For Haymaker..I liked your idea suggested a while back supporting Hazoret the Fervent. It's not amazing against UW but great against most mid-range decks. I haven't had any opportunities to test lately but I think I'll try it as a 1x main deck.
Edit:
Another option suggested to me by a fellow Traverse Shadow player is to run a single Tombstalker . I like Hazzy more though because he doesn't care about the graveyard.
Tombstalker isn't really a haymaker since it's just a dude they can kill. A haymaker should generate value or be annoying for them to kill in some way. Hazoret is pretty good against Jund and BG, but that seems to be it. Against Path decks you can't really justify sinking that much mana into into Hazzy.
Maybe the solution is to cut blue so we can splash white for Souls + Ranger. Before Assassin's Trophy, it was hard to cut blue because you needed a bit more interaction for the combo and especially big mana decks. Trophy happens to be that interaction in several matchups. Not all, but Tron in particular, and it also does some light work against a lot of combo decks that have random permanents we can pick off. Against e.g. Storm or KCI we can supplement with more graveyard interaction than normal. The biggest hole in this plan is Valakut, but as long as that isn't heavily played, I think we're ok. The second biggest hole is Burn, which probably requires some extra SB attention.
Edit: took a Jund + white build (with no Manamorphoses) for a spin in a league, and it felt decent, going 3-2. Lingering Souls was great against Jund, and is probably still fine against UW despite Field of Ruin because we can always LotV them away. Ranger I'm more skeptical of, and want to cut. One of the matches I lost to Amulet, which, add to Valakut and Burn for the list of decks where losing countermagic really hurts us.
I think the biggest hole (in that plan) is burn because it's a much more popular deck that Valakut and Stub has been so critical for me there. Even against KCI, Storm, and UW control I think Stub is better than Atrophy. The only real match where I'd want Souls instead of blue is against Jund and BGx, but even then I think Spell Snare could be our answer here. Ranger is my favorite offering from white and I'd really love to include him somehow for these matches. Souls just seems so low impact. Great against LOTV but not much else.
(I ninja-edited my last post just before you posted, if you missed it)
Burn is fixable without countermagic though. Phyrexian Unlife, and more Collective Brutality, for example. Valakut, on the other hand, has no real substitutes.
I don't think Snare is going to have a large impact in BGx matchups. It trades 1-for-1 with cards you already have no problem dealing with (2 mana creatures), and Assassin's Trophy. It's fine, but not a major incentive to be blue.
I think Souls is fine against control too. It forces them to wrath. But yeah, that's definitely a matchup where I'd rather have blue and try to protect the queen. Even then, we're probably still significant dog in the matchup. Especially if they're red. I'm not sure how to significantly move the needle in these matchups, and short of that, I'd rather ignore them.
Bedlam Reveler is interesting for sure, but double red is pretty rough, and the susceptibility to graveyard hate is pretty rough, and it's effectively just as slow as Ranger. Most of our manabases only have 2 red lands, so a single mana denial spell is just as disruptive against both Ranger and Reveler. I like Ranger better since it's less susceptible to GY hate, but if you build around Reveler a little more (with more red lands and maybe stuff like Thought Scour) I could flip my opinion. But is it worth it?
The grindy-ish card that actually feels decent against control is Whispers of Emrakul (assuming it's turned on consistently enough). Creatures are too easy for them to interact with, and planeswalkers tend to be a bit too expensive. But discard spell into t2 do some things into t3 hymn into t4 threat might just get them. But turning it on is pretty annoying. Something I might experiment with, anyway, but I'm not super optimistic.
You've mentioned in the past that adding Thought Scour to our cantrio suite would be the best enabler for Whispers. But what about Architects of Will? The card has already seen play as a singleton, and it has the late-game potential to Fateseal your opponent from topdecking an answer. How many Whispers would you speculate? It seems really good for the UW match, because even late game it's likely to still get them for 2x cards. It's not great against Jund/Mardu but potentially useful against Scapeshift, Storm, and Tron. The latter three really need it turned on asap though. Maybe something like:
Red & blue come out against UW and BGx, bringing in white for utility.
Blue comes out against Aggro and creature-based combo, bringing in red for TBR.
White stays out against Burn, Tron, KCI in favor of additional blue utility.
This way a 5-color list can keep to 3 colors most games, unless the opponent won't be attacking our Mana (like Tron or Burn)
Architects of Will is fine as an enabler, but it's redundant with Mishra's Bauble. Scour is really much better at enabling it, along with having a smattering of planeswalkers and some other weird card types (Tarfire, Seal of Fire, etc). Though I'm thinking in a Jund + White shell, so we don't have access to Scour. In that case, I could see a singleton Architects of Will to increase the chance of hitting an artifact, but it'll be rough. I'm not sure it can be done.
If it's good, I can see it as a 2-3 of, basically what you have.
To give you an idea of what you need to do to support it, here's the Grixis shell I tried (within a 1-2 cards anyway):
That shell could have Whispers turned on fairly consistently by turn 3, but sometimes would have a LOOOT of trouble if it drew the wrong mix of cards. Plus there were all these sequencing issues with delve creatures and Snapcaster. Luckily Tarmogoyf + Traverse solves that problem, but it's still rough to get delirium that fast consistently enough. Notice, I had to sacrifice the IoKs to get it done! Mixing in some Tarfire would help. This was also before Search for Azcanta was printed, which might be an ok 1-2 of in this shell.
I'm really more interested in Whispers in a nonblue shell because, if we can turn it on fast enough, it solves a couple of problems: 1) something grindy that's good against control, 2) something decent against the spell based combo decks and big mana decks to make up for losing countermagic. Then we just let Lingering Souls carry us in the BGx matchups.
Maybe a Jund + White shell that can turn it on just goes HARD on tarfire. I'm not sure if it'll be good enough, but here's a sketch:
I'd like to squeeze an Architects of Will in there, but there's hardly any room. I'd also like a second TBR, but again. Anyway, that's just a sketch. In reality, it's probably a 2 Whispers deck (MD anyway), but to test it going up to 3 is right.
Edit: add 2nd Grim Flayer as another card I want but there's no room for.
In my experience running the 4x manamorphose + 2-3 Tarfires enables you, more often than not to have delerium on T2 or T3 the latest. Obviously there are some matches where this won't be the case, but I still think it could be nice.
Thought Scour for Traverse shadow seems weird to me. With Grixis you already have the weird issues with milling your shocks - but that issue is much much worse in Traverse shadow. We need to be 3 color only for that to work IMO.
I'm expecting to play Jund + Blue for GP Liverpool (Unified Modern). My expectations are that not a lot of midrange decks will show up - which is why I won't be running the White cards. Main deck on my team where there will be some issues wrt. card availability is Burn, in short this means the following cards are out for me:
Lightning Bolt
Stomping Ground
Grim Lavamancer
I think I can manage to get this to work anyways. I'll have to accept that against UW, if I'm having a heavy advantage by turn 4 that I've probably lost. I have a couple of lists that I'm toying around with at the moment. First off I'm really unsure of whether I should go with Manamorphose and just be aggro maindeck - with the grindier cards in the sideboard, or if I should drop the Manamorphoses for some planeswalkers and possibly Kolaghan's Command maindeck. With an expected meta of Creature decks (Spirits, Humans, etc.), Combo (KCI, Storm, maybe Ad Nauseum) and Control (UW/Jeskai) + the last remaining random decks - where would you guy draw the line here?
I think I am settled on 18 lands, due to wanting 2x red and 2x blue sources, so I'd probably only play 3 Manamorphose if it comes to it. I'm also not sure if Assassin's Trophy should be some split between main and side or purely in the sideboard. There's lots of stuff to think about here. For reference here are the two different builds I'm considering (some cards in the board are missing as I'm unsure of what to fill them with, feedback welcome):
I know Languish appeared recently in a top8 list, but personally I can't get behind that card. The main matches where you want it are Humans and Spirits and both have very powerful protection (Thalia and Mausoleum Wanderer) that essentially this make cost 5.
Also Assassin's Trophy is bad against Humans, Spirits, and also Storm so I would maybe suggest running a split with Decay or maybe Trophy in the sideboard. The main match where you want it is UWx and that's really it. It's useful against Tron but that match should be a slam dunk anyway.
I think your land set-up is solid. Personally I'd prefer the 4th MM and 17 land but that's just me. Would you consider adding a Wooded Foothills? Maybe in place of a Marsh flats. Just something that can grab a basic Forest and also Breeding Pool.
I know you mentioned Lightning bolt availability as a problem, but I seriously think you need a more reliable answer for X/3 threats such as Mantis Rider, Spell Queller, Supreme Phantom (maybe an additional Dismember?). Push is not always revolted and coupled with my aforementioned weakness to those archetypes, I would suggest preparing better for them.
Any anticipation of Affinity or Modular? I would at least one K-Command in the 75 would be helpful because it works against KCI and Lanternless. Abrade is also nice
After getting some reps on mtgo comp leagues, I don't think Whispers is worth the squeeze. The killer is that i want to side tarfire out against control, but if i do it's a lot harder to turn whispers on quickly.
That said, i'm winning a lot of matches. 3-2, 3-2, 4-1 across 3 leagues. Absolutely destroying dredge (5-0 in matches, 10-1 in games), and doing ok against humans (2-0 in matches, though they were close). The tron matchup feels like we're a hair away from turning it, but I'm 0-3 (including an egregious punt on my part). That last league I added a Fulminator to my SB as a traverse target, but still got donked on by tron, because of running Thragtusks keeping him out of shadow + TBR range by exactly 1 point 3 turns in a row. Lingering Souls has been nice against Jund, hasn't done much against Mardu (when I do bring it in), and my only control match my opponent kept awful hands and died, so idk there. At this point I'm thinking about cutting them and trying 2x Hazoret instead so I can have (SB only!) countermagic for tron, burn, and the anyone else it's relevant against. Hazzy isn't as good against the grindy decks, but it's so hard to get percentage points there that I'm inclined to basically concede that it'll always be bad and never all that close.
After getting some reps on mtgo comp leagues, I don't think Whispers is worth the squeeze. The killer is that i want to side tarfire out against control, but if i do it's a lot harder to turn whispers on quickly.
That said, i'm winning a lot of matches. 3-2, 3-2, 4-1 across 3 leagues. Absolutely destroying dredge (5-0 in matches, 10-1 in games), and doing ok against humans (2-0 in matches, though they were close). The tron matchup feels like we're a hair away from turning it, but I'm 0-3 (including an egregious punt on my part). That last league I added a Fulminator to my SB as a traverse target, but still got donked on by tron, because of running Thragtusks keeping him out of shadow + TBR range by exactly 1 point 3 turns in a row. Lingering Souls has been nice against Jund, hasn't done much against Mardu (when I do bring it in), and my only control match my opponent kept awful hands and died, so idk there. At this point I'm thinking about cutting them and trying 2x Hazoret instead so I can have (SB only!) countermagic for tron, burn, and the anyone else it's relevant against. Hazzy isn't as good against the grindy decks, but it's so hard to get percentage points there that I'm inclined to basically concede that it'll always be bad and never all that close.
Hi spooly,
Could you elaborate on how you play and side vs dredge in general?
I have always had a rough time with this matchup and I have regarded it as a terrible matchup in my experience (on par with UW control). Other than cheesing them out with TBR what is your game plan? I feel our removal does nothing vs their recurring threats and they develop such a large board so quickly. Not to mention they can also cast the death touch dredger to lock you out of attacking.
You have had quite the success so you must be doing something right.
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I know Languish appeared recently in a top8 list, but personally I can't get behind that card. The main matches where you want it are Humans and Spirits and both have very powerful protection (Thalia and Mausoleum Wanderer) that essentially this make cost 5.
I must admit I'm not sold on the card either, to be frank I wanted to try it out. I've been running 2 Radiant Flames before but having played a few matches with only a Radiant Flames in my hand against Supreme Phantom + Image on Phantom has made me a bit weary of that. I feel like I want 2 sweeper-ish effects (preferably stuff that doesn't have to kill my own guys) - but I'm not quite sure which ones it should be. EE feels like it might be too slow, but perhaps it is simply better? Any suggestions here would be greatly appreciated.
Also Assassin's Trophy is bad against Humans, Spirits, and also Storm so I would maybe suggest running a split with Decay or maybe Trophy in the sideboard. The main match where you want it is UWx and that's really it. It's useful against Tron but that match should be a slam dunk anyway.
I have also been contemplating moving the Trophy's to the sideboard. I do feel like having 3 cards in the deck that can deal with all sorts of weird permanents - and it is also such a huge deal breaker against tron (see Spooly's recent experiences against the deck) - especially paired with Surgical. I feel the tron match up is much closer than it seems on paper - if they ever get to stick something they should be in good shape. Last time I played against tron I either got smashed or smashed my opponent. If you have any tips/decklist that makes it a slam dunk I'm all ears
I think your land set-up is solid. Personally I'd prefer the 4th MM and 17 land but that's just me. Would you consider adding a Wooded Foothills? Maybe in place of a Marsh flats. Just something that can grab a basic Forest and also Breeding Pool.
I have been running with 4 Manamorphose and 17 lands for quite a while. For the most part I quite like it, only exceptions are when you want to kill a creature (with Tarfire / Bolt) and battlerage the same turn. Of course this is doable with Manamorphose, but I think getting all of these cards right when you need them is a long shot. Perhaps it is the double blue I should give up on instead - I've just often found the need to cast 2 counterspells within a single turn against the decks where I really want the counterspells. Any further thoughts here would be greatly appreciated? (This is one area where I really like the white sideboard - as playing anymore than 1 white land just seems weird to me).
I've previously tried running non black fetches - I might try a foothills again. I think I'll start by paying attention to when I'd want it over Marsh Flats and when it would be bad (bad in the sense that it cannot fetch basic swamp or Watery Grave). I'm not entirely convinced that it would be worth it - as I think being able to fetch those two are often more important than Breeding Pool and forest. But I really like the idea here and it is definitely worth exploring.
I know you mentioned Lightning bolt availability as a problem, but I seriously think you need a more reliable answer for X/3 threats such as Mantis Rider, Spell Queller, Supreme Phantom (maybe an additional Dismember?). Push is not always revolted and coupled with my aforementioned weakness to those archetypes, I would suggest preparing better for them.
I agree completely. Since posting I've come to realise that me playing Dismember is also out of the question. I might have to give in and maindeck some Decays it seems like. I just think in general 2 mana removal spells in this deck have to be really worth it.
Any anticipation of Affinity or Modular? I would at least one K-Command in the 75 would be helpful because it works against KCI and Lanternless. Abrade is also nice
I would expect quite a bit of Hardened Scales. I have played against it a few times (like 3 matches total I think) and there are some local guys playing it. So far I've had no issues against the deck (with the manamorphose build). The deck to me seems to be a mix of a combo deck with a great grind element mixed into it. The combo pieces we shred to pieces and the grind plan never becomes relevant. Usually the games have come down to them having 1 turn to topdeck a Ballista. With that said I'm also considering everything you just mentioned - including Ancient Grudge. Regular Affinity I'm sure some people will show up with but I think my plans here will simply be to race them (obviously bringing in all the removal in the world) and hope for the best.
I'm planning on playing something very close to the list without manamorphose tomorrow at FNM to give it a spin and see what it feels like. Thank you very much for replying to this.
Could you elaborate on how you play and side vs dredge in general?
I have always had a rough time with this matchup and I have regarded it as a terrible matchup in my experience (on par with UW control). Other than cheesing them out with TBR what is your game plan?
Basically that
I think it's mostly deckbuilding decisions, not gameplay decisions, that are making the difference. Ghor-Clan Rampager as a Traverse target has been invaluable in the matchup, and Tarfire ties the room together: makes Goyf and Shadow both massive, and gets that Traverse turned on so you can find Ghor-Clan or a giant threat. It even kills Stinkweed Imp in a pinch, if you have a turn where that's important. The fact that they have Creeping Chill now means that you're less likely to have trouble getting your life total low enough to make Shadow massive now, though you do have to close quickly before Chills or a Conflag finish you off. The matchup is all about closing as fast as possible, so play with that in mind. I'm also running 2 Grim Flayer, which helps ensure that I have a decent clock, and is another way to get Traverse online quickly. Plus trample is invaluable.
I'm also running 3-4 GY hate cards in the SB instead of the usual 2 (2 Spellbomb, 1-2 Surgical, and 0-1 Oooze, though Ooze has been pretty poor for me). So postboard I end up with a bit more interaction than normal. When you know you have a quick clock, casting surgical on their first (and only) dredger in the GY can often be great, though if you hand is a bit slower and more interactive you probably want to wait to hit something like Amalgam or Bloodghast. But you probably shouldn't keep many hands like that, unless you have a LOT of interaction. Priority 1 against dredge: establish a clock.
Also note that they may board Leyline of the Void in against you, so you should always have access to Assassin's Trophy postboard. Worst case it removes a blocker during a big attack (like Imp), but best case it turns on your deck.
I'm not playing blue, but having access to a few counterspells adds a few more percentage points. Mostly as Conflag protection, though sometimes you get to pick off a Looting or Reunion, which is also great.
My record is 6-1 (games) against Tron in completive REL. Two of those matches were a MM build and the most recent was without. I don't recall ever losing to Tron pick-up games either. But more importantly I've always played 3x Stubborn in my main deck. I also run 2x Dismember and never side it out against them. You can Dismember your own Shadow at their EOT to grow it. Also they run a lot of PW so it's very easy to get Tarmogoyf to 6/7 (or even 7/8 in Tarfire builds). I've always kept 1x Fulminator in the board, and my most recent competitive match against Tron I also had 3x Alpine Moon (which probably isn't necessary). It's crazy to me that you guys are even near 50/50 against them. Maybe I've just been lucky
Personally I consider Stubborn a core piece of this deck. Aggro is big right now but in an open meta I just really appreciate having a few counterspells in starting 60. It absolutely dominates prison decks, Storm, Living End, Hollow one, even affinity has some critical non-creature spells. It's only truly a dead card against Humans. I've stubbed Coco game 1 against Spirits. I've stubbed Chord game 1 against Abzan Company. I've stubbed turn 1 game 1 AEther Vial against Merfolk.
I'm interested in Spooly's brewing of a Blueless version utilizing Whispers because I think it could fill a similar (yet proactive) role. But as it stands I consider Stub and TBR part of the core of deck. The removal package, and probably a singleton tutorable creature, are my flex slots. I had a few times where Ghor-clan was critical but I don't think I'd prefer it over a 2nd TBR. The thing with GCR is that he gives your opponent the information (when you tutor it). And it's also not nearly enough raw damage. TBR is killing my opponents often from 15+ health. I could make argument for Snapcaster but in my experience I rarely want to Traverse for it. I played many completive REL matches with Snap and most of the times where I drew it naturally, he ended up doing something significant. But to Traverse for him is too many intensive.
@Spooly - when you refer to Dredge in these recent leagues, is that including Bridge Vine? What about Hollow One?
My record is 6-1 (games) against Tron in completive REL. Two of those matches were a MM build and the most recent was without. I don't recall ever losing to Tron pick-up games either. But more importantly I've always played 3x Stubborn in my main deck. I also run 2x Dismember and never side it out against them. You can Dismember your own Shadow at their EOT to grow it. Also they run a lot of PW so it's very easy to get Tarmogoyf to 6/7 (or even 7/8 in Tarfire builds). I've always kept 1x Fulminator in the board, and my most recent competitive match against Tron I also had 3x Alpine Moon (which probably isn't necessary). It's crazy to me that you guys are even near 50/50 against them. Maybe I've just been lucky.
You're not lucky, you have a ton of hate for tron (TBR, Counterspells, Fulminator, and sometimes even Alpine Moon? That's a lot.)
I'm interested in Spooly's brewing of a Blueless version utilizing Whispers because I think it could fill a similar (yet proactive) role. But as it stands I consider Stub and TBR part of the core of deck. The removal package, and probably a singleton tutorable creature, are my flex slots. I had a few times where Ghor-clan was critical but I don't think I'd prefer it over a 2nd TBR. The thing with GCR is that he gives your opponent the information (when you tutor it).
You probably saw up thread, but I'm off Whispers. Tarfire is too important to enabling Whispers, but you want to cut Tarfire against control. At least in the shell I'm currently experimenting with, it isn't worth it. Maybe if you find a way to not rely on Tarfire to enable it, but that probably involves Thought Scour and a different shell. I'm also leaning toward cutting the white for blue again, though maybe having 0 blue spells MD. It's just so much easier to move the needle against Tron, Burn, etc, than it is against midrange and control. Though if it were a legitimate option, and right now I would push hard for beating those decks instead.
Re: Ghor-Clan: it's fantastic against Dredge, Humans, and a few other matchups. But I wouldn't cut a TBR for it. why_not_both_girl.jpg. 2 + 1 is right where I want to be.
@Spooly - when you refer to Dredge in these recent leagues, is that including Bridge Vine? What about Hollow One?
Actual dredge. I haven't run into Hollow One or Bridgevine this past week. Though in my experience, any TBR build of Shadow is pretty heavily favored against Hollow One. Or at least any build packing 2 Dismember. I don't have the reps with Shadow shell against Bridgevine to really know, but I suspect it's not as good for Shadow. Though maybe still favored, idk.
My record is 6-1 (games) against Tron in completive REL. Two of those matches were a MM build and the most recent was without. I don't recall ever losing to Tron pick-up games either. But more importantly I've always played 3x Stubborn in my main deck. I also run 2x Dismember and never side it out against them. You can Dismember your own Shadow at their EOT to grow it. Also they run a lot of PW so it's very easy to get Tarmogoyf to 6/7 (or even 7/8 in Tarfire builds). I've always kept 1x Fulminator in the board, and my most recent competitive match against Tron I also had 3x Alpine Moon (which probably isn't necessary). It's crazy to me that you guys are even near 50/50 against them. Maybe I've just been lucky
I agree with Spooly, it sounds like your list has a lot of Tron hate. I think any decent hand from my list post board is pretty favored as well (however mulling can easily turn this around).
Personally I consider Stubborn a core piece of this deck. Aggro is big right now but in an open meta I just really appreciate having a few counterspells in starting 60. It absolutely dominates prison decks, Storm, Living End, Hollow one, even affinity has some critical non-creature spells. It's only truly a dead card against Humans. I've stubbed Coco game 1 against Spirits. I've stubbed Chord game 1 against Abzan Company. I've stubbed turn 1 game 1 AEther Vial against Merfolk.
I kinda agree here. I've actually considered moving my 2 Trophy's to the sideboard for 2 Stubborn Denials. I'm a bit weary of loading up my deck with too many situational cards (TBR, Stubborn Denial and Ghor-Clan) - but I find myself often enough wanting a small amount of counterspells in my deck.
Thanks again for the feedback, I'll try to report back once I have some more information. I know preparing for a Team Unified tournament is a bit of a different beast comapared to the general discussions going on here - and also given the decks I'm playing with on my team my situation is a bit unique. I still feel like it could be interesting to read and speculate about given that you really get a better feel for what the different cards in the deck is doing to the matchups in the wider meta. As I stated earlier - one of my stipulations is that GBx midrnage in general will be very underplayed at this tournament - I usually play this myself and besides the decks tending to take away all the great cards, they also usually suffer from poor matchups against Tron and Titanshift in these tournaments. I might be wrong about this, and if that is the case then I expect my deck choice to be quite horrible, we will see.
What is the typical sideboard these days? Which cards have y'all seen be effective against certain matchups. Spooly got me thinking whether or not I need to should be running Surgical Extraction or not. I probably should with as much discard as we have.
Here's what I have right now. What should I replace if I were to use Surgical?
What is the typical sideboard these days? Which cards have y'all seen be effective against certain matchups. Spooly got me thinking whether or not I need to should be running Surgical Extraction or not. I probably should with as much discard as we have.
Here's what I have right now. What should I replace if I were to use Surgical?
If I were to cut something for surgical, I would just do a clean cut for the spell bombs, 2 for 2. That being said, I think there's some merit to running a mixture of the two. If I were to go to a competitive event tomorrow I'd want 3 pieces of graveyard interaction, something like 2 Surgical 1 Spellbomb. I'm not crazy about leyline.
If I were to cut something for surgical, I would just do a clean cut for the spell bombs, 2 for 2. That being said, I think there's some merit to running a mixture of the two. If I were to go to a competitive event tomorrow I'd want 3 pieces of graveyard interaction, something like 2 Surgical 1 Spellbomb. I'm not crazy about leyline.
Anything from my sideboard you see missing that should be there? I tried to make it rather flexible but want to make sure I'm not leaving something out vs a bad matchup. Should there be any sweepers? Kozilek's Return or the like? I figured I'd bring in Maelstrom Pulse against tokens. There doesn't really seem to be a great grindy replacement for Lingering Souls other than Kolaghan's Command since I'm not running W. What else? I don't get a lot of time for playtesting so I don't have quite the experience many of probably have.
I don't think Maelstrom Pulse is worth it since Assassin's Trophy has been printed. Radiant Flames is the best generic sweeper, Anger is better if you want to hit dredge/hollow one/bridgevine harder, but setting up for it is more painful, Kozilek's Return is better if you want to kill pro-red/black stuff (Etched Champion, Auriok Champion), but don't mind not killing the bigger humans/spirits, and Languish is better if you want to kill pro-red/black stuff and the bigger humans/spirits, but don't mind having to pay a million mana. IMO K Return doesn't kill enough in the current meta and Languish is just too expensive, so I can't see playing either. I like Radiant Flames the best, but I could see Anger instead, or a mix if you play 2+ - a mix is especially nice against Humans. Grim Lavamancer is also an insane traverse target against many of the decks you want a sweeper against.
The best "grindy" card non-blue has access to is probably Hazoret. Yes, it just gets pathed against the control decks. But how likely were you to bring something back against them with K Command anyway? At least Hazoret is a major headache for any of the grindy decks not running path. Pia and Kiran Nalaar is, in theory, a great grindy card, but with so much incidental LD running around it's hard to assemble RR. Even if you play an extra red producing land.
Hi, new here. I noticed the deck that won SCG Open Dallas last week did not use graveyard hate. It faced a field of mostly Dredge and still won. Does this mean it needs graveyard hate or no?
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Edit:
Another option suggested to me by a fellow Traverse Shadow player is to run a single Tombstalker . I like Hazzy more though because he doesn't care about the graveyard.
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Maybe the solution is to cut blue so we can splash white for Souls + Ranger. Before Assassin's Trophy, it was hard to cut blue because you needed a bit more interaction for the combo and especially big mana decks. Trophy happens to be that interaction in several matchups. Not all, but Tron in particular, and it also does some light work against a lot of combo decks that have random permanents we can pick off. Against e.g. Storm or KCI we can supplement with more graveyard interaction than normal. The biggest hole in this plan is Valakut, but as long as that isn't heavily played, I think we're ok. The second biggest hole is Burn, which probably requires some extra SB attention.
Edit: took a Jund + white build (with no Manamorphoses) for a spin in a league, and it felt decent, going 3-2. Lingering Souls was great against Jund, and is probably still fine against UW despite Field of Ruin because we can always LotV them away. Ranger I'm more skeptical of, and want to cut. One of the matches I lost to Amulet, which, add to Valakut and Burn for the list of decks where losing countermagic really hurts us.
What about Bedlam Reveler as a singleton Haymaker?
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Burn is fixable without countermagic though. Phyrexian Unlife, and more Collective Brutality, for example. Valakut, on the other hand, has no real substitutes.
I don't think Snare is going to have a large impact in BGx matchups. It trades 1-for-1 with cards you already have no problem dealing with (2 mana creatures), and Assassin's Trophy. It's fine, but not a major incentive to be blue.
I think Souls is fine against control too. It forces them to wrath. But yeah, that's definitely a matchup where I'd rather have blue and try to protect the queen. Even then, we're probably still significant dog in the matchup. Especially if they're red. I'm not sure how to significantly move the needle in these matchups, and short of that, I'd rather ignore them.
Bedlam Reveler is interesting for sure, but double red is pretty rough, and the susceptibility to graveyard hate is pretty rough, and it's effectively just as slow as Ranger. Most of our manabases only have 2 red lands, so a single mana denial spell is just as disruptive against both Ranger and Reveler. I like Ranger better since it's less susceptible to GY hate, but if you build around Reveler a little more (with more red lands and maybe stuff like Thought Scour) I could flip my opinion. But is it worth it?
The grindy-ish card that actually feels decent against control is Whispers of Emrakul (assuming it's turned on consistently enough). Creatures are too easy for them to interact with, and planeswalkers tend to be a bit too expensive. But discard spell into t2 do some things into t3 hymn into t4 threat might just get them. But turning it on is pretty annoying. Something I might experiment with, anyway, but I'm not super optimistic.
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Street Wraith
3 Architects of Will
Spells
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Mausoleum Secrets
2 Whispers of Emrakul
1 Countersquall
3 Fatal Push
2 Dismember
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Temur Battle Rage
11 Fetch Lands
1 Red source
1 Blue source
5 Other lands
1 Whispers of Emrakul
1 Godless Shrine
3 Lingering Souls
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Orzhov Charm
2 Collective Brutality
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Temur Battle Rage
2 Stubborn denial
1 Fulminator mage
Red & blue come out against UW and BGx, bringing in white for utility.
Blue comes out against Aggro and creature-based combo, bringing in red for TBR.
White stays out against Burn, Tron, KCI in favor of additional blue utility.
This way a 5-color list can keep to 3 colors most games, unless the opponent won't be attacking our Mana (like Tron or Burn)
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If it's good, I can see it as a 2-3 of, basically what you have.
To give you an idea of what you need to do to support it, here's the Grixis shell I tried (within a 1-2 cards anyway):
4 Death's Shadow
4 delve threats
2 Snapcaster
4 Street Wraith
4 Thought Scour
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Whispers of Emrakul
3 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Liliana of the Veil
That shell could have Whispers turned on fairly consistently by turn 3, but sometimes would have a LOOOT of trouble if it drew the wrong mix of cards. Plus there were all these sequencing issues with delve creatures and Snapcaster. Luckily Tarmogoyf + Traverse solves that problem, but it's still rough to get delirium that fast consistently enough. Notice, I had to sacrifice the IoKs to get it done! Mixing in some Tarfire would help. This was also before Search for Azcanta was printed, which might be an ok 1-2 of in this shell.
I'm really more interested in Whispers in a nonblue shell because, if we can turn it on fast enough, it solves a couple of problems: 1) something grindy that's good against control, 2) something decent against the spell based combo decks and big mana decks to make up for losing countermagic. Then we just let Lingering Souls carry us in the BGx matchups.
Maybe a Jund + White shell that can turn it on just goes HARD on tarfire. I'm not sure if it'll be good enough, but here's a sketch:
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Grim Flayer
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Whispers of Emrakul
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Dismember
3 Tarfire
1 Temur Battle Rage
I'd like to squeeze an Architects of Will in there, but there's hardly any room. I'd also like a second TBR, but again. Anyway, that's just a sketch. In reality, it's probably a 2 Whispers deck (MD anyway), but to test it going up to 3 is right.
Edit: add 2nd Grim Flayer as another card I want but there's no room for.
Thought Scour for Traverse shadow seems weird to me. With Grixis you already have the weird issues with milling your shocks - but that issue is much much worse in Traverse shadow. We need to be 3 color only for that to work IMO.
I'm expecting to play Jund + Blue for GP Liverpool (Unified Modern). My expectations are that not a lot of midrange decks will show up - which is why I won't be running the White cards. Main deck on my team where there will be some issues wrt. card availability is Burn, in short this means the following cards are out for me:
Lightning Bolt
Stomping Ground
Grim Lavamancer
I think I can manage to get this to work anyways. I'll have to accept that against UW, if I'm having a heavy advantage by turn 4 that I've probably lost. I have a couple of lists that I'm toying around with at the moment. First off I'm really unsure of whether I should go with Manamorphose and just be aggro maindeck - with the grindier cards in the sideboard, or if I should drop the Manamorphoses for some planeswalkers and possibly Kolaghan's Command maindeck. With an expected meta of Creature decks (Spirits, Humans, etc.), Combo (KCI, Storm, maybe Ad Nauseum) and Control (UW/Jeskai) + the last remaining random decks - where would you guy draw the line here?
I think I am settled on 18 lands, due to wanting 2x red and 2x blue sources, so I'd probably only play 3 Manamorphose if it comes to it. I'm also not sure if Assassin's Trophy should be some split between main and side or purely in the sideboard. There's lots of stuff to think about here. For reference here are the two different builds I'm considering (some cards in the board are missing as I'm unsure of what to fill them with, feedback welcome):
Manamorphose
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
2 Blood Crypt
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Swamp
Creatures (13)
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
3 Fatal Push
3 Tarfire
1 Temur Battle Rage
2 Assassin's Trophy
1 Dismember
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Manamorphose
4 Stubborn Denial
2 Collective Brutality
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Languish
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Temur Battle Rage
Without Manamorphose
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
2 Blood Crypt
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
2 Marsh Flats
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Swamp
Creatures (13)
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
3 Fatal Push
3 Tarfire
1 Temur Battle Rage
2 Assassin's Trophy
1 Dismember
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Stubborn Denial
2 Collective Brutality
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Languish
1 Dismember
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Temur Battle Rage
Also Assassin's Trophy is bad against Humans, Spirits, and also Storm so I would maybe suggest running a split with Decay or maybe Trophy in the sideboard. The main match where you want it is UWx and that's really it. It's useful against Tron but that match should be a slam dunk anyway.
I think your land set-up is solid. Personally I'd prefer the 4th MM and 17 land but that's just me. Would you consider adding a Wooded Foothills? Maybe in place of a Marsh flats. Just something that can grab a basic Forest and also Breeding Pool.
I know you mentioned Lightning bolt availability as a problem, but I seriously think you need a more reliable answer for X/3 threats such as Mantis Rider, Spell Queller, Supreme Phantom (maybe an additional Dismember?). Push is not always revolted and coupled with my aforementioned weakness to those archetypes, I would suggest preparing better for them.
Any anticipation of Affinity or Modular? I would at least one K-Command in the 75 would be helpful because it works against KCI and Lanternless. Abrade is also nice
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That said, i'm winning a lot of matches. 3-2, 3-2, 4-1 across 3 leagues. Absolutely destroying dredge (5-0 in matches, 10-1 in games), and doing ok against humans (2-0 in matches, though they were close). The tron matchup feels like we're a hair away from turning it, but I'm 0-3 (including an egregious punt on my part). That last league I added a Fulminator to my SB as a traverse target, but still got donked on by tron, because of running Thragtusks keeping him out of shadow + TBR range by exactly 1 point 3 turns in a row. Lingering Souls has been nice against Jund, hasn't done much against Mardu (when I do bring it in), and my only control match my opponent kept awful hands and died, so idk there. At this point I'm thinking about cutting them and trying 2x Hazoret instead so I can have (SB only!) countermagic for tron, burn, and the anyone else it's relevant against. Hazzy isn't as good against the grindy decks, but it's so hard to get percentage points there that I'm inclined to basically concede that it'll always be bad and never all that close.
Hi spooly,
Could you elaborate on how you play and side vs dredge in general?
I have always had a rough time with this matchup and I have regarded it as a terrible matchup in my experience (on par with UW control). Other than cheesing them out with TBR what is your game plan? I feel our removal does nothing vs their recurring threats and they develop such a large board so quickly. Not to mention they can also cast the death touch dredger to lock you out of attacking.
You have had quite the success so you must be doing something right.
I must admit I'm not sold on the card either, to be frank I wanted to try it out. I've been running 2 Radiant Flames before but having played a few matches with only a Radiant Flames in my hand against Supreme Phantom + Image on Phantom has made me a bit weary of that. I feel like I want 2 sweeper-ish effects (preferably stuff that doesn't have to kill my own guys) - but I'm not quite sure which ones it should be. EE feels like it might be too slow, but perhaps it is simply better? Any suggestions here would be greatly appreciated.
I have also been contemplating moving the Trophy's to the sideboard. I do feel like having 3 cards in the deck that can deal with all sorts of weird permanents - and it is also such a huge deal breaker against tron (see Spooly's recent experiences against the deck) - especially paired with Surgical. I feel the tron match up is much closer than it seems on paper - if they ever get to stick something they should be in good shape. Last time I played against tron I either got smashed or smashed my opponent. If you have any tips/decklist that makes it a slam dunk I'm all ears
I have been running with 4 Manamorphose and 17 lands for quite a while. For the most part I quite like it, only exceptions are when you want to kill a creature (with Tarfire / Bolt) and battlerage the same turn. Of course this is doable with Manamorphose, but I think getting all of these cards right when you need them is a long shot. Perhaps it is the double blue I should give up on instead - I've just often found the need to cast 2 counterspells within a single turn against the decks where I really want the counterspells. Any further thoughts here would be greatly appreciated? (This is one area where I really like the white sideboard - as playing anymore than 1 white land just seems weird to me).
I've previously tried running non black fetches - I might try a foothills again. I think I'll start by paying attention to when I'd want it over Marsh Flats and when it would be bad (bad in the sense that it cannot fetch basic swamp or Watery Grave). I'm not entirely convinced that it would be worth it - as I think being able to fetch those two are often more important than Breeding Pool and forest. But I really like the idea here and it is definitely worth exploring.
I agree completely. Since posting I've come to realise that me playing Dismember is also out of the question. I might have to give in and maindeck some Decays it seems like. I just think in general 2 mana removal spells in this deck have to be really worth it.
I would expect quite a bit of Hardened Scales. I have played against it a few times (like 3 matches total I think) and there are some local guys playing it. So far I've had no issues against the deck (with the manamorphose build). The deck to me seems to be a mix of a combo deck with a great grind element mixed into it. The combo pieces we shred to pieces and the grind plan never becomes relevant. Usually the games have come down to them having 1 turn to topdeck a Ballista. With that said I'm also considering everything you just mentioned - including Ancient Grudge. Regular Affinity I'm sure some people will show up with but I think my plans here will simply be to race them (obviously bringing in all the removal in the world) and hope for the best.
I'm planning on playing something very close to the list without manamorphose tomorrow at FNM to give it a spin and see what it feels like. Thank you very much for replying to this.
Basically that
I think it's mostly deckbuilding decisions, not gameplay decisions, that are making the difference. Ghor-Clan Rampager as a Traverse target has been invaluable in the matchup, and Tarfire ties the room together: makes Goyf and Shadow both massive, and gets that Traverse turned on so you can find Ghor-Clan or a giant threat. It even kills Stinkweed Imp in a pinch, if you have a turn where that's important. The fact that they have Creeping Chill now means that you're less likely to have trouble getting your life total low enough to make Shadow massive now, though you do have to close quickly before Chills or a Conflag finish you off. The matchup is all about closing as fast as possible, so play with that in mind. I'm also running 2 Grim Flayer, which helps ensure that I have a decent clock, and is another way to get Traverse online quickly. Plus trample is invaluable.
I'm also running 3-4 GY hate cards in the SB instead of the usual 2 (2 Spellbomb, 1-2 Surgical, and 0-1 Oooze, though Ooze has been pretty poor for me). So postboard I end up with a bit more interaction than normal. When you know you have a quick clock, casting surgical on their first (and only) dredger in the GY can often be great, though if you hand is a bit slower and more interactive you probably want to wait to hit something like Amalgam or Bloodghast. But you probably shouldn't keep many hands like that, unless you have a LOT of interaction. Priority 1 against dredge: establish a clock.
Also note that they may board Leyline of the Void in against you, so you should always have access to Assassin's Trophy postboard. Worst case it removes a blocker during a big attack (like Imp), but best case it turns on your deck.
I'm not playing blue, but having access to a few counterspells adds a few more percentage points. Mostly as Conflag protection, though sometimes you get to pick off a Looting or Reunion, which is also great.
Personally I consider Stubborn a core piece of this deck. Aggro is big right now but in an open meta I just really appreciate having a few counterspells in starting 60. It absolutely dominates prison decks, Storm, Living End, Hollow one, even affinity has some critical non-creature spells. It's only truly a dead card against Humans. I've stubbed Coco game 1 against Spirits. I've stubbed Chord game 1 against Abzan Company. I've stubbed turn 1 game 1 AEther Vial against Merfolk.
I'm interested in Spooly's brewing of a Blueless version utilizing Whispers because I think it could fill a similar (yet proactive) role. But as it stands I consider Stub and TBR part of the core of deck. The removal package, and probably a singleton tutorable creature, are my flex slots. I had a few times where Ghor-clan was critical but I don't think I'd prefer it over a 2nd TBR. The thing with GCR is that he gives your opponent the information (when you tutor it). And it's also not nearly enough raw damage. TBR is killing my opponents often from 15+ health. I could make argument for Snapcaster but in my experience I rarely want to Traverse for it. I played many completive REL matches with Snap and most of the times where I drew it naturally, he ended up doing something significant. But to Traverse for him is too many intensive.
@Spooly - when you refer to Dredge in these recent leagues, is that including Bridge Vine? What about Hollow One?
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You're not lucky, you have a ton of hate for tron (TBR, Counterspells, Fulminator, and sometimes even Alpine Moon? That's a lot.)
You probably saw up thread, but I'm off Whispers. Tarfire is too important to enabling Whispers, but you want to cut Tarfire against control. At least in the shell I'm currently experimenting with, it isn't worth it. Maybe if you find a way to not rely on Tarfire to enable it, but that probably involves Thought Scour and a different shell. I'm also leaning toward cutting the white for blue again, though maybe having 0 blue spells MD. It's just so much easier to move the needle against Tron, Burn, etc, than it is against midrange and control. Though if it were a legitimate option, and right now I would push hard for beating those decks instead.
Re: Ghor-Clan: it's fantastic against Dredge, Humans, and a few other matchups. But I wouldn't cut a TBR for it. why_not_both_girl.jpg. 2 + 1 is right where I want to be.
Actual dredge. I haven't run into Hollow One or Bridgevine this past week. Though in my experience, any TBR build of Shadow is pretty heavily favored against Hollow One. Or at least any build packing 2 Dismember. I don't have the reps with Shadow shell against Bridgevine to really know, but I suspect it's not as good for Shadow. Though maybe still favored, idk.
I agree with Spooly, it sounds like your list has a lot of Tron hate. I think any decent hand from my list post board is pretty favored as well (however mulling can easily turn this around).
I kinda agree here. I've actually considered moving my 2 Trophy's to the sideboard for 2 Stubborn Denials. I'm a bit weary of loading up my deck with too many situational cards (TBR, Stubborn Denial and Ghor-Clan) - but I find myself often enough wanting a small amount of counterspells in my deck.
Thanks again for the feedback, I'll try to report back once I have some more information. I know preparing for a Team Unified tournament is a bit of a different beast comapared to the general discussions going on here - and also given the decks I'm playing with on my team my situation is a bit unique. I still feel like it could be interesting to read and speculate about given that you really get a better feel for what the different cards in the deck is doing to the matchups in the wider meta. As I stated earlier - one of my stipulations is that GBx midrnage in general will be very underplayed at this tournament - I usually play this myself and besides the decks tending to take away all the great cards, they also usually suffer from poor matchups against Tron and Titanshift in these tournaments. I might be wrong about this, and if that is the case then I expect my deck choice to be quite horrible, we will see.
Here's what I have right now. What should I replace if I were to use Surgical?
2 Damping Sphere
2 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Stubborn Denial
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
If I were to cut something for surgical, I would just do a clean cut for the spell bombs, 2 for 2. That being said, I think there's some merit to running a mixture of the two. If I were to go to a competitive event tomorrow I'd want 3 pieces of graveyard interaction, something like 2 Surgical 1 Spellbomb. I'm not crazy about leyline.
The best "grindy" card non-blue has access to is probably Hazoret. Yes, it just gets pathed against the control decks. But how likely were you to bring something back against them with K Command anyway? At least Hazoret is a major headache for any of the grindy decks not running path. Pia and Kiran Nalaar is, in theory, a great grindy card, but with so much incidental LD running around it's hard to assemble RR. Even if you play an extra red producing land.
My current 75 on mtgo is this:
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Polluted Delta
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Watery Grave
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Street Wraith
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Tarfire
2 Fatal Push
2 Dismember
1 Assassin' Trophy
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 Temur Battle Rage
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Death's Shadow
2 Grim Flayer
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Delay
2 Collective Brutality
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Radiant Flames
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Assassin's Trophy
1 Fulminator Mage
The Bloodbraid is an experiment, and if I weren't cheap it would be a Liliana, the Last Hope.