UW is just awful awful. It's my most dreaded matchup after Jund, and feels pretty much unbeatable unless everything goes perfectly and they don't draw Verdict. I agree that the tempo plan is the best option. Souls are close to useless.
It's a poor state of affairs overall - but as Spooly said, Terminus is easier to beat than Verdict so maybe things are looking up for us.
In my last two leagues I manage to beat Jund but lose to UW, so maybe UW is worse
Yeah, trying to grind against them seems awful. They just have so many more and better tools. But the tempo plan doesn't seem that great against UW either. I'm not sure what the best plan is.
I have often wondered whether it's better to try to grind or just cheese out wins against the fair grindy decks. If anyone wants to test on Cockatrice, we can play specific matchups to test different postboard configurations. As an aside, I have been playing something very similar to the OG Spooly Manamorphose lists but with 1x Snapcaster Mage (see below). I know Spooly isn't a fan, but the card has been nothing short of amazing so far, and I think that having it as a Traverse option adds a lot of utility and power to the deck. I had been playing 1x Grim Flayer instead, but I didn't like it much; I almost never want to Traverse for it because it's generally worse than getting a Shadow or Goyf, so it's pretty much only good when you naturally draw it as a threat. Even then, I find it to be generally low-impact. The trigger upon dealing damage is nice, but it doesn't generate any actual CA, and a 4/4 just doesn't present enough of a clock for me. The best use of Grim Flayer is acting as Goyf #5 when we don't have anything else to deploy on T2, but then it's often a 2/2 that dies to Bolt or Brutality. Ouch.
Problems 1x Snapcaster Mage helps to solve:
1. Gives us a powerful Traverse target when we're making a bunch of land drops. Because of Manamorphose (and the 8 other free cantrips), I make my 3rd land drop in the majority of games. One of the greatest issues with the deck is having very strong turns 1-3/4, and then fizzling out due to drawing excessive lands. Snapcaster Mage gives us access to powerful lines when we start to flood out in the midgame. It essentially allows us to Traverse for a spell, which is very useful in a number of situations. Snap -> Traverse -> Shadow is a great way to get multiple bodies into play in racing situations where we need to insulate our board/life total. Snap -> discard spell is a great line to have access to, as is Snap -> removal.
2. It's a grindy card that's good in both fast and slow matchups because it plays to the board, as well as acts as additional disruption/removal depending on what we need the most (and it flashes back Traverse to get Shadow).
3. As mentioned previously, I think Grim Flayer is best when we draw it naturally, and in most of these situations I think Snapcaster Mage is better. The biggest exception is when Flayer is our T2 threat, but outside of this I would generally prefer Snap.
Snapcaster has been so good, in fact, that I am tempted to play a second copy. But alas, I don't think there is anything to cut!
In the process of writing an article, so I won't spoil details about much, I believe the decks will be posted on MTGTop8 soon and be looking forward to giving those tips in the very near future.
I'm trying the one-of snapcaster now, and so far I've traversed for it once as a removal spell against Humans, but also drew it in some terrible spots. We'll see how it goes.
With Bugler now in humans, I think we want to increase the sweeper count. Lavamancer is less likely to really hurt them. So I'm thinking 1 Lavaman 2 Radiant Flames / Anger. I used to be a Radiant Flames guy, but the vengevine deck is making me want Anger despite the mana issues it causes. That deck also has me running Surgical instead of Spellbomb.
Remember that often times against Vengevine they will have a sac outlet so Anger isn't always going to connect. I like Radiant Flames because of the X=4 trick against Humans and Thalia.
Remember that often times against Vengevine they will have a sac outlet so Anger isn't always going to connect. I like Radiant Flames because of the X=4 trick against Humans and Thalia.
Yeah, it helps though. Short of Gargadon, we have plenty of spot removal to hit their sac outlets. And one of the main reasons I keep losing is stuff like Gravecrawler and Bloodghast is just relentless. Plus it adds percentage points against Hollow One. The X=4 trick happens (and matters at the same time) so infrequently that it's hard for me to really factor that in.
Maybe a 1/1 split of the two red sweepers could be considered? I guess in the matches where you want it you really aren't going to be searching up early blue mana (or at all) so getting that early double-red shouldn't be as difficult as I had envisioned.
Is Kozilek's Return basically off the table, since it only hits for 2? Affinity has certainly dropped off the radar but being an instant might still give K-Return some applications against Spirits. Then again they are playing more lords than ever so its likely even the 1-toughness fliers will get out of Pyroclasm range fairly easily.
I think I'll try the switch to Anger also. The functionality is pretty much the same against humans but it does help the Hollow One and Vengevine match-ups. So far I haven't lost to either of those decks yet but I think I've just been lucky. Neither of them have got the crazy busted starts against me yet.
The last build I tried cut the blue entirely in order to better support Anger's double red (and tried some other things). This was... OK. Not having blue changes the KCI matchup from a slam dunk to something a little tougher, and cost me a match win. Though I should probably have had more surgicals partially for them.
1-2 vs Eldrazi Tron
2-0 vs Angel Stompy
2-0 vs Puresteel Combo
2-0 vs Dredge
I would have won the g3 against Eldrazi Tron, but I only draw Lingering Souls as my only threat during the first 10-12 turns.. I had ripped his hand apart and hosed his mana with Alpine Moon, but just could not get him down in time..
Solid 75 to my meta, no changes planned currently.
1-2 vs Eldrazi Tron
2-0 vs Angel Stompy
2-0 vs Puresteel Combo
2-0 vs Dredge
I would have won the g3 against Eldrazi Tron, but I only draw Lingering Souls as my only threat during the first 10-12 turns.. I had ripped his hand apart and hosed his mana with Alpine Moon, but just could not get him down in time..
Solid 75 to my meta, no changes planned currently.
I have a few questions for you.
- How are the Lilianas last hope in main deck doing? Compared to Lotv?
- Do you miss blue counterspells in the 75? What made you decide to run white instead of blue?
- How is k command doing?
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- How are the Lilianas last hope in main deck doing? Compared to Lotv?
- Do you miss blue counterspells in the 75? What made you decide to run white instead of blue?
- How is k command doing?
My meta is heavily biased towards midrange and token strategies, that is the main reason to go with Lili the Last Hope instead of LotV. There are also control decks quite often, but I felt that with the white splash I have enough grinding power against them. I did not miss blue in those matchups I faced last night.
KCommand did fine against all the matchups, being especially bonkers against the puresteel combo. I used all the mods of KCommand last night. There was also one new KCI being played, so I suppose it will stay in the main deck.
Played in a small PPTQ this weekend with more missed results. I tried adding some lightning bolt to my list at the cost of a new IOK and my Singleton Tarfire.
Round 1 - we showed up late because I got some false info on the starting time of the tournament. But I had pre-registered so the judge let me play, just taking an auto loss for the first round.
Round 2 - Pyro Prison (2-0)
I destroyed him game one with a single attack, 12/12 Shadow and TBR. Game two went similarly, countering his critical Chandra and then following up with two 11/11 Shadows and taking him from 20 life to 0, punching through his Goblin blocker with TBR.
Round 3 - Bant Spirits (0-2)
Game one went as expected, he pummeled me with fliers and I didn't have enough answers. Game two I couldn't have drawn better, with two Fatal Push and a lightning bolt in my opening hand. He still just had too many fliers that I couldn't deal with. He won with 3 life while I had TBR in hand and a 10/10 Shadow on board, but I knew he was holding Spell Queller so I couldn't cast it.
Round 4 - Pyro Prison again (2-0)
This guy scooped both games after I got two Thoughtseize and a Shadow by turn 2 both games. He was a bit sour about it too.
Round 5 - UG Infect (0-2)
This was my friend who's list I've tested against plenty of times. In practice games he has beaten me maybe 1/20 times. But I pulled to 5 both games here and still couldn't draw anything relevant. I don't consider this a real loss because this is normally a slam dunk.
----
Overall I think my main takeaway here is that I need something to fight the AEther Vial decks. Everything from Taxes, Humans, and Spirits are just mopping the floor with me. I think I'll put lingering souls back in my sideboard and see if that helps. Spooly had suggested before to not waste too many SB slots on the UWx and Mardu match-ups and I think that might be the right call.
What would you recommend? I'm not sold on Lavamancer because too many relevant threats have more than 2 toughness. But also I haven't used Golgari Charm or Nihil Spellbomb much lately. The extra TBR could probably be removed too.
Due to a metagame full of Mardu Pyromancer and KCI I will include two Silent Gravestone in my sideboard.
I don't think Gravestone is very good against Mardu. 4 mana is a lot to activate. Nihil Spellbomb is much better there. It is better against KCI, but I don't think we need narrow hate, as long as you're playing blue. Countermagic + discard + clock does the trick. Delay in particular is great. If your graveyard hate of choice is Surgical Extraction, you can also steal games that way. Taking either KCI or Trawler removes a lot of outs. Though beware of Sai postboard as an alternate win condition.
What would you recommend? I'm not sold on Lavamancer because too many relevant threats have more than 2 toughness. But also I haven't used Golgari Charm or Nihil Spellbomb much lately. The extra TBR could probably be removed too.
I think you have too many artifact destruction cards. They aren't even that great against KCI - counters are much better. I'd run a couple copies of Delay in the SB - it's literally the best counter against KCI (because of Buried Ruin), and also is good against Tron, Valakut, and basically anywhere where Stub is good. More sweepers is also good for all these humans and spirits decks and such. More of the artifact hate should probably be Abrade - it's removal in those matchups as well. Spellbomb could be Surgical if you really want to go hard on the graveyard decks (though it doesn't do anything against KCI).
It's a poor state of affairs overall - but as Spooly said, Terminus is easier to beat than Verdict so maybe things are looking up for us.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Yeah, trying to grind against them seems awful. They just have so many more and better tools. But the tempo plan doesn't seem that great against UW either. I'm not sure what the best plan is.
Problems 1x Snapcaster Mage helps to solve:
1. Gives us a powerful Traverse target when we're making a bunch of land drops. Because of Manamorphose (and the 8 other free cantrips), I make my 3rd land drop in the majority of games. One of the greatest issues with the deck is having very strong turns 1-3/4, and then fizzling out due to drawing excessive lands. Snapcaster Mage gives us access to powerful lines when we start to flood out in the midgame. It essentially allows us to Traverse for a spell, which is very useful in a number of situations. Snap -> Traverse -> Shadow is a great way to get multiple bodies into play in racing situations where we need to insulate our board/life total. Snap -> discard spell is a great line to have access to, as is Snap -> removal.
2. It's a grindy card that's good in both fast and slow matchups because it plays to the board, as well as acts as additional disruption/removal depending on what we need the most (and it flashes back Traverse to get Shadow).
3. As mentioned previously, I think Grim Flayer is best when we draw it naturally, and in most of these situations I think Snapcaster Mage is better. The biggest exception is when Flayer is our T2 threat, but outside of this I would generally prefer Snap.
Snapcaster has been so good, in fact, that I am tempted to play a second copy. But alas, I don't think there is anything to cut!
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Street Wraith
1 Snapcaster Mage
Spells
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Fatal Push
2 Dismember
2 Temur Battle Rage
4 Manamorphose
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Hazoret the Fervent
2 Abrade
2 Delay
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Collective Brutality
P.S. Spooly you were right, I had to mull a 5 last week and my 4 was better
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Flayer
4 Street Wraith
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Faithless Looting
2 Fatal Push
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Duress
1 Pyroclasm
2 Alpine Moon
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Leyline of the Void
In the process of writing an article, so I won't spoil details about much, I believe the decks will be posted on MTGTop8 soon and be looking forward to giving those tips in the very near future.
With Bugler now in humans, I think we want to increase the sweeper count. Lavamancer is less likely to really hurt them. So I'm thinking 1 Lavaman 2 Radiant Flames / Anger. I used to be a Radiant Flames guy, but the vengevine deck is making me want Anger despite the mana issues it causes. That deck also has me running Surgical instead of Spellbomb.
Draft My Cube!
Yeah, it helps though. Short of Gargadon, we have plenty of spot removal to hit their sac outlets. And one of the main reasons I keep losing is stuff like Gravecrawler and Bloodghast is just relentless. Plus it adds percentage points against Hollow One. The X=4 trick happens (and matters at the same time) so infrequently that it's hard for me to really factor that in.
Is Kozilek's Return basically off the table, since it only hits for 2? Affinity has certainly dropped off the radar but being an instant might still give K-Return some applications against Spirits. Then again they are playing more lords than ever so its likely even the 1-toughness fliers will get out of Pyroclasm range fairly easily.
I think I'll try the switch to Anger also. The functionality is pretty much the same against humans but it does help the Hollow One and Vengevine match-ups. So far I haven't lost to either of those decks yet but I think I've just been lucky. Neither of them have got the crazy busted starts against me yet.
Draft My Cube!
The last build I tried cut the blue entirely in order to better support Anger's double red (and tried some other things). This was... OK. Not having blue changes the KCI matchup from a slam dunk to something a little tougher, and cost me a match win. Though I should probably have had more surgicals partially for them.
with 3x Faithless Looting 2 x Liliana of the Veil in the Main and 2 x Alpine Moon in the SB
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Stomping Ground
2 Godless Shrine
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
2 Temur Battle Rage
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Golgari Charm
2 Collective Brutality
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Alpine Moon
1 Ranger of Eos
3 Lingering Souls
3-1 result with the list above.
1-2 vs Eldrazi Tron
2-0 vs Angel Stompy
2-0 vs Puresteel Combo
2-0 vs Dredge
I would have won the g3 against Eldrazi Tron, but I only draw Lingering Souls as my only threat during the first 10-12 turns.. I had ripped his hand apart and hosed his mana with Alpine Moon, but just could not get him down in time..
Solid 75 to my meta, no changes planned currently.
I have a few questions for you.
- How are the Lilianas last hope in main deck doing? Compared to Lotv?
- Do you miss blue counterspells in the 75? What made you decide to run white instead of blue?
- How is k command doing?
My meta is heavily biased towards midrange and token strategies, that is the main reason to go with Lili the Last Hope instead of LotV. There are also control decks quite often, but I felt that with the white splash I have enough grinding power against them. I did not miss blue in those matchups I faced last night.
KCommand did fine against all the matchups, being especially bonkers against the puresteel combo. I used all the mods of KCommand last night. There was also one new KCI being played, so I suppose it will stay in the main deck.
Round 1 - we showed up late because I got some false info on the starting time of the tournament. But I had pre-registered so the judge let me play, just taking an auto loss for the first round.
Round 2 - Pyro Prison (2-0)
I destroyed him game one with a single attack, 12/12 Shadow and TBR. Game two went similarly, countering his critical Chandra and then following up with two 11/11 Shadows and taking him from 20 life to 0, punching through his Goblin blocker with TBR.
Round 3 - Bant Spirits (0-2)
Game one went as expected, he pummeled me with fliers and I didn't have enough answers. Game two I couldn't have drawn better, with two Fatal Push and a lightning bolt in my opening hand. He still just had too many fliers that I couldn't deal with. He won with 3 life while I had TBR in hand and a 10/10 Shadow on board, but I knew he was holding Spell Queller so I couldn't cast it.
Round 4 - Pyro Prison again (2-0)
This guy scooped both games after I got two Thoughtseize and a Shadow by turn 2 both games. He was a bit sour about it too.
Round 5 - UG Infect (0-2)
This was my friend who's list I've tested against plenty of times. In practice games he has beaten me maybe 1/20 times. But I pulled to 5 both games here and still couldn't draw anything relevant. I don't consider this a real loss because this is normally a slam dunk.
----
Overall I think my main takeaway here is that I need something to fight the AEther Vial decks. Everything from Taxes, Humans, and Spirits are just mopping the floor with me. I think I'll put lingering souls back in my sideboard and see if that helps. Spooly had suggested before to not waste too many SB slots on the UWx and Mardu match-ups and I think that might be the right call.
Draft My Cube!
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
2 Golgari Charm
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrade
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Negate
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Radiant Flames
1 Fulminator Mage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Temur Battle Rage
What would you recommend? I'm not sold on Lavamancer because too many relevant threats have more than 2 toughness. But also I haven't used Golgari Charm or Nihil Spellbomb much lately. The extra TBR could probably be removed too.
Draft My Cube!
I don't think Gravestone is very good against Mardu. 4 mana is a lot to activate. Nihil Spellbomb is much better there. It is better against KCI, but I don't think we need narrow hate, as long as you're playing blue. Countermagic + discard + clock does the trick. Delay in particular is great. If your graveyard hate of choice is Surgical Extraction, you can also steal games that way. Taking either KCI or Trawler removes a lot of outs. Though beware of Sai postboard as an alternate win condition.
I think you have too many artifact destruction cards. They aren't even that great against KCI - counters are much better. I'd run a couple copies of Delay in the SB - it's literally the best counter against KCI (because of Buried Ruin), and also is good against Tron, Valakut, and basically anywhere where Stub is good. More sweepers is also good for all these humans and spirits decks and such. More of the artifact hate should probably be Abrade - it's removal in those matchups as well. Spellbomb could be Surgical if you really want to go hard on the graveyard decks (though it doesn't do anything against KCI).