Looting has definitely been used in a few successful lists. It's sort of 1 or 2 thing, certainly not more than that. It's useful to pitch discard spells in the late game, or pitch an early stub against Humans or the like. It's also an easy choice to side out in a lot of match - ups because you're also sodding out the useless cards for that particular opponent.
I've been having some really great success on the back of GCR lately. Gotta say I'm happy to have him around. I'm gonna run through another league or two tonight and report back with my results
Not sure if we, the DS decks, are the main reason to include Threads of Disloyalty in the side or it is more focused to play versus Thing in the Ice that is heavy played now.
It hits both Shadow and Titi. Easier for us to deal with as we have access to green anyway, so I ain't too worried. Just pack an extra Decay or Trophy in your 75.
I don't think Threads is particularly scary for us, because Shadow is only useless for them if their life is low. Targeting a Tarmogoyf with threads is awful for us, but like whocansay mentioned - we have plenty of outs.
I'd like to share some interesting results I've had over the last two leagues.
The only puzzling thing is the loss to Whir decks. I've also played against it a few times during pick-up games and literally haven't won a single game against them in the last 3 matches. I'm considering adding trophy to my Sideboard just so I have more outs for ensnaring Bridge. What are other's experiences playing against the deck? I used to beat up on Lantern control all the time, but this new version just seems more consistent at jamming bridges and protecting them with welding jars. I really feel I should be beating this deck. I also made a bone head play during g3 against spirits which likely cost me the game. So then i ran through another league
Affinity 2-0
Prowess Shadow 0-2
Prowess Shadow 1-2 (same opponent)
Grixis Shadow 2-0
G Tron 2-1
I was much happier with these results, even though still went 3-2. Fulminator was awesome against GDS, keeping them on only two lands effectively shut down Snapcaster they were holding. But this other Shadow deck was so strange. I wouldn't call it Shadow Zoo because he had no white or Wild Nacatl. I'm guessing the list was something like:
Admittedly I have zero experience playing against the deck so maybe I'd do better with more practice. But I felt seriously outclassed. I'm convinced I didn't make any misplays. He had just enough interaction to hamstring me and take over the game by turn 4 or 5..it was brutal. Very interesting list to say the least.
Here is my shot at a blueless list. The problem I've noticed with blue lately is that against burn I can't really be aggressive with my fetches so I can't get the mana I need in a reasonable amount of time. I haven't tested without blue against Scapeshift or Amulet, and those match-ups worry me too.
I've beat burn twice in two recent leagues without drawing a single stub or Brutality, so I'm feeling confident. But I played another league this morning and lost horribly to Burn, Affinity, and GDS. Beating another Affinity player and also beating Phoenix.
Not sure how I feel about cutting Traverse for Looting, and running 17 lands with 8 three-drops in the 75 (and Ooze). Didn't you run into any mana issues?
I definitely did. I ended up still running the blue splash for GP LA which was also a mistake. The amount of times Stub was in my hand but I needed a removal spell was pretty frequent. Granted I didn't play against any of the opponents I was lacking the stubs for anyhow. I went 3-3 and dropped, playing against :
I have a history of losing to mana flood with this deck during some pretty high stakes matches at PPTQs and IQs in the past, I really try to play only 17 lands if I can get away with it. But it definitely cost me a few games this weekend. Three individual game losses took place with only one land on my side of the table. Lost game 2 to Phoenix #2 when I keep a one-lander and fetch Stomping Ground first to Tarfire his t1 Swiftspear (I wanted green mana because I was holding a Tarmogoyf and praying for my second land drop. I drew a basic forest and no other land for the game. Thing makes clean work of my Tarmogoyf and kills me with a drake. All three of the Phoenix matches I played against didn't see much Phoenix action at all. In online leagues I've always been able to deal with the deck via graveyard hate for Phoenix and pushes for Thing. The Drake is interesting third angle of attack that makes me more interested in Trophy main deck. I've traditionally liked Trophy SB but Decay main because I don't like giving them a land in the dark and Decay hits most everything anyways.
I feel there were only two critical missplays I made during the whole event. Mostly I had terrible variance with my draws, seeing red cards after I fetch Watery Grave, or drawing my basics when I needed to hurt myself. I think it's usually safe to keep one-landers with this deck as long as you have a cantrip or two but almost every single opener for me this weekend had only one land and at least half those games I missed my turn 2 land drop. I think I'm retiring the 4th color for now, at least until spell-based decks are back on top. Right now I just want more removal.
I'll say again that I feel the Prowess Zoo Jund Shadow abomination definitely outclassed me. I might have to start testing that version. Against heavily interactive decks it might be worse off, but I think it's better against most of the top decks right now.
I'll also add that there were a lot of storm players in the GP. It seemed like everywhere I looked there was some playing against our piloting storm. I saw more than 15 players easily. Anyone have a link to the results for the finals?
To chime in on 17 vs 18 lands, I've been trying a 17 land list and have consistently run into issues hitting my third land, which it always feels like this deck needs to do. At this point I think it's better to run 18 lands and a Faithless Looting or two to mitigate flooding than to try going down to 17. In particular, I've really liked the 3/2 split of Traverse and Looting.
The Prowess Shadow list is really interesting, but I'm not sure what matchups its solving vs a more traditional Traverse list.
So I've gone back to the drawing board and started with your recent list, Defish. I've made a couple small tweaks, mostly to the sideboard. But I've had a lot of success in my last few leagues. Last night I actually went 5-0 by all rights but in my last match (against Tron) my game 3 had a dynamite opening hand but I accidentally clicked mulligan and ended up losing that game/match. Opponent durdled so much in that final game and my opener would've had Stub, Tarmogoyf, Fulminator. For reference, here is the list with a few afterthoughts.
First anecdote - I absolutely love Surgical in the main. I spent a few days testing the Prowess version and I really liked Mutagenic Growth as an additional way to instant-free pump shadow (besides Wraith) because it allows for more combat tricks. Surgical fills a similar role even against opponents that don't care about their graveyard. Or even have no cards in it! (I once surgical'ed my own Bauble just to get lethal damage)
Another nod to your list Defish is the 3/2 split on Traverse/Looting. Just enough Traverses to have it turned on every time I drew it with one exception. My opening hand had 2x Traverse and only 1 land so I first cast Lay of the Land which allowed my turn 2 Tarmogoyf, and then being the only sorcery in my graveyard it enabled the second traverse with delirium in later turns. Looting came up just often enough to pitch cards I didn't need. TBH I think I only cast it twice in all 5 matches.
I understand that Liliana shines most against GDS which the meta is theoretically littered with but I haven't ran into it in any of my last three leagues with this list. The maindeck LOTV cost me game 2 against Spirits (compared to if it was a 1cmc removal) but I ended up winning that match anyway so I'm not sure how important it is. She's irrelevant enough against most of the field so I might demote my singleton to join the other in SB. Against GDS I think I still want 2x just because she's such a blowout. Maybe I can drop to 1x K-cmd in the board since that is also a card I would use against GDS. I just like having the extra artifact removal with rise of Whir prison.
The only change I'll make is -1 LOTV, +1 Tarfire. I didn't have any issues hitting delirium, even without tarfire, but my Tarmogoyfs were smaller than I'd like. I've become accustomed to a minimum 5/6 goyf over the last few months running minimum 2-3 Tarfires, with goyf usually hitting 6/7 or even higher.
Then SB I'll likely try -1 Kcmd, +1 LOTV (up to 2x SB)
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Some serious thoughts about the Prowess version as well. It's a bit too glass-cannon for my taste. It felt like playing GB infect with a transformative-interactive sideboard. I made some tweaks, played another league, made more tweaks - and before I knew it I had this amalgamation:
My first takeaway from testing the original list is that losing Traverse is just not smart. The card is so good and so easy to enable in this deck. It is THE reason to play Jund over Grixis. Another opinion is that the stock list (if you can call it that..they've had what? 3 recent finishes?) is way too all-in on the combo. I had so many hands with just pumps and no threats. Topdecking two TBRs in a row at times, when all I needed was interaction. 4/3 split on TBR/BI felt ridiculous so I dropped to 2&2 with a GCR for tutoring when needed. My tuned-up version is a list I could really see Surgical MB, but there's just no room to cut anything. Plus I think Surgical main really goes well alongside the full 8x discards.
I found a lot of the SB came in for a lot of matches because I just wanted that muscly feeling of the midrange version. I will say that I beat UW control 2-0 and 2-1 back to back in a league and it felt great. The extra threat density and increase chances of "oops, I win" were definitely to thank for these wins. Burn still proved to be a difficult match, and I randomly lost to tron once with the deck as well. Really getting annoyed with turn 3 natural trons lately... Or even worse is when I trophy a tron land and they topdeck another of the same piece. Overall I'm not dissatisfied with this version of the deck either. League results with my latest updated Prowess version.
UW Control 2-0
UW Control 2-1
Burn 1-2
Tron 1-2
GDS 2-1
The Grixis match was very close and I feel I won just because I had much better draws. I don't think that it's a favorable match-up for this version by any means.
Beating UW 2-0 is no joke, congratulations. Thats the only match i dropped at my last 2 FNMs, finishing in 1st and 2nd place respectively with a 4c list. I'm very happy with blue right now and Flayer has carried me to victory so often it's almost unreasonable.
Sticking with 2 Flayer, 2 Tarfire, 3 Stub and 2 Delay for the weeks ahead. This deck still has serious legs as far as I'm concerned. I went back to GDS for a minute and ran into the exact same issues and frustrations i always did. I just don't see the point.
My matches were:
Grixis Shadow (2-0)
Hardened Scales (0-2) - I had the chance to win both games, but it required me to take very aggressive lines and I'm a coward.
G/W Taxes (2-0)
Humans (2-1)
Grixis Shadow (2-1) - Dylan Hovey, a known GDS streamer. The video of this should go up at some point this week on his Youtube channel.
Suicide Zoo (0-2)
Burn (0-2) - Game 1 was close, and largely came down to play/draw. Game 2 I kept a 5 of 4 lands and LotV, then drew lands for literally the next 6 turns. In retrospect I think it would have been correct to go down to 4, but I also think that draw was statistically almost impossible.
Jund (1-2)
In general, the matches I lost felt like they were due to errors in either sequencing (Hardened Scales, Jund) or sideboarding (Suicide Zoo), with the Burn loss being somewhat decided by weird variance in game 2. That being said, I've really been struggling to feel comfortable about my Burn matchup, and Ad Nauseam has seen a very real uptick on MTGO. Taking into account what both of you had to say about your lists, I'm interested in starting with something like this:
This is still a rough sketch, and I'm debating if I want to move the Watery Grave to the sideboard (replacing the 4th Stub) for a second Blood Crypt, which would allow me to have triple black while fetching double red for Anger of the Gods. The lack of triple black in that scenario almost cost me a match against Humans last night, where I couldn't deploy my removal spells alongside my Shadows properly. I'm also interested in going down a Surgical and up an Anger because Humans is seeing an uptick in both play and discussion online, and with Stub I can better answer Conflagrate from Dredge, which puts more of a burden on their creatures. A single well-timed Anger can also just be such a blowout against decks like Humans, Dredge, and Hardened Scales/Frenzied Affinity that I've been debating the third copy for a while now.
I genuinely forgot how absurdly good Grim Flayer is in this archetype, @Whocansay are you also running Rampager alongside the 2 of them? I played a list similar to the above in a league last night with 2 Flayer and no Rampager, but I really found myself missing Rampager.
Ghor-Clan Rampager has won me countless games. It's a very reasonable threat to cast at times too. You can also double down with a TBR + GCR for insane damage out of nowhere, which I've actually pulled off twice in recent memory. I actually intend to test a singleton MB Snapcaster in that slot once I acquire one on MTGO. But it's like fate knows and is presenting me with these great situations where GCR shines. Casting it as a 4/4 Trample has been relevant in at least three games in recent memory. Once again GDS, once against Phoenix, and once against Dredge. That being said, I've had a strangely difficult time beating dredge in my last three competitive matches.
What is your SB strategy with the updated list Defish? With so much Anger and also Stub, I'm curious how you're landing ask your colors early enough to matter. Also, I've been shaving Fatal Push after g1 but maybe this is a mistake. And as big of a blowout as I'm nailing sometimes with Spellbomb, it's still usually not enough.
While useless against humans (I've beat them in my last two most recent matches without any sweepers anyway) could we consider something like Cry of the Carnarium? It doesn't hit Amalgam, Supreme Phantom, and a few others, but it is much easier on the mana base. I feel that I want to fetch conservatively against decks like Dredge and Spirits (and also humans / affinity) that will quickly pressure my life total.
On the subject of conserving life totals, if I'm on the draw and I need to fetch-shock in order to play a turn 2 Tarmogoyf, is it always a good idea to do so (assuming against hyper-aggro)? My Tarmogoyf is randomly getting blown out by unforeseen cards like Lightning Axe, Dismember, Conflagrate, or even double-bolt (this happened TWICE both games 1 & 2 against a UR Phoenix). But they can't always have it and it feels wrong to not put pressure on the board turn 2 (assuming I don't have more interaction to deploy first).
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Another route I'm considering is to take a page from GDS and start playing something like 2x Snapcaster main board. Dial back on red, probably only TBR main with something like 2x K-cmd Sideboard. Then for blue I'd run only the 2 Snaps MB, and only 3x Stun in the side. For threats and removal I'd rely solely on B & G so I'm wouldn't worry terribly about fetching an off-color early in any game. The snaps could play well with a 2/2 split on surgical MB/SB effectively just surgicaling someone to death post SB if the match called for it (such against Dredge). This is all just brainstorming for now but I'm speculating something like this:
Theory crafting Sideboard ideas
Against midrange or otherwise highly interactive decks
-2 TBR
+2 K-cmd
(probably bring in some number of Fulminator and Atrophy, depending on the opponent)
Against dredge
-2 Snapcaster Mage
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek
-1 Dismember
-1 Street Wraith
+3 Stubborn Denial
+1 Cry OTC
+2 Surgical extraction
(I think I've been wrong to board out Push against dredge so this is a new idea)
Against Affinity & Scales
-3 Street Wraith
-2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Assassin's Trophy
+2 K-cmd
+1 Cry OTC
Against Tron
-4 Fatal Push
-2 Dismember
-2 Snapcaster Mage
+3 Fulminator Mage
+3 Stubborn Denial
+2 Assassin's Trophy
Against humans & spirits
-2 Street Wraith
-2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Assassin's Trophy
+1 Cry OTC
+1 Collective Brutality
(this is where I'd really want a stronger sweeper)
Against UR Phoenix
-2 Street Wraith
-1 Traverse
-1 Snapcaster Mage
+2 Assassin's Trophy
+2 Surgical Extraction
Against Burn & Monored Phoenix
-4 Street Wraith
-2 Dismember
-2 Snapcaster Mage
+2 Collective Brutality
+3 Stubborn Denial
+2 Assassin's Trophy
+1 Surgical Extraction (leave in SB against traditional burn)
Against Ad Naseum
-same as above
+2 Assassin's Trophy
+3 Stubborn Denial
+2 Fulminator Mage
I'm starting to have very different views about Sideboarding. Rather than including generic hate cards I'm trying to build different 60-card decks that work well together, and then figure out which pieces are most situational or highest opportunity cost.
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Another thing I'm considering but haven't gone back to yet is the re-addition of Manamorphose. It's another way for us to lean heavily on B & G for fetching but still give flexibility when playing 4 colors.
Sorry but Snapcaster with one blue source just looks like bad deck building to me. Snap Stub is a crucial play in GDS and you have no way to replicate it. I really don't think Snapcaster is a card we want, it's just way too slow.
Sorry but Snapcaster with one blue source just looks like bad deck building to me. Snap Stub is a crucial play in GDS and you have no way to replicate it. I really don't think Snapcaster is a card we want, it's just way too slow.
totally agree.
on a similar note, I often tested 2 or 3 stubborn denials in the sideboard of this deck, and it was actually fantastic. Sideboard because yes, I was only running one blue source and the purpose of stub was to hamper combo decks primarily.
I still like this jund-ish version of death's shadow, I think it's my favourite version.
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Modern: G Tron, Vannifar, Jund, Druid/Vizier combo, Humans, Eldrazi Stompy (Serum Powder), Amulet, Grishoalbrand, Breach Titan, Turns, Eternal Command, As Foretold Living End, Elves, Cheerios, RUG Scapeshift
I don't think I'd run blue just for Stubs in the 75 but Delay is simply a marvelous card and I strongly implore anyone running blue to at least give it a shot. It hits everything.
What is your SB strategy with the updated list Defish? With so much Anger and also Stub, I'm curious how you're landing ask your colors early enough to matter. Also, I've been shaving Fatal Push after g1 but maybe this is a mistake. And as big of a blowout as I'm nailing sometimes with Spellbomb, it's still usually not enough.
My list is too in-flux to give a specific answer, but in general I like bringing in the obvious cards like Anger of the Gods, Surgical, and Stubborn Denial if its in the sideboard. Mana wise, I try to fetch for Blood Crypt, Stomping Ground, and Watery Grave, which lets you cast both Anger and Stub. The downside is that you can't Traverse and play a Goyf on the same turn. My cut hierarchy is typically Lilianas > 2 Street Wraiths > 2 Assassin's Trophies > 1 Thoughtseize > 1 Fatal Push. It's important to have some number of ways to remove Stinkweed Imp as a blocker, because if you start to put them behind they'll start hard casting them. The Lilianas get cut because they're just terrible, I cut 2 Wraiths as a hedge against getting randomly blown out by Creeping Chill, and the Trophies go because I don't want to help them reanimate Bloodghast.
I've also been having some trouble with getting my t2 creatures to stick, and have been gradually upping the number so I can just keep running them out. I'm currently considering a list with the 3 Stub in the main, no Rampager, and 2 Grim Flayers, so that I can more consistently get a creature down to start clocking on turn 2. I've been really impressed with Grim Flayer in the current meta, it seems like most decks either don't want to block or just want to chump with x/1 tokens, so he connects a lot. I read an article a while back about a list that won a PPTQ with 18 lands, 3 Faithless Looting, 2 Traverse, and 2 Grim Flayer, which has always been really intriguing. There's real power in the synergy between Looting and Flayer, but I don't know if there's room in the 75 for that engine and the Stubs.
I'll echo the sentiment that Snapcaster is probably not the way to go unless you lean deeper into blue, and in general I'm not sure that he's really solving many problems.
I played Jund Shadow at Chicago Regionals and cashed going 6-2-1 (ID rd 9). I played a pretty meta list with graveyard decks in mind and went 2-0 against monored phoenix and smashed dredge.
Scavenging ooze was the best card all day I think he is great in the deck, allowing you to manage your life total in this aggressive meta.
My other wins were skred dragons, bg rock, and grixis shadow. I was glad the deck felt grindy enough in all those matchups. The Spellskite is a card I highly suggest, as you can combine it with a fetchland to take yourself to just about any life total, due to strange rules interactions. It is also useful to redirect Welding Jars. Anyways hope you like my list and I am a firm believer that straight Jund Shadow is a completely viable route in this chalice, blood moon, turn 3 meta.
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I've been having some really great success on the back of GCR lately. Gotta say I'm happy to have him around. I'm gonna run through another league or two tonight and report back with my results
Draft My Cube!
It can be very problematic for us. Isn't it?
Not sure if we, the DS decks, are the main reason to include Threads of Disloyalty in the side or it is more focused to play versus Thing in the Ice that is heavy played now.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I'd like to share some interesting results I've had over the last two leagues.
Burn 2-1
Lanternless 0-2
Spirits 1-2
Humans 2-1
Merfolk 2-1
The only puzzling thing is the loss to Whir decks. I've also played against it a few times during pick-up games and literally haven't won a single game against them in the last 3 matches. I'm considering adding trophy to my Sideboard just so I have more outs for ensnaring Bridge. What are other's experiences playing against the deck? I used to beat up on Lantern control all the time, but this new version just seems more consistent at jamming bridges and protecting them with welding jars. I really feel I should be beating this deck. I also made a bone head play during g3 against spirits which likely cost me the game. So then i ran through another league
Affinity 2-0
Prowess Shadow 0-2
Prowess Shadow 1-2 (same opponent)
Grixis Shadow 2-0
G Tron 2-1
I was much happier with these results, even though still went 3-2. Fulminator was awesome against GDS, keeping them on only two lands effectively shut down Snapcaster they were holding. But this other Shadow deck was so strange. I wouldn't call it Shadow Zoo because he had no white or Wild Nacatl. I'm guessing the list was something like:
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Soul Scar Mage
4 Street Wraith
4 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Fatal Push
3 Lightning bolt
4 Mutagenic Growth
3 Become Immense
2 Temur Battle Rage
4 Mishra's Bauble
18 lands
Admittedly I have zero experience playing against the deck so maybe I'd do better with more practice. But I felt seriously outclassed. I'm convinced I didn't make any misplays. He had just enough interaction to hamstring me and take over the game by turn 4 or 5..it was brutal. Very interesting list to say the least.
Any thoughts?
Draft My Cube!
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1677832
Thoughts, eh, looks fun, explosive and easy to disrupt.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Street Wraith
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
Spells (29)
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Faithless Looting
3 Tarfire
3 Temur Battle Rage
2 Fatal Push
2 Dismember
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Collective Brutality
2 Assassin's Trophy
1 Fatal push
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Hazoret the Fervant
1 Liliana, the Last hope
I've beat burn twice in two recent leagues without drawing a single stub or Brutality, so I'm feeling confident. But I played another league this morning and lost horribly to Burn, Affinity, and GDS. Beating another Affinity player and also beating Phoenix.
Draft My Cube!
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Izzet Phoenix 2-1
Izzet Phoenix 0-2
Storm 2-0
Infect 2-1
Izzet Phoenix 1-2
Prowess Shadow 0-2
I have a history of losing to mana flood with this deck during some pretty high stakes matches at PPTQs and IQs in the past, I really try to play only 17 lands if I can get away with it. But it definitely cost me a few games this weekend. Three individual game losses took place with only one land on my side of the table. Lost game 2 to Phoenix #2 when I keep a one-lander and fetch Stomping Ground first to Tarfire his t1 Swiftspear (I wanted green mana because I was holding a Tarmogoyf and praying for my second land drop. I drew a basic forest and no other land for the game. Thing makes clean work of my Tarmogoyf and kills me with a drake. All three of the Phoenix matches I played against didn't see much Phoenix action at all. In online leagues I've always been able to deal with the deck via graveyard hate for Phoenix and pushes for Thing. The Drake is interesting third angle of attack that makes me more interested in Trophy main deck. I've traditionally liked Trophy SB but Decay main because I don't like giving them a land in the dark and Decay hits most everything anyways.
I feel there were only two critical missplays I made during the whole event. Mostly I had terrible variance with my draws, seeing red cards after I fetch Watery Grave, or drawing my basics when I needed to hurt myself. I think it's usually safe to keep one-landers with this deck as long as you have a cantrip or two but almost every single opener for me this weekend had only one land and at least half those games I missed my turn 2 land drop. I think I'm retiring the 4th color for now, at least until spell-based decks are back on top. Right now I just want more removal.
I'll say again that I feel the Prowess Zoo Jund Shadow abomination definitely outclassed me. I might have to start testing that version. Against heavily interactive decks it might be worse off, but I think it's better against most of the top decks right now.
I'll also add that there were a lot of storm players in the GP. It seemed like everywhere I looked there was some playing against our piloting storm. I saw more than 15 players easily. Anyone have a link to the results for the finals?
Draft My Cube!
The Prowess Shadow list is really interesting, but I'm not sure what matchups its solving vs a more traditional Traverse list.
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Street Wraith
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Faithless Looting
3 Fatal Push
2 Dismember
2 Assassin's Trophy
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Temur Battle Rage
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Watery Grave
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Fulminator Mage
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Collective Brutality
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Fatal Push
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Nihil Spellbomb
Monored Phoenix 2-0
Dredge 2-0
Jeskai Midrange 2-0
Bant Spirits 2-1
Tron 1-2
First anecdote - I absolutely love Surgical in the main. I spent a few days testing the Prowess version and I really liked Mutagenic Growth as an additional way to instant-free pump shadow (besides Wraith) because it allows for more combat tricks. Surgical fills a similar role even against opponents that don't care about their graveyard. Or even have no cards in it! (I once surgical'ed my own Bauble just to get lethal damage)
Another nod to your list Defish is the 3/2 split on Traverse/Looting. Just enough Traverses to have it turned on every time I drew it with one exception. My opening hand had 2x Traverse and only 1 land so I first cast Lay of the Land which allowed my turn 2 Tarmogoyf, and then being the only sorcery in my graveyard it enabled the second traverse with delirium in later turns. Looting came up just often enough to pitch cards I didn't need. TBH I think I only cast it twice in all 5 matches.
I understand that Liliana shines most against GDS which the meta is theoretically littered with but I haven't ran into it in any of my last three leagues with this list. The maindeck LOTV cost me game 2 against Spirits (compared to if it was a 1cmc removal) but I ended up winning that match anyway so I'm not sure how important it is. She's irrelevant enough against most of the field so I might demote my singleton to join the other in SB. Against GDS I think I still want 2x just because she's such a blowout. Maybe I can drop to 1x K-cmd in the board since that is also a card I would use against GDS. I just like having the extra artifact removal with rise of Whir prison.
The only change I'll make is -1 LOTV, +1 Tarfire. I didn't have any issues hitting delirium, even without tarfire, but my Tarmogoyfs were smaller than I'd like. I've become accustomed to a minimum 5/6 goyf over the last few months running minimum 2-3 Tarfires, with goyf usually hitting 6/7 or even higher.
Then SB I'll likely try -1 Kcmd, +1 LOTV (up to 2x SB)
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Some serious thoughts about the Prowess version as well. It's a bit too glass-cannon for my taste. It felt like playing GB infect with a transformative-interactive sideboard. I made some tweaks, played another league, made more tweaks - and before I knew it I had this amalgamation:
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Death's Shadow
4 Soul-Scar Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Street Wraith
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Temur Battle Rage
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
1 Dismember
3 Mutagenic Growth
2 Become Immense
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
3 Hooting Mandrills
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Fatal Push
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Forest
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Collective Brutality
1 Claim//Fame
My first takeaway from testing the original list is that losing Traverse is just not smart. The card is so good and so easy to enable in this deck. It is THE reason to play Jund over Grixis. Another opinion is that the stock list (if you can call it that..they've had what? 3 recent finishes?) is way too all-in on the combo. I had so many hands with just pumps and no threats. Topdecking two TBRs in a row at times, when all I needed was interaction. 4/3 split on TBR/BI felt ridiculous so I dropped to 2&2 with a GCR for tutoring when needed. My tuned-up version is a list I could really see Surgical MB, but there's just no room to cut anything. Plus I think Surgical main really goes well alongside the full 8x discards.
I found a lot of the SB came in for a lot of matches because I just wanted that muscly feeling of the midrange version. I will say that I beat UW control 2-0 and 2-1 back to back in a league and it felt great. The extra threat density and increase chances of "oops, I win" were definitely to thank for these wins. Burn still proved to be a difficult match, and I randomly lost to tron once with the deck as well. Really getting annoyed with turn 3 natural trons lately... Or even worse is when I trophy a tron land and they topdeck another of the same piece. Overall I'm not dissatisfied with this version of the deck either. League results with my latest updated Prowess version.
UW Control 2-0
UW Control 2-1
Burn 1-2
Tron 1-2
GDS 2-1
The Grixis match was very close and I feel I won just because I had much better draws. I don't think that it's a favorable match-up for this version by any means.
Draft My Cube!
Sticking with 2 Flayer, 2 Tarfire, 3 Stub and 2 Delay for the weeks ahead. This deck still has serious legs as far as I'm concerned. I went back to GDS for a minute and ran into the exact same issues and frustrations i always did. I just don't see the point.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Forest
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wooded Foothills
Sorcery (12)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
2x Assassin's Trophy
3x Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
2x Tarfire
2x Temur Battle Rage
Creature (13)
4x Death's Shadow
1x Ghor-Clan Rampager
4x Street Wraith
4x Tarmogoyf
Artifact (4)
4x Mishra's Bauble
Planeswalker (2)
3x Liliana of the Veil
1 Ancient Grudge
2x Anger of the Gods
1x Assassin's Trophy
1 Fatal Push
3x Fulminator Mage
3x Life Goes On
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Surgical Extraction
My matches were:
Grixis Shadow (2-0)
Hardened Scales (0-2) - I had the chance to win both games, but it required me to take very aggressive lines and I'm a coward.
G/W Taxes (2-0)
Humans (2-1)
Grixis Shadow (2-1) - Dylan Hovey, a known GDS streamer. The video of this should go up at some point this week on his Youtube channel.
Suicide Zoo (0-2)
Burn (0-2) - Game 1 was close, and largely came down to play/draw. Game 2 I kept a 5 of 4 lands and LotV, then drew lands for literally the next 6 turns. In retrospect I think it would have been correct to go down to 4, but I also think that draw was statistically almost impossible.
Jund (1-2)
In general, the matches I lost felt like they were due to errors in either sequencing (Hardened Scales, Jund) or sideboarding (Suicide Zoo), with the Burn loss being somewhat decided by weird variance in game 2. That being said, I've really been struggling to feel comfortable about my Burn matchup, and Ad Nauseam has seen a very real uptick on MTGO. Taking into account what both of you had to say about your lists, I'm interested in starting with something like this:
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Forest
1x Overgrown Tomb
2x Polluted Delta
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Watery Grave
2x Wooded Foothills
Planeswalker (2)
2x Liliana of the Veil
Creature (14)
4x Death's Shadow
1x Ghor-Clan Rampager
1x Grim Flayer
4x Street Wraith
4x Tarmogoyf
2x Assassin's Trophy
4x Fatal Push
2x Tarfire
2x Temur Battle Rage
Artifact (4)
4x Mishra's Bauble
Sorcery (12)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Thoughtseize
4x Traverse the Ulvenwald
3x Anger of the Gods
1x Assassin's Trophy
2x Collective Brutality
2x Fulminator Mage
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
4x Stubborn Denial
2x Surgical Extraction
This is still a rough sketch, and I'm debating if I want to move the Watery Grave to the sideboard (replacing the 4th Stub) for a second Blood Crypt, which would allow me to have triple black while fetching double red for Anger of the Gods. The lack of triple black in that scenario almost cost me a match against Humans last night, where I couldn't deploy my removal spells alongside my Shadows properly. I'm also interested in going down a Surgical and up an Anger because Humans is seeing an uptick in both play and discussion online, and with Stub I can better answer Conflagrate from Dredge, which puts more of a burden on their creatures. A single well-timed Anger can also just be such a blowout against decks like Humans, Dredge, and Hardened Scales/Frenzied Affinity that I've been debating the third copy for a while now.
I genuinely forgot how absurdly good Grim Flayer is in this archetype, @Whocansay are you also running Rampager alongside the 2 of them? I played a list similar to the above in a league last night with 2 Flayer and no Rampager, but I really found myself missing Rampager.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
What is your SB strategy with the updated list Defish? With so much Anger and also Stub, I'm curious how you're landing ask your colors early enough to matter. Also, I've been shaving Fatal Push after g1 but maybe this is a mistake. And as big of a blowout as I'm nailing sometimes with Spellbomb, it's still usually not enough.
While useless against humans (I've beat them in my last two most recent matches without any sweepers anyway) could we consider something like Cry of the Carnarium? It doesn't hit Amalgam, Supreme Phantom, and a few others, but it is much easier on the mana base. I feel that I want to fetch conservatively against decks like Dredge and Spirits (and also humans / affinity) that will quickly pressure my life total.
On the subject of conserving life totals, if I'm on the draw and I need to fetch-shock in order to play a turn 2 Tarmogoyf, is it always a good idea to do so (assuming against hyper-aggro)? My Tarmogoyf is randomly getting blown out by unforeseen cards like Lightning Axe, Dismember, Conflagrate, or even double-bolt (this happened TWICE both games 1 & 2 against a UR Phoenix). But they can't always have it and it feels wrong to not put pressure on the board turn 2 (assuming I don't have more interaction to deploy first).
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Another route I'm considering is to take a page from GDS and start playing something like 2x Snapcaster main board. Dial back on red, probably only TBR main with something like 2x K-cmd Sideboard. Then for blue I'd run only the 2 Snaps MB, and only 3x Stun in the side. For threats and removal I'd rely solely on B & G so I'm wouldn't worry terribly about fetching an off-color early in any game. The snaps could play well with a 2/2 split on surgical MB/SB effectively just surgicaling someone to death post SB if the match called for it (such against Dredge). This is all just brainstorming for now but I'm speculating something like this:
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster Mage
Spells
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Fatal Push
2 Dismember
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Temur battle rage
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded foothills
1 Polluted Delta
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood crypt
1 Stomping ground
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Collective Brutality
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Kolaghan's command
1 Cry of the Carnarium
3 Stubborn Denial
Theory crafting Sideboard ideas
Against midrange or otherwise highly interactive decks
-2 TBR
+2 K-cmd
(probably bring in some number of Fulminator and Atrophy, depending on the opponent)
Against dredge
-2 Snapcaster Mage
-2 Inquisition of Kozilek
-1 Dismember
-1 Street Wraith
+3 Stubborn Denial
+1 Cry OTC
+2 Surgical extraction
(I think I've been wrong to board out Push against dredge so this is a new idea)
Against Affinity & Scales
-3 Street Wraith
-2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Assassin's Trophy
+2 K-cmd
+1 Cry OTC
Against Tron
-4 Fatal Push
-2 Dismember
-2 Snapcaster Mage
+3 Fulminator Mage
+3 Stubborn Denial
+2 Assassin's Trophy
Against humans & spirits
-2 Street Wraith
-2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Assassin's Trophy
+1 Cry OTC
+1 Collective Brutality
(this is where I'd really want a stronger sweeper)
Against UR Phoenix
-2 Street Wraith
-1 Traverse
-1 Snapcaster Mage
+2 Assassin's Trophy
+2 Surgical Extraction
Against Burn & Monored Phoenix
-4 Street Wraith
-2 Dismember
-2 Snapcaster Mage
+2 Collective Brutality
+3 Stubborn Denial
+2 Assassin's Trophy
+1 Surgical Extraction (leave in SB against traditional burn)
Against Primeval decks (Scapeshift & Amulet)
-4 Fatal Push
-2 Snapcaster Mage
-2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
+3 Fulminator Mage
+3 Stubborn Denial
+2 Assassin's Trophy
Against Whir Prison
-4 Fatal Push
-2 Dismember
-1 Snapcaster Mage
+2 Assassin's trophy
+3 Stubborn Denial
+2 K-cmd
Against Ad Naseum
-same as above
+2 Assassin's Trophy
+3 Stubborn Denial
+2 Fulminator Mage
I'm starting to have very different views about Sideboarding. Rather than including generic hate cards I'm trying to build different 60-card decks that work well together, and then figure out which pieces are most situational or highest opportunity cost.
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Another thing I'm considering but haven't gone back to yet is the re-addition of Manamorphose. It's another way for us to lean heavily on B & G for fetching but still give flexibility when playing 4 colors.
Draft My Cube!
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
totally agree.
on a similar note, I often tested 2 or 3 stubborn denials in the sideboard of this deck, and it was actually fantastic. Sideboard because yes, I was only running one blue source and the purpose of stub was to hamper combo decks primarily.
I still like this jund-ish version of death's shadow, I think it's my favourite version.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
My list is too in-flux to give a specific answer, but in general I like bringing in the obvious cards like Anger of the Gods, Surgical, and Stubborn Denial if its in the sideboard. Mana wise, I try to fetch for Blood Crypt, Stomping Ground, and Watery Grave, which lets you cast both Anger and Stub. The downside is that you can't Traverse and play a Goyf on the same turn. My cut hierarchy is typically Lilianas > 2 Street Wraiths > 2 Assassin's Trophies > 1 Thoughtseize > 1 Fatal Push. It's important to have some number of ways to remove Stinkweed Imp as a blocker, because if you start to put them behind they'll start hard casting them. The Lilianas get cut because they're just terrible, I cut 2 Wraiths as a hedge against getting randomly blown out by Creeping Chill, and the Trophies go because I don't want to help them reanimate Bloodghast.
I've also been having some trouble with getting my t2 creatures to stick, and have been gradually upping the number so I can just keep running them out. I'm currently considering a list with the 3 Stub in the main, no Rampager, and 2 Grim Flayers, so that I can more consistently get a creature down to start clocking on turn 2. I've been really impressed with Grim Flayer in the current meta, it seems like most decks either don't want to block or just want to chump with x/1 tokens, so he connects a lot. I read an article a while back about a list that won a PPTQ with 18 lands, 3 Faithless Looting, 2 Traverse, and 2 Grim Flayer, which has always been really intriguing. There's real power in the synergy between Looting and Flayer, but I don't know if there's room in the 75 for that engine and the Stubs.
I'll echo the sentiment that Snapcaster is probably not the way to go unless you lean deeper into blue, and in general I'm not sure that he's really solving many problems.
There are dozens of us!
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Scavenging ooze was the best card all day I think he is great in the deck, allowing you to manage your life total in this aggressive meta.
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Polluted Delta
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Forest
1 Swamp
Creatures
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Street Wraith
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Mishra's Bauble
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Faithless Looting
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Fatal Push
2 Dismember
2 Assassin's Trophy
2 Temur Battle Rage
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Kolaghan's Command
3 Collective Brutality
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Spellskite
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Blood Moon
My other wins were skred dragons, bg rock, and grixis shadow. I was glad the deck felt grindy enough in all those matchups. The Spellskite is a card I highly suggest, as you can combine it with a fetchland to take yourself to just about any life total, due to strange rules interactions. It is also useful to redirect Welding Jars. Anyways hope you like my list and I am a firm believer that straight Jund Shadow is a completely viable route in this chalice, blood moon, turn 3 meta.