I prefer it to grafdiggers because it doesn't die to abrupt decay or ancient grudge
I do too when I need dedicated graveyard in 3 or more slots. More people like the flexibility of Nihil Spellbomb more. Grafdigger's Cage is specifically used to cut Collected Company and Chord of Calling decks. It also hurts reanimator-style decks as well.
SORRY ABOUT THE LONG POST, I DON'T KNOW HOW TO PUT (SHOW/HIDE) BUTTON. IF SOMEONE CAN TEACH ME I'LL EDIT THE POST.
I'm building a Sideboard Guide, and wanting some sugestions, I'm running Reid Duke maindeck list, and this sideboard, for an unexpected LGS meta
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Collective Brutality
2 Thoughtseize
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Damnation
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Nihil Spellbomb
8rack
OUT
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
IN
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
Abzan Company
OUT
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Liliana of the Veil
IN
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Damnation
1 Collective Brutality
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Kitchen Finks
Junk
OUT
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
IN
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Damnation
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Nihil Spellbomb
Ad Nauseam
OUT
2 Terminate
1 Fatal Push
1 Liliana the Last Hope
2 (OPEN SLOTS)
IN
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Kitchen Finks
Affinity
OUT
4 Dark Confidant
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Inquisition of Kozilek (when on draw)
IN
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Damnation
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Collective Brutality
American UWR Control
OUT
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Terminate
4 Lightning Bolt
2 (OPEN SLOTS)
IN
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Nihil Spellbomb
Amulet Titan
OUT
1 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Scavenging Ooze
IN
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Ancient Grudge
Bant Eldrazi
OUT
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
IN
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Damnation
2 Kitchen Finks
BR Hollow One
OUT
1 Fatal Push
4 Lightning Bolt
IN
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Thoughtseize
Bw Tokens
OUT
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Terminate
IN
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Damnation
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Kitchen Finks
Burn
OUT
4 Dark Confidant
4 Liliana of the Veil
IN
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Collective Brutality
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Grim Lavamancer
CoCo Elves
OUT
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Dark Confidant
IN
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Damnation
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Grafdigger's Cage
Jund Death’s Shadow
OUT
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Lightning Bolt
IN
1 Damnation
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Fulminator Mage
Eldrazi Tron
OUT
1 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt
IN
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Damnation
2 Kitchen Finks
Grixis Control
OUT
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fatal Push
3 (OPEN SLOTS)
IN
1 Collective Brutality
2 Kitchen Finks
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Thoughtseize
1 Nihil Spellbomb
Grixis Shadow
OUT
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Abrupt Decay
IN
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Explosivos Fabricados
1 Damnation
1 Nihil Spellbomb
Dredge
OUT
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Kolaghan’s Command
1 Abrupt Decay
IN
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Damnation
1 Grim lavamancer
1 Nihil Spellbomb
Hatebears
OUT
(STILL STUDYING WHAT BOARD OUT)
IN
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Damnation
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Kitchen Finks
Humans
OUT
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 (OPEN SLOTS)
IN
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Damnation
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Collective Brutality
1 Grim Lavamancer
Jeskai Tempo
OUT
1 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt Decay
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Terminate
IN
1 Collective Brutality
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Thoughtseize
1 Nihil Spellbomb
Jund
OUT
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
IN
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Damnation
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Kitchen Finks
Living End
OUT
1 Fatal Push
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan’s Command
IN
1 Damnation
2 Thoughtseize
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Collective Brutality
1 Nihil Spellbomb
Mardu Pyromancer
OUT
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lightning Bolt
IN
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Collective Brutality
2 Thoughtseize
1 Damnation
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
Merfolk
OUT
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Dark Confidant
IN
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Damnation
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Collective Brutality
I have to say I am rather more on the flood side, to be consistant in actually casting my spells. If I have a land heavy hand in 5 lands and one of the spells is BBE, that could be good enough.
It's about a 4.25% increase in having 4 lands on turn 4 if you play the 25th land. It's up to you to decide whether that math makes you want to play the 25th land or not. It's like a 1.7% increase that you'll get a 5 land opening hand, and a 4% decrease that you'll get an opener with less than 2 lands. There's no strict right or wrong answer from these numbers, it's just a matter of what consistency you want.
@victordlukka pls check the SB guide from the primer, its up to date. Then, if you want to have info about matchups not present in the Primer, let me know.
Thanks man. What about the sideplan guide against
8rack
Ad Nauseam
Amulet Titan
Bant Eldrazi
Bw Tokens
Bogles
CoCo Elves
Infect
Merfolk
Mono U Tron
Naya Zoo
Thanks for the help. I'm a big fan of your work in this thread.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
B 8rackB G Aggro Elves G UW Ad NauseamBR G Gr Tron R U U Tron U B Monoblack Vampires B BGR Jund BGR
I never really had a problem with the 23 land build pre-ban, but I like the 25 land with BBE and the higher curve the best now. I think the right answer between 24 and 25 just depends on what your curve is and what manlands you want to run. I also think we'll learn a lot more after a couple GP's/SCG events.
I topdecked eight lands in a row on Monday. I also died in one game due to having only Cliffs, TTV, Forest which allowed me to cast only one relevant spell per turn. I had to mull a ton as well. Variance is a thing, but my manabase pissed me the **** off all night. I play 24 lands.
I think the manabase's issues are bigger than 24 vs. 25 lands, though. Having NINE lands that CIPT on T4+ (Reid's list) seems real bad with BBE. I think four Cliffs is probably right, but I don't think Blooming Marsh and four manlands are correct on top of the playset of Blackcleave.
I swapped out the Liliana, the Last Hope in my SB for a third Kolaghan’s Command. I love her in my MB, but I don’t think she does enough as a SB card. Sideboard card’s are supposed to make waves, they’re supposed to be influential. They should give us a chance against bad MU’s or put the nail in the coffin for our decent MUs. I know she can repeatedly ping, as well as recur. But K-Command has similar modes and also REALLY shines in some MUs. That’s my reasoning.
I would appreciate some input on this. What are y’all’s thoughts?
Also, I drew the singleton Dreadbore I added to my deck a couple of times today. Once against Bant Knightfall where I had to waste open mana on my opponent’s turn because I couldn’t kill the Knight of the Reliquary he just played until my following turn due to Dreadbore being sorcery speed. Until that point I was playing a really good tempo game. The second time I had it in hand I was playing against GR Tron and my opponent played an Ugin, the Spirit Dragon on an open board and bolted me and passed. I gladly destroyed it on my turn for a meek BR. That felt pretty good. So really I have mixed emotions about Dreadbore.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN: BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG EDH: BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Got my simulator up and running, hopefully there will be some results tomorrow. My small test dataset I ran to make sure it was functioning didn't have any glaring errors that I caught so I think it's good. I kept it really simple, looking primarily at just mana development. The goal in my opinion should be to find the land count that best matches the curve, then other things can be answered later.
I'm running 4 decks at 140,000 games each, by my math that's about 15 hours of testing, so I can go over it tomorrow afternoon when I get home if it all worked correctly. The decks are (I think) 8 fetch 25 land, 8 fetch 24 land, 7 fetch 25 land, and 8 fetch 25 land no nissa with bob and bbe in there for good measure.
On a more traditional note today, I got some pickup games against Storm. I think we played a set of 5, and I won 5-0. Things I noticed were that Harsh Mentor continues to be bad, it's getting cut for another Ooze. I still like the idea of Mentor in the board though so it might not be totally gone yet. Duress saved me on multiple occasions. I'm over the Faeries, Nihil Spellbomb all the way. Choke did work and single handedly won two games.
So what I want to write about is pain free sequences. First up is Duress: IoK misses key cards in the match like Gift's Ungiven and Past in Flames. Thoughtseize can hit them, but it lets them get some free damage in. Duress hits it all, aside from creatures, and we play 15+ removal spells to deal with creatures. On multiple occasions today I would BBE into Duress, get a key card that IoK would have missed, and saved myself damage. In one of these instances I was racing against Goblin Tokens so the damage was quite relevant. I'm sold on Duress right now. My current discard package is 2x Brutality, 2x Duress, 1x IoK, 1x Thoughtseize. It works very well but I could see an argument for another IoK in there.
Second up is Twilight Mire. I added one to my list along with running 4 basics (2 swamp, 2 forest), plus the 4 fast lands. In most hands I'm able to get away with 2-3 points of land damage per game, which converts into other resources later. I am however noticing that red sources are a weakness. I'm on the 2 Blood Crypt build and it's still not enough red. I'm starting to wonder about a RG filterland. It wouldn't cast Liliana as well, but it would turn most of our other lands into red or green sources in the events we need to go deep on them.
Yeah sure, 5 land and a BBE may still be not good enough, but just saying, BBE more or less counts as 2 spells, which helps a bit.
That's true but I still wouldn't keep a hand with BBE and lands. I've done that and got punished for it. Not doing anything for the first 4 turns is way to slow even if you're playing against fair deck.
I have to say I am rather more on the flood side, to be consistant in actually casting my spells. If I have a land heavy hand in 5 lands and one of the spells is BBE, that could be good enough.
Wha... huh?
I think there was something lost in the conversion there. 5 lands and a BBE is a no brainer mull for me. I was originally talking about 5 lands, BBE AND and extra spell as 7 card hand. Especially if one of the lands is a manland, it could be enough, not saying it is enough, but could.
And wtyyy: I have had no problems against Burn thus far.
I prefer it to grafdiggers because it doesn't die to abrupt decay or ancient grudge
You need to dedicate to many cards for it to work, and thats a actually counterproductive for our gameplan, in having live topdecks. Spellbobm is never bad. Grafdigger's Cage has the advantage of bein high impact, while you only need 1 card of it.
Got my simulator up and running, hopefully there will be some results tomorrow. My small test dataset I ran to make sure it was functioning didn't have any glaring errors that I caught so I think it's good. I kept it really simple, looking primarily at just mana development. The goal in my opinion should be to find the land count that best matches the curve, then other things can be answered later.
I'm running 4 decks at 140,000 games each, by my math that's about 15 hours of testing, so I can go over it tomorrow afternoon when I get home if it all worked correctly. The decks are (I think) 8 fetch 25 land, 8 fetch 24 land, 7 fetch 25 land, and 8 fetch 25 land no nissa with bob and bbe in there for good measure.
On a more traditional note today, I got some pickup games against Storm. I think we played a set of 5, and I won 5-0. Things I noticed were that Harsh Mentor continues to be bad, it's getting cut for another Ooze. I still like the idea of Mentor in the board though so it might not be totally gone yet. Duress saved me on multiple occasions. I'm over the Faeries, Nihil Spellbomb all the way. Choke did work and single handedly won two games.
So what I want to write about is pain free sequences. First up is Duress: IoK misses key cards in the match like Gift's Ungiven and Past in Flames. Thoughtseize can hit them, but it lets them get some free damage in. Duress hits it all, aside from creatures, and we play 15+ removal spells to deal with creatures. On multiple occasions today I would BBE into Duress, get a key card that IoK would have missed, and saved myself damage. In one of these instances I was racing against Goblin Tokens so the damage was quite relevant. I'm sold on Duress right now. My current discard package is 2x Brutality, 2x Duress, 1x IoK, 1x Thoughtseize. It works very well but I could see an argument for another IoK in there.
Second up is Twilight Mire. I added one to my list along with running 4 basics (2 swamp, 2 forest), plus the 4 fast lands. In most hands I'm able to get away with 2-3 points of land damage per game, which converts into other resources later. I am however noticing that red sources are a weakness. I'm on the 2 Blood Crypt build and it's still not enough red. I'm starting to wonder about a RG filterland. It wouldn't cast Liliana as well, but it would turn most of our other lands into red or green sources in the events we need to go deep on them.
Great, am interested to see the results from your simulator.
Note that Storm is a great matchup for us anyway. I think on average it doesn't matter whether you have Duress, TS or IOK against them, as long as you do have any hand disruption. It might be a bit biasing to choose Duress specifically due to storm. Just want to mention that.
As for red sources, thats why we run Ravine over Treetop.
I played with 2 Last Hopes tonight and gosh in matchups she is good, she is really amazingly good. She eats Souls for lunch and shrinks problem creatures, making creature combat a headache for the opponent. She recurs Bloodbraid for a 3 for 1 and Fulminators, which let me leave a tron player with 1 land on turn 4. Her ult ends games. I am really impressed so far, and will stick with 2 for now.
Has anyone else wanted to run more fatal pushes MB, but can’t really justify cutting another card?
Fatal Push is just so good. It answers manlands and 90% of the creatures in modern. Using it turn 1 sets the opponent back, and other turns it can be played with other cards. It also makes us lose only 1 life off of a Bob flip, and we’re already running a bunch of fetches.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I felt the same way. I cut main Lily Last Hope for a second push. Ofc Lili goes to my SB. plus it lowers my curve since i play 24 lands and makes bob less painful. I'm thinking of cutting a bolt and running 3/3 bolt push split.
Note that Storm is a great matchup for us anyway. I think on average it doesn't matter whether you have Duress, TS or IOK against them, as long as you do have any hand disruption. It might be a bit biasing to choose Duress specifically due to storm. Just want to mention that.
As for red sources, thats why we run Ravine over Treetop.
I'm on a 3/1 split of Ravine and Treetop. What I like about Duress is that most decks have targets that IoK misses, and it's particularly relevant against decks where you need to value your life total. I'm not sure what the right mix is, but I'm pretty sure that in the current meta a Duress over either a TS or IoK is right. 2 Duress like I'm running is probably wrong, but 1 is for sure good. My logic though is the same as the idea that you would rather run 1 Doom Blade, 1 Go for the Throat, and 1 Ultimate Price than 3 of any of them. Diversifying answers and concentrating threats seems to be the way to go right now.
RG Filter is definitly a mistake, we can talk about the RB one, The first does not cast Decay, Termiante or Liliana, the later casts Termiante and Lili.
I think the best fiy for colored mana will always be just another fetch Land.
For what do you need all that Red Mana?
So my logic for this (and I could still easily be wrong) is that most shocklands we bring in produce black, so do fast lands, and swamps. Getting double black for Liliana, or even just for tempo is quite easy. There's only a handful of land sequences where you don't get double black and they involve Stomping Grounds/Forest. I feel like any filter should be a green land because of Scavenging Ooze, so basically you need green but you don't necessarily need to go overkill with black. Being able to produce double red isn't a horrible thing with some lines so that's how I'm getting to the idea of a RG filter.
Modern
B 8rack B
G Aggro Elves G
U W Ad Nauseam BR
G Gr Tron R
U U Tron U
B Monoblack Vampires B
BGR Jund BGR
I do too when I need dedicated graveyard in 3 or more slots. More people like the flexibility of Nihil Spellbomb more. Grafdigger's Cage is specifically used to cut Collected Company and Chord of Calling decks. It also hurts reanimator-style decks as well.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
this opening hand of 5 lands 1 bbe you would be inclined to keep is the perfect example of why we are losing to burn all the time on the 25 land build
Wha... huh?
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
Thanks man. What about the sideplan guide against
8rack
Ad Nauseam
Amulet Titan
Bant Eldrazi
Bw Tokens
Bogles
CoCo Elves
Infect
Merfolk
Mono U Tron
Naya Zoo
Thanks for the help. I'm a big fan of your work in this thread.
Modern
B 8rack B
G Aggro Elves G
U W Ad Nauseam BR
G Gr Tron R
U U Tron U
B Monoblack Vampires B
BGR Jund BGR
I think the manabase's issues are bigger than 24 vs. 25 lands, though. Having NINE lands that CIPT on T4+ (Reid's list) seems real bad with BBE. I think four Cliffs is probably right, but I don't think Blooming Marsh and four manlands are correct on top of the playset of Blackcleave.
I would appreciate some input on this. What are y’all’s thoughts?
Also, I drew the singleton Dreadbore I added to my deck a couple of times today. Once against Bant Knightfall where I had to waste open mana on my opponent’s turn because I couldn’t kill the Knight of the Reliquary he just played until my following turn due to Dreadbore being sorcery speed. Until that point I was playing a really good tempo game. The second time I had it in hand I was playing against GR Tron and my opponent played an Ugin, the Spirit Dragon on an open board and bolted me and passed. I gladly destroyed it on my turn for a meek BR. That felt pretty good. So really I have mixed emotions about Dreadbore.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
I'm running 4 decks at 140,000 games each, by my math that's about 15 hours of testing, so I can go over it tomorrow afternoon when I get home if it all worked correctly. The decks are (I think) 8 fetch 25 land, 8 fetch 24 land, 7 fetch 25 land, and 8 fetch 25 land no nissa with bob and bbe in there for good measure.
On a more traditional note today, I got some pickup games against Storm. I think we played a set of 5, and I won 5-0. Things I noticed were that Harsh Mentor continues to be bad, it's getting cut for another Ooze. I still like the idea of Mentor in the board though so it might not be totally gone yet. Duress saved me on multiple occasions. I'm over the Faeries, Nihil Spellbomb all the way. Choke did work and single handedly won two games.
So what I want to write about is pain free sequences. First up is Duress: IoK misses key cards in the match like Gift's Ungiven and Past in Flames. Thoughtseize can hit them, but it lets them get some free damage in. Duress hits it all, aside from creatures, and we play 15+ removal spells to deal with creatures. On multiple occasions today I would BBE into Duress, get a key card that IoK would have missed, and saved myself damage. In one of these instances I was racing against Goblin Tokens so the damage was quite relevant. I'm sold on Duress right now. My current discard package is 2x Brutality, 2x Duress, 1x IoK, 1x Thoughtseize. It works very well but I could see an argument for another IoK in there.
Second up is Twilight Mire. I added one to my list along with running 4 basics (2 swamp, 2 forest), plus the 4 fast lands. In most hands I'm able to get away with 2-3 points of land damage per game, which converts into other resources later. I am however noticing that red sources are a weakness. I'm on the 2 Blood Crypt build and it's still not enough red. I'm starting to wonder about a RG filterland. It wouldn't cast Liliana as well, but it would turn most of our other lands into red or green sources in the events we need to go deep on them.
I think there was something lost in the conversion there. 5 lands and a BBE is a no brainer mull for me. I was originally talking about 5 lands, BBE AND and extra spell as 7 card hand. Especially if one of the lands is a manland, it could be enough, not saying it is enough, but could.
And wtyyy: I have had no problems against Burn thus far.
You need to dedicate to many cards for it to work, and thats a actually counterproductive for our gameplan, in having live topdecks. Spellbobm is never bad. Grafdigger's Cage has the advantage of bein high impact, while you only need 1 card of it.
Great, am interested to see the results from your simulator.
Note that Storm is a great matchup for us anyway. I think on average it doesn't matter whether you have Duress, TS or IOK against them, as long as you do have any hand disruption. It might be a bit biasing to choose Duress specifically due to storm. Just want to mention that.
As for red sources, thats why we run Ravine over Treetop.
Fatal Push is just so good. It answers manlands and 90% of the creatures in modern. Using it turn 1 sets the opponent back, and other turns it can be played with other cards. It also makes us lose only 1 life off of a Bob flip, and we’re already running a bunch of fetches.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I'm on a 3/1 split of Ravine and Treetop. What I like about Duress is that most decks have targets that IoK misses, and it's particularly relevant against decks where you need to value your life total. I'm not sure what the right mix is, but I'm pretty sure that in the current meta a Duress over either a TS or IoK is right. 2 Duress like I'm running is probably wrong, but 1 is for sure good. My logic though is the same as the idea that you would rather run 1 Doom Blade, 1 Go for the Throat, and 1 Ultimate Price than 3 of any of them. Diversifying answers and concentrating threats seems to be the way to go right now.
So my logic for this (and I could still easily be wrong) is that most shocklands we bring in produce black, so do fast lands, and swamps. Getting double black for Liliana, or even just for tempo is quite easy. There's only a handful of land sequences where you don't get double black and they involve Stomping Grounds/Forest. I feel like any filter should be a green land because of Scavenging Ooze, so basically you need green but you don't necessarily need to go overkill with black. Being able to produce double red isn't a horrible thing with some lines so that's how I'm getting to the idea of a RG filter.