Flayer is actually very good against Hollow One, not very bad. Burning inquiry tends to give you early delirium and it matches up against early hollow ones and oversizes bloodghasts, stopping all their early game tempo dead in their tracks. It doesn't match up to zombie fish but you have goyf for that and GBx tends to grind better anyway.
I disagree on that assessment for the following reasons:
Hollow One is in general a combo-esque deck which is able to combine to different aspects of different decks:
A fast combo-esque start providing a clock which you would normally only expect from glass-canon like decks.
If the fast start doesn't work, this deck is by no means dead like a glass-canon. It just switches into grinding mode. And thats the crazy and strong asepct of the deck.
So in that sense, Hollow One combines the fast starts like you would expect from a glass canon deck, but still is able to grind through in case that doesn't work. So against Jund, Hollow One really does not need a fast start. I talked to several good Hollow One players and also from my experience playing against the deck I can tell, Hollow One outgrinds us pretty hard. You cannot keep up if you try to remove all their ever recurring threats with our one time removal spells. By my experience, Burning Inquiry will basically be not in the deck after game 1. Its a CA negative card, which they don't want in that matchup. Especially if they see Flayers this is an extra reason. I think you are a bit seeing it from the Abzan Traverse perspective, which is able to traverse for silverbullets there, but I think the situation is different in Jund. Flayers won't realistically be able to attack through Hollow Ones creature suite in Jund, which often makes it a chump blocker at best. Since Jund can also not activate deliirum on its own that easily (especially since LoTV is bad, you are loosing a card type after boarding as well pretty much) I think Flayer are almost only just bears from the Jund perspective. I do agree thoughz that Flayers are better against the deck if you are playing Abzan. But remember, this is the Jund perspective.
I do agree for the UW Control assessment, technically it is a game winning threat if it doesn't get answered, so I think its justified to upgrade that to good.
I think you would loose too many percentage points by having to mulligan hands which contains like Mountain, Plains and the a couple of Trophies. This seems overall quite awkward for its potential upside.
I think Jund's problem is not the missing grind, its the missing consistancy. So, while this build helps with grinding, its actually quite inconsistant in casting their spells, in addition to the already prevalent inconsistancy in finding the needed spells in the first place.
A 4 colour Jund list splashing Souls has been done before to say. But these were different times. And I think this is probably not the best direction for Jund to head when we are waiting for Trophy now.
Imo Leyline is just the strongest when you really want to beat Bridgevine and Hollow One. The problem is that you basically have no slight GY hate that you can board in in singletons as a flexible card. I am leaning towards either Spellbomb/Surgical or Leyline, I am not a fan of Cage right now since it does not cover all the bases. It doesn't prevent bridge, delving and dredging for example. Overall though I think Leyline is probably safest since its the most impact.
Guys, i have my huge modern tournament sunday (huge price pool :D) and i am pretty sure about my list up to now except on point :
leyline of the void or a mix between spellbomb/cage ?
I don't ask you what you play but what's your argument to choose leyline or not ?
The most obvious is the bridgevine deck, i think there will is just a few and more hollow one.
I don't play on MTGO but i see a lot of Jund lists run the 4 leyline of the void.
Thanks for you help
Per MTG Goldfish, only about 42% of Jund decks run 3 online, so it's by no means required or even common. I also don't even think it's optimal. The highest-finishing Jund list at GP Stockholm, Bergerot's who missed on breakers alone, ran zero Leylines: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1331227#online. Naonari Hoshide got 6th at GP HK and had zero Leylines too: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1331263#online. The 8-1 T8 MTGO PTQ list by O_danielakos also ran zero Leyline: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1306402#online. I'd lean towards the Extraction/Spellbomb package over Leyline in most lists. It's just more versatile for the different GY decks you are likely to encounter in Modern.
The primer is up-to-date again, as always. Added the comparizon of the creature suite, adjusted some numbers and added Trophy as a card for the deck. The decklist template might change according to whats gonna happen to the format.
Lets talk manabase when AT arrives. I think we want 5 basics, and dependent on the resurgeance of bgx decks, more creaturelands 4/5. But this opens the door to a lot of losses due to colorscrew. Not having double black turn 3, having color intensive sideboardcards like anger and finks being hard to cast turn 3 also
Is anyone else interested in Experimental Frenzy? We used to play Chandra which was 4 mana for 1 card per turn, this is 4 mana for several cards per turn. And Jund has a lot of ways to manipulate the top deck to dig past a second land for some truly absurd card advantage, with Liliana the Last Hope, Grim Flayer, and Fetchlands.
I think it's the sort of card that could make for a very powerful 1 or 2 of. For example, it runs away with the game in a board stall situation or against control.
Is anyone else interested in Experimental Frenzy? We used to play Chandra which was 4 mana for 1 card per turn, this is 4 mana for several cards per turn. And Jund has a lot of ways to manipulate the top deck to dig past a second land for some truly absurd card advantage, with Liliana the Last Hope, Grim Flayer, and Fetchlands.
I think it's the sort of card that could make for a very powerful 1 or 2 of. For example, it runs away with the game in a board stall situation or against control.
I think out of the deck manipulation tools only fetchland can count as consistant tools. All the others arent really reliable at all here. I think, Chandra is overall just way better. Chandra generates CA, whereas Experimental Frenzy does not. Remember that you still draw one card per turn which you can't play at all when the enchantment is out. For this, this card almost does nothing, it just changes the card you effectively get to play each turn around. On your own turn you have a little manipulation with fetchlands, but thats about it.
Not that I disagree with you - but you do get to, potentially, cast multiple cards from the top of your library every turn. It can be CA - but it obviously depends on the top of your deck.
Is anyone else interested in Experimental Frenzy? We used to play Chandra which was 4 mana for 1 card per turn, this is 4 mana for several cards per turn. And Jund has a lot of ways to manipulate the top deck to dig past a second land for some truly absurd card advantage, with Liliana the Last Hope, Grim Flayer, and Fetchlands.
I think it's the sort of card that could make for a very powerful 1 or 2 of. For example, it runs away with the game in a board stall situation or against control.
It seems to me one would want discard abilities to dump lands or other junk to use this. Only abilities from permanents could be used and folks are skimping on Lily these days.
Not that I disagree with you - but you do get to, potentially, cast multiple cards from the top of your library every turn. It can be CA - but it obviously depends on the top of your deck.
Yeah sure, however though, only potentially. It totally depends. So overall this card will not guarantee CA, like Chandra does for example.
I think out of the deck manipulation tools only fetchland can count as consistant tools. All the others arent really reliable at all here. I think, Chandra is overall just way better. Chandra generates CA, whereas Experimental Frenzy does not. Remember that you still draw one card per turn which you can't play at all when the enchantment is out. For this, this card almost does nothing, it just changes the card you effectively get to play each turn around. On your own turn you have a little manipulation with fetchlands, but thats about it.
The card you draw each turn, usually ends up being a land, since you can cast spells back to back until you've played a land from the top and hit another land. Then, mana permitting you can shuffle that away and play even more spells, and after that potentially use other tools to manipulate your library. What you typically draw will be something you don't want.
Some cards work very well like this. You can always cast discard, you can always cast a PW, you can always cast a creature, or something like Brutality, or Bolt your opponents face, or use a Kolaghans. You can't always cast a pure removal spell like Terminate or Dreadbore, but again... the deck has several potential ways to work around that.
That does not necessarily have to be case since you assume here that you always have the mana to cast spell after spell until you end up with a land on top. Plus, you cannot sequence the spells you draw. Like for example sometimes you want to play a discard spell to clear opposing removal/counter in order to stick a threat. If the top of your library is threat into discard, this won't work.
Overall, I can see some benefits, but I have to say, this card seems to dicey for me.
i tried a flayer jund to day i will will say it feels smooth. run 23 lands and 4 architects of will. this is not a budget, i went for architects of will because flayer often doesnt get delirium and architects of will really helps to hit land drops and not flood. also i went with architects because bauble is a bad cascade target and i've had games where i saw architect get by passed hit an important spell with bbe. i think it will be better to have a zero mana cantrip like street wraith but its too damaging. took out 1 discard 2 lands and 3rd ooze for architects of will.
That does not necessarily have to be case since you assume here that you always have the mana to cast spell after spell until you end up with a land on top. Plus, you cannot sequence the spells you draw. Like for example sometimes you want to play a discard spell to clear opposing removal/counter in order to stick a threat. If the top of your library is threat into discard, this won't work.
Overall, I can see some benefits, but I have to say, this card seems to dicey for me.
I'll try it to see if I can back my points up with results, but in the mean time I'll point out that sequencing matters a lot less when your spells all essentially cantrip.
should the land base be changed when we get assassins Trophy? thinking maybe running 1 or 2 treetop villages and only 1 or 2 raging ravines
Depends on the land count. On 24 lands, no, I don't think anything will change. In 25 land builds I could see 1-2 differences. But overall I don't think it would change much.
The only big thing is that basic forest gets better now, since when you drop terminate we can cast any 1 or 2 cost spells with the Blackcleave/Crypt + Forest combo now. However, the classic Swamp + Stomping Ground combo is still better, since it allows you to cast 2 one mana spells potentially.
I disagree on that assessment for the following reasons:
Hollow One is in general a combo-esque deck which is able to combine to different aspects of different decks:
- A fast combo-esque start providing a clock which you would normally only expect from glass-canon like decks.
- If the fast start doesn't work, this deck is by no means dead like a glass-canon. It just switches into grinding mode. And thats the crazy and strong asepct of the deck.
So in that sense, Hollow One combines the fast starts like you would expect from a glass canon deck, but still is able to grind through in case that doesn't work. So against Jund, Hollow One really does not need a fast start. I talked to several good Hollow One players and also from my experience playing against the deck I can tell, Hollow One outgrinds us pretty hard. You cannot keep up if you try to remove all their ever recurring threats with our one time removal spells. By my experience, Burning Inquiry will basically be not in the deck after game 1. Its a CA negative card, which they don't want in that matchup. Especially if they see Flayers this is an extra reason. I think you are a bit seeing it from the Abzan Traverse perspective, which is able to traverse for silverbullets there, but I think the situation is different in Jund. Flayers won't realistically be able to attack through Hollow Ones creature suite in Jund, which often makes it a chump blocker at best. Since Jund can also not activate deliirum on its own that easily (especially since LoTV is bad, you are loosing a card type after boarding as well pretty much) I think Flayer are almost only just bears from the Jund perspective. I do agree thoughz that Flayers are better against the deck if you are playing Abzan. But remember, this is the Jund perspective.I do agree for the UW Control assessment, technically it is a game winning threat if it doesn't get answered, so I think its justified to upgrade that to good.
Seems overall similar, I'll compare and contrast and adjust afterwards. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this topic as well!
Would it be too mana greedy to have a list that splashed white for lingering souls and stony silence? Something like:
4 inquisition of Kozilek
4 lightning bolt
3 Assassin’s Trophy
2 collective brutality
4 Liliana of the veil
1 Liliana, the last hope
3 lingering souls
Creatures 15
4 dark confidant
4 tarmogoyf
2 scavenging ooze
2 grim flayer
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Blackcleave cliffs
4 verdant catacombs
4 bloodstained mire
1 overgrown tomb
1 blood crypt
1 stomping ground
1 godless shrine
2 swamp
2 Forrest
1 mountain
1 plains
2 raging ravine
2 thoughtseize
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 stony silence
2 ancient grudge
2 collective brutality
2 kitchen finks
2 fulminator mage
1 Kalitas, traitor of ghet
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I think Jund's problem is not the missing grind, its the missing consistancy. So, while this build helps with grinding, its actually quite inconsistant in casting their spells, in addition to the already prevalent inconsistancy in finding the needed spells in the first place.
A 4 colour Jund list splashing Souls has been done before to say. But these were different times. And I think this is probably not the best direction for Jund to head when we are waiting for Trophy now.
Per MTG Goldfish, only about 42% of Jund decks run 3 online, so it's by no means required or even common. I also don't even think it's optimal. The highest-finishing Jund list at GP Stockholm, Bergerot's who missed on breakers alone, ran zero Leylines: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1331227#online. Naonari Hoshide got 6th at GP HK and had zero Leylines too: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1331263#online. The 8-1 T8 MTGO PTQ list by O_danielakos also ran zero Leyline: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1306402#online. I'd lean towards the Extraction/Spellbomb package over Leyline in most lists. It's just more versatile for the different GY decks you are likely to encounter in Modern.
I think it's the sort of card that could make for a very powerful 1 or 2 of. For example, it runs away with the game in a board stall situation or against control.
I think out of the deck manipulation tools only fetchland can count as consistant tools. All the others arent really reliable at all here. I think, Chandra is overall just way better. Chandra generates CA, whereas Experimental Frenzy does not. Remember that you still draw one card per turn which you can't play at all when the enchantment is out. For this, this card almost does nothing, it just changes the card you effectively get to play each turn around. On your own turn you have a little manipulation with fetchlands, but thats about it.
It seems to me one would want discard abilities to dump lands or other junk to use this. Only abilities from permanents could be used and folks are skimping on Lily these days.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Yeah sure, however though, only potentially. It totally depends. So overall this card will not guarantee CA, like Chandra does for example.
The card you draw each turn, usually ends up being a land, since you can cast spells back to back until you've played a land from the top and hit another land. Then, mana permitting you can shuffle that away and play even more spells, and after that potentially use other tools to manipulate your library. What you typically draw will be something you don't want.
Some cards work very well like this. You can always cast discard, you can always cast a PW, you can always cast a creature, or something like Brutality, or Bolt your opponents face, or use a Kolaghans. You can't always cast a pure removal spell like Terminate or Dreadbore, but again... the deck has several potential ways to work around that.
Overall, I can see some benefits, but I have to say, this card seems to dicey for me.
A deck could be built to abuse Experimental Frenzy but I don't think that deck is much like typical mid-range Jund.
Still, what would it hurt to try it out? Let us know if it flies.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I'll try it to see if I can back my points up with results, but in the mean time I'll point out that sequencing matters a lot less when your spells all essentially cantrip.
Depends on the land count. On 24 lands, no, I don't think anything will change. In 25 land builds I could see 1-2 differences. But overall I don't think it would change much.
The only big thing is that basic forest gets better now, since when you drop terminate we can cast any 1 or 2 cost spells with the Blackcleave/Crypt + Forest combo now. However, the classic Swamp + Stomping Ground combo is still better, since it allows you to cast 2 one mana spells potentially.