MTG Salvation

So I decided I wanted to build this deck, here's the list I can come up with.


The lack of Scalding tarns and only two snapcasters are simply for budget reasons. Thoughts on this list?

I've very much felt the effects of cutting a fetchland and it effecting push revolts or needing to crack for more life.

While Donegans article was great I did very much look at the other two players you just listed.

I think until Anger of the God needs to be mandatory again I wouldn't really consider it. Radiant flames has also been very easy to access without needing two red sources.

Kyrie looked like he was expecting a lot of dredge, he had 3x surgicals, 2x angers and 1x Blood Crypt in his board.

I definitely accept discard is better early, but I think it's worst than Denials late. Neither seem like the best top deck late game, but being able to answer a topdeck threat seems better than having a Thoughtseize when there's potentially nothing in their hand. My biggest concern is always making sure to draw less dead cards. You might be right that the discard is okay simply because it answers creatures (especially the Delve ones), but I've seen opponents draw it late game and get punished by it.

I can see an argument for Bolt + Snap + Bolt, not sure if I would keep in my one-of Bolt for that reason. It's often a pretty dead card since it doesn't kill much and would be only something to do at the end of a game. I will admit, games often do get to a point where you can win like that. I've always seen some argument for Fatal Push, it's just a matter of whether I think it'll be useful enough of the time. I play a lot of removal that can kill Shadow and the delve creatures (two Terminates main, three Lili total, and a Dreadbore in the board).

I tend to like Street Wraith in some number because it's not bad late game. I've won games from an unblockable Street Wraith in the mirror, it absolutely happens.

I also do agree K Command is clunky, but if the game goes late, it's not that bad. I can deal with one Spellbomb, it's not that hard to deal with.

I feel like I just need a ton of testing in sideboarded games to find out what the correct board is.

How does stubborn feel for you with three lilis

What do we think of dismember? I've noticed a lot of lists running a 1/1 dismember/terminate split lately, but it always feels too all-in for me. Against most creature decks or in grindy games (where the spot removal is particularly relevant) you often want to board out your street wraiths because too much life loss causes issues with hitting land drops and protecting yourself from random silliness lategame. So why do we run spot removal that either costs us life or is a worse terminate, when most matchups where it'd actually have targets are ones where an extra 2-4 life makes a big difference?

It's good against the human decks because meddling mage does not turn it off, and against eldrazi tron it gets everything and bumps up the death shadow as well with making it more mana efficient. Yes 2-4 life is a lot but it does make an impact, even kills gideons when terminate cannot.

Below is the deck I'll be taking to OKC. I've read a lot of the articles lately and noted down Dylan's suggestions on sideboarding. Those were focused on Tier 1 decks, but there were some other matchups that I had thoughts on. I get stuck where I see cards I want to bring in, but struggle to identify what I should take out. Open to suggestions. Between these and Donegan's, I think that covers the majority of the meta.



Burn
-4 Street Wraith
-4 Thoughtseize

+EE
+2 Stubborn
+2 K-Return
+1 Collective Brutality
+1 Temur Battle Rage
+1 Last Hope?

Scapeshift
-1 Thoughtseize
-1 IoK
-2 Street Wraith

+2 Stubborn Denial
+1 Collective Brutality
+1 LOTV
+1 EE (? - unsure what else to take out, maybe another Wraith)

Affinity
-4 Thoughtseize
-2 Stubborn Denial (worth keeping in? Key card is Plating, but figure sideboard cards are better at it)
-1 Street Wraith

+1 EE
+2 K Return
+1 K Command
+2 Ceremonious
+1 Staticaster
+1 Last Hope

Counters Company
-1 Dismember
-1 K-Command
-2 Thoughtseize
-1 Unsure of what else

+1 EE
+2 K-Return
+1 Last Hope
+1 Staticaster
+1 Brutality

Thinking about switching over to this deck as I have it mostly built ezcept for LOTV in the side and the 4th tarn. However, I am hesitant because I feel like the deck has really underperformed in my testing. Burn feels unwinnable and Jeskai and affinity atlre also really hard.

It seems like any competent burn player who knows to kill your threats, even if it takes two spells, and holds their burn for a sequence of eot bolt untap kill you will win the game easily. They have the inevitability AND the better early game. I don't see how burn can be at all a favorable matchup. the only games I've won against burn involve multiple stubborn denials and getting lucky not flooding on street wraiths. Even after trying to tune the mainboard to cut red entirely and have smooth UB mana and 3 stubborn denials, I have a less than 50% preboard, which is unacceptable imo. The preboard matchup feels so bad I am turned away from the deck.

Control variants also feel impossible. Without a LOTV mainboard, there is just no way to compete because we have to both prevent the burn gameplan as well as maintain threats.

I just don't understand how the deck is tier 1 with so many bad matchups. Maybe I'm keeping incorrectly. Do you all tend to mull hands without a threat? When is it right to try to resolve a shadow?

I also think there are cards that need more consideration in the deck. Pyroclasm seems really strong, I would consider a mainboard Lotv or brutality to throw away topdeck wraiths, crash through looks very strong as an alternative to battle rage, and deprive seems great in a build with minimal red. I also think 4 opt is a lot stronger than serum visions because of its synergy with stubborn denial, and it helps dig for lands better than SV which is more important than the deeper scry which gets lots to fetching half the time anyway.

I firmly believe that, in most matchups, a 6 or 7 without a threat isn't keepable (others may dispute me on this). A 7 that can't get a 4/4 shadow or delve creature out t3, blind at least, is usually a mull too, though we have enough cheap spells and life loss that if I can eventually cast a threat I'm more flexible in matches that aren't explicitly races. An MB LoTV can be a fine meta call, but it is meta-dependant- I used to be on 2 mb, which was pretty great until more robots and fish replaced the e-tron and storm I had been seeing.

Burn comes down to a couple points of life usually- you shouldn't be fetch-shocking vs. them unless it's going to allow you to stick a blocker and they already have a creature down. Fetching tapped shocks and basics vs. them is way more important than usual. Don't use stubb D for anything besides something that'll literally kill you, blood moon (without a swamp + island out), RIP (if you have a delve threat in hand), or a path that'll kill your only creature. Sideboard out your street wraiths, go up to 4 stubb Ds, then bring in all your brutalities, then bring in... young pryos? I still like thoughtseize in the matchup because it can protect you from their post-board haymakers or get rid of an eidolon, which can single-handedly end the matchup exceedingly quickly. Snapcaster mage as just an ambush viper to trade 1-for-1 with one of their creatures is a perfectly acceptable plan. You want to land a creature early.

Jeskai control/tempo is probably a terrible matchup, but I haven't really played that matchup much. Anything with that many bolts alongside snapcasters and fliers to exploit that reach is terrifying.

Vs. U/W control, I try to shave on spot removal for LOTVs and going up on stubb Ds. An argument can probably be made for Young Pyro and Brutality as well. I haven't had much practice with this matchup, but generally what I try to do is discard their board wipes. If they have a verdict and you had to get something else (or they have two verdicts), be careful not to play into it- you want to minimize their 2-for-1s as much as possible. I haven't had the opportunity to test this with TBRs yet, but I think you SB those out too. These are definitely our worst matchups though.

Affinity is like burn, but your discard becomes worse much faster. You want to fetch like you would against burn imo, and sb out your street wraiths (which are a liability in both matchups). You probably also want to shave on discard- not all of it, because affinity hands usually rely on 1-2 pieces to actually work and so that can buy you time. Bring in all your rejections and all your board wipes, and max out on Kommands. I don't think young pyros are good here, affinity doesn't care too much about legions of ground-based blockers, despite how wide they can get.

You guys are all talking about postboard games though. A matchup cant be overall favored if your preboard is unwinnable and you're counting on winning both postboard games...

Stubborn Denial with Lilianas seems fine, mostly because the matchups where Liliana is good is gamebreaking. There aren't very many scenarios where both matter significantly.

You tend to crush the mirror with her because it's impossible to deal with. They have like no ways to kill her, maybe Bolt, K Command, or Snapcaster. The deck typically doesn't land multiple creatures at once in the mirror, so typically she can eat guys and stay alive. I once had a comp REL mirror where she got up to 9 counters. The fact she often kills more than one creature makes a huge difference since nobody's playing multiple dudes at once.

I think Dismember is fine, it's not a ton different from Terminate or Dreadbore. They're all flexible and all that matters is what decks you're concerned about. Dreadbore is good in the mirror, Dismember is good if they have land destruction or you want to pain yourself, Terminate is good if you don't want to pain yourself. You can play any of them realistically, just probably not too many Dismembers.

That's one of the reasons this deck is considered difficult, because a single mistake is usually a big thing. Being off one mana somewhere, a card short in your graveyard, math wrong on your life total, it's all easy for it to occur and easy for it to be a big thing. A deck like Burn is usually much more forgiving on mistakes because you generally get to situations where you can topdeck lethal. Our deck usually doesn't have that option (outside of like Bolt / Snap situations).

Burn always felt a little unfavourable to me. The games often come down to the last turn or so, having a Death's Shadow in play and messing up their math can be big. I've certainly won a game like that before.

After three long weeks playing other formats, I am back.

I want to try to cut the Scours entirely, playing a full set of Opt, Visions and Street Wraith.
Yeah, Call me crazy
I just REALLY wanna see how it goes and on which it improves the deck or makes it worse.

I won't go that far, I'll leave that testing to you. However, I want to add that I'm on Opt train right now. I really like card selection vs random card draw, scry 2. Snap Opt has also been great, letting you attack with snap on your turn. It also lets you bluff a stubborn denial which may throw your opponents off.

Let us know how dropping thought scour affects the deck!

I really agree with this, going to play test it also, thought scour has felt great at times but the thing is do we really want to be putting our delve threats out quick? The grixis version compared to the other versions; except esper version, feels more controlling than aggroish.

Quote from Ayiluss »

I was thinking about adding TBR in the md (one copy, the other being in sb). Actually I've already done it but move it to the sb again. I think it's a good card that can help us against many different decks such as various swarm decks that can be tough matchups otherwise or just put up faster clock against combo and big mana decks. It's not as good as it is in 5 color shadow but I still think it's worth playing in md. The issue here however is that I don't know what to cut. When I first time tried it I cut 3rd Stubborn Denial but now I put in back in and moved TBR in sb. Depending on the expected metagame TBR might be even better than Stubborn Denial making 2/1 split of the two reasonable but in general I think I still want 3 copies of Stubborn Denial in md. Therefore I started wondering myself if cutting 1 Opt be other possible option. In this case I would play 3x Stubborn Denial, 1x TBR and 1x Opt but I'm note sure if this is good.

Anyway I would like to hear others opinion on this. Does this sound reasonable or it's just stupid idea that I'm better to forget about right away?

Right now I'm on two Battle Rage and the full four Stubborn Denial main. So far I'm liking it, but right now with work I haven't had a chance to play much so after testing that could change.

Quote from kanoe1218 »

I really agree with this, going to play test it also, thought scour has felt great at times but the thing is do we really want to be putting our delve threats out quick? The grixis version compared to the other versions; except esper version, feels more controlling than aggroish.

Tell us how it goes as well.
On a few playtests I feel that it makes our delve threats slower but greatly improves our draw quality without spending 2 more slots to cantrips. But I am only gonna be sure about its results and how much it affects the deck after playing 2 or 3 weeks with it.


@Ayiluss - I really think 14 cantrips are too much air for GDS, so I think it's okay to cut 1 opt or 1 visions for TBR.

Basically every GDS pilot I come across comments on the lack of threat density in GDS. As a way to remedy that, I see:

* Comments like "just be prepared to mulligan more in matchup where you have to pressure them"

* GDS pilots moving to 5C

* Decklists moving 14 cantrips to have more shots at seeing a threat

* Swapping a Terminate for Dismember to play T2 DSs slightly more often

* Sideboarding Young Pyromancers to go up to 10 threats in games 2 and 3

Seemingly no one is doing the obvious in just adding more threats in the main deck. Lili, TBR, K Command, 4th Snap, 3rd Stub, Bolts, Opts, these are all flex slots that could be 2-3 Young Pyros. With a surge in gravehate and GDS recently, it's nice to have tech against RIP and pro-black creatures too.

With some GDS decklists on one red card main these days, another option looks pretty appealing too.

FWIW I tried MDing YP awhile back, and didn't really like it. It's a threat, but not really a good one most of the time. I didn't like it much as a SB card either though.

There is no need to reinvent the wheel. The deck plays delve threat and Snapcaster mage, it follows that Thought Scour is an essential part of the strategy. If you remove them you have to remove Tasigur and Angler and now it's not the same deck. Spare yourself the trouble.

Quote from AcademyRuins »

Basically every GDS pilot I come across comments on the lack of threat density in GDS. As a way to remedy that, I see:


Seemingly no one is doing the obvious in just adding more threats in the main deck. Lili, TBR, K Command, 4th Snap, 3rd Stub, Bolts, Opts, these are all flex slots that could be 2-3 Young Pyros. With a surge in gravehate and GDS recently, it's nice to have tech against RIP and pro-black creatures too.

With some GDS decklists on one red card main these days, another option looks pretty appealing too.

ElCascador's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
Creatures (19) 4 Death's Shadow 4 Tarmogoyf 2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang 1 Gurmag Angler 4 Snapcaster Mage 4 Street Wraith Instants (13) 3 Fatal Push 1 Abrupt Decay 2 Dismember 3 Stubborn Denial 4 Thought Scour	Sorceries (10) 2 Inquisition of Kozilek 4 Thoughtseize 4 Serum Visions Lands (18) 4 Verdant Catacombs 4 Polluted Delta 4 Misty Rainforest 2 Watery Grave 1 Overgrown Tomb 1 Breeding Pool 1 Swamp 1 Island	Sideboard 1 Artful Dodge 1 Stubborn Denial 2 Ceremonious Rejection 2 Disdainful Stroke 2 Collective Brutality 1 Abrupt Decay 2 Flaying Tendrils 2 Liliana of the Veil 1 Liliana, the Last Hope 1 Nihil Spellbomb

That's just a bad 5C Shadow deck. If you play Tarmogoyf you want Bauble or at least some planeswalker. Also, if you go green then you can play traverse the ulvenwald as a way to find threats. This in between list is really not appealing. 5C shadow is the list with the higher threat density.