The thing I noticed is, that with this list, most of the time you are operating on 3 lands from what I have seen. Now, if you look at the cards played in this deck, there is a lot of 2 drops. From my short period of testing I figured that often I had clunky hands with multiple 2 drops and 3 mana to operate on which just meant playing only 1 card per turn.
Maybe I am wrong with this, but did anybody else notice something like that?
And to add, I really really would not go crazy about delirium here. Just think of Traverse as being extra lands basically.
Do we still want Raging Ravine in a Traverse build? It seems like a lot to ask even when we can tutor for it. Claim // Fame generally seems better but I'm working on a stranger build. Any opinions?
I think since its prob one of the big reasons to run Jund in the first place I would run 1 copy still.
My first draft of such an approach looks like this:
I think you want 9 fetches still for Push. Running more Blooming Marshes now due to no need of red on turn 1. Might want to run no Cliffs at all. For basics I still want 2 swamps to have more outs vs BM and have more to search with non delirium Traverse. Delirium will not be easy activated in such an approach in my opinion, Traverse's primary function serves as extra lands. Also 1 KCommand an 1 Pulse is also necessary I think. The rest is stock.
I agree with you on the land base decisions. I definitely use Traverse to get lands at a healthy clip because that is what it's there for. It's a land early that turns into a creature late. I am curious about the Olivia choice. I had Olivia in my OG Jund list but I feel like on 19 lands she isn't nearly as good. The other reason I went with Huntmaster over her is he gives you immediate value on ETB and I have 7 cards (you have 6) that enable us to cast 2 spells a turn for just 3 mana even from an empty hand. (traverse and Claim // Fame). I've also considered a split of 3:1 with Lili's because of our increased creature count but LotV is very very good right now so I could see sticking with 4 of her.
Do we still want Raging Ravine in a Traverse build? It seems like a lot to ask even when we can tutor for it. Claim // Fame generally seems better but I'm working on a stranger build. Any opinions?
I think since its prob one of the big reasons to run Jund in the first place I would run 1 copy still.
My first draft of such an approach looks like this:
I think you want 9 fetches still for Push. Running more Blooming Marshes now due to no need of red on turn 1. Might want to run no Cliffs at all. For basics I still want 2 swamps to have more outs vs BM and have more to search with non delirium Traverse. Delirium will not be easy activated in such an approach in my opinion, Traverse's primary function serves as extra lands. Also 1 KCommand an 1 Pulse is also necessary I think. The rest is stock.
Your land base and creature base is very much were I was heading. I think not playing the 4th push is a massive mistake, you really need to maximize your chance to kill something on the draw on turn 1. I think I'd cut the K-Command for the 4th push.
@FlyingDelver I think Terminate is a better reason to run red. In The few games that I've played with my build, Raging Ravine seemed painful to get early and awkward to activate later.
I agree with you on the land base decisions. I definitely use Traverse to get lands at a healthy clip because that is what it's there for. It's a land early that turns into a creature late. I am curious about the Olivia choice. I had Olivia in my OG Jund list but I feel like on 19 lands she isn't nearly as good. The other reason I went with Huntmaster over her is he gives you immediate value on ETB and I have 7 cards (you have 6) that enable us to cast 2 spells a turn for just 3 mana even from an empty hand. (traverse and Claim // Fame). I've also considered a split of 3:1 with Lili's because of our increased creature count but LotV is very very good right now so I could see sticking with 4 of her.
Hm you might be right about Olivia, she needs more mana to be more effective. Huntmaster does seem better there.
Your land base and creature base is very much were I was heading. I think not playing the 4th push is a massive mistake, you really need to maximize your chance to kill something on the draw on turn 1. I think I'd cut the K-Command for the 4th push.
You could be right about Push #4, since I cut my 2 Bolts for Claim//Fame. But I think I want 1 KCommand still. Might cut one Spellbomb or Decay for the fourth one.
@FlyingDelver I think Terminate is a better reason to run red. In The few games that I've played with my build, Raging Ravine seemed painful to get early and awkward to activate later.
There are indeed other reasons to run red like you said with Terminate, but I think Ravine could still be a big enough reason. But I agree Ravine is ofc worse with fewer lands in the deck and Treetop is easier to activate here. The thing is though, that we want a manland no matter what, don't you think?
You can't think of Traverse as a, "I NEED TO HOLD ONTO THIS", it's not meant to grab an early threat, it's meant to smooth out your draws in games that go longer. If you have 1 land in hand, you absolutely traverse. If you have 2 lands in hand and nothing to do on turn 1, probably should just traverse.
Once this deck hits that 3rd land drop, I think that's where you wait for delirium.
I still think Ravine is a mistake, I'm not traversing for a Ravine in games were we are topdecking, I'm probably going to tutor Flayer if he can get in for free beats. Goyf is good, too, but if there's no 5/5s to be worried about, I think its Flayer all the way.
Treetop was extremely relevant as a beater against UR Storm and Lantern, it also gets rid of most of lingering souls if they choose to throw all 3 at it.
I'm not sure I have much time to test the deck out today, would like to test more in practice rooms tomorrow
I'm seeing so many lingering souls around that I'm beginning to wonder if all Jund decks should be running NOTSB.
I think running Damnation in this deck may also be a trap, 1x Anger seems like a nice safety blanket though
I like the idea of 1x Grim in the side, but I'm worried it is extremely detrimental to this deck.
I'm not super high on BOG, I feel like Dredge is already on its way to winning if I'm traversing for it, and UR Storm is usually going off that turn it needs it. Since this deck doesn't run lingering souls, running 1x cage seems like a good hedge against Dredge, Storm and Company, it's also another GY artifact if for some reason you really to throw it in the GY for Flayer beats.
I was reading modern nexus' article on the death of Jund, and it had me thinking, is power creep finally here in modern?
We're dealing with a card thats 1 mana thats huge, or lands cheating in creatures out of bolt range. Bolt is what gave jund that reach and speed, Jund really lost it's speed when bolt became bad.
It looks like fair decks really have to find a way to trim on topdecking lands, and it seems like something needs to change with Jund. I literally stared at mttgoldfish for 10 minutes looking at the top decks---like, it feels as though Jund and Junk are stuck. Eldrazi Tron has warped this meta a lot, contrary to people thinking it's Grixis.
Tron in general has really warped things. Like Bant Eldrazi I still think is fine all things considered but Eldrazi Tron definitely is forcing decks to come in underneath it. I agree that Treetop has been very good and we definitely want the manlands. If you are running Treetop then I think you are definitely running Blackcleave Cliffs to make up for the missing red sources. I loosely agree on Damnation and I even considered Bontu's Last Reckoning but I think the draw back is too high and Anger doesn't kill TKS, Smasher, Goyfs, Rhinos, Tasigurs, Death Shadows and the like. I think it's a necessary evil. If you are truly worried about it, maybe devote a Sideboard slot to a utility land that you bring in when you bring in Damnation.
Random non-traditional, non-Traverse Abzan decks have been on the rise locally for me so I have already brought back Night of Souls' Betrayal in my sideboard. I had a lot of dead space in my sideboard anyway since I'm never quite sure what matches I want to use those slots for. Plus, Fulminator Mage seems to really suck.
Power creep has been in Modern for some time in my opinion. Eldrazi Winter kinda answered that question for us I think.
Random non-traditional, non-Traverse Abzan decks have been on the rise locally for me so I have already brought back Night of Souls' Betrayal in my sideboard. I had a lot of dead space in my sideboard anyway since I'm never quite sure what matches I want to use those slots for. Plus, Fulminator Mage seems to really suck.
Power creep has been in Modern for some time in my opinion. Eldrazi Winter kinda answered that question for us I think.
I was running Night of Soul's Betrayal in my traditional Jund list's sideboard as well. I wonder if there is a creature that can accomplish a similar task that way when you bring it in, it can be tutored for with Traverse.
I was running Night of Soul's Betrayal in my traditional Jund list's sideboard as well. I wonder if there is a creature that can accomplish a similar task that way when you bring it in, it can be tutored for with Traverse.
First off - nice writeup earlier today. Sounds like your suboptimal "claimless" version is working out pretty well. I haven't had a chance to try it out aside from goldfishing so far.
When I ran Night of Souls Betrayal I would typically bring it in against affinity, infect, and lingering souls / token type decks. Obviously, its good against all of these but most of those decks are ones where I want bob to live, too and I would be placed in that annoying situation of having dead cards in hand. If I'm terribly concerned about lingering souls and other spirit / soldier tokens I would probably use Illness in the Ranks now, especially if dropping to 19 lands. Yea, its decayable and only hits tokens - but for 1 mana I think I would be ok w that tradeoff.
I can't think of a creature that gives this effect, even if for a turn, in Jund colors off the top of my head but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Yeah I couldn't find anything either creature wise. I agree that the 4 cmc on Night of Souls betrayal is a bit of an issue for me. I think I'd lean on Liliana the Last Hope if I wanted dedicated X/1 hate. It's a little bit slower about clearing up things on board but it's upside is really high considering all the creatures we are already running.
Yeah I couldn't find anything either creature wise. I agree that the 4 cmc on Night of Souls betrayal is a bit of an issue for me. I think I'd lean on Liliana the Last Hope if I wanted dedicated X/1 hate. It's a little bit slower about clearing up things on board but it's upside is really high considering all the creatures we are already running.
Yea, in my abzan traverse I just run Lili Last Hope and call it a day anyway. Would do the same here.
If you are running Treetop then I think you are definitely running Blackcleave Cliffs to make up for the missing red sources.
I think that given no bolts as a t1 red requirement I'd still shift to Blooming Marsh as the fastland and just make the first fetch grab the Blood Crypt / Stomping Ground. Nothing would feel more awful than a Blackcleave Cliffs as my 1 land in the opener alongside a Traverse. As long as you just need a single red source to cast anything in the 75, it shouldn't be that much of an issue.
The only two I can think of are Minister of Pain and Tooth Collector, which unfortunately don't get reanimated by Claim // Fame. The only option I could find to reanimate is Mogg Fanatic, and that was not exciting.
I like were this is going.
Every since I saw Williy's Abzan Traverse list, I've beem wanting to test it on a Jund shell.
I do have a question though, is Grim Flayer worth it? I mean he's a great beater on delirium enable, but when it's off, he's just not that good..In the Abzan shell he's better because Lingering Souls, you can ditch them to the bin and still generate a lot of value.
Have you guys considered something else? Perhaps the "stock" creature setup with 4 Goyfs, 4 Bobs and 3 Scoozes.
Kinda need more than just the stock list of creatures since (I think) we all agree on cutting 4-CMC spells. Plus, the whole point of the Traverse Jund is to enable delirium for Traverse so why not get more bang for the delirium buck? Also, I've been wondering if we should be cutting Dark Confidant numbers.
Random non-traditional, non-Traverse Abzan decks have been on the rise locally for me so I have already brought back Night of Souls' Betrayal in my sideboard. I had a lot of dead space in my sideboard anyway since I'm never quite sure what matches I want to use those slots for. Plus, Fulminator Mage seems to really suck.
Power creep has been in Modern for some time in my opinion. Eldrazi Winter kinda answered that question for us I think.
I was running Night of Soul's Betrayal in my traditional Jund list's sideboard as well. I wonder if there is a creature that can accomplish a similar task that way when you bring it in, it can be tutored for with Traverse.
Sulfur Elemental could do the trick, specifically against souls.
From my experience with ds jund, delirium is an awful thing to rely on. Its definitely not consistant at all. Thats why i kinda hate traverse and grim flayer. I often had situations where i would want to traverse for a threat sitting on 3 mana, but couldnt bc i had only 3 cardtypes in the yard.
Thats why i am hesitant to get all in on delirium. On the other hand it makes things awkward at times.
Maybe Delirium got hard to turn on because DSJ players kept cutting tarfires almost completely?
Flayers seemed to work ok here in this list, still need to test more.
It's all about timing. DS Jund wanted delirium by turn 2-3 and were often playing tons of "bad cards" to do so (Tarfire, Bauble, Street Wraith etc.). This also left them vulnerable to GY hate since they'd still have these dead cards. This deck doesn't typically want delerium til turn 4+. It's also important to note that Flayer is often our best Claim//Fame target because a hasty 6 power trampler out of nowhere is pretty difficult to block efficiently.
The only two I can think of are Minister of Pain and Tooth Collector, which unfortunately don't get reanimated by Claim // Fame. The only option I could find to reanimate is Mogg Fanatic, and that was not exciting.
Sulfur Elemental could do the trick, specifically against souls.
Yeah these things all seem "fine". I think if you are truly wanting to have a dedicated hate card for decks with X/1's you'd chose something like this as your 1x sideboard slot since they get a lot better in traverse decks (like i plan to squeeze a Reclamation Sage somewhere in my SB because it can be tutored for). Of these 3 options, I'd likely choose Minister of Pain normally but with the increase of D&T/Mono-W Hatebears I could see the argument for Sulfur Elemental.
Maybe I am wrong with this, but did anybody else notice something like that?
And to add, I really really would not go crazy about delirium here. Just think of Traverse as being extra lands basically.
I agree with you on the land base decisions. I definitely use Traverse to get lands at a healthy clip because that is what it's there for. It's a land early that turns into a creature late. I am curious about the Olivia choice. I had Olivia in my OG Jund list but I feel like on 19 lands she isn't nearly as good. The other reason I went with Huntmaster over her is he gives you immediate value on ETB and I have 7 cards (you have 6) that enable us to cast 2 spells a turn for just 3 mana even from an empty hand. (traverse and Claim // Fame). I've also considered a split of 3:1 with Lili's because of our increased creature count but LotV is very very good right now so I could see sticking with 4 of her.
Your land base and creature base is very much were I was heading. I think not playing the 4th push is a massive mistake, you really need to maximize your chance to kill something on the draw on turn 1. I think I'd cut the K-Command for the 4th push.
Hm you might be right about Olivia, she needs more mana to be more effective. Huntmaster does seem better there.
You could be right about Push #4, since I cut my 2 Bolts for Claim//Fame. But I think I want 1 KCommand still. Might cut one Spellbomb or Decay for the fourth one.
There are indeed other reasons to run red like you said with Terminate, but I think Ravine could still be a big enough reason. But I agree Ravine is ofc worse with fewer lands in the deck and Treetop is easier to activate here. The thing is though, that we want a manland no matter what, don't you think?
Once this deck hits that 3rd land drop, I think that's where you wait for delirium.
I still think Ravine is a mistake, I'm not traversing for a Ravine in games were we are topdecking, I'm probably going to tutor Flayer if he can get in for free beats. Goyf is good, too, but if there's no 5/5s to be worried about, I think its Flayer all the way.
Treetop was extremely relevant as a beater against UR Storm and Lantern, it also gets rid of most of lingering souls if they choose to throw all 3 at it.
I'm not sure I have much time to test the deck out today, would like to test more in practice rooms tomorrow
I'm seeing so many lingering souls around that I'm beginning to wonder if all Jund decks should be running NOTSB.
I think running Damnation in this deck may also be a trap, 1x Anger seems like a nice safety blanket though
I like the idea of 1x Grim in the side, but I'm worried it is extremely detrimental to this deck.
I'm not super high on BOG, I feel like Dredge is already on its way to winning if I'm traversing for it, and UR Storm is usually going off that turn it needs it. Since this deck doesn't run lingering souls, running 1x cage seems like a good hedge against Dredge, Storm and Company, it's also another GY artifact if for some reason you really to throw it in the GY for Flayer beats.
I was reading modern nexus' article on the death of Jund, and it had me thinking, is power creep finally here in modern?
We're dealing with a card thats 1 mana thats huge, or lands cheating in creatures out of bolt range. Bolt is what gave jund that reach and speed, Jund really lost it's speed when bolt became bad.
It looks like fair decks really have to find a way to trim on topdecking lands, and it seems like something needs to change with Jund. I literally stared at mttgoldfish for 10 minutes looking at the top decks---like, it feels as though Jund and Junk are stuck. Eldrazi Tron has warped this meta a lot, contrary to people thinking it's Grixis.
Power creep has been in Modern for some time in my opinion. Eldrazi Winter kinda answered that question for us I think.
I was running Night of Soul's Betrayal in my traditional Jund list's sideboard as well. I wonder if there is a creature that can accomplish a similar task that way when you bring it in, it can be tutored for with Traverse.
First off - nice writeup earlier today. Sounds like your suboptimal "claimless" version is working out pretty well. I haven't had a chance to try it out aside from goldfishing so far.
When I ran Night of Souls Betrayal I would typically bring it in against affinity, infect, and lingering souls / token type decks. Obviously, its good against all of these but most of those decks are ones where I want bob to live, too and I would be placed in that annoying situation of having dead cards in hand. If I'm terribly concerned about lingering souls and other spirit / soldier tokens I would probably use Illness in the Ranks now, especially if dropping to 19 lands. Yea, its decayable and only hits tokens - but for 1 mana I think I would be ok w that tradeoff.
I can't think of a creature that gives this effect, even if for a turn, in Jund colors off the top of my head but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Yea, in my abzan traverse I just run Lili Last Hope and call it a day anyway. Would do the same here.
edit:
I think that given no bolts as a t1 red requirement I'd still shift to Blooming Marsh as the fastland and just make the first fetch grab the Blood Crypt / Stomping Ground. Nothing would feel more awful than a Blackcleave Cliffs as my 1 land in the opener alongside a Traverse. As long as you just need a single red source to cast anything in the 75, it shouldn't be that much of an issue.
Every since I saw Williy's Abzan Traverse list, I've beem wanting to test it on a Jund shell.
I do have a question though, is Grim Flayer worth it? I mean he's a great beater on delirium enable, but when it's off, he's just not that good..In the Abzan shell he's better because Lingering Souls, you can ditch them to the bin and still generate a lot of value.
Have you guys considered something else? Perhaps the "stock" creature setup with 4 Goyfs, 4 Bobs and 3 Scoozes.
Tks mates!
UR Twin - RIP
Sulfur Elemental could do the trick, specifically against souls.
Thats why i am hesitant to get all in on delirium. On the other hand it makes things awkward at times.
Flayers seemed to work ok here in this list, still need to test more.
It's all about timing. DS Jund wanted delirium by turn 2-3 and were often playing tons of "bad cards" to do so (Tarfire, Bauble, Street Wraith etc.). This also left them vulnerable to GY hate since they'd still have these dead cards. This deck doesn't typically want delerium til turn 4+. It's also important to note that Flayer is often our best Claim//Fame target because a hasty 6 power trampler out of nowhere is pretty difficult to block efficiently.
Yeah these things all seem "fine". I think if you are truly wanting to have a dedicated hate card for decks with X/1's you'd chose something like this as your 1x sideboard slot since they get a lot better in traverse decks (like i plan to squeeze a Reclamation Sage somewhere in my SB because it can be tutored for). Of these 3 options, I'd likely choose Minister of Pain normally but with the increase of D&T/Mono-W Hatebears I could see the argument for Sulfur Elemental.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki