What is Olivia Voldaren for? Is she more a way to deal with tokens or a way to go over the top of the eldrazi deck and steal their stuff?
Yes...?
Olivia dominates creature matchups of any flavor. She's good at pinging x/1's and she can get bigger than the other guy's dudes and/or threaten to steal if the game is grinding on. The steal is so mana-intensive that I've rarely ever used it in Modern, but it isn't irrelevant. It's much more common to just grow her to 6/6+ and wall Smashers or anglers. With her evasion she also closes quickly when you're ready to turn the corner.
I run her out of board and I'll bring her in for Abzan decks or E-tron, primarily.
I've been super interested in trying out Hatto's GB Rock deck--could you explain how the deck is beating E-Tron, it looks scary having to only rely on LOTV, 1 Go for the throat, and 2x Pulses for their threats.
There's also typically 3x Hissing Quagmire in BG builds now too. Most people forget it has DT, similar to forgetting reach on Stirring Wildwood.
Victim of Night works fine in Rock as well. All of the B side-board anti-crature tech is available as well including Damnation.
I really want to try a Traverse Rock list. I could see Shriekmaw or perhaps Big Game Hunter in the mix. Newliana and BGH seems like a hoot.
I have been going back and forth between BG rock and BG with a white splash for stony silence and lingering souls in SB
Thoughtseize, Lilly is often enough disruption to throw them off their game plan. If they manage to get an Eldrazi down push, pulse, go for the throat take care of them. At the same time if I draw into ghost quarter it slows down tron if they are building towards it even though they replace it with a wastes. I often find them time walking themselves with an expedition map rushing to get tron or a temple while they leave my Bob on board with a dismember or balista in hand.
While doing all of this goyf gets bigger than their creatures and our threats + disruption takes game 1
Game 2 Most Etron players over side board and bring in relics and chalice. I always side out my inquisitions and depending on the build I will take out some fatal pushes and actually leave in 1-3 abrupt decays depending on my build. This allows me to ignore the chalice but also destroy it if I need to and also destroy a relic. This really takes them off their game and the Etron deck turns into a clunky mid range deck and they end up stuck with fatties in their hand.
At first I was very surprised that I was dominating but week in and week out of consistently 2-0 them.
Cards that have been most impressive in the matchups are a mix of the following
Goyf-gets huge
Sqooze-gets huge
Bob-often they leave unanswered
Lilly of the Veil-bomb against them
Kalitas-very good against matter reshapers and hangerbacks that they bring in post board
Ghost quarter-its not a bomb but it makes them stumble
Fulminator mage-not a bomb but makes them stumble
Lingering souls-chumps matter reshaper so don't have to kill it and let them gain a card
Stony silence-even if you don't get it early it shuts down balista which is worth it. Also shuts off relic
I know this is a Jund board but the BG cards can be added to Jund to help those matchups
I agree 100%
I think it's good for JUND that E-TRON is the Tron deck of choice ATM.
Thoughts on this Blue Jund list? I took inspiration from the 7th Place list from Tom Bentley at the SCG IQ. I felt like he was on to something splashing blue for snap. I think the mana maybe needs work but I went 4-1 last night with (drew very poorly against GDS) BUT the deck felt REALLY strong against Tron variants and scapeshift after sideboarding.
My sideboard is pretty adjusted to my meta, which mainly consists of UWx Control, GY based decks a la Living End, Affinity, Burn and Elves. In between there are some DS variants and sometimes Tron/Valakut. And due to this, I wanted Kozilek's Return over Damnation, which is better against Affinity/Elves and also decent vs Burn. Anger is basically not needed in my meta atm. I really like Thrun now, as it helps vs blue based Control. It seems that, not only has it risen in popularity in my meta, but online as well, according to Goldfish.
In game one I have a curve of Inquisition>Goyf>Lili I take a Goryo's and doesn't recover from multiple Lili activations.
In game two he keeps a one land hand, and Inquisitions my Surgical Extraction out of my hand. On my turn one I Thoughtseize away a
Faithless Looting to prevent him from digging for more lands. Over the course of three turns he fails to draw into land and gets crushed by
multiple threats.
Match record (1-0)
Round 2: Merfolk
In game one we trade resources for a few turns. At one point I swing all out, but fail to do the math and he kills me on the crackback.
feels bad, but lesson learned.
For game two I draw multiple Dark Confidants and fail to answer all his threats.
Match record (1-1)
Round 3: Junk
We trade answers and threats over the course of several turns. Eventually I stick a Raging Ravine, and end the game.
In the second game he casts Lingering Souls with flashback keeping another copy in his hand. I force him to discard it with Kcommand and then exile
it with Scooze. Afterwards he floods out and I close the game with a flipped Huntmaster.
Match record (2-1)
Round 4: Abzan Counters
In the first game I get overwhelmed by Finks+Gavony.
The second game almost ended the same way but I draw a timely Maelstrom Pulse to kill a pair of pumped up Noble Hierarchs and swing for lethal.
My opponent gets mana screwed and dies to pressure in the third game.
Match record (3-1)
Round 5: Abzan Counters
My opponent mulls to 5, and we have a nongame.
In the second game I kill a few things , but he combos off and kills me with Walking Balista.
I manage to stick a turn two Bob and the card advantage he provided me allowed me to take the match.
Match record (4-1)
Round 6: Merfolk
Kira, Great Glass Spinner, and Master of Waves sucks.
Match record (4-2)
Round 7: Scapeshift
I only win game one due to an error my opponent made. He has a Courser in play revealing a mountain on top. I pass the turn and he draws the mountain,
then proceeds to draw a second card that I did not see. After a judge call he reveals his hand and I got to pick a card from his hand to shuffle back
into his deck. He reveals the mountain he drew, Primeval Titan, and Chandra Torch of Defiance. I took the Prime Time, and then finished him off.
I lose the second game to multiple Valakut triggers.
After a mull I keep a hand of 3x lands, 2x Thoughtseize, and Inquisition. I see Stomping Grounds on top and bottom it. After striping his hand, killing
multiple Chameleon Colossus' and even using Fulminator Mage+Surgical Extraction on Valakut I lose to a resolved Primeval Titan.
Final match record: (4-3)
This was my first PPTQ and my first tournament report so apologies if it's a little vague. I should have wrote down notes between matchs. Will do next
time.
Do you always mull for turn one discard on play and turn one kill spell when on the draw? How low do you mull down to?
Do you keep hands with 3 lands with 2 two drops but without a turn one play?
I'm running 23 lands and I ran 2x Blooming Marsh and 8 Fetches, would 9 fetches be better? because I seem to draw into A LOT of tapped lands
Thank you for asking these questions. Can anyone who is more experienced advise?
I also wonder about how many threats is too few/too many to keep. I think keeping hands with lots of disruption and good mana but no threats are easy to keep but hands with good mana and lots (2+) threats but no disruption are pretty sketchy but not sure if you must mulligan them hoping for the disruption you need in certain matchups. I think that hands with a couple 2 drop creatures, lands and a LOTV can be ok but not ideal with my logic being that LOTV is both a threat and relevant disruption vs most of the field.
It depends on the context. Against an unknown opponent if you have a starting hand with threats and removal, but no discard I would keep. Mulling runs the risk of drawing a worse hand with no guarantee of starting with discard. However if you know what your opponents on, and if it's a combo, synergistic aggro, or a big mana deck it's may be worth mulling to find discard. Unless you already have a piece of hate in hand. Furthermore in some situations I would rather keep hands containing multiple threats with no answers then vice versa. A turn two Goyf or Bob that goes unanswered can end the game quickly. But if you start with no threats you can run out of answers, or worse constantly drawing the wrong answers. Believe me nothing feels worse then drawing Abrupt Decay when you so desperately want it to be Push or Terminate.
So why not discuss this issue with a few example hands: What would be your choices in the following scenarios:
Hand#1: Against Affinity, on the draw:
2x Scavenging Ooze, Lightning Bolt, Liliana of the Veil, Raging Ravine, Verdant Catacombs, Dark Confidant
Hand #2: Against Random Opponent, G1, on the play:
2x Liliana of the Veil, Swamp, Forest, Overgrown Tomb, Thoughtseize, Kolaghan’s Command
Hand #3: Against Tron, G2, on play (so you lost g1):
2x Inquisition of Kozilek, 2x Liliana of the Veil, Verdant Catacombs, Stomping Ground, Lightning Bolt
Hand #4: Against Random opponent, G1, on draw:
Swamp, Bloodstained Mire, Tarmogoyf, 2x Scavenging Ooze, Liliana of the Veil, Maelstrom Pulse
Hand #5: Against Grixis Shadow, on the draw:
Verdant Catacombs, Bloodstained Mire, 2x Inquisition of Kozilek, Scavenging Ooze, Fatal Push, Kolaghan's Command
These are great examples, a lot of nuances to consider.
Mulligan. Ooze and Liliana are mediocre against Affinity, and while Bolt and Bob are good, Raging Ravine makes your opening turns very awkward. If you play Ravine turn 1, you're immediately starting off on the back foot because you're giving Affinity the freedom to do whatever it wants turn 1/2, and then you may need to spend your entire turn 2 just casting a Lightning Bolt. Only using 1/3 of your mana in the first two turns against Affinity is one of the ways to lose to it, and it's too much of a risk that Confidant doesn't draw you enough cards to dig your way out of the hole. A 6 card hand of Goyf, 2 lands, discard, kill spell, Confidant is very achievable and way better.
Keep. This is a bit more tricky, and I would likely mulligan this on the draw because there are a lot of decks that this hand loses to in that case. On the play, you have Thoughtseize to buy you time until you resolve a Liliana, and from there you're looking for a threat. There are some decks where this hand is bad (Affinity, Burn), but it's pretty reasonable against Death's Shadow and other midrange decks. Given that decks like Affinity and Burn are bad game 1's that get significantly better post-board, I wouldn't mulligan this hand to try to beat them.
Mulligan. I will mulligan any 7 card hand against Tron without a 2-drop or some kind of land destruction, because those are the two starting points for beating it.
Keep. Like hand #2, there are some decks that this will struggle against, but it's pretty generally good and doesn't need anything other than a third land to really function.
Keep. A little soft to delve creatures, but has a nice mix of interaction and a threat. Given the number of discard spells flying around in this matchup, I would hesitate to mulligan hands that aren't just blatantly non-functional.
1. Raging Ravine+Double Scooze is far too clunky to keep against Affinity. Bob is liability, and Lili is meh. Would not keep.
2. It's unfortunate to have no turn two play, but the potential to take their turn one play is pretty good. The lack of red mana is annoying, but this hand makes me feel like I'm not in a hurry to find it. Would keep.
3. Having double Inquisition is ok, but not great. Lack of turn two threat is also sub-optimal, however potential turn three Lili can be what swings the game to a possible win. I would keep this.
4. My only problem with this hand is it only has two lands. Other then that it's an easy keep.
5. The weakest part of this hand is it's inability to deal with a resolved delve creature. Still double Inquisition to take opposing answers, and Kcommand to bring Scooze back is not too bad. I would try it.
Hand#1: Against Affinity, on the draw:
2x Scavenging Ooze, Lightning Bolt, Liliana of the Veil, Raging Ravine, Verdant Catacombs, Dark Confidant
Prior to reading the other replies I wanted to keep this because you have a good mix of lands and spells but in hind sight I wasn't taking the matchup that you gave us notice of into enough consideration. Just one bolt is not close to enough interaction to blunt their early game and I agree that ooze is not the blocker we need to keep a hand similar to this one. Against a random opponent I would definitely keep this on the draw but I'm not sure that's right. To be clear I don't value ooze in opening hands and having two is really bad but there are scenarios where the creatures could be fine (e.g. turn 1 ravine turn 2 ooze see if opponent kills it follow up with a confidant later). It's not a great outcome but that's how I'm thinking about it.
Hand #2: Against Random Opponent, G1, on the play:
2x Liliana of the Veil, Swamp, Forest, Overgrown Tomb, Thoughtseize, Kolaghan’s Command
My thought process is that thoughtseize is a good turn one play against almost everything, I've got three lands which I value pretty highly and LOTV is similarly good against the field so I feel drawn to keep even though it's not perfect with no castable removal spells. I'm reluctant to go to six cards when I have the potential to make two good plays in the first three turns of the game.
Hand #3: Against Tron, G2, on play (so you lost g1):
2x Inquisition of Kozilek, 2x Liliana of the Veil, Verdant Catacombs, Stomping Ground, Lightning Bolt
Honestly I want to keep this one too even though it's not applying the right kind of pressure to our nemesis. I'm hoping to nab a stirrings or a map early with the two IOKs (or a rest in peace if they're on GW Tron) and then draw the third land for LOTV - maybe it's good enough. I think that DeFish's argument to mull because there's no two drop creature is very reasonable and I want to agree with him but on my own I would keep it and probably be wrong to do so.
Hand #4: Against Random opponent, G1, on draw:
Swamp, Bloodstained Mire, Tarmogoyf, 2x Scavenging Ooze, Liliana of the Veil, Maelstrom Pulse
I don't like this hand because I dislike fetching so early when I want the third land ASAP with the oozes the LOTV and the pulse all in the opener. I think that I value deck thining more than I should and this impacts my decision to mull this. I would like the hand much more if the basic swamp was any other land. This being said I think it's defensible to keep as we are likely one draw step away from doing things so long as we draw a land or an interactive spell. Once again I think the other responses have convinced me that it's right to keep even if I might not have kept it myself.
Hand #5: Against Grixis Shadow, on the draw:
Verdant Catacombs, Bloodstained Mire, 2x Inquisition of Kozilek, Scavenging Ooze, Fatal Push, Kolaghan's Command
I would keep this hand. It has most of the elements that I want against shadow in the early game and is somewhat resilient to their turn one discard spell they almost always have even after sideboarding (is it just me?). I don't love IOKs against them and I probably would have boarded them out for some card advantage/better answers but they are situationally great against snapcasters/kcommands/shadows so maybe I'm wrong to cut them (for reference I usually good all IOKs and keep my thoughtseizes).
Thanks FlyingDelver for posing these scenerios. I'm curious what others would do.
1. Mull. The only early removal is lightning bolt, confidant and liliana are not good in this match up, and ooze is just too slow and clunky to have 2 in hand.
2. Keep. You have thoughtseize on turn 1 to see what your opponent play and there's a good chance to resolve a turn 3 liliana. It gives you time to dig for threats and red source.
3. Keep. You can discard tron's early pieces like map, Sylvan Scrying or Ancient Stirrings to slow them down, and hope to resolve a turn 3 liliana to suppress the bigger threat in their hand. Give you time to draw some creature or land destruction.
4. Keep. there's a turn 2 threat, and it's likely to draw a third land to have turn 3 lili or pulse for removal. I think it's playable against a random opponent.
5. Keep. You have discard and push for early interaction. Even though ooze is not a great early threat, but you have command to bring it back so I think it's a playable hand.
So why not discuss this issue with a few example hands: What would be your choices in the following scenarios:
Hand#1: Against Affinity, on the draw:
2x Scavenging Ooze, Lightning Bolt, Liliana of the Veil, Raging Ravine, Verdant Catacombs, Dark Confidant
Hand #2: Against Random Opponent, G1, on the play:
2x Liliana of the Veil, Swamp, Forest, Overgrown Tomb, Thoughtseize, Kolaghan’s Command
Hand #3: Against Tron, G2, on play (so you lost g1):
2x Inquisition of Kozilek, 2x Liliana of the Veil, Verdant Catacombs, Stomping Ground, Lightning Bolt
Hand #4: Against Random opponent, G1, on draw:
Swamp, Bloodstained Mire, Tarmogoyf, 2x Scavenging Ooze, Liliana of the Veil, Maelstrom Pulse
Hand #5: Against Grixis Shadow, on the draw:
Verdant Catacombs, Bloodstained Mire, 2x Inquisition of Kozilek, Scavenging Ooze, Fatal Push, Kolaghan's Command
Keep or Mull? What would you guys do and why?
Thanks for the write up, Im answering without looking at other people's answers.
Hand 1: Mull; I would mull this hand because Lotv and Ooze on the draw is too slow
Hand 2: Keep; I would keep this hand because I have Thoughtseize and the lands needed for turn 3 play, although no turn 2 play
Hand 3: Mull; way too many dead cards, although 2 Lotv would be nice
Hand 4: Keep; 3 theats, 1 Lotv and 1 Pulse sounds good
Hand 5: Keep; although clunky, scavenging, fatal push and k command do pretty well
Hand #1: Might seem tempting due to bolt, as bolt always lets you feel safe in a way against a creature based deck. But basically all of you decided to mull this hand. I can only agree. You have to look at the whole hand. With this hand, you play your untapped land, maybe bolt their Steel Overseer and then what? You have to play Ravine tapped and basically get time walked, you are very far behind at this point if the opponent follows up with a plating + equip for example. I personally don't think Ooze is that abysmal in that matchup, as it can go out of hand when ooze gets huge and gains you a bunch of precious lifepoints. But 2 Ooze and especially on the draw is definitely too slow. 1 would be acceptable if you have a couple of removal spells, but not like this. So I think we can agree that you have to mull this hand.
Hand #2: This hand should seem like a slow one, where you basically hope for resolving a LoTV. I think this hand is a ok in this meta, LoTV alone can win games occasionally. Since you are on the play, I think you should keep that hand, due to TS. If you were on the draw, it gets more tricky. This hand can sometimes be to slow in that case. Generally speaking though, this hand is a keep in my opinion. Seems we all agree on that one as well.
Hand #3: Now this hand seems to be interesting. The opinions are mixed here. Lets look at the basic information we have: We are up against Tron, arguably the worst matchup we have, and are in g2, already down a game. So, you gotta ask yourself: can you afford to keep mediocre hands in a matchup where you are down a game and are unfavoured generally? This hand may seem ok to buy you time, since you got 2 IOKs. LoTV may also seem nice, but just think about the amount of possibilites Tron has to find their pieces. What if you open up with IOK and see a hand of: Stirrings, Map, Mine, Grove, Tower, Karn, Chromatic Sphere? You can discard map, but the opponent can stirrings regardless and maybe find the last tron piece, resulting in a turn 4 karn. Thats gg. I would maybe keep this hand if I had 2 TS instead of IOK! Why? Because I do think that taking their threats out of their hand is more sufficient than taking their searchers. They have much more redundancy in finding tron than in finding threats. Finding threats is still rather easy due to Stirrings, but it would be better at least. If you had at least one TS, you could discard map turn 1 (with IOK), then the opponents stirrings for a tron land (maybe) where you could follow up by TS the karn. Now he needs to draw into extra threats to kill you. Its still hard enough to keep such a hand, bc you have no threat. And thats basically the point. In this situation you cannot afford to draw out of it. You need a turn 2 threat and ideally a turn 1 TS. And since you are down one game I think you have to mull this hand.
Hand #4: As other mentioned, this is an absolute fine hand to keep. You got things to do with the lands you have, and if you draw your thrid land (which is very likely) then your hand can turn into pure business. And that even if you are on the draw. I think having the extra draw step actually helps keeping it, since you have a higher chance drawing the third land. With the 3rd land this hand is really good in my opinion. Maybe not the best, but in the dark, solid.
Hand #5: I wanted to present a hand which is generally very keepable, but I build in the impossibility to deal with an early Tasigur or Gurmag. That might actually be a problem. Keep in mind that you are on the draw. Maybe you draw into terminate or LoTV to deal with delve creatures. But I think if you keep this then the main risk is that you could loose to early Tasigur or Gurmag. And since you are on the draw, a turn 2 tasigur does not seem that preventable. If the opponent opens up with discard, he sees that we are lacking the interaction here and will definitely go for an early delve threat if the opponent can. That being said I would still keep, like others also mentioned. But by looking at a hand like this you immediately need to see that you are lacking the hard removal for delve creatures. Thats you main and most important problem with the hand. Everything else seems good, you good a threat, you got interaction and grindy cards ala KCommand. So if you keep this hand, you need to be aware that you are looking for hard removal going onward.
Seems that most of us agree on the hands, which is great. Do you think this is helpful for beginners or to discuss generally? I am inclined to go on gathering scenarios like this to discuss about keep or mull decisions, might be interested for one or two here.
Yes...?
Olivia dominates creature matchups of any flavor. She's good at pinging x/1's and she can get bigger than the other guy's dudes and/or threaten to steal if the game is grinding on. The steal is so mana-intensive that I've rarely ever used it in Modern, but it isn't irrelevant. It's much more common to just grow her to 6/6+ and wall Smashers or anglers. With her evasion she also closes quickly when you're ready to turn the corner.
I run her out of board and I'll bring her in for Abzan decks or E-tron, primarily.
Victim of Night works fine in Rock as well. All of the B side-board anti-crature tech is available as well including Damnation.
I really want to try a Traverse Rock list. I could see Shriekmaw or perhaps Big Game Hunter in the mix. Newliana and BGH seems like a hoot.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I agree 100%
I think it's good for JUND that E-TRON is the Tron deck of choice ATM.
Beat Abzan DS 2-0
Beat Affinity 2-0
Beat Tron 2-1
Beat Esper DS 2-1
and drawing in the finals vs. Bushwhacker Vengevine Zoo.
Pretty happy how it goes lately, Jund feels great for me, been on 23 lands still, and it still feels right.
Hope you guys are doing well as well, keep Junding 'em out guys!
It's only a 1 card difference, but I'd like to see what your 23 land list looks like.
good job delver! I agree with 23 lands as well.
3 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Hazoret the Fervent
1 Olivia Voldaren
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Liliana of the Veil
Spells (18)
3 Fatal Push
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Breeding Pool
1 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
2 Countersquall
2 Disdainful Stroke
1 Damnation
1 Liliana, The Last Hope
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Thoughts on this Blue Jund list? I took inspiration from the 7th Place list from Tom Bentley at the SCG IQ. I felt like he was on to something splashing blue for snap. I think the mana maybe needs work but I went 4-1 last night with (drew very poorly against GDS) BUT the deck felt REALLY strong against Tron variants and scapeshift after sideboarding.
Sry for the late reply, but here you go:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blooming Marsh
3 Raging Ravine
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
Creatures [13]
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Olivia Voldaren
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Fatal Push
3 Terminate
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Collective Brutality
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ancient Grugde
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Maelstrom Pulse
My sideboard is pretty adjusted to my meta, which mainly consists of UWx Control, GY based decks a la Living End, Affinity, Burn and Elves. In between there are some DS variants and sometimes Tron/Valakut. And due to this, I wanted Kozilek's Return over Damnation, which is better against Affinity/Elves and also decent vs Burn. Anger is basically not needed in my meta atm. I really like Thrun now, as it helps vs blue based Control. It seems that, not only has it risen in popularity in my meta, but online as well, according to Goldfish.
I would feel super uncomfortable running less than 2x Ancient Grudges, especially with the current meta.
Looks like a solid list. I've been disliking Damnation in every GBx deck lately, it feels so incredibly tempo negative.
With the way modern has looked, I feel like Jund's 75 feel's so pressured to squeeze in enough artifact, graveyard hate, land hate for the meta.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/04-08-16-modern-jund/
Round 1: BR Goryo's
In game one I have a curve of Inquisition>Goyf>Lili I take a Goryo's and doesn't recover from multiple Lili activations.
In game two he keeps a one land hand, and Inquisitions my Surgical Extraction out of my hand. On my turn one I Thoughtseize away a
Faithless Looting to prevent him from digging for more lands. Over the course of three turns he fails to draw into land and gets crushed by
multiple threats.
Match record (1-0)
Round 2: Merfolk
In game one we trade resources for a few turns. At one point I swing all out, but fail to do the math and he kills me on the crackback.
feels bad, but lesson learned.
For game two I draw multiple Dark Confidants and fail to answer all his threats.
Match record (1-1)
Round 3: Junk
We trade answers and threats over the course of several turns. Eventually I stick a Raging Ravine, and end the game.
In the second game he casts Lingering Souls with flashback keeping another copy in his hand. I force him to discard it with Kcommand and then exile
it with Scooze. Afterwards he floods out and I close the game with a flipped Huntmaster.
Match record (2-1)
Round 4: Abzan Counters
In the first game I get overwhelmed by Finks+Gavony.
The second game almost ended the same way but I draw a timely Maelstrom Pulse to kill a pair of pumped up Noble Hierarchs and swing for lethal.
My opponent gets mana screwed and dies to pressure in the third game.
Match record (3-1)
Round 5: Abzan Counters
My opponent mulls to 5, and we have a nongame.
In the second game I kill a few things , but he combos off and kills me with Walking Balista.
I manage to stick a turn two Bob and the card advantage he provided me allowed me to take the match.
Match record (4-1)
Round 6: Merfolk
Kira, Great Glass Spinner, and Master of Waves sucks.
Match record (4-2)
Round 7: Scapeshift
I only win game one due to an error my opponent made. He has a Courser in play revealing a mountain on top. I pass the turn and he draws the mountain,
then proceeds to draw a second card that I did not see. After a judge call he reveals his hand and I got to pick a card from his hand to shuffle back
into his deck. He reveals the mountain he drew, Primeval Titan, and Chandra Torch of Defiance. I took the Prime Time, and then finished him off.
I lose the second game to multiple Valakut triggers.
After a mull I keep a hand of 3x lands, 2x Thoughtseize, and Inquisition. I see Stomping Grounds on top and bottom it. After striping his hand, killing
multiple Chameleon Colossus' and even using Fulminator Mage+Surgical Extraction on Valakut I lose to a resolved Primeval Titan.
Final match record: (4-3)
This was my first PPTQ and my first tournament report so apologies if it's a little vague. I should have wrote down notes between matchs. Will do next
time.
Do you always mull for turn one discard on play and turn one kill spell when on the draw? How low do you mull down to?
Do you keep hands with 3 lands with 2 two drops but without a turn one play?
I'm running 23 lands and I ran 2x Blooming Marsh and 8 Fetches, would 9 fetches be better? because I seem to draw into A LOT of tapped lands
Sorry fr the noob questions
Thank you for asking these questions. Can anyone who is more experienced advise?
I also wonder about how many threats is too few/too many to keep. I think keeping hands with lots of disruption and good mana but no threats are easy to keep but hands with good mana and lots (2+) threats but no disruption are pretty sketchy but not sure if you must mulligan them hoping for the disruption you need in certain matchups. I think that hands with a couple 2 drop creatures, lands and a LOTV can be ok but not ideal with my logic being that LOTV is both a threat and relevant disruption vs most of the field.
Thoughts?
Hand#1: Against Affinity, on the draw:
2x Scavenging Ooze, Lightning Bolt, Liliana of the Veil, Raging Ravine, Verdant Catacombs, Dark Confidant
Hand #2: Against Random Opponent, G1, on the play:
2x Liliana of the Veil, Swamp, Forest, Overgrown Tomb, Thoughtseize, Kolaghan’s Command
Hand #3: Against Tron, G2, on play (so you lost g1):
2x Inquisition of Kozilek, 2x Liliana of the Veil, Verdant Catacombs, Stomping Ground, Lightning Bolt
Hand #4: Against Random opponent, G1, on draw:
Swamp, Bloodstained Mire, Tarmogoyf, 2x Scavenging Ooze, Liliana of the Veil, Maelstrom Pulse
Hand #5: Against Grixis Shadow, on the draw:
Verdant Catacombs, Bloodstained Mire, 2x Inquisition of Kozilek, Scavenging Ooze, Fatal Push, Kolaghan's Command
Keep or Mull? What would you guys do and why?
2. It's unfortunate to have no turn two play, but the potential to take their turn one play is pretty good. The lack of red mana is annoying, but this hand makes me feel like I'm not in a hurry to find it. Would keep.
3. Having double Inquisition is ok, but not great. Lack of turn two threat is also sub-optimal, however potential turn three Lili can be what swings the game to a possible win. I would keep this.
4. My only problem with this hand is it only has two lands. Other then that it's an easy keep.
5. The weakest part of this hand is it's inability to deal with a resolved delve creature. Still double Inquisition to take opposing answers, and Kcommand to bring Scooze back is not too bad. I would try it.
Prior to reading the other replies I wanted to keep this because you have a good mix of lands and spells but in hind sight I wasn't taking the matchup that you gave us notice of into enough consideration. Just one bolt is not close to enough interaction to blunt their early game and I agree that ooze is not the blocker we need to keep a hand similar to this one. Against a random opponent I would definitely keep this on the draw but I'm not sure that's right. To be clear I don't value ooze in opening hands and having two is really bad but there are scenarios where the creatures could be fine (e.g. turn 1 ravine turn 2 ooze see if opponent kills it follow up with a confidant later). It's not a great outcome but that's how I'm thinking about it.
My thought process is that thoughtseize is a good turn one play against almost everything, I've got three lands which I value pretty highly and LOTV is similarly good against the field so I feel drawn to keep even though it's not perfect with no castable removal spells. I'm reluctant to go to six cards when I have the potential to make two good plays in the first three turns of the game.
Honestly I want to keep this one too even though it's not applying the right kind of pressure to our nemesis. I'm hoping to nab a stirrings or a map early with the two IOKs (or a rest in peace if they're on GW Tron) and then draw the third land for LOTV - maybe it's good enough. I think that DeFish's argument to mull because there's no two drop creature is very reasonable and I want to agree with him but on my own I would keep it and probably be wrong to do so.
I don't like this hand because I dislike fetching so early when I want the third land ASAP with the oozes the LOTV and the pulse all in the opener. I think that I value deck thining more than I should and this impacts my decision to mull this. I would like the hand much more if the basic swamp was any other land. This being said I think it's defensible to keep as we are likely one draw step away from doing things so long as we draw a land or an interactive spell. Once again I think the other responses have convinced me that it's right to keep even if I might not have kept it myself.
I would keep this hand. It has most of the elements that I want against shadow in the early game and is somewhat resilient to their turn one discard spell they almost always have even after sideboarding (is it just me?). I don't love IOKs against them and I probably would have boarded them out for some card advantage/better answers but they are situationally great against snapcasters/kcommands/shadows so maybe I'm wrong to cut them (for reference I usually good all IOKs and keep my thoughtseizes).
Thanks FlyingDelver for posing these scenerios. I'm curious what others would do.
2. Keep. You have thoughtseize on turn 1 to see what your opponent play and there's a good chance to resolve a turn 3 liliana. It gives you time to dig for threats and red source.
3. Keep. You can discard tron's early pieces like map, Sylvan Scrying or Ancient Stirrings to slow them down, and hope to resolve a turn 3 liliana to suppress the bigger threat in their hand. Give you time to draw some creature or land destruction.
4. Keep. there's a turn 2 threat, and it's likely to draw a third land to have turn 3 lili or pulse for removal. I think it's playable against a random opponent.
5. Keep. You have discard and push for early interaction. Even though ooze is not a great early threat, but you have command to bring it back so I think it's a playable hand.
Thanks for the write up, Im answering without looking at other people's answers.
Hand 1: Mull; I would mull this hand because Lotv and Ooze on the draw is too slow
Hand 2: Keep; I would keep this hand because I have Thoughtseize and the lands needed for turn 3 play, although no turn 2 play
Hand 3: Mull; way too many dead cards, although 2 Lotv would be nice
Hand 4: Keep; 3 theats, 1 Lotv and 1 Pulse sounds good
Hand 5: Keep; although clunky, scavenging, fatal push and k command do pretty well
Hope i got some of the above right
Hand #1: Might seem tempting due to bolt, as bolt always lets you feel safe in a way against a creature based deck. But basically all of you decided to mull this hand. I can only agree. You have to look at the whole hand. With this hand, you play your untapped land, maybe bolt their Steel Overseer and then what? You have to play Ravine tapped and basically get time walked, you are very far behind at this point if the opponent follows up with a plating + equip for example. I personally don't think Ooze is that abysmal in that matchup, as it can go out of hand when ooze gets huge and gains you a bunch of precious lifepoints. But 2 Ooze and especially on the draw is definitely too slow. 1 would be acceptable if you have a couple of removal spells, but not like this. So I think we can agree that you have to mull this hand.
Hand #2: This hand should seem like a slow one, where you basically hope for resolving a LoTV. I think this hand is a ok in this meta, LoTV alone can win games occasionally. Since you are on the play, I think you should keep that hand, due to TS. If you were on the draw, it gets more tricky. This hand can sometimes be to slow in that case. Generally speaking though, this hand is a keep in my opinion. Seems we all agree on that one as well.
Hand #3: Now this hand seems to be interesting. The opinions are mixed here. Lets look at the basic information we have: We are up against Tron, arguably the worst matchup we have, and are in g2, already down a game. So, you gotta ask yourself: can you afford to keep mediocre hands in a matchup where you are down a game and are unfavoured generally? This hand may seem ok to buy you time, since you got 2 IOKs. LoTV may also seem nice, but just think about the amount of possibilites Tron has to find their pieces. What if you open up with IOK and see a hand of: Stirrings, Map, Mine, Grove, Tower, Karn, Chromatic Sphere? You can discard map, but the opponent can stirrings regardless and maybe find the last tron piece, resulting in a turn 4 karn. Thats gg. I would maybe keep this hand if I had 2 TS instead of IOK! Why? Because I do think that taking their threats out of their hand is more sufficient than taking their searchers. They have much more redundancy in finding tron than in finding threats. Finding threats is still rather easy due to Stirrings, but it would be better at least. If you had at least one TS, you could discard map turn 1 (with IOK), then the opponents stirrings for a tron land (maybe) where you could follow up by TS the karn. Now he needs to draw into extra threats to kill you. Its still hard enough to keep such a hand, bc you have no threat. And thats basically the point. In this situation you cannot afford to draw out of it. You need a turn 2 threat and ideally a turn 1 TS. And since you are down one game I think you have to mull this hand.
Hand #4: As other mentioned, this is an absolute fine hand to keep. You got things to do with the lands you have, and if you draw your thrid land (which is very likely) then your hand can turn into pure business. And that even if you are on the draw. I think having the extra draw step actually helps keeping it, since you have a higher chance drawing the third land. With the 3rd land this hand is really good in my opinion. Maybe not the best, but in the dark, solid.
Hand #5: I wanted to present a hand which is generally very keepable, but I build in the impossibility to deal with an early Tasigur or Gurmag. That might actually be a problem. Keep in mind that you are on the draw. Maybe you draw into terminate or LoTV to deal with delve creatures. But I think if you keep this then the main risk is that you could loose to early Tasigur or Gurmag. And since you are on the draw, a turn 2 tasigur does not seem that preventable. If the opponent opens up with discard, he sees that we are lacking the interaction here and will definitely go for an early delve threat if the opponent can. That being said I would still keep, like others also mentioned. But by looking at a hand like this you immediately need to see that you are lacking the hard removal for delve creatures. Thats you main and most important problem with the hand. Everything else seems good, you good a threat, you got interaction and grindy cards ala KCommand. So if you keep this hand, you need to be aware that you are looking for hard removal going onward.
Seems that most of us agree on the hands, which is great. Do you think this is helpful for beginners or to discuss generally? I am inclined to go on gathering scenarios like this to discuss about keep or mull decisions, might be interested for one or two here.
Let me know what you guys think.