have died to bolt but played to win.
2-1 Affinity - Game 1 they did their thing and games two and three i did my thing with Stony Silence.
Wow, great content in here lately. Bravo, everyone.
It seems clear that basic-heavy and LD-heavy Rock will be looking very attractive once Trophy is printed. It also seems clear that the above with a microsplash for 3 or fewer Souls and 2-4 Stony (making it perfectly viable to not fetch a white land G1 in many matchups) is similarly well positioned on paper.
To me, the biggest question mark right now is how “true” Abzan will look. Is it too greedy to try to leverage a couple Fields or GQs in a list that plays 3-4 Path and 3-4 Trophy main? Would such a list (with or without the colorless LD) be able to support a critical mass of basic lands without the mana becoming too inconsistent? And, it’s never too early to start thinking...will this be the best shell for SFM once she’s free?
Looking forward to everyone’s further thoughts on the archetype. I’ll be playing Turns this weekend at the SCG Open, but once Trophy drops I can’t wait to start jamming Rock and Abzan again.
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Im really conflicted. I dont necessarily want to play bob, but bob steals games. Thoughts on playing a creature suite like this:
4 tracker
4 goyf
3 scooze
2 tasigur
I disagree with an abundance of two mana spells. To me drawing a hand of two lands and a mix of creatures/removal/discard means you can sequence your plays so that something like flayer comes down as a 4/4. Or a bob resolves and you are in top deck mode. Importantly all these 1-2 mana spells allow for double spell turns which is key to getting ahead.
This is exactly why Goyf/Bob/Flayers/Treetop village are such exciting cards in GBx. Dropping a Bob T2 after discarding their removal has won me a ton of games and having a new "Remove anything" card that costs only 2 is perfect meaning you can keep on doing plays like dropping a tapped Treetop and removing whatever the opponent plays (or a delicious TRON land) and not have to wonder if you rather have a discard on T1, Bob on T2 or Tracker on T3.
Manlands make us loose velocity naturally, and packing the deck with 3-4 drops doesn't help. We need to start generating advantage or pressure on T2, always.
With the addition of Trophy does that mean Bob can be a staple in Abzan now? I remember the argument was that the overall CMC of the deck was too high and that was the reason why Bob was always left out. Also, do we go into the old Noble Hierarch/ Flayer Builds of old?
For me the reason not to play Bob is the fact that the deck is way slower than Jund. Missing Bolt, Command and Ravine (and BBE is added now as well) is bigger than you think. The counter attack is more difficult.
Grabbing an Assassin's Trophy sooner (because of Bob) might be enough reason. Though, it doesn't change the fact that the deck is slow.
I'm on board with Bob for a few reasons. First, basically every competitive Abzan (light splash)/BG Rock list in the past year has either been the Abzan Traverse list, or the 3-4 Bob list. This suggests to me there is something fundamentally competitive about his inclusion, and it validates many of the theories behind why Bob is good.
Second, we need a way to keep up with opponents who get a basic off Trophy. That ramp is not trivial, especially against the decks that Trophy is best against like Tron. T1 discard into T2 Trophy into T3 Lily into T4 Bob/Souls FB is the kind of curve that ensures we close out a Tron game without losing the topdeck war.
I disagree with an abundance of two mana spells. To me drawing a hand of two lands and a mix of creatures/removal/discard means you can sequence your plays so that something like flayer comes down as a 4/4. Or a bob resolves and you are in top deck mode. Importantly all these 1-2 mana spells allow for double spell turns which is key to getting ahead.
This is exactly why Goyf/Bob/Flayers/Treetop village are such exciting cards in GBx. Dropping a Bob T2 after discarding their removal has won me a ton of games and having a new "Remove anything" card that costs only 2 is perfect meaning you can keep on doing plays like dropping a tapped Treetop and removing whatever the opponent plays (or a delicious TRON land) and not have to wonder if you rather have a discard on T1, Bob on T2 or Tracker on T3.
Manlands make us loose velocity naturally, and packing the deck with 3-4 drops doesn't help. We need to start generating advantage or pressure on T2, always.
I also like the heavy low-drop gameplan because it gives us lots of options in T1-T3, and it allows us to hold up answers while still deploying threats on T4+. This is why I really can't envision a world where I'm playing Rhino; tapping out T4/T5 for Rhino means we can't leverage instant-speed Decay or Trophy. Tracker feels like the best high-end threat we can be playing, as it gives us more to do with instant-speed mana, punishes opposing Trophies that don't target Tracker, gives us something to do in the mid-to-late game, and turns the corner almost as fast as Rhino (potentially faster with some spent mana).
With the addition of Trophy does that mean Bob can be a staple in Abzan now? I remember the argument was that the overall CMC of the deck was too high and that was the reason why Bob was always left out. Also, do we go into the old Noble Hierarch/ Flayer Builds of old?
For me the reason not to play Bob is the fact that the deck is way slower than Jund. Missing Bolt, Command and Ravine (and BBE is added now as well) is bigger than you think. The counter attack is more difficult.
Grabbing an Assassin's Trophy sooner (because of Bob) might be enough reason. Though, it doesn't change the fact that the deck is slow.
I'm on board with Bob for a few reasons. First, basically every competitive Abzan (light splash)/BG Rock list in the past year has either been the Abzan Traverse list, or the 3-4 Bob list. This suggests to me there is something fundamentally competitive about his inclusion, and it validates many of the theories behind why Bob is good.
Second, we need a way to keep up with opponents who get a basic off Trophy. That ramp is not trivial, especially against the decks that Trophy is best against like Tron. T1 discard into T2 Trophy into T3 Lily into T4 Bob/Souls FB is the kind of curve that ensures we close out a Tron game without losing the topdeck war.
I disagree with an abundance of two mana spells. To me drawing a hand of two lands and a mix of creatures/removal/discard means you can sequence your plays so that something like flayer comes down as a 4/4. Or a bob resolves and you are in top deck mode. Importantly all these 1-2 mana spells allow for double spell turns which is key to getting ahead.
This is exactly why Goyf/Bob/Flayers/Treetop village are such exciting cards in GBx. Dropping a Bob T2 after discarding their removal has won me a ton of games and having a new "Remove anything" card that costs only 2 is perfect meaning you can keep on doing plays like dropping a tapped Treetop and removing whatever the opponent plays (or a delicious TRON land) and not have to wonder if you rather have a discard on T1, Bob on T2 or Tracker on T3.
Manlands make us loose velocity naturally, and packing the deck with 3-4 drops doesn't help. We need to start generating advantage or pressure on T2, always.
I also like the heavy low-drop gameplan because it gives us lots of options in T1-T3, and it allows us to hold up answers while still deploying threats on T4+. This is why I really can't envision a world where I'm playing Rhino; tapping out T4/T5 for Rhino means we can't leverage instant-speed Decay or Trophy. Tracker feels like the best high-end threat we can be playing, as it gives us more to do with instant-speed mana, punishes opposing Trophies that don't target Tracker, gives us something to do in the mid-to-late game, and turns the corner almost as fast as Rhino (potentially faster with some spent mana).
I actually play 1 Rhino, because I love the card, and also because it steals games once in a while,giving me the reach I need to finish off a control player. Since my list plays 3 Treetops and 3 Flayers, I often get extra chip dmg over chump blockers pressuring my opponents life total enough for the Rhino to matter later on.
I value the Grim Flayer trample dmg and card advantage triggers more than a slightly bigger vanilla body from the Goyf. The delirium Flayer will still trade vs Hollow ones and random big guys, which I generally want to be doing since we often are not the beatdown, so trading is good. The trample dmg is also a big advantage in races agaisnt wider decks, where Goyf is hard to manage. Also, people often see Grim as a "must kill" before getting triggers, just like old Bob but Goyf can just be chump blocked until they find the answer. Once Bob or Grim get going, our chances of winning the game spike real high. My creature split is :
4 Bob
3 Flayer
2 Goyf
2 Scooze
1 Tracker
1 Rhino
Since my list was already packed with 3 PtE, i just added 3 Trophies to replace the 2x Decays and 1 of my 2 Pulses. The 4th Trophy will be in my sideboard, replacing 1 of my fulinator mages since I don't think they will be required anymore.
It might seem crazy, but I feel like Abzan just changed from "Unplayed" to "Best deck in the format" overnight lol.
Is it just me, or does her +2 and her ultimate each have rather insane synergy with Lingering Souls?
What if we run a build consisting of 2 Liliana, Last hope + 3 Vraska, QoG? In addition to the mad lingering soul synergy, VQoG can also sac bob if we are too low in life to GAIN LIFE and draw cards! Also... assuming we cut 1-2 abrupt decays to accommodate the extra Assasin's trophy, this Vraska sort of provides additional abrupt decay, just in case we need it.
Was thinking about March of the Multitudes but pretty sure the 2w mana requirement might be too harsh and it's not exactly suitable for our game plan involving graveyard. Lingering souls (4x?) are much better in that regard.
Is bitterblossom a possibility alongside the new vraska? seems like they go hand in hand, plus it powers up goyf with enchantment and tribal. (and delirium if you go that route, or lets you cast death's shadow quicker if you go that way)
Is it just me, or does her +2 and her ultimate each have rather insane synergy with Lingering Souls?
What if we run a build consisting of 2 Liliana, Last hope + 3 Vraska, QoG? In addition to the mad lingering soul synergy, VQoG can also sac bob if we are too low in life to GAIN LIFE and draw cards! Also... assuming we cut 1-2 abrupt decays to accommodate the extra Assasin's trophy, this Vraska sort of provides additional abrupt decay, just in case we need it.
Was thinking about March of the Multitudes but pretty sure the 2w mana requirement might be too harsh and it's not exactly suitable for our game plan involving graveyard. Lingering souls (4x?) are much better in that regard.
Is bitterblossom a possibility alongside the new vraska? seems like they go hand in hand, plus it powers up goyf with enchantment and tribal. (and delirium if you go that route, or lets you cast death's shadow quicker if you go that way)
I think you guys are both barking up the right tree in terms of finding synergies with Vraska. She’s a clean and high-value out to our own Bob if he gets out of control, Souls is one of her best enablers, and Bitterblossom also shines alongside her while being a tempting inclusion its own right. She also can make Clues more efficient, insured against flood, and can even cash in a used LoTV if you have another one in hand. That’s all undeniably true.
That said, this is all beginning to sound like we’re treating Vraska as a build-around card, which may be a little premature. If we consider a game without her down and doing her thing, Bitterblossoms, Bobs, and arguably even 4x Souls begins to sound like a deck that strains the life total to its limits yet lacks the ruthlessness to close out games—especially when we consider that Trophy will probably make us want to increase our overall removal count by at least one, even after cutting other cards.
All of these ideas are great and worth testing; my advice is just know what you’re getting into when you go that deep into these synergies. Making Vraska a core component of the deck could work, but my hunch is that she'll be best utilized as a one-of in the side, taking advantage of the natural synergies the deck provides without really building around her. Either way, she’s another exciting one for the card pool!
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Am I the only one not excited about the new vraska? I mean, 4 mana to sacrifice a permanent and draw a card :/ 4 mana decay ...
you should add a discard clause because it would take a removal spell for to get rid of vraska afther the plus and minus ability. but still I think its unexciting, definitely a build around but decks like Jund/Abzan, you don't want to build around.
The new Vraska just screams "B/G/x mirror breaker" to me.
+2 - Mitigates flooding, allows you to sac Clue tokens without paying mana, lets you cash in a Dark Confidant for value, and has the synergies already mentioned with Lingering Souls. The fact that the sacrifice is a may ability means that it's still functional even when you don't have anything that you want to sacrifice. Going up to 6 loyalty the turn she's played is also no joke, and has always been one of the strengths of Nahiri, the Harbinger.
-3 - I'm baffled by people saying that this is "just" Abrupt Decay. Abrupt Decay is an incredible card in the mirror, able to answer all of the commonly played creatures except BBE as well as both 3 CMC Liliana's. The fact that Vraska can kill the Lilianas is a big deal, I would be much less interested in the card if it could only target creatures. While not hitting manlands is a pain, that's also a weakness that both Lilianas share, and something we're already used to dealing with. I think it'll also be somewhat alleviated by Assassin's Trophy.
-9 - While not game-ending on its own, this can put an immense amount of pressure on your opponent to play around. The synergy with Lingering Souls has already been brought up, but two other commonly payed B/G/x cards with evasion are Treetop Village and Grim Flayer, which play very well with this emblem. The fact that you can kill whatever blocks those two creatures to have the trample damage carry over anyway is another boon.
I don't think that Vraska is going to upend the archetype the way that Assassin's Trophy is set up to, but the power level of the card is very real. I think she's at her best in Abzan, strong in B/G, and might be an issue for Jund because they already run a bunch of 4-drops. That being said, she's not a build-around. Playing cards like Bitterblossom to try to get more value out of Vraska is going a step too far when she synergizes very well with what B/G/x decks are already doing.
I mean, he's a bit biased towards to BG rock and always been. So it's no surprise he's advocating BG rock.
So I get that with Assassin’s Trophy and Fatal Push we don’t have a great need for path to exile or lightning bolt, but I think he’s underrating how good Lingering Souls and Bloodbraid Elf are. BBE always gets value out of hitting an AT, and has already generated value if it gets hit by AT, while Souls just laughs at AT. I’m still deciding between Jund and Junk, and really don’t want to consider a version of BG Rock that doesn’t at least splash for souls.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
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I have been off the archetype for a few months so I figured the new meta would be more kind to Batterskull. In hindsight it was a mediocre pick lol but I think it could do work if the format changed a bit. Reading Brightmist's posts, watching a few leagues and seeing some 5-0 lists helped to shape the revised version of my previous list:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Fatal Push
4 Assassin's Trophy
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Swamp
2 Forest
4 Blooming Marsh
2 Hissing Quagmire
2 Treetop Village
1 Damping Sphere
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Duress
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Languish
1 Flaying Tendrils
A few of my match notes from today (vs Elves for 3 sets 2-1, vs Goryo 2-0, vs Hardened Scales 1-1)
Deck is super fun to jam. Felt good playing the Tim Duncan of Modern archetypes lol. I'm not a fan of this high-octane crapshoot where you just try to do your plan A faster than the other guy and then center your board around hate. Finally feels like you can play a deck where punishing the opponent's mistakes and choosing the best lines rewards you the most, without the drawback of playing control and drawing so many dead cards in compromising situations
I don't have the money to build the deck on paper and MTGO but if anyone is willing to do gauntlet testing on Cockatrice feel free to get in touch
I went through the major BGx placements at GP/PT this year looking for some guidance on the Flayer/threat suit issue. I'm including Souls, manlands, and any Flayer enablers like Spellbom. Not posting Jund results here because that's obviously a different beast due to BBE (also, it has its own thread). Here are some findings:
PT Rix
Reid Duke's Abzan at 8-1-1 in Modern and in overall T8 (4 Goyf, 4 Bob, 2 Ooze, 2 Flayer, 1 Tracker, 3 Souls, 2 Spellbomb)
GP Toronto
Lucas Siow's BG Rock at 16th place (4 Goyf, 4 Bob, 2 Ooze, 1 Flayer, 2 Tracker, 1 Spellbomb)
GP Lyon
Marcio Carvalho's Abzan in 2nd (4 Goyf, 4 Bob, 2 Ooze, 2 Flayer, 1 Tracker, 3 Souls, 2 Spellbomb)
Marco de Togni's Abzan in T8 (4 Goyf, 4 Bob, 2 Ooze, 2 Flayer, 1 Tracker, 3 Souls, 2 Spellbomb)
Sepp Jansen's BG Rock in 22nd (4 Goyf, 4 Bob, 3 Ooze, 2 Tracker, 1 Spellbomb)
Elliott Boussard's Abzan in 26th (2 Anafenza, 4 Goyf, 4 Rhino, 4 Hierarch, 2 Ooze, 1 Doran, 4 Souls)
GP Sao Paulo
Leonardo Giucci's Abzan Traverse in T8 (4 Goyf, 4 Flayer, 2 Rhino, 1 Ooze, 4 Souls, 4 Bauble)
So there's a big dearth of non-Jund BGx from 02/2018 through Sao Paulo, and then nothing after. Lots of GP went by without BGx of any kind in either the T8 or even the T16/T32. That's an issue for us to address. Regarding the threat issue, in pre-BBE/JTMS unban times, the Flayer-lite/Spellbomb/Bob package clearly got the nod with the biggest finishes. Afterwards, the paper picture isn't very helpful because the archetype suffers from bad GP/PT results overall with Guicci's as the only exception. The MTGO picture is also not helpful. Abzan and BG Rock have ZERO T32 finishes in any Modern MTGO PTQs from March through present (PTQs being a good indicator due to size and competitiveness). MOCS events are even better indicators, as they are harder to qualify for and generally feature stronger players. These offer a few examples:
05/05/2018 MOCS
Fallleaf's Abzan in 5th (4 Goyf, 3 Bob, 3 Flayer, 2 Ooze, 1 Tracker, 3 Souls)
06/29/2018 MOCS
Fallleaf's Abzan at 6-2 (4 Goyf, 2 Bob, 3 Flayer, 3 Ooze, 1 Tracker, 3 Souls)
Here, we see Bobs and Flayers but no Spellbombs at all. Also, no Baubles and no Traverse package. I really trust Fallleaf's (Akira Tamaki) finishes because he has two solid MOCS finishes from the last 3-4 months (i.e. competitive finishes in a recent metagame), is regularly on the MTGO leaderboard, AND he has a huge history of Abzan success this year: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/player/fallleaf. Interestingly, Fallleaf has switched to the Traverse build from August through present and has been placing exclusively with that package:
Fallleaf's Abzan Traverse package
4 Flayer, 4 Goyf, 1 Ooze, 1 Kalitas, 3 Souls, 4 Bauble (2 Rhino in an 08/07 League)
Overall, it's possible that his new Traverse/Flayer package will become the standard over the older Bob/Flayer/Tracker mix we saw throughout 2018. But the majority of 2018 successes were in that more traditional threat package, which steers me more to that composition. That is also what Duke has been leaning towards in his own content.
We had great discussions with Leonardo Giucci about the traverse build, it basically operates as a normal GBx deck with a slight move into traverse for finding silverbullets. This does solve a lot of the problems a typical GBx deck has to face otherwise: Having the wrong kind of answers at the wrong time. Other than Bob there is no early game card draw tool which GBx decks can realisitcally run, so this is natural to happen. When you include a small traverse package, you can compensate that a little bit. However, the focus is shifted towards the need to reach delirium then. And delirium is also by no means a consistant thing to have. However, if you don't have it, the deck can at least operate as a normal GBx deck in that case, which means you are not completely relying on it (and this is important). Overall the question will be if we need the traverse package going onward when we just can run Trophy now. I am curious to see where its going, but my gut tells me that a classic GB deck splashing minor white cards (Souls, Stony and some other SB cards) will be the best performing now. And may it be just for the simple reason that trophy will also be used against us, which means we have to run a decent amount of basics due to that.
2-0 Jeskai Control - Game 1 was an attrition matchup but i got there. He was playing spell queller main so eventually i got to play all the spells. Game 2 wore his answers down then resolved Gideon. Lights out
2-0 Colorless Eldrazi - Game 1 he had an explosive start with two TKS but i hit the god draw of maelstrom pulse (proof why we still need it :)), Game 2 was a mull to 5 for my opponent. I managed to get an early discard and then blow up one his lands.
2-0 Mardu Pyromancer - Game 1 was a grindy game that I managed to put away thanks to some huge goyfs. Game 2 was an epic game that was won of the back of bitterblossom and scooze controlling my life. I could have died to bolt but played to win.
2-1 Affinity - Game 1 they did their thing and games two and three i did my thing with Stony Silence.
List for reference
3 Blooming Marsh
3 Dark Confidant
3 Path to Exile
1 Forest
1 Treetop Village
1 Godless Shrine
3 Grim Flayer
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Fatal Push
1 Plains
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Shambling Vent
2 Swamp
1 Temple Garden
3 Thoughtseize
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Siege Rhino
1 Damnation
3 Fulminator Mage
3 Stony Silence
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Bitterblossom
1 Flaying Tendrils
It seems clear that basic-heavy and LD-heavy Rock will be looking very attractive once Trophy is printed. It also seems clear that the above with a microsplash for 3 or fewer Souls and 2-4 Stony (making it perfectly viable to not fetch a white land G1 in many matchups) is similarly well positioned on paper.
To me, the biggest question mark right now is how “true” Abzan will look. Is it too greedy to try to leverage a couple Fields or GQs in a list that plays 3-4 Path and 3-4 Trophy main? Would such a list (with or without the colorless LD) be able to support a critical mass of basic lands without the mana becoming too inconsistent? And, it’s never too early to start thinking...will this be the best shell for SFM once she’s free?
Looking forward to everyone’s further thoughts on the archetype. I’ll be playing Turns this weekend at the SCG Open, but once Trophy drops I can’t wait to start jamming Rock and Abzan again.
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4 tracker
4 goyf
3 scooze
2 tasigur
This is exactly why Goyf/Bob/Flayers/Treetop village are such exciting cards in GBx. Dropping a Bob T2 after discarding their removal has won me a ton of games and having a new "Remove anything" card that costs only 2 is perfect meaning you can keep on doing plays like dropping a tapped Treetop and removing whatever the opponent plays (or a delicious TRON land) and not have to wonder if you rather have a discard on T1, Bob on T2 or Tracker on T3.
Manlands make us loose velocity naturally, and packing the deck with 3-4 drops doesn't help. We need to start generating advantage or pressure on T2, always.
BGW - Abzan
Legacy
BG - BG Lands
I'm on board with Bob for a few reasons. First, basically every competitive Abzan (light splash)/BG Rock list in the past year has either been the Abzan Traverse list, or the 3-4 Bob list. This suggests to me there is something fundamentally competitive about his inclusion, and it validates many of the theories behind why Bob is good.
Second, we need a way to keep up with opponents who get a basic off Trophy. That ramp is not trivial, especially against the decks that Trophy is best against like Tron. T1 discard into T2 Trophy into T3 Lily into T4 Bob/Souls FB is the kind of curve that ensures we close out a Tron game without losing the topdeck war.
I also like the heavy low-drop gameplan because it gives us lots of options in T1-T3, and it allows us to hold up answers while still deploying threats on T4+. This is why I really can't envision a world where I'm playing Rhino; tapping out T4/T5 for Rhino means we can't leverage instant-speed Decay or Trophy. Tracker feels like the best high-end threat we can be playing, as it gives us more to do with instant-speed mana, punishes opposing Trophies that don't target Tracker, gives us something to do in the mid-to-late game, and turns the corner almost as fast as Rhino (potentially faster with some spent mana).
I actually play 1 Rhino, because I love the card, and also because it steals games once in a while,giving me the reach I need to finish off a control player. Since my list plays 3 Treetops and 3 Flayers, I often get extra chip dmg over chump blockers pressuring my opponents life total enough for the Rhino to matter later on.
I value the Grim Flayer trample dmg and card advantage triggers more than a slightly bigger vanilla body from the Goyf. The delirium Flayer will still trade vs Hollow ones and random big guys, which I generally want to be doing since we often are not the beatdown, so trading is good. The trample dmg is also a big advantage in races agaisnt wider decks, where Goyf is hard to manage. Also, people often see Grim as a "must kill" before getting triggers, just like old Bob but Goyf can just be chump blocked until they find the answer. Once Bob or Grim get going, our chances of winning the game spike real high. My creature split is :
4 Bob
3 Flayer
2 Goyf
2 Scooze
1 Tracker
1 Rhino
Since my list was already packed with 3 PtE, i just added 3 Trophies to replace the 2x Decays and 1 of my 2 Pulses. The 4th Trophy will be in my sideboard, replacing 1 of my fulinator mages since I don't think they will be required anymore.
It might seem crazy, but I feel like Abzan just changed from "Unplayed" to "Best deck in the format" overnight lol.
BGW - Abzan
Legacy
BG - BG Lands
Is it just me, or does her +2 and her ultimate each have rather insane synergy with Lingering Souls?
Removed leeching image. Remember to use [cardimg] [/cardimg] tags! - Torpf
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She is crazy good when being on topdeck mode in the lategame
She is good when you are ahead or even
She is insanely bad when you are behind.
Overall in my mind a SB card for grindy matchups.
Exactly my thoughts! (Assuming we don’t see a fundamental restructuring of the deck).
The flood insurance on this card is a thing of beauty.
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What if we run a build consisting of 2 Liliana, Last hope + 3 Vraska, QoG? In addition to the mad lingering soul synergy, VQoG can also sac bob if we are too low in life to GAIN LIFE and draw cards! Also... assuming we cut 1-2 abrupt decays to accommodate the extra Assasin's trophy, this Vraska sort of provides additional abrupt decay, just in case we need it.
Was thinking about March of the Multitudes but pretty sure the 2w mana requirement might be too harsh and it's not exactly suitable for our game plan involving graveyard. Lingering souls (4x?) are much better in that regard.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
I think you guys are both barking up the right tree in terms of finding synergies with Vraska. She’s a clean and high-value out to our own Bob if he gets out of control, Souls is one of her best enablers, and Bitterblossom also shines alongside her while being a tempting inclusion its own right. She also can make Clues more efficient, insured against flood, and can even cash in a used LoTV if you have another one in hand. That’s all undeniably true.
That said, this is all beginning to sound like we’re treating Vraska as a build-around card, which may be a little premature. If we consider a game without her down and doing her thing, Bitterblossoms, Bobs, and arguably even 4x Souls begins to sound like a deck that strains the life total to its limits yet lacks the ruthlessness to close out games—especially when we consider that Trophy will probably make us want to increase our overall removal count by at least one, even after cutting other cards.
All of these ideas are great and worth testing; my advice is just know what you’re getting into when you go that deep into these synergies. Making Vraska a core component of the deck could work, but my hunch is that she'll be best utilized as a one-of in the side, taking advantage of the natural synergies the deck provides without really building around her. Either way, she’s another exciting one for the card pool!
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you should add a discard clause because it would take a removal spell for to get rid of vraska afther the plus and minus ability. but still I think its unexciting, definitely a build around but decks like Jund/Abzan, you don't want to build around.
+2 - Mitigates flooding, allows you to sac Clue tokens without paying mana, lets you cash in a Dark Confidant for value, and has the synergies already mentioned with Lingering Souls. The fact that the sacrifice is a may ability means that it's still functional even when you don't have anything that you want to sacrifice. Going up to 6 loyalty the turn she's played is also no joke, and has always been one of the strengths of Nahiri, the Harbinger.
-3 - I'm baffled by people saying that this is "just" Abrupt Decay. Abrupt Decay is an incredible card in the mirror, able to answer all of the commonly played creatures except BBE as well as both 3 CMC Liliana's. The fact that Vraska can kill the Lilianas is a big deal, I would be much less interested in the card if it could only target creatures. While not hitting manlands is a pain, that's also a weakness that both Lilianas share, and something we're already used to dealing with. I think it'll also be somewhat alleviated by Assassin's Trophy.
-9 - While not game-ending on its own, this can put an immense amount of pressure on your opponent to play around. The synergy with Lingering Souls has already been brought up, but two other commonly payed B/G/x cards with evasion are Treetop Village and Grim Flayer, which play very well with this emblem. The fact that you can kill whatever blocks those two creatures to have the trample damage carry over anyway is another boon.
I don't think that Vraska is going to upend the archetype the way that Assassin's Trophy is set up to, but the power level of the card is very real. I think she's at her best in Abzan, strong in B/G, and might be an issue for Jund because they already run a bunch of 4-drops. That being said, she's not a build-around. Playing cards like Bitterblossom to try to get more value out of Vraska is going a step too far when she synergizes very well with what B/G/x decks are already doing.
So I get that with Assassin’s Trophy and Fatal Push we don’t have a great need for path to exile or lightning bolt, but I think he’s underrating how good Lingering Souls and Bloodbraid Elf are. BBE always gets value out of hitting an AT, and has already generated value if it gets hit by AT, while Souls just laughs at AT. I’m still deciding between Jund and Junk, and really don’t want to consider a version of BG Rock that doesn’t at least splash for souls.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB