Its an option but I think its not something what I would want. I want a sweeper which is efficient for its mana cost to handle everything on the board, especially when its 4 mana and the modern decks are full of big growing creatures. Basically if you compare this to a damnation or Languish you are sacrificing killing power for some mana generation. Potentially this could be a net 1 mana -3/-3 on everything, which is nice, but the problem is it only comes down on turn 4. And it requires you to have a card to cast in hand already. This should be a very underperforming sweeper for the opportunity cost (which is always 4 mana) but it has some potential higher ceiling tempo wise. Overall I am more interesting in more efficient sweeper-effects than tempo generation, especially when the tempo you gain is very inconsistant (as it depends on what you have in hand).
There's recently been a shift at my LGS in which there is such an overwhelming presence of UW and UWr control that I honestly should just switch to a different deck to succeed. But being stubborn I decided I'd switch up the list a little to the point where it might have a fighting chance in the matchup. It's very possible that this version is just trying to do too many things for it to function properly. Not entirely sure. A notable exclusion is my dropping lingering souls. Honestly, I love the card and cutting it is probably silly, but I figure there's no need for extra grind power, and I guess I have to sacrifice something to make room for a reanimation package. Might be the wrong sacrifice, though. I do however like the idea of the reanimation package, as it gives standard Abzan a much better matchup against any Midrange or Control matchups in the format.
If i'm being entirely honest, I just find the concept incredibly sweet and would love for it to work. Anyone got any input for changes that you'd make?
My apologies if this doesn't entirely belong in this forum, as it is a deviation from the standard abzan rock lists. If that is the case, give me a heads up and i'll delete the post promptly
I think a couple Unburial Rites aren't terribly unreasonable though it certainly is a different plan. Maybe the hate creature package (like Iona) belongs only in the sideboard? I've seen deck lists like this work where they also use maybe 2-3 Restoration Angel. Something like:
I've seen the addition of Resto before, but I honestly don't see what it brings to the deck. First and foremost here are only 3 targets, despite that the card is powerful on its own, but I also don't see which negative matchups it helps. Maybe i'm wrong, results would certainly suggest so.
Rest of the list looks streamlined and sweet, and yeah, you're probably right about shoving Iona (maybe just an Elesh Norn instead?) in the board.
IMO if you run Elesh Norn then you Really really want Lingering Souls.
Restoration Angel can turn a tapped Tarmogoyf into a blocker. Or she can save a pre-delirium Flayer from a Lightning bolt. Maybe she is a little underwhelming and just not worth it. I feel like she wants to be played alongside Thragtusk too which might be too much to fit into one deck
I finally got to play my first league with Assassin's Trophy last night. I went 2-3 overall, losing to U/G Hardened Scales (not sure what the blue was for), Bant Spirits, and Scapeshift, beating Storm and Blue Moon. The deck is much better than my record indicates, and I'm still learning the Hardened Scales and Spirits matchups. I also only have access to 1 Surgical Extraction online, which is important in the Scapeshift matchup.
Some brief explanations:
- I swapped the 4th Treetop Village for a 5th fetchland. 4 taplands is just too many, and Tracker is happier with another fetch anyway. Up until the BBE unbanning, Jund very commonly played 3 Raging Ravine, which always felt to me like the right number of manlands.
- I dropped Flaying Tendrils and Natural State in the sideboard for a second Darkblast and a pair of Disfigure. I have no idea if this is correct, but I want to see if the creature matchups become easier with access to more 1-mana removal spells. While Disfigure isn't exactly a Modern all-star, I didn't want to play more than 2 Darkblast because they don't seem great in multiples, and I just couldn't think of a better 1-mana black removal spell. It can also kill things through Welding Jar and Selfless Spirit, which is relevant. My current sideboard plan against Spirits/Scales/Humans would be -2 Thoughtseize, -2 LotV, and -1 Confidant all the time, and -1 more Confidant on the draw vs -1 Inquisition on the play.
- I swapped Vraska, Golgari Queen for the second Kitchen Finks. This isn't a knock against Vraska, I just want to focus on refining the overall list before testing individual new cards, and Finks is extremely solid.
In general, I really liked my maindeck outside of some clunky mana issues that I've hopefully addressed. The deck was extremely dominant in the matches that I won, the Blue Moon matchup almost felt like a bye because it was so easy for me to answer my opponent's threats and so hard for them to answer mine. I can't promise that this is the best list for Assassin's Trophy, but it's at least not the worst.
I know there was a successful list running 4 Treetop and FoR, but I think in the long run this manabase is too inconsistant. Even with 3 Treetops only. Now you got 15 black sources, which is just way to few. If you want to run FoR, then in my opinion there is no way around Hissing Quagmire, just for the black mana. This is especially the case if you run 6 Lilis as well as 2 Kalitas in your 75.
For the rest, the list looks really promising. Not sure you need 2 additional Pulses though. The extra removal spells in the SB seem interesting, which you run essentially over Damnations for example. Trophy as a card makes Surgical great, but I think only having Surgical for Dredge (which I expect to have a small resurgance due to the new card they got Creeping Chill) as well as Hollow One and Bridgevine etc. might be too low impact.
That was the list that I initially based mine on, and I was a little dubious about that mana base as well. I've probably played about a dozen matches with that mana base, and my issue was more with taplands than a lack of black sources. I do think that with how black-heavy my sideboard is, I may end up needing to swap the third Treetop Village with a Hissing Quagmire, but Quagmire is just so much worse as a manland that I'm only going to do it if I find myself consistently having issues getting enough black sources. I would probably try replacing the 5th fetch with a Twilight Mire before I added Quagmire, but that can be real rough alongside 4 Field of Ruin. It's really unfortunate that the dual-colored manland cycle was finished in one of the weakest Standard sets in recent history, I really wish we could have seen them at a power level more in line with Kaladesh/Dominaria/Guilds of Ravnica.
I think Pulse is still a great card, and I'm not really sure what I'd run instead (I do not like Brutality maindeck). The fact that my list runs no sweepers leaves me a little more vulnerable to go-wide and token strategies, which Pulse is decent against. I think my list has a lot of ways to deal with Lingering Souls, in particular.
I'm really interested in playing against the graveyard decks you mentioned, because those are three matchups where Flaying Tendrils really shines over the single-target removal spells I'm running. I'm hoping that the combination of Surgical, 3 Ooze, and 2 Kalitas is good enough, but I'm not really sure. Most of my experience against those decks is with Grixis Shadow, which runs a totally different gameplan.
I understand the concern about black sources, but treetop improves the UW control matchup, planeswalkers in general and Lingering souls that I believe is worth it. What do you think about Garruk Relentless? This was a Dark confidant, just like Majors' list but I did not see it enough early game to make an impact.
@DeFish Its definitely a big downgrad manland-wise from treetop to quagmire, given that treetop is the best GBx manland probably. Its a pity, maybe in the future we see a new cycle of those manlands which provides an upgrade. You can also make a compromize by going down to 2 Treetops as well as 3 FoR and add acouple of more black sources. If you get to say 17, its still too few, but it would be a good compromise in theory.
I understand the concern about black sources, but treetop improves the UW control matchup, planeswalkers in general and Lingering souls that I believe is worth it. What do you think about Garruk Relentless? This was a Dark confidant, just like Majors' list but I did not see it enough early game to make an impact.
Its not only the black sources, its the green ones as well. By running 4 FoR and 4 Swamps you naturally play 16 green sources only in a 24 landbase. I think 4 FoR might be too greedy overall probably. I would go for 3 copies due to that. I personally would want at least 17 clean sources of both colours. Like for black you run 4 Lilis, 1 Bontus, 1 Damnation, 1 Languish and 1 Kalitas in your 75 with only 15 black sources. However, which should be added, the FoR could potentially be added as black/green sources when it comes down to CMC 4 cards, since you can FoR on turn 3 to get a basic. However, its definitely not a clean colour source. Twilight Mire does also seem very unrealiable alongside 4 FoR for me. Opening hands which have perfect spells but contain only 1 FoR and 1 Mire feel very bad to mulligan. And in addition you run 2 Damping Sphere in your SB, which is an additional nonbo. I would cut it for that reasons.
I really like Nissa in the SB, I think I will also run her in my version. Not sure about Garruk. 4 Mana for a PW which does not uptick right away and only has 3 loyality seems quite low impact. Like you pretty much can only make a token when you play him since you don't want to trade him for a 3 power creature.
I think so. The funny thing that I have found is that Tireless Tracker does Lingering Souls' job, but often better. Obviously souls is better against some things (counters/discard) but tracker is better at applying pressure and it doesnt require you to splash a color. Instead you get to play 6-7 basics and 3-4 field of ruin.
Normally you trade some power for consistency, but I think BG rock has both. You really dont gain much from the splash, but you gain a lot of consistency from just staying 2 colors. Field+Trophy is solid gameplan, Tracker (as mentioned) covers Lingering Souls' spot quite well and mainboard brutality is totally reasonable for your last few removal slots and it also helps against burn and combo.
In terms of sideboard cards, white brings stony silence and now knight of autumn. Damping sphere is a pretty solid colorless hate permanent although it doesnt touch affinity. (Need to test that matchup). Knight seems great, but at this point we are grasping at reasons for the splash.
The biggest thing I think BG loses from a splash is actually a good 2 color manland. Quagmire is awful. Treetop is great, but even 2 color cant support 4 Treetops (twilight mire maybe?)
In addition to what's been stated, I think that Lingering Souls is actually overrated as a grindy card and that a lot of it's reputation comes from before Twin was banned. When I started playing Jund (the fall before the Twin ban), the midrange decks at that time did have a very hard time dealing with Souls. Jund only played a single Maelstrom Pulse and 1-2 Anger of the Gods in the sideboard while Twin/Jeskai/Grixis played some number of Electrolyze but that still wasn't quite enough. In that meta, a single flashbacked Lingering Souls would often take so many resources to fully address that resolving a second one would just put your opponent in a position where they needed to race. It's very hard to beat Lingering Souls with 1-off spells, which is still true today.
Then they printed Liliana, the Last Hope, which is a brutal card to face down when you're trying to cast Souls. I think things have gotten even worse for Souls in B/G/x mirrors with the unbanning of BBE and the widespread inclusion of Treetop Village in all flavors of B/G/x.
Even outside of B/G/x mirrors, Souls has lost equity. The current builds of U/W and Jeskai run more sweepers than the Snapcaster control decks of the aforementioned era, which leads you to not want to flashback Souls too aggressively. However, the planeswalkers those decks play have to be answered immediately, which puts more pressure on you to want to have a strong battlefield presence. The planeswalker issue gets better with the printing of Assassin's Trophy, but that still doesn't change how their answers line up against Souls. Cards like Thalia and Mausoleum Wanderer also make it clunkier against some of the more popular creature decks in the format right now.
The real final nail in the Lingering Souls coffin for me was Tireless Tracker, which is so good that people are experimenting with it as a replacement for Dark Confidant.
All of that being said, Souls is still a fine card, but I think it's just fine, and that we have better options now.
Thanks for the insight, all of you.
I think I am going to lean back on the Rock side of the fence for now.
Here is the list I am currently planning to run: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1370606#paper
Thoughts? The SB is a VERY rough draft, I was honestly running out of ideas.
I have a playset of Fulminators that I am hoping to sell; that's why I don't have any in SB.
Haven't sold them yet though, just in case they become a necessity in BG or Abzan.
What non dark confidant does people run for card advantage? I do not like the 'race' part of dark c. With assa t. we have much better staying power. Are tasigurs back in style? Are there anu other card advantages I am missing? Lilliana the last hope? Grim flayers for selection?
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What non dark confidant does people run for card advantage? I do not like the 'race' part of dark c. With assa t. we have much better staying power. Are tasigurs back in style? Are there anu other card advantages I am missing? Lilliana the last hope? Grim flayers for selection?
You talking about Abzan or Rock?
LtLH is a staple in the deck and imo should be a 2 of in the 75. Common is a 1-1 split between main and side but I also like 2 main personally.
Tasigur can be run if you don't run bobs, but I think Bobs are still great.
Abzan and Rock usually plays Tireless Tracker as a similar card like BBE in Jund. This is a staple as of now. Its an endgame creature for max grind. You can play bob alongside it or not. You can run Flayer over Bob but it usually requires some help and its very unreliable. Sometimes you can see 2 supporting copies to round out the creature base also.
Thabks for the awnsers. IMHO jund runs goyf, bob, ooze and bbe. Jund does not need or have the room for tracker. Instead they run k commamd and walkers as their 3 drops. K command also functions as a versatile catch all, tempo and card advantahe. There Bob makes a lot of sence because you are also running the tempo angle with bolts and bbe. Tracker, while good, is very hard to fit in that deck.
But I have not been a fan of bob in abzan and/or rock. Both of these decks have an inheret grindyness to them that bob jeperdice every time you run into some form of agro. Against burn for instance you do not want to see bob. (I find burn quite challenging with BGx. Post bord they often run relics that hurt our abilaty tonapply preasure even more.) Also the draws that contain shock lands + thoughtsieze + bob are just brutal. Even celestial colonad decks enjoy us going low on life.
Instead I want to make a deck with 3(!) thoughtsiezes instead of 2, along 4 inquesitions. The deck probably needs some grim flayers to get consistent 2 drops. (Yes that means some baubles or spellbombs.) And to topp it off we need some grindy card draw. But 4 tierless tracker feels to little. The deck would need 6 or 7 card advantage engines. (And I am not just talking about how tarmagoyf trades into smaller creatures.)
Traditionally such a grindy aproach has been terrible vs UW controll and Tron. Also GB are very dependent upon the graveyeard. (A post board rest in pice really hurt us). But 4 assassassins throphy will help with all of this. (Mayby you run malestorm pulse.) Our agro match ups gets much better. And we might be abel to grind to an insane amaunt. (In old extended I have volraths stronghold + eternal witness that made insane grinds. I miss the good old days.)
Thoughts?
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If you're not playing Bob you can play Tasigur. I think that with 2 Liliana Last Hope, 2 Tasigur, and the 4 Trackers we are good on the grind/card advantage. He also can act as goyf 5 and 6. I don't want to play Dark Confidant. I think we can outgrind most decks in game 1 and instead would rather have additional tools against UW in the sideboard. Playing Confidant seems like an unnecessary risk.
I don't always agree with him, but I've been watching Hoogland's stream and I actually really like his approach to the deck overall. This is his current 75:
I'm playing something very similar. My personal changes are very small: -1 Swamp +1 Black Fetch, -1 Ooze +1 Liliana of the Veil, -1 Dismember +1 Flaying Tendrils.
With this in minds the only card you lose with playing BG Rock instead of Abzan is Stony Silence which is admittedly very good card right now and the only reason I would consider playing Abzan over BG Rock.
Just run a singleton Godless Shrine for them out of the board?
If i'm being entirely honest, I just find the concept incredibly sweet and would love for it to work. Anyone got any input for changes that you'd make?
List: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/12-01-18-HUj-abzan-rites/?cb=1538351733
My apologies if this doesn't entirely belong in this forum, as it is a deviation from the standard abzan rock lists. If that is the case, give me a heads up and i'll delete the post promptly
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Flayer
3 Siege Rhino
2 Restoration Angel
Spells (21)
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Collective Brutality
3 Fatal Push
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Path to Exile
3 Unburial Rites
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Liliana of the veil
Lands (20)
3 Blooming Marsh
4 Verdant catacombs
3 Marsh flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Treetop Village
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
Seems like you still want Lingering Souls but just no room
Draft My Cube!
Rest of the list looks streamlined and sweet, and yeah, you're probably right about shoving Iona (maybe just an Elesh Norn instead?) in the board.
Restoration Angel can turn a tapped Tarmogoyf into a blocker. Or she can save a pre-delirium Flayer from a Lightning bolt. Maybe she is a little underwhelming and just not worth it. I feel like she wants to be played alongside Thragtusk too which might be too much to fit into one deck
Draft My Cube!
I've slowly come to the conclusion that I don't want to rely on 3-4 CMC spells against the current creature decks because they're extremely difficult to resolve through Mausoleum Wanderer, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Spell Queller, Meddling Mage, and Kitesail Freebooter. I'm looking to try a different approach, which led me to tweak my list to this:
4x Blooming Marsh
4x Field of Ruin
2x Forest
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Polluted Delta
4x Swamp
3x Treetop Village
4x Verdant Catacombs
Instant (8)
4x Assassin's Trophy
4x Fatal Push
4x Dark Confidant
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Tireless Tracker
Sorcery (8)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Thoughtseize
Planeswalker (6)
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Choke
2x Collective Brutality
2x Darkblast
2x Disfigure
1x Duress
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Surgical Extraction
Some brief explanations:
- I swapped the 4th Treetop Village for a 5th fetchland. 4 taplands is just too many, and Tracker is happier with another fetch anyway. Up until the BBE unbanning, Jund very commonly played 3 Raging Ravine, which always felt to me like the right number of manlands.
- I dropped Flaying Tendrils and Natural State in the sideboard for a second Darkblast and a pair of Disfigure. I have no idea if this is correct, but I want to see if the creature matchups become easier with access to more 1-mana removal spells. While Disfigure isn't exactly a Modern all-star, I didn't want to play more than 2 Darkblast because they don't seem great in multiples, and I just couldn't think of a better 1-mana black removal spell. It can also kill things through Welding Jar and Selfless Spirit, which is relevant. My current sideboard plan against Spirits/Scales/Humans would be -2 Thoughtseize, -2 LotV, and -1 Confidant all the time, and -1 more Confidant on the draw vs -1 Inquisition on the play.
- I swapped Vraska, Golgari Queen for the second Kitchen Finks. This isn't a knock against Vraska, I just want to focus on refining the overall list before testing individual new cards, and Finks is extremely solid.
In general, I really liked my maindeck outside of some clunky mana issues that I've hopefully addressed. The deck was extremely dominant in the matches that I won, the Blue Moon matchup almost felt like a bye because it was so easy for me to answer my opponent's threats and so hard for them to answer mine. I can't promise that this is the best list for Assassin's Trophy, but it's at least not the worst.
For the rest, the list looks really promising. Not sure you need 2 additional Pulses though. The extra removal spells in the SB seem interesting, which you run essentially over Damnations for example. Trophy as a card makes Surgical great, but I think only having Surgical for Dredge (which I expect to have a small resurgance due to the new card they got Creeping Chill) as well as Hollow One and Bridgevine etc. might be too low impact.
I think Pulse is still a great card, and I'm not really sure what I'd run instead (I do not like Brutality maindeck). The fact that my list runs no sweepers leaves me a little more vulnerable to go-wide and token strategies, which Pulse is decent against. I think my list has a lot of ways to deal with Lingering Souls, in particular.
I'm really interested in playing against the graveyard decks you mentioned, because those are three matchups where Flaying Tendrils really shines over the single-target removal spells I'm running. I'm hoping that the combination of Surgical, 3 Ooze, and 2 Kalitas is good enough, but I'm not really sure. Most of my experience against those decks is with Grixis Shadow, which runs a totally different gameplan.
3x Blooming Marsh
1x Urborg, Tomb of yawgmoth
4x Field of Ruin
2x Forest
2x Overgrown Tomb
4x Swamp
4x Treetop Village
1x Twilight Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs
Instant (8)
4x Assassin's Trophy
4x Fatal Push
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4x Tireless Tracker
Sorcery (10)
2x Collective Brutality
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Thoughtseize
Planeswalker (5)
1x Garruk Relentless
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Bontu's Last Reckoning
1x Damnation
2x Damping Sphere
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Golgari Charm
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1x Languish
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Nissa, Vital Force
2x Obstinate Baloth
2x Surgical Extraction
I understand the concern about black sources, but treetop improves the UW control matchup, planeswalkers in general and Lingering souls that I believe is worth it. What do you think about Garruk Relentless? This was a Dark confidant, just like Majors' list but I did not see it enough early game to make an impact.
Something like:
3 FoR
4 swamp
2 Forest
2 Treetop
1 Quagmire
4 verdant
2 Delta
4 Marsh
2 Tomb
The second delta can also be a second quagmire or a twilight mire, which I think is a little dicey though with FoR, as you mentioned as well.
By making these changes, you also increase the green sources from 16 to 17, which is also important for casting Finks out of the board.
Its not only the black sources, its the green ones as well. By running 4 FoR and 4 Swamps you naturally play 16 green sources only in a 24 landbase. I think 4 FoR might be too greedy overall probably. I would go for 3 copies due to that. I personally would want at least 17 clean sources of both colours. Like for black you run 4 Lilis, 1 Bontus, 1 Damnation, 1 Languish and 1 Kalitas in your 75 with only 15 black sources. However, which should be added, the FoR could potentially be added as black/green sources when it comes down to CMC 4 cards, since you can FoR on turn 3 to get a basic. However, its definitely not a clean colour source. Twilight Mire does also seem very unrealiable alongside 4 FoR for me. Opening hands which have perfect spells but contain only 1 FoR and 1 Mire feel very bad to mulligan. And in addition you run 2 Damping Sphere in your SB, which is an additional nonbo. I would cut it for that reasons.
I really like Nissa in the SB, I think I will also run her in my version. Not sure about Garruk. 4 Mana for a PW which does not uptick right away and only has 3 loyality seems quite low impact. Like you pretty much can only make a token when you play him since you don't want to trade him for a 3 power creature.
Normally you trade some power for consistency, but I think BG rock has both. You really dont gain much from the splash, but you gain a lot of consistency from just staying 2 colors. Field+Trophy is solid gameplan, Tracker (as mentioned) covers Lingering Souls' spot quite well and mainboard brutality is totally reasonable for your last few removal slots and it also helps against burn and combo.
In terms of sideboard cards, white brings stony silence and now knight of autumn. Damping sphere is a pretty solid colorless hate permanent although it doesnt touch affinity. (Need to test that matchup). Knight seems great, but at this point we are grasping at reasons for the splash.
The biggest thing I think BG loses from a splash is actually a good 2 color manland. Quagmire is awful. Treetop is great, but even 2 color cant support 4 Treetops (twilight mire maybe?)
Then they printed Liliana, the Last Hope, which is a brutal card to face down when you're trying to cast Souls. I think things have gotten even worse for Souls in B/G/x mirrors with the unbanning of BBE and the widespread inclusion of Treetop Village in all flavors of B/G/x.
Even outside of B/G/x mirrors, Souls has lost equity. The current builds of U/W and Jeskai run more sweepers than the Snapcaster control decks of the aforementioned era, which leads you to not want to flashback Souls too aggressively. However, the planeswalkers those decks play have to be answered immediately, which puts more pressure on you to want to have a strong battlefield presence. The planeswalker issue gets better with the printing of Assassin's Trophy, but that still doesn't change how their answers line up against Souls. Cards like Thalia and Mausoleum Wanderer also make it clunkier against some of the more popular creature decks in the format right now.
The real final nail in the Lingering Souls coffin for me was Tireless Tracker, which is so good that people are experimenting with it as a replacement for Dark Confidant.
All of that being said, Souls is still a fine card, but I think it's just fine, and that we have better options now.
I think I am going to lean back on the Rock side of the fence for now.
Here is the list I am currently planning to run:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1370606#paper
Thoughts? The SB is a VERY rough draft, I was honestly running out of ideas.
I have a playset of Fulminators that I am hoping to sell; that's why I don't have any in SB.
Haven't sold them yet though, just in case they become a necessity in BG or Abzan.
You talking about Abzan or Rock?
LtLH is a staple in the deck and imo should be a 2 of in the 75. Common is a 1-1 split between main and side but I also like 2 main personally.
Tasigur can be run if you don't run bobs, but I think Bobs are still great.
Abzan and Rock usually plays Tireless Tracker as a similar card like BBE in Jund. This is a staple as of now. Its an endgame creature for max grind. You can play bob alongside it or not. You can run Flayer over Bob but it usually requires some help and its very unreliable. Sometimes you can see 2 supporting copies to round out the creature base also.
But I have not been a fan of bob in abzan and/or rock. Both of these decks have an inheret grindyness to them that bob jeperdice every time you run into some form of agro. Against burn for instance you do not want to see bob. (I find burn quite challenging with BGx. Post bord they often run relics that hurt our abilaty tonapply preasure even more.) Also the draws that contain shock lands + thoughtsieze + bob are just brutal. Even celestial colonad decks enjoy us going low on life.
Instead I want to make a deck with 3(!) thoughtsiezes instead of 2, along 4 inquesitions. The deck probably needs some grim flayers to get consistent 2 drops. (Yes that means some baubles or spellbombs.) And to topp it off we need some grindy card draw. But 4 tierless tracker feels to little. The deck would need 6 or 7 card advantage engines. (And I am not just talking about how tarmagoyf trades into smaller creatures.)
Traditionally such a grindy aproach has been terrible vs UW controll and Tron. Also GB are very dependent upon the graveyeard. (A post board rest in pice really hurt us). But 4 assassassins throphy will help with all of this. (Mayby you run malestorm pulse.) Our agro match ups gets much better. And we might be abel to grind to an insane amaunt. (In old extended I have volraths stronghold + eternal witness that made insane grinds. I miss the good old days.)
Thoughts?
I don't always agree with him, but I've been watching Hoogland's stream and I actually really like his approach to the deck overall. This is his current 75:
4 Tireless Tracker
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Fatal Push
4 Assassin's Trophy
3 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Collective Brutality
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Blooming Marsh
3 Hissing Quagmire
2 Treetop Village
3 Field of Ruin
2 Overgrown Tomb
5 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Collective Brutality
3 Damping Sphere
2 Languish
2 Nissa, Vital Force
2 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dismember
I'm playing something very similar. My personal changes are very small: -1 Swamp +1 Black Fetch, -1 Ooze +1 Liliana of the Veil, -1 Dismember +1 Flaying Tendrils.
Just run a singleton Godless Shrine for them out of the board?