Went 3-0-1 last night for my best showing with shadow since I finished building it a couple of months ago. I 2-0'ed a mirror match and merfolk, then 2-1'ed esper control before ending the night by splitting with affinity (we played for fun and I lost). A couple notes:
1. My shadow opponent was surprised to see two dismember main in our first game. I didn't think it was that weird?
2. The merfolk player had just returned to magic and didn't realize my shocklands enabled islandwalk.
3. PWs did work against esper control. Flip Jace and liliana were absolute bombs.
I honestly couldn't tell you my list, as I was frantically swapping cards from my legacy shadow to get the deck modern legal in time, but I am starting to feel way more comfortable with it.
One thing I've sort of noticed about GDS, in general, is that a lot of people are behind on the trends of the deck and have a lot of misconceptions… even people playing GDS. Plenty of people still think that most GDS players are maindecking K-Command, but that's been relegated to the sideboard for some time now.
2 Dismember has become pretty standard at this point and that number seems right… for now.
Went 3-0-1 last night for my best showing with shadow since I finished building it a couple of months ago. I 2-0'ed a mirror match and merfolk, then 2-1'ed esper control before ending the night by splitting with affinity (we played for fun and I lost). A couple notes:
1. My shadow opponent was surprised to see two dismember main in our first game. I didn't think it was that weird?
2. The merfolk player had just returned to magic and didn't realize my shocklands enabled islandwalk.
3. PWs did work against esper control. Flip Jace and liliana were absolute bombs.
I honestly couldn't tell you my list, as I was frantically swapping cards from my legacy shadow to get the deck modern legal in time, but I am starting to feel way more comfortable with it.
1. The removal suite has changed from the Decks inception (maybe I should update the primer). The numbers value around 2 Dismember, 2-4 Push and 0-2 Bolt, to a total of 6/7 removal spells. The discard has changed to 2/4 IoK/TS from 4/4 originally. The number of TBR has been 2 for quite a while as well. If he was surprised to see that he probably doesn't play the deck as often as he should. At least he isn't watching the latest lists.
3. PWs are great against control in general because they don't have a good way to deal with them. Specially Esper since they aren't typically running Detention Sphere and Push puts creatures in the yard which in turn makes LtLH way better when compared to the UW Miracles that plays Terminus/Oust/Condemn to complement the Paths.
One thing I've sort of noticed about GDS, in general, is that a lot of people are behind on the trends of the deck and have a lot of misconceptions… even people playing GDS. Plenty of people still think that most GDS players are maindecking K-Command, but that's been relegated to the sideboard for some time now.
That as well... Kommand has been great out of the board and never missed it on the main. Funny enough all the HScales players think I play them in the main... Don't know about that either.
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Ha, yeah. I even heard a Phoenix player at my LGS go on about how K-Command was the whole reason to play GDS and that normal lists are running 2-3 right now. My LGS is generally pretty tapped into the over meta trends so I found those comments pretty strange.
I will be regularly using 2 Liliana's Triumph out of the board because it is an instant speed edict. It can be a good tool against Primeval Titan decks, Bogles, Tron and the mirror. This is a highly situational card however, so it will not fit everyone's play-style/ every meta.
I'm afraid everything else on that list is far too slow for my liking. Angrath's Rampage is flexible, but I would rather have Abrade personally.
Why would you want Triumph against Tron? Wurmcoil, Thragtusk and World Breaker are all pretty miserable targets and if Ulamog's on the table then you've already lost anyway.
It's not an out though, once those two permanents are exiled you're done for in 95% of the cases. Summary Dismissal is a hard out to Ulamog but the game should really be over by the time they get to 10 mana.
I have a question around meta specific issues vs skill and learning curve. I am trying to sort out where my real problems lie.
Background: I picked up GDS after playing Mardu Pyro Midrange for a long time (that deck faded from competitiveness). I have been playing GDS for about 6 months. Decklist has evolved some but current list is here https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1873605#paper
At work we have a small group of with a fairly competitive set of decks (Humans, Merfolk, 2x Jund, BG Rock, and Esper Control) With the exception of Esper Control GDS has been great. My win % is very high and I am the deck to beat. Esper Control seems to be my only bad matchup. I just added pithing needle to my SB last night as an extra card to test against control matchups.
Now skip to my LGS. I cannot win matches to save my life. My matches all go to 3 games, but invariably I lose. The meta at my LGS is very loose it seems, as is the case with modern. Last night I went 0-2 against Bant Value Town and 8 Whack, took a bye in rnd 3 so I dropped. Both matches were down to the wire in game 3. In previous week’s matches I have lost to Blue Moon, Spirits, Amulet Titan, Grixis Thopter Sword, Lanternless Whir.
A lot of these decks seem fringe to me. Am I just running into bad matchups or likely need more reps in? I’m sure it’s a combo of both but I’m really struggling with my LGS vs play group.
Hard to say, but your playgroup at work should be very difficult for you to beat. Humans, control and BGx decks are some tough matchups for GDS in general. Merfolk isn't exactly a pushover either. Maybe it's the skill level of your colleagues?
Humans and Esper are definitely terrible matchups. They are winnable but it's a struggle. BGx and Merfolk are a bit easier from my experience but they are far from being amazing matchups.
From my experience wacky decks tend to be free wins for GDS (except if they are burn based and even then...). We have hand disruption, backed up by a fast clock with counter spells and a "combo-ish" finish. This is typically a good recipe to beat janky decks.
I'd imagine that you'd have a better time on the LGS than on the playgroup.
On the decklist, ignoring the sideboard I'm not 100% sold on the no-Bolt lists. I enjoy playing 2/3 Bolt/Push split myself. The 4th Denial MB feels really awkward some games. I'd rather have more removal since modern is a creature heavy format. That being said, the 4th Denial fits your playgroup gauntlet better. Doesn't fit the general metagame though.
On the sideboard, I wouldn't suggest the Pithing Needle at all. It's too narrow or ineffective against most decks. I'm also not a huge fan of Snapcaster on the board. I prefer to play 2 LtLH, better against both Control and creature-based decks. Apart from that it's the generic sideboard. I make different individual choices on the cards I play on my SB but the general plan is the same.
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The more we go in a Tempo direction, the less Snapcaster Mage appeals to me. For a certain period I was even playing the fifth (Jace, Vryn's Prodigy) maindeck. That was the time we durdled, with multiple Kommands in the maindeck. That time is over. I often found myself with dead Snappies in hand, casting them on turn two just for the purpose of having another body on the field. They are a great engine, don't get me wrong. But we are a deck which lives on one cc spells. Snapcaster, to have at least a marginal utility, needs to be cast as a three cc spell. An enormity.
2) This is a Jund list without green.
Yes, it is. I'm actually playing Traverse Shadow without green. Fact is, Traverse is such a bad magic card. I played my fair share of Jund Shadow, Sultai Shadow and 4C Shadow. Half the time I would have preferred a cantrip instead of it. Some other times is rendered useless by opponent's grave hate. Some other times drawing into threats instead of... anything else is actually a liability. Other than that, while Tarmogoyf is a very resilient creature, the ability of casting delve treaths for just one mana has made a HUGE difference, in my testing process. Simply put:
a) Scour > Traverse
b) Grixis Mana > 4C Mana (and Stubborn Denial > playing without Stubborn Denial)
c) Tarmogoyf == Gurmag Angler + Tasigur
I DO want, from the Traverse approach, the high number of cc1 plays (7 discard spells + 4 Stubb, other than all the cantrips!) plus the ability to deploy an early threat (so, one more Delve creature to find, and the set 4 Scours + 2 Looting in order to cast them with consistency).
3) What about the sideboard?
This deck can't play the value game in the traditional fashion. You basically operate on 2-4 lands for the whole match (and Looting is actually crazy good at discarding excess mana), so I'm avoid the "planeswalker trap". Young Peezy is important, though, against most grindy match-ups such as Control and BGx (other than acting as an additional threat versus certain typologies of combo decks). You can deploy it on the field on turn two, most of the time, cause it will exacerbate the opponent's removal before they can eat your "real" threats. I do like Spellbomb more than Surgical at the moment, and I would play Leyline as alternative in this list.
I close unbeaten. Very satisfatory result. Humans is probably the worst preboard matchup you can face, when playing with four Stubbs. Four Stubbs were an all-star the whole day, though, against the other archetypes. My sideboard is well tuned for Tron, which I consider a slightly positive match-up, and in testing I absolutely wrecked Phoenix and any kind of Combo deck. GB Rock is nowhere near to Jund's grindy level (though I would much likely play Rock in this meta, and that's good for us) and we can actually overrun them pretty easily unless they have nutdraws, thanks to the low-lands count. I fear more HS Affinity (again, the side is decently tuned for it) and Humans + hard Control.
I do think this should be the future for the archetype, at least in the incoming months.
Guys, need some advice for an alternative mana base. I will use my Scalding Tarns in UR Phoenix that I will try nest weeks, and want to leave my DS ready to play without it. My red cards in main are only 2 TBR, in sideboard I have 2 Abrades and 1 K Command.
I was thinking in two options:
1 - replace with 2 Flooded Strand and maintain 4x Bloodstained Mire, 4x Polluted Delta, 2x Watery Grave, 2x Blood Crypt (maybe go to one), 1x Steam Vents (maybe go to two or another fetch), 1x Swamp and 1x Island.
2 - replace with 2 Marsh Flats and change the Steam Vents for another Watery Grave (maybe a Blod Crypt).
With the second option my fetch can take all the lands any less the Island.
What will be better, or do you have any other sugestions?
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The Izmagnus are the most powerful members of the Izmundi
Modern: Grixis DS ; UR Phoenix ; Storm ; Burn Standard: MonoRed ; Ral Spells ; UR Phoenix ; Izzet Drakes Commander: Locust God
Scalding Tarn is the worst fetch in the deck and black the most important color. I'd run two Marsh Flats instead of the Tarns.
Tarn fetches all our shocklands and the island, it only misses the basic swamp. Flats fetches de basic swamp but misses the island and the steam vents. I prefer to be able to fetch for steam vents for those cases where you start with basic swamp + fetch.
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UBR Grixis Shadow GWU Bant Valuetown UW UW Control
Scalding Tarn is the worst fetch in the deck and black the most important color. I'd run two Marsh Flats instead of the Tarns.
Tarn fetches all our shocklands and the island, it only misses the basic swamp. Flats fetches de basic swamp but misses the island and the steam vents. I prefer to be able to fetch for steam vents for those cases where you start with basic swamp + fetch.
Pretty much this. In terms of playability of the fetches this is how it goes:
Delta > Mire >= Tarn > Strand >= Flats
Delta fetches every single land of the deck. Mire fetches all the shocks but misses on Island. Tarn fetches all the shocks but misses on Swamp. Strand misses on Blood Crypt and Swamp. Flats misses on Steam Vents and Island.
I don't play Tarns myself because I don't own any and I'm not going to buy into them when it's more than garanteed that they'll be reprinted soon and their price will tank big time. I currently playing double Strand but I probably change into Strand/Flats. If you play your fetches the reverse way, meaning from worse to best, you'll get punished way less from having worse fetches. Basically always get the first Watery Grave out of the Strand and play it on the first turn if possible.
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Thanks for your advices. I usually fetch for Watery Grave and if I go to Flats I will change the Steam Vents for another Watery Grave. It will be a marginal number of games that it will cost me the red source, e.g. one hand with swamp, fetch. But in many games I fetch for Watery Grave in that spot, and don't care much for the red (example in game one). If I go to strands I will keep the Steam Vents. I will try it in MTGO for a wile and play some matchs to choose.
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Modern: Grixis DS ; UR Phoenix ; Storm ; Burn Standard: MonoRed ; Ral Spells ; UR Phoenix ; Izzet Drakes Commander: Locust God
Thanks for your advices. I usually fetch for Watery Grave and if I go to Flats I will change the Steam Vents for another Watery Grave. It will be a marginal number of games that it will cost me the red source, e.g. one hand with swamp, fetch. But in many games I fetch for Watery Grave in that spot, and don't care much for the red (example in game one). If I go to strands I will keep the Steam Vents. I will try it in MTGO for a wile and play some matchs to choose.
Changing the Steam Vents for the third Watery Grave will make hitting double red way harder which is important for the sideboard if you play Anger of the Gods (my case). Usually we want for the entire game one blue source, two black sources, one/two red sources. Since we are so land light and we mill ourselves it's really easy for us to get color screwed that's where the Steam Vents comes in. Although we'll rarely fetch for it before turn 3, if we happen to mill over one of the Blood Crypts, we just locked ourselves out of playing a double-red spell or two red spells in one turn.
In my opinion, the mana base is as tight as it gets:
4 Delta
4 Mire
2 Tarn/Strand/Flats
2 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Island
1 Swamp
There's little to no room for change.
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1. My shadow opponent was surprised to see two dismember main in our first game. I didn't think it was that weird?
2. The merfolk player had just returned to magic and didn't realize my shocklands enabled islandwalk.
3. PWs did work against esper control. Flip Jace and liliana were absolute bombs.
I honestly couldn't tell you my list, as I was frantically swapping cards from my legacy shadow to get the deck modern legal in time, but I am starting to feel way more comfortable with it.
2 Dismember has become pretty standard at this point and that number seems right… for now.
3. PWs are great against control in general because they don't have a good way to deal with them. Specially Esper since they aren't typically running Detention Sphere and Push puts creatures in the yard which in turn makes LtLH way better when compared to the UW Miracles that plays Terminus/Oust/Condemn to complement the Paths.
That as well... Kommand has been great out of the board and never missed it on the main. Funny enough all the HScales players think I play them in the main... Don't know about that either.
WUMiracles ControlUW
RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR
Ashiok, Dream Render
Angrath's Rampage
Dreadhorde Arcanist
Liliana's Triumph
Saheeli, Sublime Artificer
I'm afraid everything else on that list is far too slow for my liking. Angrath's Rampage is flexible, but I would rather have Abrade personally.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Background: I picked up GDS after playing Mardu Pyro Midrange for a long time (that deck faded from competitiveness). I have been playing GDS for about 6 months. Decklist has evolved some but current list is here https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1873605#paper
At work we have a small group of with a fairly competitive set of decks (Humans, Merfolk, 2x Jund, BG Rock, and Esper Control) With the exception of Esper Control GDS has been great. My win % is very high and I am the deck to beat. Esper Control seems to be my only bad matchup. I just added pithing needle to my SB last night as an extra card to test against control matchups.
Now skip to my LGS. I cannot win matches to save my life. My matches all go to 3 games, but invariably I lose. The meta at my LGS is very loose it seems, as is the case with modern. Last night I went 0-2 against Bant Value Town and 8 Whack, took a bye in rnd 3 so I dropped. Both matches were down to the wire in game 3. In previous week’s matches I have lost to Blue Moon, Spirits, Amulet Titan, Grixis Thopter Sword, Lanternless Whir.
A lot of these decks seem fringe to me. Am I just running into bad matchups or likely need more reps in? I’m sure it’s a combo of both but I’m really struggling with my LGS vs play group.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
From my experience wacky decks tend to be free wins for GDS (except if they are burn based and even then...). We have hand disruption, backed up by a fast clock with counter spells and a "combo-ish" finish. This is typically a good recipe to beat janky decks.
I'd imagine that you'd have a better time on the LGS than on the playgroup.
On the decklist, ignoring the sideboard I'm not 100% sold on the no-Bolt lists. I enjoy playing 2/3 Bolt/Push split myself. The 4th Denial MB feels really awkward some games. I'd rather have more removal since modern is a creature heavy format. That being said, the 4th Denial fits your playgroup gauntlet better. Doesn't fit the general metagame though.
On the sideboard, I wouldn't suggest the Pithing Needle at all. It's too narrow or ineffective against most decks. I'm also not a huge fan of Snapcaster on the board. I prefer to play 2 LtLH, better against both Control and creature-based decks. Apart from that it's the generic sideboard. I make different individual choices on the cards I play on my SB but the general plan is the same.
WUMiracles ControlUW
RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR
4x Polluted Delta
4x Bloodstained Mire
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Watery Grave
2x Blood Crypt
1x Steam Vents
1x Swamp
1x Island
Creatures (13)
4x Street Wraith
4x Death's Shadow
3x Gurmag Angler
2x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4x Thought Scour
3x Mishra's Bauble
2x Faithless Looting
Permission (11)
4x Stubborn Denial
4x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
Removals (8)
4x Fatal Push
2x Lightning Bolt
2x Terminate
Others (2)
2x Temur Battle Rage
2x Ceremonious Rejection
2x Disdainful Stroke
2x Collective Brutality
3x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Abrade
1x Kolaghan's Command
3x Young Pyromancer
Let's analyze it.
1) No Snapcaster Mage? You crazy, bro?
The more we go in a Tempo direction, the less Snapcaster Mage appeals to me. For a certain period I was even playing the fifth (Jace, Vryn's Prodigy) maindeck. That was the time we durdled, with multiple Kommands in the maindeck. That time is over. I often found myself with dead Snappies in hand, casting them on turn two just for the purpose of having another body on the field. They are a great engine, don't get me wrong. But we are a deck which lives on one cc spells. Snapcaster, to have at least a marginal utility, needs to be cast as a three cc spell. An enormity.
2) This is a Jund list without green.
Yes, it is. I'm actually playing Traverse Shadow without green. Fact is, Traverse is such a bad magic card. I played my fair share of Jund Shadow, Sultai Shadow and 4C Shadow. Half the time I would have preferred a cantrip instead of it. Some other times is rendered useless by opponent's grave hate. Some other times drawing into threats instead of... anything else is actually a liability. Other than that, while Tarmogoyf is a very resilient creature, the ability of casting delve treaths for just one mana has made a HUGE difference, in my testing process. Simply put:
a) Scour > Traverse
b) Grixis Mana > 4C Mana (and Stubborn Denial > playing without Stubborn Denial)
c) Tarmogoyf == Gurmag Angler + Tasigur
I DO want, from the Traverse approach, the high number of cc1 plays (7 discard spells + 4 Stubb, other than all the cantrips!) plus the ability to deploy an early threat (so, one more Delve creature to find, and the set 4 Scours + 2 Looting in order to cast them with consistency).
3) What about the sideboard?
This deck can't play the value game in the traditional fashion. You basically operate on 2-4 lands for the whole match (and Looting is actually crazy good at discarding excess mana), so I'm avoid the "planeswalker trap". Young Peezy is important, though, against most grindy match-ups such as Control and BGx (other than acting as an additional threat versus certain typologies of combo decks). You can deploy it on the field on turn two, most of the time, cause it will exacerbate the opponent's removal before they can eat your "real" threats. I do like Spellbomb more than Surgical at the moment, and I would play Leyline as alternative in this list.
----
The tournament.
Swiss.
Round1// G-Tron 2-0
Round2// G-Tron 2-1
Round3// URw Phoenix 2-0
Round4// Abzan Company 2-0
Round5// Humans I.D.
Quarter// GB Rock 2-1
Semi// Spirits 2-1
Final// Amulet Titan 2-0
I close unbeaten. Very satisfatory result. Humans is probably the worst preboard matchup you can face, when playing with four Stubbs. Four Stubbs were an all-star the whole day, though, against the other archetypes. My sideboard is well tuned for Tron, which I consider a slightly positive match-up, and in testing I absolutely wrecked Phoenix and any kind of Combo deck. GB Rock is nowhere near to Jund's grindy level (though I would much likely play Rock in this meta, and that's good for us) and we can actually overrun them pretty easily unless they have nutdraws, thanks to the low-lands count. I fear more HS Affinity (again, the side is decently tuned for it) and Humans + hard Control.
I do think this should be the future for the archetype, at least in the incoming months.
I was thinking in two options:
1 - replace with 2 Flooded Strand and maintain 4x Bloodstained Mire, 4x Polluted Delta, 2x Watery Grave, 2x Blood Crypt (maybe go to one), 1x Steam Vents (maybe go to two or another fetch), 1x Swamp and 1x Island.
2 - replace with 2 Marsh Flats and change the Steam Vents for another Watery Grave (maybe a Blod Crypt).
With the second option my fetch can take all the lands any less the Island.
What will be better, or do you have any other sugestions?
Modern: Grixis DS ; UR Phoenix ; Storm ; Burn
Standard: MonoRed ; Ral Spells ; UR Phoenix ; Izzet Drakes
Commander: Locust God
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
UR Blue Moon
UBR Grixis Shadow
GWU Amulet Titan
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
Tarn fetches all our shocklands and the island, it only misses the basic swamp. Flats fetches de basic swamp but misses the island and the steam vents. I prefer to be able to fetch for steam vents for those cases where you start with basic swamp + fetch.
GWU Bant Valuetown
UW UW Control
Delta > Mire >= Tarn > Strand >= Flats
Delta fetches every single land of the deck. Mire fetches all the shocks but misses on Island. Tarn fetches all the shocks but misses on Swamp. Strand misses on Blood Crypt and Swamp. Flats misses on Steam Vents and Island.
I don't play Tarns myself because I don't own any and I'm not going to buy into them when it's more than garanteed that they'll be reprinted soon and their price will tank big time. I currently playing double Strand but I probably change into Strand/Flats. If you play your fetches the reverse way, meaning from worse to best, you'll get punished way less from having worse fetches. Basically always get the first Watery Grave out of the Strand and play it on the first turn if possible.
WUMiracles ControlUW
RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR
Modern: Grixis DS ; UR Phoenix ; Storm ; Burn
Standard: MonoRed ; Ral Spells ; UR Phoenix ; Izzet Drakes
Commander: Locust God
In my opinion, the mana base is as tight as it gets:
4 Delta
4 Mire
2 Tarn/Strand/Flats
2 Watery Grave
2 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Island
1 Swamp
There's little to no room for change.
WUMiracles ControlUW
RUBGrixis Death's ShadowBUR