Looting has been a great Delirium enabler, allows us to bin useless discards, Bauble and lands late game, and helps find threats. Tarfires can be bolts, extra Decays or pushes depending on the meta. If we want Souls in the SB for grindy match ups and more looting value, change one Tomb or Crypt into Sacred Foundry. A copy of Claim//Fame also looks spicy with this shell when we need to bin a Goyf or Shadow.
Yeah control would be hard especially UW as they attack our mana base too. Souls shore the match up a bit, but if you see lots of control and grindy decks in your meta, Shadow is a bad choice.
Yeah control would be hard especially UW as they attack our mana base too. Souls shore the match up a bit, but if you see lots of control and grindy decks in your meta, Shadow is a bad choice.
Well, that's a given.. But if you're going to play it anyway I think Stubs are absolutely necessary. If you choose to cut blue and go for straight Jund colors, why not just play Jund?
15 SIDEBOARD
2 Back to Nature
3 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pithing Needle
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Spellskite
1 Topor Orb
2 Ancient Grudge
I played DS jund before but I changed to 4C DS and I'm returning to DS Jund but I have cut the L. Bolts (by Tarfire) in order to fuel Delirium; because in my experience I'm doing much damage with the Tarmos than with the Shadows normally reserved for final turns, specially if I'm playing versus aggro decks where I must be aware of my life count to avoid the disaster.
Sideboard:
-CB is one of my favourite cards.
I'm trying to find answers when I play versus mana deny startegies (Blood Moon or land destruction) even considening that my main plan is not reactive but linear and fast.
15 SIDEBOARD
2 Back to Nature
3 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pithing Needle
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Spellskite
1 Topor Orb
2 Ancient Grudge
I played DS jund before but I changed to 4C DS and I'm returning to DS Jund but I have cut the L. Bolts (by Tarfire) in order to fuel Delirium; because in my experience I'm doing much damage with the Tarmos than with the Shadows normally reserved for final turns, specially if I'm playing versus aggro decks where I must be aware of my life count to avoid the disaster.
Sideboard:
-CB is one of my favourite cards.
I'm trying to find answers when I play versus mana deny startegies (Blood Moon or land destruction) even considening that my main plan is not reactive but linear and fast.
What do you modify?
Thank you in advance
1. You should up your land count, 18 lands is the sweet spot, so it might be good to add 2 more fetchlands.
2. Why arent you running any blue? It costs nothing to splash a watery grave and run stubborn denial, in fact its almost required if you want to beat burn, combo and control.
3. Whispers of emrakul isnt too good, you should replace 2 of those for 2 inquisition of kozilek. Generally our turn 2 should be spend deploying a threat or more disruption. A random discard isnt very much disruptive and by the time you hit delirium you probably want to be traversing, not discarding your opponent.
4. You need to run 2 temur battle rage in the main deck, this is a necessary card and everyone will tell you to run it. Its a card that allows us to win against bad matchups or even win out of nowhere.
5. Terminate can be too mana intensive, you wont always be fetching for red mana, id go up on the fourth push (good in this human meta) and perhaps a dismember would be better in place of the other terminate, less mana intensive and can speed up you shadow.
6. You should look into splashing a 4th colour at least (Blue or white). This deck can easily run 4 colours mainboard, with the 5th colour as a splash in the sideboard. Usually the sideboard color is white with lingering souls to hedge against midrange decks.
Went 3-0 at locals with my stock 5c list (No manamorphose)
R1 Humans 2-0 G1 He mulls to 5 and I keep a decent hand with tarmogoyf and disruption. I sandbag my removal until my opponent tries to flicker a thalia´s lieutenant with resto angel. I push the liutenant and then fetch and push the resto. I overpower him with tarmogoyf. G2 He mulls to 6, I keep a hand full of gas with lots of disruption and lingering souls. We grind and my opponent hits 29 life thanks to an auriok champion I cant remove. while im at 9 life. Lingering souls tokens keep him from attacking. My only large threat is a 5/6 tarmogofy which gets copied by a phantasmal image. I attack and play a temur battle rage on his block to take care of the tarmo copy. Eventually Im down to 2 and I draw my sided radiant flames and sweep for 4 colours thanks to thalia´s tax. I wipe his board and take over the game.
R2 Vizier Elves 2-0 G1This has always felt like a very easy matchup. G1 is a grindfest. Hes on the play. I keep a hand with dismember, thoughtseize, 2 baubles and other disuption but no threat. Im down to than 8 life in the first 2 turns due to, fetches, thoughtseize and a dismember I was forced to play on a mana dork. He keeps playing creatures and cracking horizon canopies to refill his hand while I keep minusing a LoTV, pushing and abrupt decaying his creatures. We are both topdecking with empty fields at this point. Ive been holding a temur battlerage all the game but have no threat. I draw and cast a streetwraith which is the first creature ive had, and allows me to keep up as a blocker while at 2 life. I finally draw a tarmogoyf and start swinging and end up killing him with temurbattlerage. G2He mulls to 6, and I keep a strong 7 filled with liliana last hope, kozileks return, push, goyf, engineered explosives and 2 lands. Needless to say I blow him out with no trouble.
R3 U/W Control 2-1
G1 I feel this is my worst matchup, I always have a hard time winning this matchup with so much land disruption. I keep a 7 filled with 3 discards but no immediate threat. I bring myself down to a low life total but cant find a treat in time. We get to a point where I have to drop a whiff fatal push on his gideon just to turn on delirium and traverse for a shadow, but he has the path and I was removed from my both blue sources with his field of ruins. G2 I keep a 7 with a 2 treats and disruption, I see his rest in peace and discard it turn 1. we trade resources a bit. I stick a 4/4 shadow plays and he plays a timely reinforcements to try and chump block me for days, luckily I had been holding on to a golgari charm which I was intending to use on an azcanta, detention sphere or regenerate from a supreme veredict, but the -1/-1 mode allowed me to clear his tokens and keep putting pressure. We reach a point where I have 2 shadows, a grim flayer and a liliana the last hope on board which is ticking up. Hes at 4 life and I know he has a settle the wreckage, a cryptic command and celestial purge. I start attacking with a single creature baiting out his removals 1 by 1 until he has to use the settle the wreckage to clear a single shadow. Im left with a single deathshadow on board and he topdecks a detentionsphere, but I have the abrupt decay to destroy it and win. G3 I dont remember much from this game but he mulls to 6 and I keep a 7 with 2 tarmos, a shadow, thoughtseize, temurbattlerage and lands. I land a T2 tarmo vs his T3 gideon which prevents damage, I land the second tarmo and start to pressure his gideon. He plays a timely reinforcements and starts to chump block my tarmos. His gideon is up to 8 loyalty. And he has destroyed all my blue sources. I land a 4/4 shadow and eventually kill his gideon. He is forced to play a spreading seas just to draw gas but this turns on my counter. I counter his removal he doesnt draw a sweeper in time and temur battlerage gives me the win.
Highlights: U/W match is incredibly hard and we need to keep hand with treats plus discard if we want a chance. In the past I used to side out temur battlerage red and bring in white with lingering souls but Ive come to find that souls is too slow and doesnt put enough pressure for U/W. They have also gotten rid of my only white source just as I cant my first souls, leaving me with dead souls in hand. By leaving red and TBR in I can leave my red mana in my deck and only fetch for it when I need to play TBR. Golgari charm is a versatile card with many application in this matchup. Our mana base is weak against their many spreading seas and fields of ruins. Im open to any extra ideas and tips approaching this matchup.
I have followed the Jund Em In's advices:
18 lands, cut the Whispers,splash blue for Stubborn Denial include TBR (only one because I keep the Ghor-Clan), Dismember and complete the playset of FP.
Unfortunately, in order to have space I was forced to eliminate the Faithless Looting that was (IMHO) a great card for fix and delirium
When I was playing 4c DS I had certain mana problems and it was quite difficult for me to cast Snapcaster Mage with extra mana for the flashback spell. that is because I'm not including the Snapcaster and the reason to include manamorphose [but actually I'm not a fan of this card] (ALTERNATIVE 2 would be to change the Manamorphoses by Faithless Looting)only one land give me BLUE mana, but only use blue for the Denials and one sideboard card (Delay)
15 CREATURES
4 DS
4 Tarmo
4 Street Wraith
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
1 Grim Flayer
PW 1 Liliana of the Veil
RAMP 1 Manamorphose
REMOVAL 4 FP
2 Tarfire
1 Dismemeber
DISCARD 4 Toughtseize
4 IK
TUTOR 4 U Traverse
wincon 1 Temur BR
counter 2 Stubborn Denial
artif. 4 Mishra Bouble
TOTAL 60
SIDE
1 Delay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Back to Nature
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
how do you see this list?
about the SB: I removed the Ancient Grudge because it's not too good for delirium even being great vs. Affinity. do you think Rain of Gore could be an option to consider (against Martyr Life and infinite live combos)? Not very sure about the singleton Delay...
I have followed the Jund Em In's advices:
18 lands, cut the Whispers,splash blue for Stubborn Denial include TBR (only one because I keep the Ghor-Clan), Dismember and complete the playset of FP.
Unfortunately, in order to have space I was forced to eliminate the Faithless Looting that was (IMHO) a great card for fix and delirium
When I was playing 4c DS I had certain mana problems and it was quite difficult for me to cast Snapcaster Mage with extra mana for the flashback spell. that is because I'm not including the Snapcaster and the reason to include manamorphose [but actually I'm not a fan of this card] (ALTERNATIVE 2 would be to change the Manamorphoses by Faithless Looting)only one land give me BLUE mana, but only use blue for the Denials and one sideboard card (Delay)
15 CREATURES
4 DS
4 Tarmo
4 Street Wraith
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
1 Grim Flayer
PW 1 Liliana of the Veil
RAMP 1 Manamorphose
REMOVAL 4 FP
2 Tarfire
1 Dismemeber
DISCARD 4 Toughtseize
4 IK
TUTOR 4 U Traverse
wincon 1 Temur BR
counter 2 Stubborn Denial
artif. 4 Mishra Bouble
TOTAL 60
SIDE
1 Delay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Back to Nature
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
how do you see this list?
about the SB: I removed the Ancient Grudge because it's not too good for delirium even being great vs. Affinity. do you think Rain of Gore could be an option to consider (against Martyr Life and infinite live combos)? Not very sure about the singleton Delay...
Looks a lot more similar to stock DS lists that have put of good results. I have a few questions/suggestions for you:
1. How has Ghor clan rampager been in your testing? Most people have cut it completely for the second temur battlerage. (Im not exaggerating on how good this card is)
2. The singleton delay could be changed for a third stubborn denial but thats up to you, Denial is a great card and some have had success with it.
3. How was faithless looting in your testing? Some people here have run it with mixed results.
4. Im not a fan of manamorphose either but several players swear by it, would be nice to get some of their input.
5. About the manabase you said you only have 1 blue source. You can remove the basic forest and add a breeding pool. Most 4C lists just run a basic swamp. It will give you better mana fixing but will make you weaker vs path, ghost quarter and fiend of ruin. (our deck is already weak against those anyways)
6. Mosts people dont run snapcaster, those who do run 1 tops, but those who run it run 2 blue shock lands: Breeding pool and watery grave. While you only have a single blue source I wouldnt run snapcaster either.
7. Just noticed you have abrupt decays off the side, would you consider running them in the main? They work as a catch all removal and would be your only answers against artifacts/enchantments.
8. How do you feel about tarfire? Does it put in enough work vs say lightning bolt? I personally dont like tarfire but if it works in your meta then it works.
9. You might want a couple of sweepers in the side, against go wide decks. ( I cant comment much on the side because thats very meta dependant.)
10. Overall you made positive changes to the deck and definitely let us know how it goes.
Heres my list for reference, it might give you some ideas, and feel free to offer any comments or criticism.
I'm still on 4x Manamorphose and I like it for the most part. It more or less works as advertised, even if it's a bit awkward at times (for example, when you're stuck on 1 land). Here are my current issues/concerns with the deck:
1. 12 free cantrips means you have to keep a lot of highly speculative 5s and 6s. I have lost many games due to hands just not panning out after cantripping a few times.
2. The deck is highly subject to variance. I find the perfect number of lands to draw in a game is 3, but it's not uncommon to be stuck on 1 for a while, or to flood out.
3. In line with the above consistency issues, I've found the "wrong half issue" to be the death knell for this deck. It's very easy to draw the wrong type of interaction in a given matchup.
4. I so far believe the deck could benefit from another threat (in addition to 4x Shadow/Goyf). While most would play Grim Flayer for this purpose, I wonder if a singleton Gurmag Angler could be justified.
All that being said, I think a tool like Faithless Looting could be a valuable addition to the deck, at least in theory. Unfortunately, there's just no room for such an effect in Spooly's 4x Manamorphose list, and the card disadvantage is a real problem without being able to effectively utilize the graveyard beyond Delirium. I also suspect that I would want to run 18 lands with Faithless Looting, since I both want to hit my second/third land more consistently, but also want to have something to pitch to Looting later in the game.
That's all I've got. The nut draws this deck produces sure are nutty though.
Edit: my tertiary points of uncertainty are the 2 basics, and my desire to pack a 3rd Stubborn Denial in the main.
I'm still on 4x Manamorphose and I like it for the most part. It more or less works as advertised, even if it's a bit awkward at times (for example, when you're stuck on 1 land). Here are my current issues/concerns with the deck:
1. 12 free cantrips means you have to keep a lot of highly speculative 5s and 6s. I have lost many games due to hands just not panning out after cantripping a few times.
2. The deck is highly subject to variance. I find the perfect number of lands to draw in a game is 3, but it's not uncommon to be stuck on 1 for a while, or to flood out.
3. In line with the above consistency issues, I've found the "wrong half issue" to be the death knell for this deck. It's very easy to draw the wrong type of interaction in a given matchup.
4. I so far believe the deck could benefit from another threat (in addition to 4x Shadow/Goyf). While most would play Grim Flayer for this purpose, I wonder if a singleton Gurmag Angler could be justified.
All that being said, I think a tool like Faithless Looting could be a valuable addition to the deck, at least in theory. Unfortunately, there's just no room for such an effect in Spooly's 4x Manamorphose list, and the card disadvantage is a real problem without being able to effectively utilize the graveyard beyond Delirium. I also suspect that I would want to run 18 lands with Faithless Looting, since I both want to hit my second/third land more consistently, but also want to have something to pitch to Looting later in the game.
That's all I've got. The nut draws this deck produces sure are nutty though.
Edit: my tertiary points of uncertainty are the 2 basics, and my desire to pack a 3rd Stubborn Denial in the main.
I ended up dropping the manamorphose. whilst theoretically a free cantrip I found I ran into lots of issues when to fire it off and make use of it's 'free' factor. Often times you manamorphose for GB and then draw another card you can't cast which feels bad (as then manamorphose just acted like a 2 mana bauble). Also with so many Thalia's around manamorphose feel really bad.
I tested MM with bloodmoons in the board but that also felt like a non-bo at times since it affects your ability to lose life for shadow.
Also found there was a tension between cutting lands for MM (since in theory a cantrip) but also created more mulligans because you have a one land 1-2 manamorphose hands
2) & 3) definitely agree on the variance front, not sure the best way to solve this, this deck definitely needs a way to draw through clunkiness
4) not sure gurmag gets us there given it affects your delirium/goyfs. I was running a Jund version with no splash and found I boarded out flayer most of the time, although I acknowledge my sideboarding may not be optimum. Potentially running snapcaster would be good so you can 'tutor' for a removal/discard spell, albeit in a mana intensive way.
I've been trying to find a way to reduce the reliance on graveyard as RIP or relic essentially creates 8 dead draws in the deck but am abit stumped on this currently.
Also on sideboard what are people thoughts between Grafdiggers vs Nihil spellbomb? I like grafdiggers as it helps more vs hollow one, dredge, company decks but it does disable ancient grudge (which is also good against H1) but find that at times Grafdiggers doesn't cut it against value decks with E-wit or combo like KCI nor does it help with the mirror
I'm still on 4x Manamorphose and I like it for the most part. It more or less works as advertised, even if it's a bit awkward at times (for example, when you're stuck on 1 land). Here are my current issues/concerns with the deck:
1. 12 free cantrips means you have to keep a lot of highly speculative 5s and 6s. I have lost many games due to hands just not panning out after cantripping a few times.
2. The deck is highly subject to variance. I find the perfect number of lands to draw in a game is 3, but it's not uncommon to be stuck on 1 for a while, or to flood out.
3. In line with the above consistency issues, I've found the "wrong half issue" to be the death knell for this deck. It's very easy to draw the wrong type of interaction in a given matchup.
4. I so far believe the deck could benefit from another threat (in addition to 4x Shadow/Goyf). While most would play Grim Flayer for this purpose, I wonder if a singleton Gurmag Angler could be justified.
All that being said, I think a tool like Faithless Looting could be a valuable addition to the deck, at least in theory. Unfortunately, there's just no room for such an effect in Spooly's 4x Manamorphose list, and the card disadvantage is a real problem without being able to effectively utilize the graveyard beyond Delirium. I also suspect that I would want to run 18 lands with Faithless Looting, since I both want to hit my second/third land more consistently, but also want to have something to pitch to Looting later in the game.
That's all I've got. The nut draws this deck produces sure are nutty though.
Edit: my tertiary points of uncertainty are the 2 basics, and my desire to pack a 3rd Stubborn Denial in the main.
I ended up dropping the manamorphose. whilst theoretically a free cantrip I found I ran into lots of issues when to fire it off and make use of it's 'free' factor. Often times you manamorphose for GB and then draw another card you can't cast which feels bad (as then manamorphose just acted like a 2 mana bauble). Also with so many Thalia's around manamorphose feel really bad.
I tested MM with bloodmoons in the board but that also felt like a non-bo at times since it affects your ability to lose life for shadow.
Also found there was a tension between cutting lands for MM (since in theory a cantrip) but also created more mulligans because you have a one land 1-2 manamorphose hands
2) & 3) definitely agree on the variance front, not sure the best way to solve this, this deck definitely needs a way to draw through clunkiness
4) not sure gurmag gets us there given it affects your delirium/goyfs. I was running a Jund version with no splash and found I boarded out flayer most of the time, although I acknowledge my sideboarding may not be optimum. Potentially running snapcaster would be good so you can 'tutor' for a removal/discard spell, albeit in a mana intensive way.
I've been trying to find a way to reduce the reliance on graveyard as RIP or relic essentially creates 8 dead draws in the deck but am abit stumped on this currently.
Also on sideboard what are people thoughts between Grafdiggers vs Nihil spellbomb? I like grafdiggers as it helps more vs hollow one, dredge, company decks but it does disable ancient grudge (which is also good against H1) but find that at times Grafdiggers doesn't cut it against value decks with E-wit or combo like KCI nor does it help with the mirror
I very much prefer nihil spellbomb for the following reasons:
1. Grows the goyf
2. Enables delirium
3. The draw off it can be significant
4. Doesnt turn off our own lingering souls (if youre on white splash)
5. Grafdigger can be removed, where as Nihil can be held in hand until you want to deploy and crack it for just a single mana (given that you surrender the draw)
6. Grafdigger acts more like a floodgate, if it gets removed youre in trouble. Nihil just gets rid of any trouble from the start.
7. For grafdigger to be good you need to draw it early on (preemptively), while nihil is good at any stage of the game.
Answering to the few questions/suggestions from Jund Em In:
1. How has Ghor clan rampager been in your testing? Not bad. It can be traversed, but I will cut it for temur battle rage
3. How was faithless looting in your testing? Very good. I would like to keep two in the main. Card selection + Enabler for Delirium and probably (never try W splash) can work well with Lingering souls
4. Im not a fan of manamorphose either but several players swear by it, would be nice to get some of their input.
Not very good for me. In any case, for every MM I must cut one bubble.
5. Sure. I will remove the basic forest and add a breeding pool.
6. No snaps.
7. Yes.I love to have 2 x Abrupt Decayin the main. Just looking for space for them.
8. How do you feel about tarfire? Of course I prefer Bolt. But since I play in an "ALL IN FOR DELIRIUM" mode I must include Tarfire.
9. sweepers in the side... Not sure. Problem of EE is if I cast it with 1 or 2 counters, it will kill my creatures.
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Death's Shadow
1 Grim Flayer
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
4 Fatal Push
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Temur Battle Rage
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Temur Battle Rage
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ceremonious Rejection
3 Collective Brutality
1 Damping Sphere
1 Mana Leak
2 Radiant Flames
2 Surgical Extraction
As a big fan of grixis and blue card I liked a lot this list but it raised a few questions:
- Jace seems wierd in the main deck, and slow. Did some of you test him out?
- This basic island feels off, as there are very few blue cards in the main deck. I've seen a lot of different basic land choices, but most lists seem to opt for either only the basic swamp or basic swamp + basic forest. What do you think is the best for a GBur manabase?
- I've also seen a list on mtgtop8 using thought scour. Blue cantrip help a lot the consistency in grixis, and I've seen talk of faithless looting in this thread. What is your opinion on some number of blue cantrips (opt/serum/thought scour?). They add some air to the deck but also help fix draws, without getting too much into red with looting.
- Last question: I've seen a lot of lists without Kcommand in the 75. Isn't this card worth playing? Is it too slow?
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Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show Duel Commander:Kess High Tide Vintage Big blue(MTGO)
I'm still on 4x Manamorphose and I like it for the most part. It more or less works as advertised, even if it's a bit awkward at times (for example, when you're stuck on 1 land). Here are my current issues/concerns with the deck:
1. 12 free cantrips means you have to keep a lot of highly speculative 5s and 6s. I have lost many games due to hands just not panning out after cantripping a few times.
2. The deck is highly subject to variance. I find the perfect number of lands to draw in a game is 3, but it's not uncommon to be stuck on 1 for a while, or to flood out.
3. In line with the above consistency issues, I've found the "wrong half issue" to be the death knell for this deck. It's very easy to draw the wrong type of interaction in a given matchup.
4. I so far believe the deck could benefit from another threat (in addition to 4x Shadow/Goyf). While most would play Grim Flayer for this purpose, I wonder if a singleton Gurmag Angler could be justified.
All that being said, I think a tool like Faithless Looting could be a valuable addition to the deck, at least in theory. Unfortunately, there's just no room for such an effect in Spooly's 4x Manamorphose list, and the card disadvantage is a real problem without being able to effectively utilize the graveyard beyond Delirium. I also suspect that I would want to run 18 lands with Faithless Looting, since I both want to hit my second/third land more consistently, but also want to have something to pitch to Looting later in the game.
That's all I've got. The nut draws this deck produces sure are nutty though.
Edit: my tertiary points of uncertainty are the 2 basics, and my desire to pack a 3rd Stubborn Denial in the main.
I ended up dropping the manamorphose. whilst theoretically a free cantrip I found I ran into lots of issues when to fire it off and make use of it's 'free' factor. Often times you manamorphose for GB and then draw another card you can't cast which feels bad (as then manamorphose just acted like a 2 mana bauble). Also with so many Thalia's around manamorphose feel really bad.
I tested MM with bloodmoons in the board but that also felt like a non-bo at times since it affects your ability to lose life for shadow.
Also found there was a tension between cutting lands for MM (since in theory a cantrip) but also created more mulligans because you have a one land 1-2 manamorphose hands
2) & 3) definitely agree on the variance front, not sure the best way to solve this, this deck definitely needs a way to draw through clunkiness
4) not sure gurmag gets us there given it affects your delirium/goyfs. I was running a Jund version with no splash and found I boarded out flayer most of the time, although I acknowledge my sideboarding may not be optimum. Potentially running snapcaster would be good so you can 'tutor' for a removal/discard spell, albeit in a mana intensive way.
I've been trying to find a way to reduce the reliance on graveyard as RIP or relic essentially creates 8 dead draws in the deck but am abit stumped on this currently.
Also on sideboard what are people thoughts between Grafdiggers vs Nihil spellbomb? I like grafdiggers as it helps more vs hollow one, dredge, company decks but it does disable ancient grudge (which is also good against H1) but find that at times Grafdiggers doesn't cut it against value decks with E-wit or combo like KCI nor does it help with the mirror
I very much prefer nihil spellbomb for the following reasons:
1. Grows the goyf
2. Enables delirium
3. The draw off it can be significant
4. Doesnt turn off our own lingering souls (if youre on white splash)
5. Grafdigger can be removed, where as Nihil can be held in hand until you want to deploy and crack it for just a single mana (given that you surrender the draw)
6. Grafdigger acts more like a floodgate, if it gets removed youre in trouble. Nihil just gets rid of any trouble from the start.
7. For grafdigger to be good you need to draw it early on (preemptively), while nihil is good at any stage of the game.
You make some really good points for spellbomb. I probably overrate the fact that grafdiggers sticks around and feels like a more permanent answer since it is relatively easy to remove and can't be cracked in response
That Breeding Pool should really be a Stomping Ground. You play 2 blue cards vs 5 red cards in your 75, no idea why you would want two blue sources for that configuration.
The main reason to want 2 blue sources before humans blew up was because of Worldbreaker out of Tron, and maybe also Ponza - you wanted to be able to counter haymakers in those matchups even if you got a blue source blown up. (The other reason was if you played Snapcaster Mage, but I don't think that's very good).
Right now, this just doesn't seem like a major consideration.
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Blood Crypt
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathshadow
1 Grim Flayer
30 Spells
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Faithless Looting
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Manamorphose
2 Fatal Push
2 Tarfire
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
2 Temur Battle Rage
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Well, that's a given.. But if you're going to play it anyway I think Stubs are absolutely necessary. If you choose to cut blue and go for straight Jund colors, why not just play Jund?
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I'm new to this forum.
I would like comment the list I'm preparing for a tournament, to ask for your opinions:
16 LANDS
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Grounds
1 Blood Crypt
1 Forest
1 Swamp
14 CREATURES
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Death Shadow
1 Grim Flayer
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
2 PW
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana False Hope
28 SPELLS
4 Toughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Whispers of Emrakul
4 U Traverse
4 Mishra Bouble
3 Fatal Push
3 Tarfire
2 Faithless Looting
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Terminate
60 MAIN
15 SIDEBOARD
2 Back to Nature
3 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pithing Needle
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Spellskite
1 Topor Orb
2 Ancient Grudge
I played DS jund before but I changed to 4C DS and I'm returning to DS Jund but I have cut the L. Bolts (by Tarfire) in order to fuel Delirium; because in my experience I'm doing much damage with the Tarmos than with the Shadows normally reserved for final turns, specially if I'm playing versus aggro decks where I must be aware of my life count to avoid the disaster.
Sideboard:
-CB is one of my favourite cards.
I'm trying to find answers when I play versus mana deny startegies (Blood Moon or land destruction) even considening that my main plan is not reactive but linear and fast.
What do you modify?
Thank you in advance
1. You should up your land count, 18 lands is the sweet spot, so it might be good to add 2 more fetchlands.
2. Why arent you running any blue? It costs nothing to splash a watery grave and run stubborn denial, in fact its almost required if you want to beat burn, combo and control.
3. Whispers of emrakul isnt too good, you should replace 2 of those for 2 inquisition of kozilek. Generally our turn 2 should be spend deploying a threat or more disruption. A random discard isnt very much disruptive and by the time you hit delirium you probably want to be traversing, not discarding your opponent.
4. You need to run 2 temur battle rage in the main deck, this is a necessary card and everyone will tell you to run it. Its a card that allows us to win against bad matchups or even win out of nowhere.
5. Terminate can be too mana intensive, you wont always be fetching for red mana, id go up on the fourth push (good in this human meta) and perhaps a dismember would be better in place of the other terminate, less mana intensive and can speed up you shadow.
6. You should look into splashing a 4th colour at least (Blue or white). This deck can easily run 4 colours mainboard, with the 5th colour as a splash in the sideboard. Usually the sideboard color is white with lingering souls to hedge against midrange decks.
R1 Humans 2-0
G1 He mulls to 5 and I keep a decent hand with tarmogoyf and disruption. I sandbag my removal until my opponent tries to flicker a thalia´s lieutenant with resto angel. I push the liutenant and then fetch and push the resto. I overpower him with tarmogoyf.
G2 He mulls to 6, I keep a hand full of gas with lots of disruption and lingering souls. We grind and my opponent hits 29 life thanks to an auriok champion I cant remove. while im at 9 life. Lingering souls tokens keep him from attacking. My only large threat is a 5/6 tarmogofy which gets copied by a phantasmal image. I attack and play a temur battle rage on his block to take care of the tarmo copy. Eventually Im down to 2 and I draw my sided radiant flames and sweep for 4 colours thanks to thalia´s tax. I wipe his board and take over the game.
R2 Vizier Elves 2-0
G1This has always felt like a very easy matchup. G1 is a grindfest. Hes on the play. I keep a hand with dismember, thoughtseize, 2 baubles and other disuption but no threat. Im down to than 8 life in the first 2 turns due to, fetches, thoughtseize and a dismember I was forced to play on a mana dork. He keeps playing creatures and cracking horizon canopies to refill his hand while I keep minusing a LoTV, pushing and abrupt decaying his creatures. We are both topdecking with empty fields at this point. Ive been holding a temur battlerage all the game but have no threat. I draw and cast a streetwraith which is the first creature ive had, and allows me to keep up as a blocker while at 2 life. I finally draw a tarmogoyf and start swinging and end up killing him with temurbattlerage.
G2He mulls to 6, and I keep a strong 7 filled with liliana last hope, kozileks return, push, goyf, engineered explosives and 2 lands. Needless to say I blow him out with no trouble.
R3 U/W Control 2-1
G1 I feel this is my worst matchup, I always have a hard time winning this matchup with so much land disruption. I keep a 7 filled with 3 discards but no immediate threat. I bring myself down to a low life total but cant find a treat in time. We get to a point where I have to drop a whiff fatal push on his gideon just to turn on delirium and traverse for a shadow, but he has the path and I was removed from my both blue sources with his field of ruins.
G2 I keep a 7 with a 2 treats and disruption, I see his rest in peace and discard it turn 1. we trade resources a bit. I stick a 4/4 shadow plays and he plays a timely reinforcements to try and chump block me for days, luckily I had been holding on to a golgari charm which I was intending to use on an azcanta, detention sphere or regenerate from a supreme veredict, but the -1/-1 mode allowed me to clear his tokens and keep putting pressure. We reach a point where I have 2 shadows, a grim flayer and a liliana the last hope on board which is ticking up. Hes at 4 life and I know he has a settle the wreckage, a cryptic command and celestial purge. I start attacking with a single creature baiting out his removals 1 by 1 until he has to use the settle the wreckage to clear a single shadow. Im left with a single deathshadow on board and he topdecks a detentionsphere, but I have the abrupt decay to destroy it and win.
G3 I dont remember much from this game but he mulls to 6 and I keep a 7 with 2 tarmos, a shadow, thoughtseize, temurbattlerage and lands. I land a T2 tarmo vs his T3 gideon which prevents damage, I land the second tarmo and start to pressure his gideon. He plays a timely reinforcements and starts to chump block my tarmos. His gideon is up to 8 loyalty. And he has destroyed all my blue sources. I land a 4/4 shadow and eventually kill his gideon. He is forced to play a spreading seas just to draw gas but this turns on my counter. I counter his removal he doesnt draw a sweeper in time and temur battlerage gives me the win.
Highlights: U/W match is incredibly hard and we need to keep hand with treats plus discard if we want a chance. In the past I used to side out temur battlerage red and bring in white with lingering souls but Ive come to find that souls is too slow and doesnt put enough pressure for U/W. They have also gotten rid of my only white source just as I cant my first souls, leaving me with dead souls in hand. By leaving red and TBR in I can leave my red mana in my deck and only fetch for it when I need to play TBR. Golgari charm is a versatile card with many application in this matchup. Our mana base is weak against their many spreading seas and fields of ruins. Im open to any extra ideas and tips approaching this matchup.
18 lands, cut the Whispers,splash blue for Stubborn Denial include TBR (only one because I keep the Ghor-Clan), Dismember and complete the playset of FP.
Unfortunately, in order to have space I was forced to eliminate the Faithless Looting that was (IMHO) a great card for fix and delirium
When I was playing 4c DS I had certain mana problems and it was quite difficult for me to cast Snapcaster Mage with extra mana for the flashback spell. that is because I'm not including the Snapcaster and the reason to include manamorphose [but actually I'm not a fan of this card] (ALTERNATIVE 2 would be to change the Manamorphoses by Faithless Looting)only one land give me BLUE mana, but only use blue for the Denials and one sideboard card (Delay)
11 FETCH
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
5 SHOKLANDS
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Watery Grave
2 BASICS
1 Swamp
1 Forest
15 CREATURES
4 DS
4 Tarmo
4 Street Wraith
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
1 Grim Flayer
PW 1 Liliana of the Veil
RAMP 1 Manamorphose
REMOVAL 4 FP
2 Tarfire
1 Dismemeber
DISCARD 4 Toughtseize
4 IK
TUTOR 4 U Traverse
wincon 1 Temur BR
counter 2 Stubborn Denial
artif. 4 Mishra Bouble
TOTAL 60
SIDE
1 Delay
2 Collective Brutality
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Back to Nature
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
how do you see this list?
about the SB: I removed the Ancient Grudge because it's not too good for delirium even being great vs. Affinity. do you think Rain of Gore could be an option to consider (against Martyr Life and infinite live combos)? Not very sure about the singleton Delay...
Looks a lot more similar to stock DS lists that have put of good results. I have a few questions/suggestions for you:
1. How has Ghor clan rampager been in your testing? Most people have cut it completely for the second temur battlerage. (Im not exaggerating on how good this card is)
2. The singleton delay could be changed for a third stubborn denial but thats up to you, Denial is a great card and some have had success with it.
3. How was faithless looting in your testing? Some people here have run it with mixed results.
4. Im not a fan of manamorphose either but several players swear by it, would be nice to get some of their input.
5. About the manabase you said you only have 1 blue source. You can remove the basic forest and add a breeding pool. Most 4C lists just run a basic swamp. It will give you better mana fixing but will make you weaker vs path, ghost quarter and fiend of ruin. (our deck is already weak against those anyways)
6. Mosts people dont run snapcaster, those who do run 1 tops, but those who run it run 2 blue shock lands: Breeding pool and watery grave. While you only have a single blue source I wouldnt run snapcaster either.
7. Just noticed you have abrupt decays off the side, would you consider running them in the main? They work as a catch all removal and would be your only answers against artifacts/enchantments.
8. How do you feel about tarfire? Does it put in enough work vs say lightning bolt? I personally dont like tarfire but if it works in your meta then it works.
9. You might want a couple of sweepers in the side, against go wide decks. ( I cant comment much on the side because thats very meta dependant.)
10. Overall you made positive changes to the deck and definitely let us know how it goes.
Heres my list for reference, it might give you some ideas, and feel free to offer any comments or criticism.
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Grim Flayer
4 Street Wraith
4 Death's Shadow
Land
1 Breeding Pool
1 Swamp
1 Blood Crypt
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Mishra's Bauble
Instant
1 Dismember
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Temur Battle Rage
4 Fatal Push
Sorcery
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Planeswalker
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Godless Shrine
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Abrade
1 Golgari Charm
1 Radiant Flames
2 Collective Brutality
3 Lingering Souls
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
1. 12 free cantrips means you have to keep a lot of highly speculative 5s and 6s. I have lost many games due to hands just not panning out after cantripping a few times.
2. The deck is highly subject to variance. I find the perfect number of lands to draw in a game is 3, but it's not uncommon to be stuck on 1 for a while, or to flood out.
3. In line with the above consistency issues, I've found the "wrong half issue" to be the death knell for this deck. It's very easy to draw the wrong type of interaction in a given matchup.
4. I so far believe the deck could benefit from another threat (in addition to 4x Shadow/Goyf). While most would play Grim Flayer for this purpose, I wonder if a singleton Gurmag Angler could be justified.
All that being said, I think a tool like Faithless Looting could be a valuable addition to the deck, at least in theory. Unfortunately, there's just no room for such an effect in Spooly's 4x Manamorphose list, and the card disadvantage is a real problem without being able to effectively utilize the graveyard beyond Delirium. I also suspect that I would want to run 18 lands with Faithless Looting, since I both want to hit my second/third land more consistently, but also want to have something to pitch to Looting later in the game.
That's all I've got. The nut draws this deck produces sure are nutty though.
Edit: my tertiary points of uncertainty are the 2 basics, and my desire to pack a 3rd Stubborn Denial in the main.
I ended up dropping the manamorphose. whilst theoretically a free cantrip I found I ran into lots of issues when to fire it off and make use of it's 'free' factor. Often times you manamorphose for GB and then draw another card you can't cast which feels bad (as then manamorphose just acted like a 2 mana bauble). Also with so many Thalia's around manamorphose feel really bad.
I tested MM with bloodmoons in the board but that also felt like a non-bo at times since it affects your ability to lose life for shadow.
Also found there was a tension between cutting lands for MM (since in theory a cantrip) but also created more mulligans because you have a one land 1-2 manamorphose hands
2) & 3) definitely agree on the variance front, not sure the best way to solve this, this deck definitely needs a way to draw through clunkiness
4) not sure gurmag gets us there given it affects your delirium/goyfs. I was running a Jund version with no splash and found I boarded out flayer most of the time, although I acknowledge my sideboarding may not be optimum. Potentially running snapcaster would be good so you can 'tutor' for a removal/discard spell, albeit in a mana intensive way.
I've been trying to find a way to reduce the reliance on graveyard as RIP or relic essentially creates 8 dead draws in the deck but am abit stumped on this currently.
Also on sideboard what are people thoughts between Grafdiggers vs Nihil spellbomb? I like grafdiggers as it helps more vs hollow one, dredge, company decks but it does disable ancient grudge (which is also good against H1) but find that at times Grafdiggers doesn't cut it against value decks with E-wit or combo like KCI nor does it help with the mirror
I very much prefer nihil spellbomb for the following reasons:
1. Grows the goyf
2. Enables delirium
3. The draw off it can be significant
4. Doesnt turn off our own lingering souls (if youre on white splash)
5. Grafdigger can be removed, where as Nihil can be held in hand until you want to deploy and crack it for just a single mana (given that you surrender the draw)
6. Grafdigger acts more like a floodgate, if it gets removed youre in trouble. Nihil just gets rid of any trouble from the start.
7. For grafdigger to be good you need to draw it early on (preemptively), while nihil is good at any stage of the game.
1. How has Ghor clan rampager been in your testing? Not bad. It can be traversed, but I will cut it for temur battle rage
3. How was faithless looting in your testing? Very good. I would like to keep two in the main. Card selection + Enabler for Delirium and probably (never try W splash) can work well with Lingering souls
4. Im not a fan of manamorphose either but several players swear by it, would be nice to get some of their input.
Not very good for me. In any case, for every MM I must cut one bubble.
5. Sure. I will remove the basic forest and add a breeding pool.
6. No snaps.
7. Yes.I love to have 2 x Abrupt Decayin the main. Just looking for space for them.
8. How do you feel about tarfire? Of course I prefer Bolt. But since I play in an "ALL IN FOR DELIRIUM" mode I must include Tarfire.
9. sweepers in the side... Not sure. Problem of EE is if I cast it with 1 or 2 counters, it will kill my creatures.
Thank you very much for your advices.
I've been looking at various lists and the discussion in this thread which has been helpful. I found this quite unusual list in yesterday's 5-0 decklists: https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-modern-constructed-league-2018-06-12
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Death's Shadow
1 Grim Flayer
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
4 Fatal Push
3 Stubborn Denial
2 Temur Battle Rage
4 Mishra's Bauble
1 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Breeding Pool
1 Island
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Temur Battle Rage
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Ceremonious Rejection
3 Collective Brutality
1 Damping Sphere
1 Mana Leak
2 Radiant Flames
2 Surgical Extraction
As a big fan of grixis and blue card I liked a lot this list but it raised a few questions:
- Jace seems wierd in the main deck, and slow. Did some of you test him out?
- This basic island feels off, as there are very few blue cards in the main deck. I've seen a lot of different basic land choices, but most lists seem to opt for either only the basic swamp or basic swamp + basic forest. What do you think is the best for a GBur manabase?
- I've also seen a list on mtgtop8 using thought scour. Blue cantrip help a lot the consistency in grixis, and I've seen talk of faithless looting in this thread. What is your opinion on some number of blue cantrips (opt/serum/thought scour?). They add some air to the deck but also help fix draws, without getting too much into red with looting.
- Last question: I've seen a lot of lists without Kcommand in the 75. Isn't this card worth playing? Is it too slow?
Currently Playing:
Modern
Legacy:
Duel Commander:
Vintage
You make some really good points for spellbomb. I probably overrate the fact that grafdiggers sticks around and feels like a more permanent answer since it is relatively easy to remove and can't be cracked in response
18 LANDS
1 1 Blood Crypt
4 4 Bloodstained Mire
1 1 Breeding Pool
1 1 Watery Grave
2 2 Overgrown Tomb
4 4 Polluted Delta
1 1 Swamp
4 4 Verdant Catacombs
13 CREATURES
1 1 Grim Flayer
4 4 Death's Shadow
4 4 Street Wraith
4 4 Tarmogoyf
28 SPELLS
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Tarfire
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Temur Battle Rage
1 Faithless Looting
2 Stubborn Denial
1 PW
1 Liliana of the Veil
SIDEBOARD
1 Fatal Push
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Godless Shrine
3 Lingering Souls
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Back to nature
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Right now, this just doesn't seem like a major consideration.