Thinking of getting into the deck, how is the matchup vs. Humans?
Not great. It is winnable, but difficult. Humans (and UW/Jeskai Control) becoming big are really what pushed Grixis Death's Shadow down a bit. Our deck already struggles with go wide strategies, and Humans' added disruption makes it a bad matchup.
Thinking of getting into the deck, how is the matchup vs. Humans?
Not great. It is winnable, but difficult. Humans (and UW/Jeskai Control) becoming big are really what pushed Grixis Death's Shadow down a bit. Our deck already struggles with go wide strategies, and Humans' added disruption makes it a bad matchup.
Trampling over is not enough against go-wide strategies?
It is, but it requires you to have:
1) Death's Shadow on the board, of which we have only 4 of in the deck.
2) Temur Battle-Rage in hand
3) A life total low enough that will ensure a kill in a single hit, through any potential blockers. This is particularly tricky, since if you're that low on life total, then you're usually running the risk of losing the very next turn.
That's often enough to pull out a win against a deck like Humans, but setting up all 3 of those conditions so you can pummel through a clogged battlefield can be difficult. Sometimes, you fall short. You either dig for that TBR and fail to find it in time or you dig for threats and can only find a Gurmag Angler.
Yeah it looks like the deck lacks a second 'natural' threat (vs. Delve threats that need to be 'activated' through GY). Could Thing in the Ice do the job? Or Kiln fiend? To me it looks like the recent lists are slightly too control oriented (6x discard, 3x countermagic), I would replace 2x-3x of those with a fast-clock T2 threat. Lightning bolt+Fatal push+Dismember should take care of the possible blockers T3.
On threats:
Death’s Shadow and the delve threats are must-haves because they require little babysitting once deployed. They win combat against most creatures. They naturally dodge some forms of removal. You can slam them and attack without doing much else. Cast Stubborn Denial to foil removal and let them do the dirty work.
TiTi and Kiln Fiend require more setup once they’ve hit the field. Kiln Fiend needs a TBR in hand to win combat, since it’s a 1/2 that basically dies to anything unless you give him Double Strike. TiTi is going to require 4 spells to become a threat, which forces you to dump your hand to effectively use him. You might be able to slot either of those into GDS with some success, but then I think the deck begins to lean more toward something like H0lydiva’s Bloo/UR Kiln Fiend deck, which is a good deck, but it focuses very heavily on scoring the TBR combo win.
On control elements:
GDS is an odd deck. You need to shift from control to aggro, or from aggro to control, in an instant. You need to disrupt your opponent just enough to eek out the win. You often have a short window of opportunity to win and success with this deck is largely tied to understanding when that window is open. The “control” elements that you refer to are necessary for this.
Like discard. Thoughtseize clears out problem cards from your opponent’s hand and gives you perfect information as early as turn 1. It “protects” the threats you want to deploy in 2 ways. Thoughtseize also turns on Death Shadow earlier and in many games, you just want to run out a DS as quick as possible. Stubborn Denial just says “no” to so many cards that it’s hard not run it. It’s true that Denial is laughably bad in a couple of matchups… but it’s just THAT good in the matchups that it’s good in that you probably want 2-3 of them.
The new mechanic from Ravnica for dimir looks interesting for this deck since it sends it to the grave instead of scrying to the bottom, hopefully there will be some spicy stuff for us.
Hi guys. First Post. What do you think of Chart a Course vs Faithless Looting? I find it fit well in UB build where you don’t have faithless looting to fight flooding. Here is my list:
4 Death Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Serum Vision
4 Thought Scour
4 Thoughtseize
4 Fatal Push
3 Stubborn Denial
3 Chart a Course
2 Inquisition of Kozelik
2 Dismember
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Abrade
2 Collective Brutality
2 Liliana the Last Hope
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Disdainful Stroke
By playing two colors in the main you can play Serum Visions to make you draw more consistent.
Also I want to ask you guys how do you feel about 17 lands and Bauble? I play 18 lands and 0 Bauble because I suffered a lot from the original 3 colors 17 land build because of mana screw. About Bauble, I know it’s for t2 Angler but I feel many games it’s not very important whether you play it t2 or t3. Therefore I cut them all and try to play cards with higher value.
2 mana at sorcery speed for what most likely is just going to be a cantrip? seems kinda weak to me when the bar is set pretty high to play anything that isnt a form of disruption and or isnt 1 mana.
the UB centric builds that I have seen play 1 or 2 copies of lili the last hope in the main with baubles to round out the cantrip suite. with 8 1 cmc cantrips AND chart you are spending a significant amount of mana/tempo to just spin your wheels.
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Modern: UWGSnow-Bant Control BURGrixis Death's Shadow GWBCoCo Elves WCDeath and Taxes (sold)
I have using Ben Fredman's version for sometime now with 2 looting and 4 baubles. The deck indeed filled graveyard very fast with cards.
I was testing with +1 Tasigur -1 Snappy, along with 4 angler by focusing on aggro beat down and so far it has been great as one more additional threat that can be dig by cantrips while filling the graveyard, and it also add possibility to turn on denial and battle rage.
So, how do you guys feel about Assassin's Trophy (that will most likely replace Decay in modern almost completely)?
I don't think it necessarily replaces Abrupt Decay. Sure it destroys lands and 4+ cmc permanents, but Abrupt Decay can't be countered. Really feel that it'll be a meta call on which goes in BGx decks.
EDIT: I think it could be similar to Push replacing Bolt for a short while, but now Bolt is very much back.
I think I'll play this over the 2 Faithless Lootings. It doesn't play the exact same role, but it does allow me to find whatever I need at the time at Instant speed. Threat, removal, disruption, grave hate...you can get a lot of things even with just 1 Street Wraith in the GY.
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BUR Grixis Death's Shadow RBW Mardu Pyromancer GBR Gx Tron
Result: secondary colour move to red than blue. Temur battle rage still is VIP. But I feel much better play against them by fast deploy & tutor threat. Lose but better.
I've been playing rakdos charm in my sideboard lately over abrade and have enjoyed how it plays, which is why it's there.
Architects is just a 5th-6th street wraith.
collective brutality in the main seemed reasonable as a card to search with secrets and is another way to put creatures into the yard.
no inquisitions were added because i figured that higher threat density could possibly warrant a little less 1 mana disruption.
it could be possible that an 18th land could be right in this decklist aswell but idk.
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Modern:UBRDeath's ShadowUBR, CEldrazi StompyC,WUBRGSliversWUBRG, UBRGTraverse ShadowUBRG,RUGtempo pileRUG Pauper:UdelverU they slaughtered my deck i miss gush and daze..
I like it so far but inquisition is still needed because we need to disrupt and then land our threats. Architects of will is a good card to go along with street wraith. I feel brutality is a little slow for the main since push is better to go after if you need a removal spell
You are right about the looting, without some value in the deck, this card is risky to play since it help lose gas and also bad topdeck later on. Not sure how it goes but I tried to come out with this list.
Agreed on how Endurrr think of Collective Brutality on tutor by Secrets as well as send creature to graveyard to enable tutoring effect. Play with a lot bad matchup at least it is a hate card that mainboard & extra discard. Gone back to 18 lands due to dropping baubles.
4 snappy is here to stay to add flexibility of the deck.
yea im not quite sure on a 4 of the new tutor without some # of looting and and architects, since its not really a card id want to draw without one of those. I also feel like playing 3-4 snap with it could be wrong since it is gonna be like a 3 drop for us a lot just like snap. since usually you wanna play something the same turn you tutor it. more on collective brutality, I think it's a great silver bullet for rougher matchups or just setting up the graveyard for secrets or discarding dead cards and getting value. even in matchups where the lifegain is irrelevant, having 2 more points of burn could be relevant. on other silver bullets, liliana of the veil could be solid, as could something like raven's crime or even a card quite similar to brutality in a few ways, funeral charm.
this card is really exciting but i feel like just trying to slap it in as a 4 of in place of already well established cards like bauble or serum visions (or even looting to an extent) is incorrect. the best way to put this card in the deck is to trim some of the numbers of other stuff, bonus points if it's searchable by it too.
idk though, we may never end up playing this card. only time will tell i suppose.
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Modern:UBRDeath's ShadowUBR, CEldrazi StompyC,WUBRGSliversWUBRG, UBRGTraverse ShadowUBRG,RUGtempo pileRUG Pauper:UdelverU they slaughtered my deck i miss gush and daze..
The reason I don’t want brutality in the main it’s because it’s not as great in the main since it can be lack luster in many match ups, lootings can still be a 2 of or even 1 to help the deck. I’m still with the 3 serum and 4 baubles
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Not great. It is winnable, but difficult. Humans (and UW/Jeskai Control) becoming big are really what pushed Grixis Death's Shadow down a bit. Our deck already struggles with go wide strategies, and Humans' added disruption makes it a bad matchup.
It is, but it requires you to have:
1) Death's Shadow on the board, of which we have only 4 of in the deck.
2) Temur Battle-Rage in hand
3) A life total low enough that will ensure a kill in a single hit, through any potential blockers. This is particularly tricky, since if you're that low on life total, then you're usually running the risk of losing the very next turn.
That's often enough to pull out a win against a deck like Humans, but setting up all 3 of those conditions so you can pummel through a clogged battlefield can be difficult. Sometimes, you fall short. You either dig for that TBR and fail to find it in time or you dig for threats and can only find a Gurmag Angler.
On threats:
Death’s Shadow and the delve threats are must-haves because they require little babysitting once deployed. They win combat against most creatures. They naturally dodge some forms of removal. You can slam them and attack without doing much else. Cast Stubborn Denial to foil removal and let them do the dirty work.
TiTi and Kiln Fiend require more setup once they’ve hit the field. Kiln Fiend needs a TBR in hand to win combat, since it’s a 1/2 that basically dies to anything unless you give him Double Strike. TiTi is going to require 4 spells to become a threat, which forces you to dump your hand to effectively use him. You might be able to slot either of those into GDS with some success, but then I think the deck begins to lean more toward something like H0lydiva’s Bloo/UR Kiln Fiend deck, which is a good deck, but it focuses very heavily on scoring the TBR combo win.
On control elements:
GDS is an odd deck. You need to shift from control to aggro, or from aggro to control, in an instant. You need to disrupt your opponent just enough to eek out the win. You often have a short window of opportunity to win and success with this deck is largely tied to understanding when that window is open. The “control” elements that you refer to are necessary for this.
Like discard. Thoughtseize clears out problem cards from your opponent’s hand and gives you perfect information as early as turn 1. It “protects” the threats you want to deploy in 2 ways. Thoughtseize also turns on Death Shadow earlier and in many games, you just want to run out a DS as quick as possible. Stubborn Denial just says “no” to so many cards that it’s hard not run it. It’s true that Denial is laughably bad in a couple of matchups… but it’s just THAT good in the matchups that it’s good in that you probably want 2-3 of them.
4 Death Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Gurmag Angler
4 Serum Vision
4 Thought Scour
4 Thoughtseize
4 Fatal Push
3 Stubborn Denial
3 Chart a Course
2 Inquisition of Kozelik
2 Dismember
4 Polluted Delta
4 Watery Grave
3 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Verdant Catacomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Abrade
2 Collective Brutality
2 Liliana the Last Hope
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Disdainful Stroke
By playing two colors in the main you can play Serum Visions to make you draw more consistent.
Also I want to ask you guys how do you feel about 17 lands and Bauble? I play 18 lands and 0 Bauble because I suffered a lot from the original 3 colors 17 land build because of mana screw. About Bauble, I know it’s for t2 Angler but I feel many games it’s not very important whether you play it t2 or t3. Therefore I cut them all and try to play cards with higher value.
the UB centric builds that I have seen play 1 or 2 copies of lili the last hope in the main with baubles to round out the cantrip suite. with 8 1 cmc cantrips AND chart you are spending a significant amount of mana/tempo to just spin your wheels.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I was testing with +1 Tasigur -1 Snappy, along with 4 angler by focusing on aggro beat down and so far it has been great as one more additional threat that can be dig by cantrips while filling the graveyard, and it also add possibility to turn on denial and battle rage.
I don't think it necessarily replaces Abrupt Decay. Sure it destroys lands and 4+ cmc permanents, but Abrupt Decay can't be countered. Really feel that it'll be a meta call on which goes in BGx decks.
EDIT: I think it could be similar to Push replacing Bolt for a short while, but now Bolt is very much back.
I think I'll play this over the 2 Faithless Lootings. It doesn't play the exact same role, but it does allow me to find whatever I need at the time at Instant speed. Threat, removal, disruption, grave hate...you can get a lot of things even with just 1 Street Wraith in the GY.
Grixis Death's Shadow
RBW
Mardu Pyromancer
GBR
Gx Tron
Creature (16)
Death’s Shadow x4
Gurmag angler x4
Snapcaster mage x4
Street wraith x4
Spells (27)
Thoughtseize x4
Inquisition x2
Lightning bolt x3
Fatal push x2
Dismember x2
Secret of mausoleum x4
Faithless looting x4
Thought scour x1
Stubborn denial x3
Temur battle rage x2
Lands (17)
Bloodstained mire x4
Polluted delta x4
Scalding tarn x2
Watery grave x2
Blood crypt x2
Steam vent x1
Swamp x1
Mountain x1
Result: secondary colour move to red than blue. Temur battle rage still is VIP. But I feel much better play against them by fast deploy & tutor threat. Lose but better.
For sure, it worsen against grindy matchups.
here's a decklist i came up with:
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
Artifacts: 4
4 Mishra's Bauble
Instants: 16
2 Dismember
1 Fatal Push
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Secrets of the Mausoleum
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Temur Battle Rage
4 Thought Scour
1 Collective Brutality
2 Faithless Looting
4 Thoughtseize
Creatures: 16
4 Death's Shadow
4 Gurmag Angler
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Street Wraith
2 Architects of will
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Collective Brutality
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Temur Battle Rage
I've been playing rakdos charm in my sideboard lately over abrade and have enjoyed how it plays, which is why it's there.
Architects is just a 5th-6th street wraith.
collective brutality in the main seemed reasonable as a card to search with secrets and is another way to put creatures into the yard.
no inquisitions were added because i figured that higher threat density could possibly warrant a little less 1 mana disruption.
it could be possible that an 18th land could be right in this decklist aswell but idk.
Pauper: UdelverUthey slaughtered my deck i miss gush and daze..Turn 6 Karn > Turn 2 Phage
2x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Island
4x Polluted Delta
3x Scalding Tarn
1x Steam Vents
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
2x Dismember
1x Fatal Push
3x Lightning Bolt
4x Mausoleum Secrets
3x Stubborn Denial
2x Temur Battle Rage
4x Thought Scour
4x Death's Shadow
4x Gurmag Angler
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Street Wraith
Sorcery (7)
1x Collective Brutality
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize
Agreed on how Endurrr think of Collective Brutality on tutor by Secrets as well as send creature to graveyard to enable tutoring effect. Play with a lot bad matchup at least it is a hate card that mainboard & extra discard. Gone back to 18 lands due to dropping baubles.
4 snappy is here to stay to add flexibility of the deck.
Creature that might help with the deck in filling Graveyard on turn 1 : Architects of Will, Stitcher's Supplier
this card is really exciting but i feel like just trying to slap it in as a 4 of in place of already well established cards like bauble or serum visions (or even looting to an extent) is incorrect. the best way to put this card in the deck is to trim some of the numbers of other stuff, bonus points if it's searchable by it too.
idk though, we may never end up playing this card. only time will tell i suppose.
Pauper: UdelverUthey slaughtered my deck i miss gush and daze..Turn 6 Karn > Turn 2 Phage