Totally agree with you that the list is higher variance than the OG Jund versions. The only reason we are going this low on lands and dealing with the variance is because it gives us the best chance to beat GDS and go under Tron to the best of our abilities. I do honestly relate the Traverse package in the deck to the Eldrazi package in Tron. It costs consistency and would not normally be played but the metagame makes it into a necessity.
Now you could remove the traverse package and go up a couple lands but the main core I designed the deck in mind with was Claim//Fame. The card is kinda bonkers.
Well I think its not a necessitiy actually. GDS is not too bad of a matchup with regular Jund. Tron is the real thing, but I am a firm believer we cannot push this matchup anywhere close to 50/50 without dedicating too much SB space for that matchup. That leaves me wondering if I am ok with this high variance for all other matchups. And I am not quite convinced that I am. I think more than half the time delirium is not activated where you really want it. And thats the concern I have.
what about just playing "normal" jund with 22 lands and a lower curve?
no 4 drops
4 lili and some other 3 mana cards like pulse or kolaghan
rest as usual
with claim//fame of course
There was a time 23 land jund was a thing for a short period of time. I played it, but apparantly had the experience that the last land was actually missing in that deck. In this version I did also cut down to 1 4 drop I think.
I played DSJ tonight and went 2 and 2, and god, did I just activating delirium. spending a turn just to achieve delirium and casting a slow shadow felt bad.
Maybe delirium is just a dangerous mechanic to rely on, when there's certain matchups that you're sideboarding instants/lotv/discard, the delirium gets worse.
Maybe OG Jund is the way to go, but I'm glad to hear about your results with that card.
Thats what I am trying to say all along. Delirium is not a reliable mechanic. You either love it or absolutely hate it. The same goes for Flayer. And I think this is related to delirium. You can build a traverse deck and in theory, it absolutley is amazing, since you have less bad topdecks, tutorable threats and flexibility right? Well, not if deliirum isn't present when you want it.
Flyer, sounds like derlium didn't do poorly for you, Scapeshift and Tron are total ***** matches.
Sheridan said that the data results show Jund v Tron is actually a 40/60 matchup but there's no way in hell I believe this, even if there's old data to back that up.
It did poorly overall. Was never really feeling that delirium is flawless. It always felt like a hard achieved accomplishment when I finally got to cast a travers with delirium online. And I lost both those matchups actually
Tron vs Jund is 40/60? More like 20/80 and I am being generous here.
With how bad tron and titanshift is, I'm thinking whether it's even worth the trouble to pack 3 fulminators now? And eldratron doesn't even give a damn about fulminators. Those 3 slots can instead go into ensuring we beat dredge/affinity everytime etc
Honestly, I'm tempted to sell off my baubles, as I think delirium in general is bad, Grixis is definitely better.
As for fulms, when I test the deck out on mtgo without it, it always feels good, and then I play it on paper, and constantly run into matchups where I wish it was in my 75.
It's a garbage card but needed
I wish that fake land destruction with a stapled discard attached wasn't fake, people were hyped.
What do you guys feel would have to be done to push Jund back to tier 1? BBE? A new released land destruction?
I've been thinking about ditching my baubles and Shadows as well, the delirium cards are great but the enablers are pretty mediocre.
I think Fulminator gets beat up on a little too much, I don't have them on MTGO and I've definitely noticed their absence. He's no Wasteland, but he's an important role player in the B/G/x 75. For as much as we all love to complain about him, most winning lists still run at least 2.
I think that a BBE unban would immediately put Jund in Tier 1 based on representation alone, the card is very exciting to play with and we just don't run many 2-for-1 cards like it these days. I've had a BBE list ready to go since I bought into the deck, and it had already been banned for a while at that point.
BBE aside, it seems like the biggest problem facing B/G/x is just how taxed our sideboards are. We were complaining about not being able to sideboard for everything even before Dredge was a real deck, and sideboards now need to have slots for Affinity, Dredge, Burn, midrange mirrors, control, and big mana. I think that we either need better ways to find our sideboard cards (which is why cards like Grim Flayer and Traverse the Ulvenwald have been so heavily tested), or sideboard cards that are applicable against 2-3 of the above decks.
Thats a good observation, but if that's true Jund has a huge issue for the time being. You are right, the SB feels taxed, partially because modern has a healthy variety, but it's so much to sideboard, we were already jammed back before we loaded up on GY hate.
Remember when graveyard hate barely existed and we mainly just jammed other things?
I wouldn't get rid of my shadows, grixis really feels a lot like jund, my dude. I was playing DSJ though and I was constantly low on cards in hand trying to go all in, I had issues getting Shadow bigger than 2/2 and Goyf bigger than 3/4 against Scapeshift. I don't see how Jund Shadow really hits tier 1, it was a flash in the pan. Grixis, however is very, very real; what surprises me is how much it feels like Jund.
I want to see how the next few modern tournaments go, if Jund see's no results I'm definitely off the deck until BBE possible gets unbanned or some new sets help out Jund.
I have 3x foil BBE's sitting in my binder in the case WOTC ever decides to do something
BBE would be a dream come true. Right now we just have to wait and see.
In my opinion, the biggest problem Jund has to compete in Tier 1 category, is the diversity of the meta. I think the meta is diverse like never before. And Jund is a reactive deck, which has efficient answers for the different threats of the opponent. But sometimes our answers are not working against certain strategies (Like Fatal Push against Living End). In the past this would mean that we have to tweak the deck perfectly to tackle the overal meta. This is harder to accomplish when the meta gets more diverse. Our answers are after all conditional, and more often we facing situations where our answers are simply dead cards.
Thats the reason for me, not the banning of Probe or the printing of Push. Its just the diversity of the meta which makes it nearly impossible for us to cover everything. And this simply means practive strategies are better in such an environment as opposing to reactive ones. If you look at the overall meta this makes sense: Burn, Grixis DS, Affinity, Eldrazi Tron, Dredge, Titan shift, Tron are basically all proactive.
Jund has a hard time due to this, but I still like the deck no matter what. I believe time will come when Jund hits tier 1 again. As long as its still a deck, this doesn't bother me too much though.
Na Balista doesn't make too much sense as chaos already said, it requires tons of mana. I think the overall best solution for Souls is Liliana, the Last Hope. Liliana might not be a simple solution like NOSB, but Liliana does at least no kill our own Bobs, which is my biggest problem with NoSB. Typically you face Souls in matchups where you want bob. Thats why I think LtLH is the best allrounder here.
At least run 8-9 fetches since we need revolt for Fatal Push. 7 is too low.
I would cut Twilight Mire from the deck right now. We need coloured mana on turn 1 now more than ever due to Push.
5 Fastlands are ok to run, I would go for a split of 3 Blackcleave and 2 Blooming Marshes. But 4 Cliff and 1 Marsh is also ok.
Creaturebase:
About 50 % of the decks you described are grindy decks. Tracker doesn't seem that bad here, since most of the decks don't play excessive removal. You can play him but its not obligated. Running 14 creatures is one above average, but I think its fine for your meta. You might swap a creature for Grim Lavamancer sometime, it seems great for your meta.
Spellbase:
Looks fine to me.
Sideboard:
Am not a fan of Shatterstorm too much, I would play Ancient Grudge over it any time.
I would absolutely play 2 Damnations in your SB due to Affinity, Bant Eldrazi, Abzan CoCo and Jund. Its also ok vs. Jund DS.
Lost Legacy is not good for your meta. Like whocansay mentioned, there is not anything you want to name with that card. Your meta looks creature heavy and grindy. Not a place for this card.
I would play 2 CB due to Abzan CoCo and Burn. Its also good vs Infect.
Lastly I am not sure about Huntmaster and Goblin Dark Dwellers. I'd love some Liliana, the Last Hope for that meta. Its great in every matchup (except vs burn). Definitely play 2 copies in the SB.
Ug, I had a weird weekend guys and I missed my scheduled PPTQ unfortunately. I'll continue to test and tweak my list overall and will hopefully make the 1 next week.
What do you guys feel would have to be done to push Jund back to tier 1? BBE? A new released land destruction?
Well, my friend, I think you've got that one right. I think the time for the queen of Jund to return is near. It's the perfect environment for BBE to return without being opresive. With her in hand, a turn 3 Karn is no longer as scary as before. And also, it could be the card needed to make Grim Flayer shine eventually...We shall see.
Cheers!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
GBR May the Jund'ish side of the Force be with you! GBR
Yesterday I went to a modern PPTQ with 80 players and a total of 4K (approximetly 1.9 USD), I've opened up 4-0, but then I lost to Storm, Grixis DS and Jeskai control to miss any chance of prizing and the top 8 itself.
This is were all the matchs I've played:
RG TitanShift - Won 2-0
Abzan - Won 2-0
Grixis DS - Won 2-0
Affinity - Won 2-0
Storm - Loss 0-2 (Won the whole thing)
Grixis DS - Loss 1-2
Jeskai Flash - Loss 0-2
This is a brief report, I don't remember everything..
R1 - RG TitanShift: G1 opp mulled to 6 on the play and I managed to discard T1, Goyf T2, discard T3 and LotV on T4.
G2 were pretty much the same, except that on T3 I played a LotV and on T5, a fulminator backed up by a terminate sealed the deal.
R2 - Abzan: Opp never saw Lingering Souls on both games. Resources traded and my draws were better. Nothing special here.
R3 - Grixis DS: This were a walk in the park to say so, we traded resources and Bob plus LotV sealed the deal. Observation here: This is a match that we must be careful, trade resources wisely and cash in on every mistaked/bad decision the opp make.
R4 - Affinity: With 2 Kommand main board and packed with a lot removal, I've managed to navigate G1 through the win.
G2 my opponent misscalculated the damage with Ravager and I had an active Scooze to eat the 2 creatures he had previsously sacrified for Ravager. He were dead on board next turn.
R5 - Storm: Lost both games. On G1 opponent got lucky drawing the third baral to going off, after me killing both of it.
On G2 I've never saw my hate cards. But I believe I've missplayed. On turn 5 he had a Goblin Electromancer on play, three cards in hand which were 2 lands and a Past in Flames..I've casted Collective Brutality, going for the goblin and the Past in Flames, when I should escalate again to drain 2.
A couple of turns later, he comboed off with the goblins with storm count on 10. I had an Scooze and bob to block and gain me a couple of life, killed 4 of with removal and with LotV, eventually I had 4 life, a scooze to block one of the 5 tokens, this is were that missplayed enters. If I had drained him, I could kill one token, take 4 going down to 2 and draw into Huntmaster, stabilize the board and even have an active LotV. What do you guys think of it? Missplayed because I did not thought of that line of play on that turn?
R6 - Grixis DS: On G1 we traded resources as supposed, but LotV is THE card against them. She single handed won that match.
G2 and G3, his draws were better than mine and I've lost both games to a tasigur.
R7 - Jeskai Control: We traded resources early on but I flooded pretty badly on both games.
The event were packed with RG Valakut variants, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity and Grixis DS.
A few notes from this list:
23 Lands were the optimal number of lands. Never missed the 23th or the 3rd Ravine.
3-3 split on the discards, which paid off against Grixis DS and RG Valakut.
No finks on board, and I missed him there.
3 CBs is a lot. Sided all of the in against Storm only.
Big Game Hunter is a decent tech. Never casted him, but every match I brought him in, I felt safe with one more removal that could got Kommaned back to my hand.
2 Bolts were sided out very often. Probably going to remove them entirely. It's just bad nowadays. 4 Pushs and 4 Terminates are better and safe I believe.
That's it! Thanks for your reading and sry about grammar mistakes.
What do you guys feel would have to be done to push Jund back to tier 1? BBE? A new released land destruction?
Well, my friend, I think you've got that one right. I think the time for the queen of Jund to return is near. It's the perfect environment for BBE to return without being opresive. With her in hand, a turn 3 Karn is no longer as scary as before. And also, it could be the card needed to make Grim Flayer shine eventually...We shall see.
Cheers!
How does Bloodbraid Elf fix problems that come from a turn 3 Karn?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Well I think its not a necessitiy actually. GDS is not too bad of a matchup with regular Jund. Tron is the real thing, but I am a firm believer we cannot push this matchup anywhere close to 50/50 without dedicating too much SB space for that matchup. That leaves me wondering if I am ok with this high variance for all other matchups. And I am not quite convinced that I am. I think more than half the time delirium is not activated where you really want it. And thats the concern I have.
There was a time 23 land jund was a thing for a short period of time. I played it, but apparantly had the experience that the last land was actually missing in that deck. In this version I did also cut down to 1 4 drop I think.
Thats what I am trying to say all along. Delirium is not a reliable mechanic. You either love it or absolutely hate it. The same goes for Flayer. And I think this is related to delirium. You can build a traverse deck and in theory, it absolutley is amazing, since you have less bad topdecks, tutorable threats and flexibility right? Well, not if deliirum isn't present when you want it.
It did poorly overall. Was never really feeling that delirium is flawless. It always felt like a hard achieved accomplishment when I finally got to cast a travers with delirium online. And I lost both those matchups actually
Tron vs Jund is 40/60? More like 20/80 and I am being generous here.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
As for fulms, when I test the deck out on mtgo without it, it always feels good, and then I play it on paper, and constantly run into matchups where I wish it was in my 75.
It's a garbage card but needed
I wish that fake land destruction with a stapled discard attached wasn't fake, people were hyped.
What do you guys feel would have to be done to push Jund back to tier 1? BBE? A new released land destruction?
I think Fulminator gets beat up on a little too much, I don't have them on MTGO and I've definitely noticed their absence. He's no Wasteland, but he's an important role player in the B/G/x 75. For as much as we all love to complain about him, most winning lists still run at least 2.
I think that a BBE unban would immediately put Jund in Tier 1 based on representation alone, the card is very exciting to play with and we just don't run many 2-for-1 cards like it these days. I've had a BBE list ready to go since I bought into the deck, and it had already been banned for a while at that point.
BBE aside, it seems like the biggest problem facing B/G/x is just how taxed our sideboards are. We were complaining about not being able to sideboard for everything even before Dredge was a real deck, and sideboards now need to have slots for Affinity, Dredge, Burn, midrange mirrors, control, and big mana. I think that we either need better ways to find our sideboard cards (which is why cards like Grim Flayer and Traverse the Ulvenwald have been so heavily tested), or sideboard cards that are applicable against 2-3 of the above decks.
Remember when graveyard hate barely existed and we mainly just jammed other things?
I wouldn't get rid of my shadows, grixis really feels a lot like jund, my dude. I was playing DSJ though and I was constantly low on cards in hand trying to go all in, I had issues getting Shadow bigger than 2/2 and Goyf bigger than 3/4 against Scapeshift. I don't see how Jund Shadow really hits tier 1, it was a flash in the pan. Grixis, however is very, very real; what surprises me is how much it feels like Jund.
I want to see how the next few modern tournaments go, if Jund see's no results I'm definitely off the deck until BBE possible gets unbanned or some new sets help out Jund.
I have 3x foil BBE's sitting in my binder in the case WOTC ever decides to do something
In my opinion, the biggest problem Jund has to compete in Tier 1 category, is the diversity of the meta. I think the meta is diverse like never before. And Jund is a reactive deck, which has efficient answers for the different threats of the opponent. But sometimes our answers are not working against certain strategies (Like Fatal Push against Living End). In the past this would mean that we have to tweak the deck perfectly to tackle the overal meta. This is harder to accomplish when the meta gets more diverse. Our answers are after all conditional, and more often we facing situations where our answers are simply dead cards.
Thats the reason for me, not the banning of Probe or the printing of Push. Its just the diversity of the meta which makes it nearly impossible for us to cover everything. And this simply means practive strategies are better in such an environment as opposing to reactive ones. If you look at the overall meta this makes sense: Burn, Grixis DS, Affinity, Eldrazi Tron, Dredge, Titan shift, Tron are basically all proactive.
Jund has a hard time due to this, but I still like the deck no matter what. I believe time will come when Jund hits tier 1 again. As long as its still a deck, this doesn't bother me too much though.
It requires a lot of mana. If we lived in that kind of magical Christmas land, there a ton of things we would play before that.
I finnaly finish my jund deck and i need some support.
Here is my list:
My Jund
My questions are:
- 23 or 24 lands?
- 5 Fast lands?
- Filter and Marsh together?
- Do I need a Tracker?
My meta:
- Affinity
- Bant Eldrazi
- Coco Abzan Combo
- Burn
- Jund DS
- Infect
- Jund
Suggestions? Ideias to SB?
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Landbase:
At least run 8-9 fetches since we need revolt for Fatal Push. 7 is too low.
I would cut Twilight Mire from the deck right now. We need coloured mana on turn 1 now more than ever due to Push.
5 Fastlands are ok to run, I would go for a split of 3 Blackcleave and 2 Blooming Marshes. But 4 Cliff and 1 Marsh is also ok.
Creaturebase:
About 50 % of the decks you described are grindy decks. Tracker doesn't seem that bad here, since most of the decks don't play excessive removal. You can play him but its not obligated. Running 14 creatures is one above average, but I think its fine for your meta. You might swap a creature for Grim Lavamancer sometime, it seems great for your meta.
Spellbase:
Looks fine to me.
Sideboard:
Am not a fan of Shatterstorm too much, I would play Ancient Grudge over it any time.
I would absolutely play 2 Damnations in your SB due to Affinity, Bant Eldrazi, Abzan CoCo and Jund. Its also ok vs. Jund DS.
Lost Legacy is not good for your meta. Like whocansay mentioned, there is not anything you want to name with that card. Your meta looks creature heavy and grindy. Not a place for this card.
I would play 2 CB due to Abzan CoCo and Burn. Its also good vs Infect.
Lastly I am not sure about Huntmaster and Goblin Dark Dwellers. I'd love some Liliana, the Last Hope for that meta. Its great in every matchup (except vs burn). Definitely play 2 copies in the SB.
So this would look like this:
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Collective Brutality
2 Damnation
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Engineered Explosives
Well, my friend, I think you've got that one right. I think the time for the queen of Jund to return is near. It's the perfect environment for BBE to return without being opresive. With her in hand, a turn 3 Karn is no longer as scary as before. And also, it could be the card needed to make Grim Flayer shine eventually...We shall see.
Cheers!
Yesterday I went to a modern PPTQ with 80 players and a total of 4K (approximetly 1.9 USD), I've opened up 4-0, but then I lost to Storm, Grixis DS and Jeskai control to miss any chance of prizing and the top 8 itself.
This is were all the matchs I've played:
RG TitanShift - Won 2-0
Abzan - Won 2-0
Grixis DS - Won 2-0
Affinity - Won 2-0
Storm - Loss 0-2 (Won the whole thing)
Grixis DS - Loss 1-2
Jeskai Flash - Loss 0-2
This is a brief report, I don't remember everything..
R1 - RG TitanShift: G1 opp mulled to 6 on the play and I managed to discard T1, Goyf T2, discard T3 and LotV on T4.
G2 were pretty much the same, except that on T3 I played a LotV and on T5, a fulminator backed up by a terminate sealed the deal.
R2 - Abzan: Opp never saw Lingering Souls on both games. Resources traded and my draws were better. Nothing special here.
R3 - Grixis DS: This were a walk in the park to say so, we traded resources and Bob plus LotV sealed the deal. Observation here: This is a match that we must be careful, trade resources wisely and cash in on every mistaked/bad decision the opp make.
R4 - Affinity: With 2 Kommand main board and packed with a lot removal, I've managed to navigate G1 through the win.
G2 my opponent misscalculated the damage with Ravager and I had an active Scooze to eat the 2 creatures he had previsously sacrified for Ravager. He were dead on board next turn.
R5 - Storm: Lost both games. On G1 opponent got lucky drawing the third baral to going off, after me killing both of it.
On G2 I've never saw my hate cards. But I believe I've missplayed. On turn 5 he had a Goblin Electromancer on play, three cards in hand which were 2 lands and a Past in Flames..I've casted Collective Brutality, going for the goblin and the Past in Flames, when I should escalate again to drain 2.
A couple of turns later, he comboed off with the goblins with storm count on 10. I had an Scooze and bob to block and gain me a couple of life, killed 4 of with removal and with LotV, eventually I had 4 life, a scooze to block one of the 5 tokens, this is were that missplayed enters. If I had drained him, I could kill one token, take 4 going down to 2 and draw into Huntmaster, stabilize the board and even have an active LotV. What do you guys think of it? Missplayed because I did not thought of that line of play on that turn?
R6 - Grixis DS: On G1 we traded resources as supposed, but LotV is THE card against them. She single handed won that match.
G2 and G3, his draws were better than mine and I've lost both games to a tasigur.
R7 - Jeskai Control: We traded resources early on but I flooded pretty badly on both games.
The event were packed with RG Valakut variants, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity and Grixis DS.
This is the list that I've played
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Terminate
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Raging Ravine
2 Blooming Marsh
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Big Game Hunter
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
A few notes from this list:
23 Lands were the optimal number of lands. Never missed the 23th or the 3rd Ravine.
3-3 split on the discards, which paid off against Grixis DS and RG Valakut.
No finks on board, and I missed him there.
3 CBs is a lot. Sided all of the in against Storm only.
Big Game Hunter is a decent tech. Never casted him, but every match I brought him in, I felt safe with one more removal that could got Kommaned back to my hand.
2 Bolts were sided out very often. Probably going to remove them entirely. It's just bad nowadays. 4 Pushs and 4 Terminates are better and safe I believe.
That's it! Thanks for your reading and sry about grammar mistakes.
UR Twin - RIP
How does Bloodbraid Elf fix problems that come from a turn 3 Karn?