If you are worried about having dead topdecks, I think Liliana of the Veil is exactly what you want, so cutting her seems to go against what you are worried about. She allows you to trade dead cards for their real cards.
Bauble actually has a bit of synergy with her allowing you to play bauble, plus with no cards in hand, and then get your card on their upkeep anyway.
The other option is that if you think you will see more eldrazi and affinity, maybe it's worth it to swap your splash colors and play the souls in the main.
Oh and with the rise of humans and such, I think having a second sweeper in the side is a good idea. Probably want radiant flames though.
I've been playing a pretty identical list to Spooly list. Today I made one tweak based off of some things I was seeing on MTGO, I cut the 2nd terminate and replaced it with a 3rd copy of Stubborn denial. It's been working fantastically, I'm just getting into a position where I'm forcing bad blocks instead of removing the creature
I don't like the idea of removing souls and ranger for Hazoret, that scares me.
Went 3-1 tonight, beating some brew deck, Merfolk and Storm. Lost against Abzan 0-2. I mean, this matchup is just atrocious, right? Followed Spoon's sideboard guide but it just felt so uphill. I think Abzans bad in this meta but hey, you're going to see everything
How do you guys feel about Merfolk? My opponent misplayed with her lands so she didn't leave up an island for a dispel for when I temur battle raged for 12/12 double striking trampling. Is it common for them to bring in dispels and negates? I managed to strip away spreading seas except for game 3 where I was left with no forest.
I absolutely crushed Storm. Deck is stupid though, he made 11 goblins on his turn 3 when I was on the draw. I had a staticaster in my opener so it backfired on him but it's so degenerate. That deck is going to eat a well deserved ban once the pro's break it in half for the pro tour.
I'm trying to think if cutting the terminate for a third stubborn denial is a good plan or absolutely terrible; I'm trying to put people in an awkward board position before I get to the point of needing the terminate.
Also, what was up with Spickemire and Andersen cutting the 2x collective brutalities for a Rampager and something else? Do we truly need that card? Am I making a mistake playing 2x Decays instead of going for a 4x push/1 Decay split?
Went 3-1 tonight, beating some brew deck, Merfolk and Storm. Lost against Abzan 0-2. I mean, this matchup is just atrocious, right? Followed Spoon's sideboard guide but it just felt so uphill. I think Abzans bad in this meta but hey, you're going to see everything
*Spooly
I like to call it alternate reality Abzan since it's only a reasonable choice in an alternate reality where Tron and Valakut aren't dunking on them. The lower to the ground builds are more reasonable (with Flayers), but are also easier to beat.
How do you guys feel about Merfolk? My opponent misplayed with her lands so she didn't leave up an island for a dispel for when I temur battle raged for 12/12 double striking trampling. Is it common for them to bring in dispels and negates? I managed to strip away spreading seas except for game 3 where I was left with no forest.
Reasonably good. We're basically Jund, though we have to be more careful with our life total and Spreading Seas is better against us. But also we can TBR them out of no where. I don't know if the countermagic is common, but it's not great. It should probably be reserved for combo matchups. I've been trying Anger of the Gods in the sweeper slot lately out of respect for Dredge, and this is one matchup where it's less good.
I'm trying to think if cutting the terminate for a third stubborn denial is a good plan or absolutely terrible; I'm trying to put people in an awkward board position before I get to the point of needing the terminate.
I don't think going under 2 Terminates is a good idea. There are too many things that you need to kill that Push & Decay don't touch. If you want a 3rd MD Stub, you can cut a LotV maybe.
Also, what was up with Spickemire and Andersen cutting the 2x collective brutalities for a Rampager and something else? Do we truly need that card? Am I making a mistake playing 2x Decays instead of going for a 4x push/1 Decay split?
I've been trying 0 Brutalities lately to load up on countermagic in the SB. Brutality isn't a must have, but it's great against Burn and CoCo/Chord decks. The reason Spicklemire has Rampager is that he doesn't have TBR. So he wants access to a trample effect he can Traverse for in the matchups where it's really important.
I think I agree with you, I think going below 2 terminates is a mistake. I did well last night but I think that's a loose plan. I definitely don't think I'll do that again.
How do you feel about going to 2x LOTV? I'm not sure I'm too high on that, even if that means i get to play 3x stubs.
I think I agree with you on temur battle rage, card just steals games. It won me a game 3 against merfolk i had no business winning and it sped the clock up against storm game 1.
I do have a lot of burn and coco decks at my store. I think in an open field id possibly cut the 1x collective.
I'm also trying to think if grixis shadow is just a better deck. I'm testing out both decks a lot.
The only time I think I would be rather play Grixis over this 4/5c is if the meta is super hostile to shadow in general, but I don't think we will see that happen again. Tarmogoyf is better than the delve creatures in an open field, traverse is an insane card, abrupt decay is a catchall, and Temur Battlerage is way better in our deck than in theirs. They don't actually grind better than we do now that we have gone 4/5c, so the only thing they have going for them is their resilience to push and a manabase that functions better under blood moon, and graveyard hate is slightly better against us.
But I don't think those disadvantages matter anywhere near as much as the advantages you get out of traverse and goyf.
I really like LotV so I don't want to cut one for anything to be honest, but I think that's the spot where most people where start shaving to add Stub if I told them the TBRs were untouchable. Probably more people would try to cut the TBRs, but I think that's a much bigger mistake.
I think I'll probably just concede that you're right.
How are you feeling about a lot of shadow decks in general replacing the 1x copy of terminate with dismember?
If the 3x LOTV, 2x Stubs and 2x Temur are untouchable it doesn't look like there's any wiggle room for the deck except debating on if you want to play 4/push 1/Decay.
I certainly won't be upset if people find out 2x Hazorets can replace the lingering souls plan and free up 3x spots in the sideboard but I don't see that happening. I won't complain if it does though
I think you would want to go with a Hazoret and a Pia. Pia is pretty close to souls, especially when you can start recurring her with a last hope or k-command
I was trying out 1 Haz MD, 1 SB, and 2 P&K SB the other day. Unfortunately P&K just doesn't do the Lingering Souls impression that I was hoping for. 4 mana is a lot to ask when you want to cast it before they can get their LotV online or going too strong, or before they can cut you off of the mana needed to cast it (and it's easier to get cut off RR than W since you typically will have to expose at least 1 red source before the turn you want to cast P&K), and P&K is very susceptible to Thoughtseize in a way that Souls is not.
I am liking the Haz in place of the Ranger in the SB slot though. Partially because you get cut off of white a lot easier than red, but also because it's less clunky, has haste, and randomly keeps winning me games against Lantern.
Oh, I completely agree. Monday I won a game 3 I had no business winning, I beat a merfolk player who had 3 of 4 creatures on board with island walk and won with 1 life thanks to making a 12/12 shadow double-striker.
I want to see where 5 color shadow leads to with the grinders is what I'm saying.
Ugh. Frustrating night. Game 1 I played mono white taxes. Games 1 and 2, three times between both games he topdecked a path immediately after I discarded him and exposed my lone threat. I was very frustrated, since I thought he kept really poor opening hands. He kept a bad hand game 1 based off of Crusader.
Game 2 I lost against some guy newish to modern, he played spreading seas on my white land while I had lingering souls and Ranger in my hand. I was definitely tilted internally, it's not a card played at all in delver, I wouldn't have exposed it so soon otherwise.
I just dropped after that, felt pretty salty losing to DnT based almost entirely from variance. The spreading seas felt like a scrubby thing that supremely rewarded him, but I'm quite bitter about it.
Went 4-0 last night with a pretty stock list. (Only differences: I run 0 disdainful stroke in the side, in exchange for graveyard hate as theres a couple of dredge players I despise. And my removal suite is 4 push, 1 terminate, 1 abrupt decay, 1 dismember. Sometimes I want to side out red and dismember allows me to keep an extra removal instead of terminate.)
R1 Infect. 2-0
Not much to say, generally an easy matchup. Between pushes and stubborn denials he wasnt able to have a creature stick or pump it up. Game 2 went in a similar fashion.
R2 Burn 2-1
Very fun matchup. G1 he was on the play and knew my deck so he kept most of his burn in hand. Game progresses to where he has a suspended riftbolt and no cards in hand. Im at 5 life with lethal on board next turn and removal in hand for any creature he topdecks. He shoots me with the riftbolt and topdecks another riftbolt which he hardcasts. G2 goes in a similar way where hes conservative keeping most of his burn in hand, but this time I land a turn 3 liliana which prompts him to spend resources dealing with her. My opponent however is mana screwed and cant cast all of his burn spells in time. I win this game off the back of temur battlerage and stubborn denials messing up his burn calculations. G3 My opponent gets stuck on 1 land for most of the game so even though he opens with a pair of guides and several 1 mana spells, I am able to rip his hand with discard spells and I leave him with a single deflecting palm to which I have a stubborn denial.
R3 Jeskai Tempo 2-1
This is a very good player and knows his deck inside out. G1 I have a crazy opener: double discard, 2 shadows, goyf, wraith and fetchland. I strip his hand turn 1 and 2 and land a turn 2 Shadow, followed by a turn 3 shadow goyf. The disruption plus fast clock is too much and I swing for lethal on turn 4. G2 I side out removal, my red cards (Terminate, temur battlerage, abrupt decay, 3 pushes) and bring in Lingering souls, ranger of eos and liliana of the last hope. I present an aggressive clock similar to game 1 in which I land a turn 2 shadow which he bolts, I stubborn denial but he has a dispell. I still have another shadow and a goyf in hand which I play on turn 3 and he double paths. I play a lingering souls which gets countered and then electrolyze on the flashback. I topdeck a liliana of the last hope which gets back the bolted shadow but he has snapcaster into path and enough answers for everything I throw at him. G3 I outgrind with a traverse for ranger of eos which is too much to handle. However he is capable of stalling me for several turns using cryptic commands to tap and draw while Im sitting on a board of goyf, double shadow and ranger of eos. Eventually he doesn't find answers and concedes.
R4 BW Tokens 2-0
We are both the only players going 3-0 so we ID but decide to play it out.
G1 I land a turn 2 shadow and allow him to swing at me with his flying tokens knowing my only way to win the game is with a giant shadow and temur battlerage. He gets me down to 6 where I can crack a land going to 3 and making shadow a 10/10 double strike trample and win.
G2 plays out in a similar way. He discards me turn 1 and takes a sweeper to which i then discard his other discard spell so he wont take my second sweeper. I land an early threat and sweep the board, then proceed to force him to chump block with tokens but I have the temur battle rage for the win once again. Id say I got lucky as BW tokens feels like an uphill battle for us, and he didnt draw his fatal pushes. Temur battlerage got me both wins in this matchup.
Take aways: Bluffing a stubborn denial is a really strong play. Unlike grixis DS which plays blue anyways, its not uncommon for them to leave up blue mana just because they couldnt spend it. However if 5c deathshadow fetches for blue and leaves it up, its an obvious sign of a stubborn denial in hand. Using this I was able to bluff stubborn denial during my games and force opponents to make awkward reads trying to play around a card that wasn't in my hand.
Temur battle rage is a good card and Im happy running 2 in the main deck.
The main deck is fairly stock, dropping an Overgrown Tomb for a Breeding Pool, giving me at least 2 sources for each color of mana and making random Ghost Quarters a lot less of a problem. The sideboard is also fairly stock, replacing the Godless Shrine and 3 Lingering Souls with 2 Bitterblossom, Kolaghan's Command, and Collective Brutality. I've been happy with the Bitterblossoms and K-Command, but Brutality is still a toss up for me. The burn matchup tends to be very close, but it's also possible that slot should just be an Engineered Explosives or a Grafdigger's Cage. I was originally on a 1/1 split of Disdainful Stroke and Ceremonious Rejection, but after a couple leagues I felt that Stroke was just generally more useful.
Naturally, I haven't actually been matched against too many grindy matchups, because you just never play against the matchups you want to test against in Modern. I have definitely noticed the difference in the consistency of the mana base. I like having a K-Command in the 75 with Lantern picking up steam (and it felt necessary after losing Lingering Souls in the Affinity matchup).
Anyway, none of this is to say "Guys, I've cracked the code", but I know that this is a discussion that's come up and wanted to toss out my ideas for facilitating it.
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I don't know, i haven't played much since my last article.
Bauble actually has a bit of synergy with her allowing you to play bauble, plus with no cards in hand, and then get your card on their upkeep anyway.
The other option is that if you think you will see more eldrazi and affinity, maybe it's worth it to swap your splash colors and play the souls in the main.
Oh and with the rise of humans and such, I think having a second sweeper in the side is a good idea. Probably want radiant flames though.
I don't like the idea of removing souls and ranger for Hazoret, that scares me.
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Bloodstained Mire
4x Polluted Delta
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Blood Crypt
1x Watery Grave
1x Breeding Pool
1x Swamp
Creature(12)
4x Death's Shadow
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Street Wraith
4x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Fatal Push
3x Stubborn Denial
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Terminate
2x Temur Battle Rage
4x Mishra's Bauble
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Collective Brutality
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Stubborn Denial
2x Disdainful Stroke
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Radiant Flames
2x Ancient Grudge
3x Lingering Souls
1x Ranger of Eos
1x Godless Shrine
Went 3-1 tonight, beating some brew deck, Merfolk and Storm. Lost against Abzan 0-2. I mean, this matchup is just atrocious, right? Followed Spoon's sideboard guide but it just felt so uphill. I think Abzans bad in this meta but hey, you're going to see everything
How do you guys feel about Merfolk? My opponent misplayed with her lands so she didn't leave up an island for a dispel for when I temur battle raged for 12/12 double striking trampling. Is it common for them to bring in dispels and negates? I managed to strip away spreading seas except for game 3 where I was left with no forest.
I absolutely crushed Storm. Deck is stupid though, he made 11 goblins on his turn 3 when I was on the draw. I had a staticaster in my opener so it backfired on him but it's so degenerate. That deck is going to eat a well deserved ban once the pro's break it in half for the pro tour.
I'm trying to think if cutting the terminate for a third stubborn denial is a good plan or absolutely terrible; I'm trying to put people in an awkward board position before I get to the point of needing the terminate.
Also, what was up with Spickemire and Andersen cutting the 2x collective brutalities for a Rampager and something else? Do we truly need that card? Am I making a mistake playing 2x Decays instead of going for a 4x push/1 Decay split?
*Spooly
I like to call it alternate reality Abzan since it's only a reasonable choice in an alternate reality where Tron and Valakut aren't dunking on them. The lower to the ground builds are more reasonable (with Flayers), but are also easier to beat.
Reasonably good. We're basically Jund, though we have to be more careful with our life total and Spreading Seas is better against us. But also we can TBR them out of no where. I don't know if the countermagic is common, but it's not great. It should probably be reserved for combo matchups. I've been trying Anger of the Gods in the sweeper slot lately out of respect for Dredge, and this is one matchup where it's less good.
I don't think going under 2 Terminates is a good idea. There are too many things that you need to kill that Push & Decay don't touch. If you want a 3rd MD Stub, you can cut a LotV maybe.
I've been trying 0 Brutalities lately to load up on countermagic in the SB. Brutality isn't a must have, but it's great against Burn and CoCo/Chord decks. The reason Spicklemire has Rampager is that he doesn't have TBR. So he wants access to a trample effect he can Traverse for in the matchups where it's really important.
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I think I agree with you, I think going below 2 terminates is a mistake. I did well last night but I think that's a loose plan. I definitely don't think I'll do that again.
How do you feel about going to 2x LOTV? I'm not sure I'm too high on that, even if that means i get to play 3x stubs.
I think I agree with you on temur battle rage, card just steals games. It won me a game 3 against merfolk i had no business winning and it sped the clock up against storm game 1.
I do have a lot of burn and coco decks at my store. I think in an open field id possibly cut the 1x collective.
I'm also trying to think if grixis shadow is just a better deck. I'm testing out both decks a lot.
But I don't think those disadvantages matter anywhere near as much as the advantages you get out of traverse and goyf.
How are you feeling about a lot of shadow decks in general replacing the 1x copy of terminate with dismember?
If the 3x LOTV, 2x Stubs and 2x Temur are untouchable it doesn't look like there's any wiggle room for the deck except debating on if you want to play 4/push 1/Decay.
I certainly won't be upset if people find out 2x Hazorets can replace the lingering souls plan and free up 3x spots in the sideboard but I don't see that happening. I won't complain if it does though
I am liking the Haz in place of the Ranger in the SB slot though. Partially because you get cut off of white a lot easier than red, but also because it's less clunky, has haste, and randomly keeps winning me games against Lantern.
That would let you more safely play the anger of the gods in the sideboard as well.
But if you're really not feeling PnK I guess we have to back to souls? Is there any other option?
I have been liking the Hazoret as a 1of in the main though. Still not sure on the sideboard configuration.
Some kind of enchantment deck that runs multiple RIPs, Blood Moons and Mana dorks to make LOTV and souls bad.
And then helplessly losing to that mardu deck that I've only seen in paper once.
It actually looks like Spoolys list really caught a lot of attention, for a bit we were seeing similar 5-0's on mttgoldfish.
How come Andersen and Spicklemire's build didn't catch on? They ran the 4x push, 1x decay, 2x terminate, 1x dismember, 3x stubborn denial package
Why did everyone decide not to play those lists despite those two having such good shows in standings and on stream?
I'm not disputing temur battle rage and it's power
I'm pretty sure you answered your own question right there. TBR is completely insane.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I want to see where 5 color shadow leads to with the grinders is what I'm saying.
Game 2 I lost against some guy newish to modern, he played spreading seas on my white land while I had lingering souls and Ranger in my hand. I was definitely tilted internally, it's not a card played at all in delver, I wouldn't have exposed it so soon otherwise.
I just dropped after that, felt pretty salty losing to DnT based almost entirely from variance. The spreading seas felt like a scrubby thing that supremely rewarded him, but I'm quite bitter about it.
R1 Infect. 2-0
Not much to say, generally an easy matchup. Between pushes and stubborn denials he wasnt able to have a creature stick or pump it up. Game 2 went in a similar fashion.
R2 Burn 2-1
Very fun matchup. G1 he was on the play and knew my deck so he kept most of his burn in hand. Game progresses to where he has a suspended riftbolt and no cards in hand. Im at 5 life with lethal on board next turn and removal in hand for any creature he topdecks. He shoots me with the riftbolt and topdecks another riftbolt which he hardcasts.
G2 goes in a similar way where hes conservative keeping most of his burn in hand, but this time I land a turn 3 liliana which prompts him to spend resources dealing with her. My opponent however is mana screwed and cant cast all of his burn spells in time. I win this game off the back of temur battlerage and stubborn denials messing up his burn calculations.
G3 My opponent gets stuck on 1 land for most of the game so even though he opens with a pair of guides and several 1 mana spells, I am able to rip his hand with discard spells and I leave him with a single deflecting palm to which I have a stubborn denial.
R3 Jeskai Tempo 2-1
This is a very good player and knows his deck inside out.
G1 I have a crazy opener: double discard, 2 shadows, goyf, wraith and fetchland. I strip his hand turn 1 and 2 and land a turn 2 Shadow, followed by a turn 3 shadow goyf. The disruption plus fast clock is too much and I swing for lethal on turn 4.
G2 I side out removal, my red cards (Terminate, temur battlerage, abrupt decay, 3 pushes) and bring in Lingering souls, ranger of eos and liliana of the last hope. I present an aggressive clock similar to game 1 in which I land a turn 2 shadow which he bolts, I stubborn denial but he has a dispell. I still have another shadow and a goyf in hand which I play on turn 3 and he double paths. I play a lingering souls which gets countered and then electrolyze on the flashback. I topdeck a liliana of the last hope which gets back the bolted shadow but he has snapcaster into path and enough answers for everything I throw at him.
G3 I outgrind with a traverse for ranger of eos which is too much to handle. However he is capable of stalling me for several turns using cryptic commands to tap and draw while Im sitting on a board of goyf, double shadow and ranger of eos. Eventually he doesn't find answers and concedes.
R4 BW Tokens 2-0
We are both the only players going 3-0 so we ID but decide to play it out.
G1 I land a turn 2 shadow and allow him to swing at me with his flying tokens knowing my only way to win the game is with a giant shadow and temur battlerage. He gets me down to 6 where I can crack a land going to 3 and making shadow a 10/10 double strike trample and win.
G2 plays out in a similar way. He discards me turn 1 and takes a sweeper to which i then discard his other discard spell so he wont take my second sweeper. I land an early threat and sweep the board, then proceed to force him to chump block with tokens but I have the temur battle rage for the win once again. Id say I got lucky as BW tokens feels like an uphill battle for us, and he didnt draw his fatal pushes. Temur battlerage got me both wins in this matchup.
Take aways: Bluffing a stubborn denial is a really strong play. Unlike grixis DS which plays blue anyways, its not uncommon for them to leave up blue mana just because they couldnt spend it. However if 5c deathshadow fetches for blue and leaves it up, its an obvious sign of a stubborn denial in hand. Using this I was able to bluff stubborn denial during my games and force opponents to make awkward reads trying to play around a card that wasn't in my hand.
Temur battle rage is a good card and Im happy running 2 in the main deck.
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Breeding Pool
1x Overgrown Tomb
4x Polluted Delta
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Watery Grave
Artifact (4)
4x Mishra's Bauble
Instant (11)
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Fatal Push
2x Stubborn Denial
2x Temur Battle Rage
2x Terminate
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
Creature (12)
4x Death's Shadow
4x Street Wraith
4x Tarmogoyf
Planeswalker (3)
3x Liliana of the Veil
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Bitterblossom
1x Collective Brutality
2x Disdainful Stroke
1x Hazoret the Fervent
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Kolaghan's Command
2x Kozilek's Return
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
2x Stubborn Denial
The main deck is fairly stock, dropping an Overgrown Tomb for a Breeding Pool, giving me at least 2 sources for each color of mana and making random Ghost Quarters a lot less of a problem. The sideboard is also fairly stock, replacing the Godless Shrine and 3 Lingering Souls with 2 Bitterblossom, Kolaghan's Command, and Collective Brutality. I've been happy with the Bitterblossoms and K-Command, but Brutality is still a toss up for me. The burn matchup tends to be very close, but it's also possible that slot should just be an Engineered Explosives or a Grafdigger's Cage. I was originally on a 1/1 split of Disdainful Stroke and Ceremonious Rejection, but after a couple leagues I felt that Stroke was just generally more useful.
Naturally, I haven't actually been matched against too many grindy matchups, because you just never play against the matchups you want to test against in Modern. I have definitely noticed the difference in the consistency of the mana base. I like having a K-Command in the 75 with Lantern picking up steam (and it felt necessary after losing Lingering Souls in the Affinity matchup).
Anyway, none of this is to say "Guys, I've cracked the code", but I know that this is a discussion that's come up and wanted to toss out my ideas for facilitating it.