it's an interesting idea to take the grixis delver gameplan from legacy and attempt to transplant it to modern. That being said, I don't know if it's a good idea given that there's no brainstorm, daze, nor wasteland in modern. I'll definitely give it a couple of runs online to see how it plays
Preface: I've been playing a pretty stock list of this deck for the last few weeks while getting back into Magic (again) and I haven't had a horrible time against Jund with BBE. All my games so far have been in the Practice Room on Modo because I'm learning the format but I'm winnning 99% of my matches in there now so I feel like it's time to start League play.
In the matchups I've played against Jund the early discard was key and in a couple of games I just left Bob on the board and he did the last few points of damage (this is not ideal since they run about 25 lands but it was my only out). I do run a Dreadbore for Jace and Gideon planeswalkers and that seems great against their Lili's but it hasn't come up. Unlike the Living End decks, their cascades never seem to hit anything that just ends the game on the spot (assuming you don't play into a Maelstrom Pulse) and I was able to out value them with K-Command and Snappy's. For me the biggest target for removal was Scooze. The 3/2 body on BBE seems less relevant against our board presence when compared to decks running small creatures like Delver and Young Pyromancer that can't win in combat.
I brought in Spell Bombs to help keep Goyf in check but have been on the Extirpate plan lately and don't know how such targeted grave hate would work. It'd be fun to Extirpate their BBE I guess but I haven't seen Jund since I switched SB strategies. Goyf never seemed to matter in any of the games because our Delve guys kept him in check and 4x Fatal Push. I'd be more likely to target their Scoozes.
I'm not convinced it's worth dedicating SB space for Jund BUT if BBE is really that big of a deal and Jund becomes a significant percentage of the Metagame then some non-zero number of Double Negative out of the board would be cute on the play or on the draw while not being completely dead the rest of the time. If they cascade into Abrupt Decay it's less good but at least the body isn't on the table or one could wait and do something else I guess. I like the idea of running more discard and just fighting through the BBE. If it becomes a big enough deal then I could see a pair of Double Negative out of the board being worth it to keep the Jund deck from getting back in the game but, at that point, it's probably win more. The games where I've blown them out have all involved early Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek paired with Snapcaster Mage shenanigans. Drawing them late when you need removal feels really bad so adding more may not be right either. Bringing in Collective Brutalityfor additional discard may be good because it isn't completely dead late game. Some number of Stubborn Denial seems fine to combat Maelstrom Pulse and Liliana of the Veil.
Overall the matchup felt really swingy with cards lining up and a lot of back and forth going on or one side getting blown out. I haven't gotten to play it enough to try and guess a win percentage but it doesn't feel unwinnable and the games were fun as long as I wasn't getting flooded on lands. They seem to have a hard time recovering from discard spells because they live off the top of their deck unless Bob is in play and we have a lot of cantrips and digging going on. Their 25 lands mean top deck wars don't seem real scary and if I remember right I brought in Liliana, the Last Hope to grind the games out but that seems bad because BBE has haste and can come out of nowhere.
I would argue that anyone that claims Jund is unwinnable or strongly unfavorable is mistaken. It is not an actively favorable matchup for Grixis like it was before BBE, but from my point of view all that happened is they brought it back up to close to parity.
Random thoughts on what you wrote:
General rule is kill Bob on sight. If you let them draw 2 extra cards that can very easily spiral into an insurmountable advantage almost immediately. There is nothing wrong with playing to the out of them dying to it if its your onlyoath to victory, but unanswered Bob rolls midrange mirrors all day.
I agree that Ooze is fantastic and should be a removal priority, certainly before Goyf unless its a 6/7 and primed to kill you. I have had games where I have a Push and two Snapcasters, push their turn two dude, then they untap and play Ooze with open G and it just completely dominates the game.
BBE's body is indeed underwhelming, but its strengths are card advantage and haste. This makes it a dangerous threat and as such a prime target for discard (just like they often target our SCMs)
Nihil Spellbomb is a fine card to bring in. DO NOT bring in Extripate or Surgical against Jund. Their deck is redundant, and doesn't depend on a specific graveyard interaction or a specific card to win. You will spend a card to do absolutely nothing unless you get lucky and snag something from their hand. Removing all their BBEs or Lilianas seems intersting but the card disadvantage will lose you games and its an off-the-charts awful topdeck.
You don't need cards specifically for Jund, but you do need access to cards that are good against Jund to board in. You need to take out TBR, you can trim or cut Stubborn Denial, and you can trim discard and or Street Wraiths.
Any planeswalkers you have are slam dunks. Both Lilianas are excellent and you should board in all copies of both. I also have a JTMS in my board, he is also a powerhouse. I have one Engineered Explosives in my board, it kills planeswalkers in a pinch but mostly it represents a clean two for one on a lot of boards because plays sooo many two drops now. I also usually board in Vendilion Clique, it isn't so much a haymaker as just a neat package of evasion, disruption, and flexibility (you can also bottom your own discard spells if the game goes long). Secondary threats like Young Pyromancer are also often good, and Fulminators are good againt Jund too.
I think something narrow like Double Negative is just too cute. There are plently more rawly powerful and widely usable cards out there that also happen to be good against Jund. I would stick to those.
I think something narrow like Double Negative is just too cute. There are plently more rawly powerful and widely usable cards out there that also happen to be good against Jund. I would stick to those.
Most definitely. I went back and read what I wrote... sleepy rambling is a thing I guess.
You're absolutely correct on all of your points I believe. Especially about bringing in the Extirpate effects against a deck where we need to be impacting the board. Spellbomb, at least, cantrips and shrinks GOYF. Liliana's and kill spells seem to be the best choices out of the board.
If I pick up jace, what should I cut for him?
Is jace even any good to begin with?
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Modern:UBRDeath's ShadowUBR, CEldrazi StompyC,WUBRGSliversWUBRG, UBRGTraverse ShadowUBRG,RUGtempo pileRUG Pauper:UdelverU they slaughtered my deck i miss gush and daze..
Opt vs SV is a tale as old as time. The consensus is that it really doesn't matter which one you chose, pick whichever one suits your playstyle. I personally like the card selection from SV more than the instant speed draws from opt. Only times I wish I was playing opt vs serum visions is if I'm playing vs lantern.
Hey all, went 6-3 at the SCG Open in Milwaukee, WI, good for 132nd of a record 1,062 people. Played pretty standard Grixis DS, non-Bauble list. Not a bad day, all in all - I'll fill in the details later. One of my first thoughts post-tourney is, though, should we strongly consider just running 4 Gurmag Angler and drop Tasigur, the Golden Fang altogether? Yes, even for the non-Bauble lists. Even with Relic of Progenitus around here and there I still didn't have problems delving out to get our fish angel friend. I feel like the 5 power is important in a meta with Reality Smasher, Tarmogoyf, and opposing Anglers. Other than the obvious "it's 1 mana cheaper so it's more likely to come down T2" argument I don't see the love for Bananaman in this shell and in this meta. I played him a few times and never got to activate his 4-mana ability, I should add.
I am fairly certain the correct numbers are either 1-3 or 0-4, Tasigur to Angler. I wouldn't criticize people for playing either.
I have played Shadow for as long as it's been a deck, and I have seen Tasigur and Angler numbers go through all kinds of changes. In old Grixis Delver, people usually considered Tasigur to be the better card, and only played a singleton Angler because we didn't want to play 3 of the same legend. Looking back this could easily have been very wrong, but it was the conventional wisdom at the time. In Grixis control, Tasigur is pretty clearly the better card because you use the ability often, and he is more of a finisher than a fast clock to jam on turn two.
Shadow lists often started at 3-1 Tasigur to Angler, but moved pretty quickly to 2-2. The current ratio is probably close to 0.5-3.5, and it would be easy to conclude that Angler's numbers have steadily increasing is just proof that its better. This could be correct but I don't think it is cut and dry. The addition of Street Wraith when moving to Shadow from Delver or control does make a big difference, and is a point in favor of Angler. The more Reality Smasher and Tarmogoyf we see, the better Angler gets.
As far as ease of casting, I think there is really only a small difference to point of almost being negligible. Relic slows both down but eventually you overcome or force them to crack it, Rest in Peace wrecks both of them hard. If you are running into a lot of these type of card there is some merit to Tasigur, especially on the play, as you can brute force him into play to get under their hate, but in reality they end up playing out similarly. One thing of note is that Tasigur does occasionally come into play on turn two without Thought Scour, while Angler basically requires Thought Scour or a completely freak Street Wraith hand.
About the activated ability: I know plenty of people think it never comes up, but it really does. If you delve properly (and of course get a little lucky) then it can create advantage that does matter. It will come up infrequently, but in a drag out game against something like Jund even overpaying to buyback an Opt or Thought Scour can give you a little edge. That all being said, does this compensate for having one less power? Probably not, but dismissing it outright is a mistake. It is a legitimate upside of the card.
Other thoughts:
Random story from GP Kyoto: I had 3 cards in my yard, one untapped land in play, and my opponent had a tapped Relic with mana to activate. I had Angler in hand, and a Thought Scour that would power him out but also prompt cracking the Relic. I also had an IoK, which will come up later. I play and crack a fetchland, and I was very deliberate about putting it on the yard and on the stack and passing priority. I did this for two reasons. One was because we were technically at Professional REL and I wanted to be clear and precise, but the other is because I wanted my opponent to crack the relic. I of course wanted those cards in my yard, but I needed the Relic out of my hair. I wanted to play Scour and have everything stick, and also wanted full info and more options for the IoK. I will note that if I had Tasigur in my hand, I would have tried to play slightly faster with the fetch to try to get him into play while my opponent waits to stop Angler or snag more value. He cracked, and I played out the next two turns just like I wanted. This is really small and specific, and I was playing against a savvy player on day 2 of a GP, but these little things add up. If my opponent knows for a fact that all GDS lists play 4 Anglers and 0 Tasigur, then he knows the magic number there is 5 instead of 4 and can safely continue to sit on it. Me making my 'I have Tasigur and am really hoping you just pass priority' pouty face made my opponent do exactly what I wanted them to do and made my turn and my following turn play out better.
I obviously won't say we should play an inferior card just for "keep them on their toes" value, but you can take advantages of little things like this. Other random advantages of mixing up threats: Runed Halo and Maelstrom Pulse. I haven't seen too many Runed Halos lately so it probably isn't too much of an issue, but I have seen plenty of Jund lists with 2 Pulses recently so that is a legitimate point to think about. (Admittedly, Shadows are way more likely to get Pulsed, but its still a real thing).
That got longer than expected.
tl:dr - I would say 0.5/3.5 split of Tasigur to Angler is roughly optimal. Either is probably fine, but at the end of the day Angler is the better card, so I could easily see the argument that you should play 4, even without Bauble. So to answer your question of whether we should be "strongly considering" this? Firm yes.
Alright, as promised, here is my tourney report from SCG Milwaukee this weekend:
Round 1 - WIN vs. Jeskai Control (2-1) (1-0)
Game 1: I win the dice roll and Thoughtseize into uncountered Angler and Death's Shadow. He is not able to deal with the beats with having ineffective Bolts and Electrolyze and I kill him before Supreme Verdict.
Game 2: I punt this game pretty hard. I land a T2 Death's Shadow off of fetches and a T1 Thoughtseize and so I know he has Supreme Verdict in hand, but only 3 lands. I have a full grip of counterspells and draw another discard to look at his hand. I see the Supreme Verdict but decide to be aggressive and discard something else (I think a Snapcaster Mage) so he has no offensive action. Unfortunately the next turn he draws his 4th land, Verdicts, and kills my Death's Shadow. I never draw another creature and he eventually kills me with a Celestial Colonnade. Bad, bad play by me.
Game 3: I T1 Inquisition his Path to Exile, immediately Surgical Extraction it - and remove another Path to Exile from his hand - then drop a T2 Angler knowing full well he has no way to kill it other than a 4-drop Verdict. Fish Angel does what it does and I counter anything pertinent along the way.
Round 2 - WIN vs. Hollow One (2-0) (2-0)
Game 1: I flood the board with multiple creatures, and kill all of his except a single Hollow One that I don't care about because Death's Shadow and Angler are just bigger. I run him over before he develops any kind of a board.
Game 2: T1 he discards a Hollow One off of a random discard (Burning Inquiry) and I immediately Surgical it. Unfortunately he has sided in Young Pyromancer and Waste Not to try and grind me out. He gets several tokens of each but I eventually kill the YP with a Dismember, we trade Anglers, I play a second Angler and start attacking into the tokens. On one of the later turns I play an Inquisition and see he has a Bedlam Reveler remaining in hand but only 1 red mana. I play a Nihil Spellbomb to pop his GY to totally prevent him from casting it, draw a Temur Battle Rage off of the cantrip, and next turn proceed to Battle Rage an Angler thru a bunch of tokens to kill him.
Round 3 - WIN vs. Jeskai Control (2-1) (3-0)(this guy made Day 2)
Game 1: He is able to Path an early Death's Shadow and then kills me with a series of Helixes and Bolts because my life was around 9 life or so from aggressive fetches.
Game 2: I discard his creature removal spells, drop a Young Pyromancer, and watch it grow out of control by cantripping every turn (Serum Visions, Thought Scour, Thought Scour). I end the game with 5 tokens in play along with a YP.
Game 3: T1 discard his Path, T2 Angler, then ride Angler out to victory with 3 Stubborn Denials on the following: Electrolyze on T3 (to prevent card draw), Jace on T4 (to prevent unsummon effect), and Settle the Wreckage on T5.
At this point the deck has been doing well, I've been able to consistently discard my opponent on Turn 1, get a big Angler or DS turn 2, and use removal and counters to ride out wins.
Round 4 - LOSS vs. Hollow One (0-2) (3-1) (this guy made Day 2)
Game 1: I go first and Serum Visions. He goes Burning Inquiry and drops 2 Hollow One on his first turn. Fortunately I am okay since I am able to drop an Angler and our life totals seesaw back and forth. I eventually attack and bring him to 1 life, we are both at 1 life but I can't draw a burn, removal, or creature spell to block/kill him. He attacks and gets through with one attacker to kill me.
Game 2: He plays double Flameblade Adept and an early Angler. I play a T2 Angler and am able to Kommand to kill an Adept. Unfortunately I cannot stabilize in time as he loots a Flameblade Phoenix into his GY and proceeds to play it. The 2 in the air each turn kill me because I cannot draw removal spells. I sided out a bunch of Fatal Push this game which in retrospect was a mistake as that could have saved me a turn of air damage or killed a ground creature so I could attack more aggressively. GG not having experience versus Hollow One decks.
Round 5 - LOSS vs. Tron (0-2) (3-2)
Game 1: He goes T1 Ancient Stirrings, T2 Ancient Stirrings and Map, Tron into Karn. I have him down to 5 life but he exiles my creatures and I cannot draw the burn spells to finish him off.
Game 2: I look at his hand of 7 and it has: Power Plant, Mine, Tower (natural Tron, wtf?), Relic, Relic, Sylvan, Karn. Have a better hand, please? I'm actually able to do okay early on since I counter his Karn and drop a Death's Shadow, though it was only a 3/3 (and not ferocious for Stubborn Denial, which was important), he uses the Sylvan to find Sanctum of Ugin, plays something to find another Karn which I am able to deal with. I have him dead with a Death's Shadow but he top-decks another Karn and exiles my threat. He then eventually searches for and plays a giant Walking Ballista and kills me.
Round 6: LOSS vs. Kiki Chord (1-2) (3-3)
Game 1: He mulligans to 5, I drop an Angler and rip apart anything he tries to do.
Game 2: He combos with Deceiver Exarch and Kiki. I'm dumb and don't use my removal correctly to stop the combo. I'm bad at Magic.
Game 3: This game goes long, he Maelstrom Pulses the Liliana, the Last Hope I drop, Paths both of my threats. We are both in top deck mode and he rips a Chord, into Eternal Witness, grabbing Chord, then eventually grabbing the combo pieces he needs. I cannot draw anything and flood out on lands.
Round 7: WIN vs. Mardu Pyromancer (2-1) (4-3)
I don't have notes for these games other than that they were very grindy. One of the games he is able to restabilize with Bedlam Reveler, the other I am able to discard it so he runs out of gas. In G3 he does refill on gas, the round goes to time, however, I am able to Snapcaster Mage targeting a Temur Battle Rage in my GY, cast it on my Fish Angel, trample for exact lethal to win.
Round 8: WIN vs. Goblins (2-1) (5-3)
Game 1: He plays out a bunch of goblins, I am able to start stabilizing, however he casts Goblin Grenade to do exact lethal damage.
Game 2: I play multiple Push to kill off his creatures, drop a Fish Angel, gg. Never really in doubt since I strategically fetched for lands to preserve life.
Game 3: He plays a T1 Legion Loyalist, T2 War Marshall, T3 Bushwhacker. I go T2 Push on the Loyalist, T3 Snap and Push, blocking and killing Bushwhacker, T4 Kozilek's Return to wipe his board. He has no creatures in play and 1 card in hand. I cast Kommand making him discard the card, which turns out to be a Goblin Grenade (I was at 6 life). I stock up removal and use it to prevent him from ever sticking a creature on the board and kill him with a bunch of creatures.
Round 9: WIN vs. Infect (2-0) (6-3)
Game 1: I win dice roll, T1 IoK discarding an infect creature, T2 I push his Noble Hierarch, T3 I Scour and drop a Tasigur, he scoops.
Game 2: I T1 Push his Noble, T2 I IoK his Dismember and push his Glistener Elf, I follow up with Death's Shadow, he fetches for a Dryad Arbor and plays another Noble Hierarch and Glistener Elf. I topdeck an Izzet Staticaster and that is game. It only drags on a little bit because he topdecks back-to-back Finks, but there is never a doubt after I drop another Death's Shadow.
Overall the deck feels totally fine for the meta, there were never any matches that felt out of reach despite people saying GDS is out of style (whatever that means). Decks that run mainboard Relic could be an issue, as well as Rest in Peace out of the side. In general I am leaning towards putting in a 4th Angler over Tasigur since there were a few games where my opponent was low on life (between 1-5 life) and so the extra point of damage could be a difference-maker.
Is Flaying Tendrils still worse out of the board than Kozilek's Return now that B/R Hollow One is one of the best decks? I feel like the exile clause is super relevant against them.
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Grixis Shadow UBR Grixis Control UBR Bubble Hulk UBR
Is Flaying Tendrils still worse out of the board than Kozilek's Return now that B/R Hollow One is one of the best decks? I feel like the exile clause is super relevant against them.
They're pretty much the same card against hollow one, the only difference being that tendrills exiles their flamewake phoenix.
Although at that point I'd rather just be playing anger of the gods.
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Modern:UBRDeath's ShadowUBR, CEldrazi StompyC,WUBRGSliversWUBRG, UBRGTraverse ShadowUBRG,RUGtempo pileRUG Pauper:UdelverU they slaughtered my deck i miss gush and daze..
I wouldn't play both JTMS and Lingering Souls in the same SB, they come in against similar decks, and there's no need to go with two different SB strategies at once vs midrange and control.
I would argue that souls is slightly more flexible, and therefore better, since you can bring it against creature decks like elves so you have more cards to break board stalls and block creatures. Also, on the godless shrine thing, while it does suck, it's still possible to cast souls because of flashback, it can just makes your future plays a little more awkward.
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Modern:UBRDeath's ShadowUBR, CEldrazi StompyC,WUBRGSliversWUBRG, UBRGTraverse ShadowUBRG,RUGtempo pileRUG Pauper:UdelverU they slaughtered my deck i miss gush and daze..
I disagree, but my experience with Lingering Souls is pretty limited. I was however pretty underwhelmed since they mostly just managed to push the game further into the lategame, where my deck was weaker than the opponents in the MU's I brought them in. I removed them from my SB after a couple of events. Jace on the other hand has been pretty great so far, Brainstorming into more threats and answers is terrific, and with the number of fetches we run he can usually perform a 'perfect' brainstorm.
I'm not currently playing souls, but my experience with it was bringing it vs creature decks like elves, taxes, humans and hollow one to help chump their dudes till I could stabilize. I would also occasionally bring it vs uw control, as it is hard for them to deal with, and you can just hold your threats and wait for them to wrath the tokens so you can start slamming delve creatures and shadows.
Lingering souls is impressive, but doesn't feel worth the 4-5ish sideboard slots it takes up. I might try souls in the main, and see how that plays out since I think it's good against a couple of our rougher matchups but putting them in the board takes up space for the cards that are good for us in other matchups like tron or titanshift or jund.
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Modern:UBRDeath's ShadowUBR, CEldrazi StompyC,WUBRGSliversWUBRG, UBRGTraverse ShadowUBRG,RUGtempo pileRUG Pauper:UdelverU they slaughtered my deck i miss gush and daze..
In the matchups I've played against Jund the early discard was key and in a couple of games I just left Bob on the board and he did the last few points of damage (this is not ideal since they run about 25 lands but it was my only out). I do run a Dreadbore for Jace and Gideon planeswalkers and that seems great against their Lili's but it hasn't come up. Unlike the Living End decks, their cascades never seem to hit anything that just ends the game on the spot (assuming you don't play into a Maelstrom Pulse) and I was able to out value them with K-Command and Snappy's. For me the biggest target for removal was Scooze. The 3/2 body on BBE seems less relevant against our board presence when compared to decks running small creatures like Delver and Young Pyromancer that can't win in combat.
I brought in Spell Bombs to help keep Goyf in check but have been on the Extirpate plan lately and don't know how such targeted grave hate would work. It'd be fun to Extirpate their BBE I guess but I haven't seen Jund since I switched SB strategies. Goyf never seemed to matter in any of the games because our Delve guys kept him in check and 4x Fatal Push. I'd be more likely to target their Scoozes.
I'm not convinced it's worth dedicating SB space for Jund BUT if BBE is really that big of a deal and Jund becomes a significant percentage of the Metagame then some non-zero number of Double Negative out of the board would be cute on the play or on the draw while not being completely dead the rest of the time. If they cascade into Abrupt Decay it's less good but at least the body isn't on the table or one could wait and do something else I guess. I like the idea of running more discard and just fighting through the BBE. If it becomes a big enough deal then I could see a pair of Double Negative out of the board being worth it to keep the Jund deck from getting back in the game but, at that point, it's probably win more. The games where I've blown them out have all involved early Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek paired with Snapcaster Mage shenanigans. Drawing them late when you need removal feels really bad so adding more may not be right either. Bringing in Collective Brutalityfor additional discard may be good because it isn't completely dead late game. Some number of Stubborn Denial seems fine to combat Maelstrom Pulse and Liliana of the Veil.
Overall the matchup felt really swingy with cards lining up and a lot of back and forth going on or one side getting blown out. I haven't gotten to play it enough to try and guess a win percentage but it doesn't feel unwinnable and the games were fun as long as I wasn't getting flooded on lands. They seem to have a hard time recovering from discard spells because they live off the top of their deck unless Bob is in play and we have a lot of cantrips and digging going on. Their 25 lands mean top deck wars don't seem real scary and if I remember right I brought in Liliana, the Last Hope to grind the games out but that seems bad because BBE has haste and can come out of nowhere.
Grow-A-TogKeeperRandom thoughts on what you wrote:
General rule is kill Bob on sight. If you let them draw 2 extra cards that can very easily spiral into an insurmountable advantage almost immediately. There is nothing wrong with playing to the out of them dying to it if its your onlyoath to victory, but unanswered Bob rolls midrange mirrors all day.
I agree that Ooze is fantastic and should be a removal priority, certainly before Goyf unless its a 6/7 and primed to kill you. I have had games where I have a Push and two Snapcasters, push their turn two dude, then they untap and play Ooze with open G and it just completely dominates the game.
BBE's body is indeed underwhelming, but its strengths are card advantage and haste. This makes it a dangerous threat and as such a prime target for discard (just like they often target our SCMs)
Nihil Spellbomb is a fine card to bring in. DO NOT bring in Extripate or Surgical against Jund. Their deck is redundant, and doesn't depend on a specific graveyard interaction or a specific card to win. You will spend a card to do absolutely nothing unless you get lucky and snag something from their hand. Removing all their BBEs or Lilianas seems intersting but the card disadvantage will lose you games and its an off-the-charts awful topdeck.
You don't need cards specifically for Jund, but you do need access to cards that are good against Jund to board in. You need to take out TBR, you can trim or cut Stubborn Denial, and you can trim discard and or Street Wraiths.
Any planeswalkers you have are slam dunks. Both Lilianas are excellent and you should board in all copies of both. I also have a JTMS in my board, he is also a powerhouse. I have one Engineered Explosives in my board, it kills planeswalkers in a pinch but mostly it represents a clean two for one on a lot of boards because plays sooo many two drops now. I also usually board in Vendilion Clique, it isn't so much a haymaker as just a neat package of evasion, disruption, and flexibility (you can also bottom your own discard spells if the game goes long). Secondary threats like Young Pyromancer are also often good, and Fulminators are good againt Jund too.
I think something narrow like Double Negative is just too cute. There are plently more rawly powerful and widely usable cards out there that also happen to be good against Jund. I would stick to those.
Most definitely. I went back and read what I wrote... sleepy rambling is a thing I guess.
You're absolutely correct on all of your points I believe. Especially about bringing in the Extirpate effects against a deck where we need to be impacting the board. Spellbomb, at least, cantrips and shrinks GOYF. Liliana's and kill spells seem to be the best choices out of the board.
Grow-A-TogKeeper1 Anger of the Gods
1 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Collective Brutality
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Dreadbore
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pyroclasm
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Temur Battle Rage
If I pick up jace, what should I cut for him?
Is jace even any good to begin with?
Pauper: UdelverUthey slaughtered my deck i miss gush and daze..Turn 6 Karn > Turn 2 Phage
Modern:
Forest Belcher
http://deckstats.net/decks/30417/519187-forest-belcher
I have played Shadow for as long as it's been a deck, and I have seen Tasigur and Angler numbers go through all kinds of changes. In old Grixis Delver, people usually considered Tasigur to be the better card, and only played a singleton Angler because we didn't want to play 3 of the same legend. Looking back this could easily have been very wrong, but it was the conventional wisdom at the time. In Grixis control, Tasigur is pretty clearly the better card because you use the ability often, and he is more of a finisher than a fast clock to jam on turn two.
Shadow lists often started at 3-1 Tasigur to Angler, but moved pretty quickly to 2-2. The current ratio is probably close to 0.5-3.5, and it would be easy to conclude that Angler's numbers have steadily increasing is just proof that its better. This could be correct but I don't think it is cut and dry. The addition of Street Wraith when moving to Shadow from Delver or control does make a big difference, and is a point in favor of Angler. The more Reality Smasher and Tarmogoyf we see, the better Angler gets.
As far as ease of casting, I think there is really only a small difference to point of almost being negligible. Relic slows both down but eventually you overcome or force them to crack it, Rest in Peace wrecks both of them hard. If you are running into a lot of these type of card there is some merit to Tasigur, especially on the play, as you can brute force him into play to get under their hate, but in reality they end up playing out similarly. One thing of note is that Tasigur does occasionally come into play on turn two without Thought Scour, while Angler basically requires Thought Scour or a completely freak Street Wraith hand.
About the activated ability: I know plenty of people think it never comes up, but it really does. If you delve properly (and of course get a little lucky) then it can create advantage that does matter. It will come up infrequently, but in a drag out game against something like Jund even overpaying to buyback an Opt or Thought Scour can give you a little edge. That all being said, does this compensate for having one less power? Probably not, but dismissing it outright is a mistake. It is a legitimate upside of the card.
Other thoughts:
Random story from GP Kyoto: I had 3 cards in my yard, one untapped land in play, and my opponent had a tapped Relic with mana to activate. I had Angler in hand, and a Thought Scour that would power him out but also prompt cracking the Relic. I also had an IoK, which will come up later. I play and crack a fetchland, and I was very deliberate about putting it on the yard and on the stack and passing priority. I did this for two reasons. One was because we were technically at Professional REL and I wanted to be clear and precise, but the other is because I wanted my opponent to crack the relic. I of course wanted those cards in my yard, but I needed the Relic out of my hair. I wanted to play Scour and have everything stick, and also wanted full info and more options for the IoK. I will note that if I had Tasigur in my hand, I would have tried to play slightly faster with the fetch to try to get him into play while my opponent waits to stop Angler or snag more value. He cracked, and I played out the next two turns just like I wanted. This is really small and specific, and I was playing against a savvy player on day 2 of a GP, but these little things add up. If my opponent knows for a fact that all GDS lists play 4 Anglers and 0 Tasigur, then he knows the magic number there is 5 instead of 4 and can safely continue to sit on it. Me making my 'I have Tasigur and am really hoping you just pass priority' pouty face made my opponent do exactly what I wanted them to do and made my turn and my following turn play out better.
I obviously won't say we should play an inferior card just for "keep them on their toes" value, but you can take advantages of little things like this. Other random advantages of mixing up threats: Runed Halo and Maelstrom Pulse. I haven't seen too many Runed Halos lately so it probably isn't too much of an issue, but I have seen plenty of Jund lists with 2 Pulses recently so that is a legitimate point to think about. (Admittedly, Shadows are way more likely to get Pulsed, but its still a real thing).
That got longer than expected.
tl:dr - I would say 0.5/3.5 split of Tasigur to Angler is roughly optimal. Either is probably fine, but at the end of the day Angler is the better card, so I could easily see the argument that you should play 4, even without Bauble. So to answer your question of whether we should be "strongly considering" this? Firm yes.
Round 1 - WIN vs. Jeskai Control (2-1) (1-0)
Game 1: I win the dice roll and Thoughtseize into uncountered Angler and Death's Shadow. He is not able to deal with the beats with having ineffective Bolts and Electrolyze and I kill him before Supreme Verdict.
Game 2: I punt this game pretty hard. I land a T2 Death's Shadow off of fetches and a T1 Thoughtseize and so I know he has Supreme Verdict in hand, but only 3 lands. I have a full grip of counterspells and draw another discard to look at his hand. I see the Supreme Verdict but decide to be aggressive and discard something else (I think a Snapcaster Mage) so he has no offensive action. Unfortunately the next turn he draws his 4th land, Verdicts, and kills my Death's Shadow. I never draw another creature and he eventually kills me with a Celestial Colonnade. Bad, bad play by me.
Game 3: I T1 Inquisition his Path to Exile, immediately Surgical Extraction it - and remove another Path to Exile from his hand - then drop a T2 Angler knowing full well he has no way to kill it other than a 4-drop Verdict. Fish Angel does what it does and I counter anything pertinent along the way.
Round 2 - WIN vs. Hollow One (2-0) (2-0)
Game 1: I flood the board with multiple creatures, and kill all of his except a single Hollow One that I don't care about because Death's Shadow and Angler are just bigger. I run him over before he develops any kind of a board.
Game 2: T1 he discards a Hollow One off of a random discard (Burning Inquiry) and I immediately Surgical it. Unfortunately he has sided in Young Pyromancer and Waste Not to try and grind me out. He gets several tokens of each but I eventually kill the YP with a Dismember, we trade Anglers, I play a second Angler and start attacking into the tokens. On one of the later turns I play an Inquisition and see he has a Bedlam Reveler remaining in hand but only 1 red mana. I play a Nihil Spellbomb to pop his GY to totally prevent him from casting it, draw a Temur Battle Rage off of the cantrip, and next turn proceed to Battle Rage an Angler thru a bunch of tokens to kill him.
Round 3 - WIN vs. Jeskai Control (2-1) (3-0)(this guy made Day 2)
Game 1: He is able to Path an early Death's Shadow and then kills me with a series of Helixes and Bolts because my life was around 9 life or so from aggressive fetches.
Game 2: I discard his creature removal spells, drop a Young Pyromancer, and watch it grow out of control by cantripping every turn (Serum Visions, Thought Scour, Thought Scour). I end the game with 5 tokens in play along with a YP.
Game 3: T1 discard his Path, T2 Angler, then ride Angler out to victory with 3 Stubborn Denials on the following: Electrolyze on T3 (to prevent card draw), Jace on T4 (to prevent unsummon effect), and Settle the Wreckage on T5.
At this point the deck has been doing well, I've been able to consistently discard my opponent on Turn 1, get a big Angler or DS turn 2, and use removal and counters to ride out wins.
Round 4 - LOSS vs. Hollow One (0-2) (3-1) (this guy made Day 2)
Game 1: I go first and Serum Visions. He goes Burning Inquiry and drops 2 Hollow One on his first turn. Fortunately I am okay since I am able to drop an Angler and our life totals seesaw back and forth. I eventually attack and bring him to 1 life, we are both at 1 life but I can't draw a burn, removal, or creature spell to block/kill him. He attacks and gets through with one attacker to kill me.
Game 2: He plays double Flameblade Adept and an early Angler. I play a T2 Angler and am able to Kommand to kill an Adept. Unfortunately I cannot stabilize in time as he loots a Flameblade Phoenix into his GY and proceeds to play it. The 2 in the air each turn kill me because I cannot draw removal spells. I sided out a bunch of Fatal Push this game which in retrospect was a mistake as that could have saved me a turn of air damage or killed a ground creature so I could attack more aggressively. GG not having experience versus Hollow One decks.
Round 5 - LOSS vs. Tron (0-2) (3-2)
Game 1: He goes T1 Ancient Stirrings, T2 Ancient Stirrings and Map, Tron into Karn. I have him down to 5 life but he exiles my creatures and I cannot draw the burn spells to finish him off.
Game 2: I look at his hand of 7 and it has: Power Plant, Mine, Tower (natural Tron, wtf?), Relic, Relic, Sylvan, Karn. Have a better hand, please? I'm actually able to do okay early on since I counter his Karn and drop a Death's Shadow, though it was only a 3/3 (and not ferocious for Stubborn Denial, which was important), he uses the Sylvan to find Sanctum of Ugin, plays something to find another Karn which I am able to deal with. I have him dead with a Death's Shadow but he top-decks another Karn and exiles my threat. He then eventually searches for and plays a giant Walking Ballista and kills me.
Round 6: LOSS vs. Kiki Chord (1-2) (3-3)
Game 1: He mulligans to 5, I drop an Angler and rip apart anything he tries to do.
Game 2: He combos with Deceiver Exarch and Kiki. I'm dumb and don't use my removal correctly to stop the combo. I'm bad at Magic.
Game 3: This game goes long, he Maelstrom Pulses the Liliana, the Last Hope I drop, Paths both of my threats. We are both in top deck mode and he rips a Chord, into Eternal Witness, grabbing Chord, then eventually grabbing the combo pieces he needs. I cannot draw anything and flood out on lands.
Round 7: WIN vs. Mardu Pyromancer (2-1) (4-3)
I don't have notes for these games other than that they were very grindy. One of the games he is able to restabilize with Bedlam Reveler, the other I am able to discard it so he runs out of gas. In G3 he does refill on gas, the round goes to time, however, I am able to Snapcaster Mage targeting a Temur Battle Rage in my GY, cast it on my Fish Angel, trample for exact lethal to win.
Round 8: WIN vs. Goblins (2-1) (5-3)
Game 1: He plays out a bunch of goblins, I am able to start stabilizing, however he casts Goblin Grenade to do exact lethal damage.
Game 2: I play multiple Push to kill off his creatures, drop a Fish Angel, gg. Never really in doubt since I strategically fetched for lands to preserve life.
Game 3: He plays a T1 Legion Loyalist, T2 War Marshall, T3 Bushwhacker. I go T2 Push on the Loyalist, T3 Snap and Push, blocking and killing Bushwhacker, T4 Kozilek's Return to wipe his board. He has no creatures in play and 1 card in hand. I cast Kommand making him discard the card, which turns out to be a Goblin Grenade (I was at 6 life). I stock up removal and use it to prevent him from ever sticking a creature on the board and kill him with a bunch of creatures.
Round 9: WIN vs. Infect (2-0) (6-3)
Game 1: I win dice roll, T1 IoK discarding an infect creature, T2 I push his Noble Hierarch, T3 I Scour and drop a Tasigur, he scoops.
Game 2: I T1 Push his Noble, T2 I IoK his Dismember and push his Glistener Elf, I follow up with Death's Shadow, he fetches for a Dryad Arbor and plays another Noble Hierarch and Glistener Elf. I topdeck an Izzet Staticaster and that is game. It only drags on a little bit because he topdecks back-to-back Finks, but there is never a doubt after I drop another Death's Shadow.
Overall the deck feels totally fine for the meta, there were never any matches that felt out of reach despite people saying GDS is out of style (whatever that means). Decks that run mainboard Relic could be an issue, as well as Rest in Peace out of the side. In general I am leaning towards putting in a 4th Angler over Tasigur since there were a few games where my opponent was low on life (between 1-5 life) and so the extra point of damage could be a difference-maker.
They're pretty much the same card against hollow one, the only difference being that tendrills exiles their flamewake phoenix.
Although at that point I'd rather just be playing anger of the gods.
Pauper: UdelverUthey slaughtered my deck i miss gush and daze..Turn 6 Karn > Turn 2 Phage
Pauper: UdelverUthey slaughtered my deck i miss gush and daze..Turn 6 Karn > Turn 2 Phage
Lingering souls is impressive, but doesn't feel worth the 4-5ish sideboard slots it takes up. I might try souls in the main, and see how that plays out since I think it's good against a couple of our rougher matchups but putting them in the board takes up space for the cards that are good for us in other matchups like tron or titanshift or jund.
Pauper: UdelverUthey slaughtered my deck i miss gush and daze..Turn 6 Karn > Turn 2 Phage
Nevermind, cool guy, hit him up on Twitter and he emailed it to me. MtG is a pretty cool community.