Tribal Zoo is very legit right now, I was playing it last night on MTGO. There's been some kind of list in almost all of the 5-0 League dumps since BBE was unbanned.
I've recently played this matchup a few times. Normally this is the kind of matchup that jund excels against, but it's actually not great. I think we side out dark confidant in this matchup, because their gameplan is to dome you with Tribal Flames and get hellbent. If you flip any card 3cmc or greater with a dark confidant, you are really just helping them. Scooze really excels in this matchup. Gains you life and gets bigger than their creatures. Once it's a 4/4 or greater, it's really hard for them to remove it. Kitchen Finks from the board is also really good.
In my experience it's been about 50/50. If they draw a bunch of BBEs, it's hard to win.
Working on that simulator I mentioned before. To make it work for Jund I need to make a couple small modifications and add new cards. Jund is a deck that's well suited to an AI playing it (this doesn't mean it's simple or anything, only that the cards for the most part aren't computationally complex) so I'm going to see what I can do about getting a fully functional AI up in the next couple weeks. It's not capable of giving 100% exact results because that depends so heavily on the opposing deck but it can give good outlines like 4 vs 6 discard, 24 vs 25 land, mana curves and so on.
On that note, I played the deck I listed a page or two ago in a 4 round event at our universities weekly Magic club last night, except I played 61 to try out Nissa. I played against GDS (2-1), GDS (2-0), Vengevine (2-0), and Abzan (2-1) for a 4-0. Stuff I noticed:
I was short black mana all night long, I think this was just due to variance though as my list has 17 black in it. Kessig sadly did not come up all night long, but Treetop was always good. It's very nice to be able to activate Treetop, attack, and still have the mana to play another card.
Nissa actually came up for the exact purpose she was in the deck which was to get me over the hump from 3 to 4 mana and in another game where I was at 5 mana I cast Bloodbraid Elf, cascaded into Nissa, got a Forest, played the Forest, and was able to get a 2 drop on the field, which was a Bob that then drew me into land #7 on the following turn to flip.
The Harsh Mentor hasn't been good enough, I think I'm going to cut it for another Ooze. Maybe it's worth keeping in the side though.
In the SB:
Glissa was fantastic against everything. I originally put her in the SB to deal with Eldrazi but she's fantastic at beating delve monsters, and Siege Rhinos too. Also has a great interaction with Kessig (but that didn't come up).
Nihil Spellbomb was good, but then again Faerie Macabre was good too. Given Glissa's optional text I might prefer all Spellbombs instead. I did get one game where I drew Spellbomb+Glissa against GDS and that was good for a free card every time they played a creature.
Dark Betrayal was good. Liliana's Betrayal is likely the stronger card but I didn't have one. Instant timing helped though.
Having Chandra+Liliana as two good ways to beat Lingering Souls was really nice.
May I ask you how you take notes during a match? I personally have always found it too be too stressful. Any tips on this?
When I take notes I use a two step procecss. The first step is during the game alongside life totals I write a brief annotation as to what caused the damage such as f (fetch), s (shock), h (hit), p (spell), and that's usually enough to jog my memory. After the round I write down my opening hands and any plays I want to remember to talk about later, or if I'm getting really detailed a short outline of the games.
Awesome! So do you have an extra book for notes in that case? Don't you fear that your opponent could read your opening hand from your notes?
I use a .3 mm pen and write in cursive, it's pretty hard to read upside down. If that concerns me though, I can mirror write, so I can write everything backwards, which between that and cursive is definitely unreadable. But for the most part I've gotten out of the habit of writing down cards during games.
Not sure if it's possible or not, but could you possibly run it with variations on the shocklands a few times after you get done? For example 1 of each, 2-1 split with a 5th or 6th basic once again alternating shocks and basics, 2-2 split with alternating shocks, and 2-1-1 splits alternating which shock has 2 for me after your done with the 24 or 25 calculation. Truthfully i have been noticing a lot of players in my area seeming to take out my red sources if they have a LD plan in the deck they are using. Mostly i am curious to see what manabase would be optimal via a simulator in a meta with PTE, GQ, Tech Edge, FoR, and LD creatures and spells.
EDIT:
@ FlyingDelver: Not sure exactly why, but a lot of people always seem to mulligan either very rarely keeping questionable hands or hardcore for a single hate card which then end up losing them the game. I was gonna ask if you would mind bringing back your Keep or mulligan scenario you had awhile back if you have the time.
Tribal Zoo is very legit right now, I was playing it last night on MTGO. There's been some kind of list in almost all of the 5-0 League dumps since BBE was unbanned.
I've recently played this matchup a few times. Normally this is the kind of matchup that jund excels against, but it's actually not great. I think we side out dark confidant in this matchup, because their gameplan is to dome you with Tribal Flames and get hellbent. If you flip any card 3cmc or greater with a dark confidant, you are really just helping them. Scooze really excels in this matchup. Gains you life and gets bigger than their creatures. Once it's a 4/4 or greater, it's really hard for them to remove it. Kitchen Finks from the board is also really good.
In my experience it's been about 50/50. If they draw a bunch of BBEs, it's hard to win.
I think I'm inclined to agree with siding out Bob. The stock lists are playing 14 burn spells, and I had multiple games where I was burning my opponent for 10+ damage. I think Fulminator is probably good against them because the tribal manabase is insanely fragile, with white probably being their most important color in the matchup. I'm not excited about Liliana, the Last Hope because it can't actually kill anything, and most of their creatures having 3+ toughness makes Grim Lavamancer pretty mediocre, as well. I think that our plan is probably to try to outclass their creatures with better ones and disrupt their mana. Decks like this have had me considering fitting a second Fatal Push into the sideboard.
Kalitas seems like the card we want against Tribal Zoo. He is bigger than their creatures, gains life, stops voice/finks from coming back, and creates 2/2s for us.
Maybe we run him in our sideboard as a 1 of?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
The uptick has a lot of value imo agianst control, since they cant overload on answers (counter, or removal), while we look for a thread. If we can get her to live after the ult the game is nearly over, unsless they draw lands first than spells, the other way around you just discard the spells with her. The Interaction with manlands Spsiegel discribed is very important too.
Aside from Snap Command and Some Spells (red in this case) for some turns we are taking nothing away. As soon as they draw one red source (wich they should have about 8 or so left depending on the list) all there cards are life again that they could bank in their hand. This means in my Opinion that it is a Tempo Play at Most, which is not good if we do not ahve preassure, and if we have Preassure (a manland) i think uptick is also better, since it protects the land from removal.
Also if they run Jace, the worst case scenario with Lili ult would be that they just slam him and we Loose, but if we have liliana on 7 we just juse her to get the value back and destroy Jace (and some Lands).
If we can take them down to 2 or less lands it is completly different, than i would totally go for it.
Well thats interesting. I guess maybe I was super unlucky then, because I got almost every time punished when I took Lili up to 7 loyalties and tried to hold her alive through her ultimate.
In the seldom case where I play against Grixis Control (not UW, due to Detention Sphere), my opponent has no manlands, and I have a Ravine ready to attack, I guess it makes sense to plus Lili. I am less inclined to do that against UWx Control, due to Detention Sphere off the top.
IDK, but guaranteeing to cut my opponent off a colour seems still valuable though. With Ravine it gets more tricky ofc. I can see why plusing would be better, but I dont think that ulting and taking him off a colour is a very loosing play either. If I cant take my opponent off a colour, then it is a waste, I agree in that case.
IIRC I drew the ravine either on the turn I ulted LOTV, or the turn after that. My notes are unclear. I know that I had no cards in hand at that point in time though.
Be that as it may, was I prioritizing his lands too much? Against control I get antsy when they get to a high land threshold so I wanted to bring his land count down. Probably a better idea to keep the LOTV ticking up. On an empty board, I should be keeping the LOTV around instead, I agree.
If I already have a Ravine in play, the correct play is to keep her around for sure.
Live and learn, I was punished with a loss so at least it helps me remember.
Well, since you knew the outcome, if you chose different piles with your ult, then you could have also probably won the game. I think the biggest mistake here in that case was to choose wrong piles, not to actually ulti her.
But its an interesting scenario, makes me also rethink my initial thoughts and reconsider them. Definitely new things to learn here!
@ FlyingDelver: Not sure exactly why, but a lot of people always seem to mulligan either very rarely keeping questionable hands or hardcore for a single hate card which then end up losing them the game. I was gonna ask if you would mind bringing back your Keep or mulligan scenario you had awhile back if you have the time.
Oh thats a great idea! Will definitely try to put more Keep or Mull Polls on the thread. As soon as I have gathered interesting hands, I will post them!
Tribal Zoo is very legit right now, I was playing it last night on MTGO. There's been some kind of list in almost all of the 5-0 League dumps since BBE was unbanned.
I've recently played this matchup a few times. Normally this is the kind of matchup that jund excels against, but it's actually not great. I think we side out dark confidant in this matchup, because their gameplan is to dome you with Tribal Flames and get hellbent. If you flip any card 3cmc or greater with a dark confidant, you are really just helping them. Scooze really excels in this matchup. Gains you life and gets bigger than their creatures. Once it's a 4/4 or greater, it's really hard for them to remove it. Kitchen Finks from the board is also really good.
In my experience it's been about 50/50. If they draw a bunch of BBEs, it's hard to win.
I think I'm inclined to agree with siding out Bob. The stock lists are playing 14 burn spells, and I had multiple games where I was burning my opponent for 10+ damage. I think Fulminator is probably good against them because the tribal manabase is insanely fragile, with white probably being their most important color in the matchup. I'm not excited about Liliana, the Last Hope because it can't actually kill anything, and most of their creatures having 3+ toughness makes Grim Lavamancer pretty mediocre, as well. I think that our plan is probably to try to outclass their creatures with better ones and disrupt their mana. Decks like this have had me considering fitting a second Fatal Push into the sideboard.
Zoo can certainly be a burn deck trying to win with creatures for the most part instead of spells. Since they pressure you very fast, taking out Bob is definitely the way to approach this matchup. You won't have much time to deploy the extra cards drawn from bob anyway. You can easily treat that matchup just like Burn for that reason.
Tribal Zoo is very legit right now, I was playing it last night on MTGO. There's been some kind of list in almost all of the 5-0 League dumps since BBE was unbanned.
I've recently played this matchup a few times. Normally this is the kind of matchup that jund excels against, but it's actually not great. I think we side out dark confidant in this matchup, because their gameplan is to dome you with Tribal Flames and get hellbent. If you flip any card 3cmc or greater with a dark confidant, you are really just helping them. Scooze really excels in this matchup. Gains you life and gets bigger than their creatures. Once it's a 4/4 or greater, it's really hard for them to remove it. Kitchen Finks from the board is also really good.
In my experience it's been about 50/50. If they draw a bunch of BBEs, it's hard to win.
I think I'm inclined to agree with siding out Bob. The stock lists are playing 14 burn spells, and I had multiple games where I was burning my opponent for 10+ damage. I think Fulminator is probably good against them because the tribal manabase is insanely fragile, with white probably being their most important color in the matchup. I'm not excited about Liliana, the Last Hope because it can't actually kill anything, and most of their creatures having 3+ toughness makes Grim Lavamancer pretty mediocre, as well. I think that our plan is probably to try to outclass their creatures with better ones and disrupt their mana. Decks like this have had me considering fitting a second Fatal Push into the sideboard.
I've cut fatal push completely from the main and side to try and maximize BBE power, but I think it's a mistake. We want to have as many 1-mana removal spells as possible against decks like this and stuff like affinity, infect, zoo, etc. Against those matchups, I felt disadvantaged when I didn't have a bolt in the top 10 cards. So I'm going to move to 1 fatal push main again, and I think 1 more in the board like you said.
I'm a little less worried about discard being a bad cascade target because I would expect to side it out in matchups where the full 6 is more situational. Post board, if I'm playing 6+ discard spells I'm likely playing against combo or control, where them not having cards in hand is generally a winning position anyway. Modern is such a wide open format that I don't see how you can expect to play a reactive deck without either discard or counter magic, and despite BBE giving us some real teeth in closing out the game we are still a reactive deck. Solving the discard puzzle has really felt like the biggest challenge in adopting BBE.
Not sure if it's possible or not, but could you possibly run it with variations on the shocklands a few times after you get done? For example 1 of each, 2-1 split with a 5th or 6th basic once again alternating shocks and basics, 2-2 split with alternating shocks, and 2-1-1 splits alternating which shock has 2 for me after your done with the 24 or 25 calculation. Truthfully i have been noticing a lot of players in my area seeming to take out my red sources if they have a LD plan in the deck they are using. Mostly i am curious to see what manabase would be optimal via a simulator in a meta with PTE, GQ, Tech Edge, FoR, and LD creatures and spells.
It won't be possible in this run. Tapped/untapped is completely dependent on cards in hand and your curve, and to implement that it means you need a full fledged decklist so that you can play around holes in your curve. Without getting too indepth the logic behind tapped/untapped also involves comparing your clock if you shock and use that mana to the opponents clock+known information (known information being pretty relevant in Jund) and only shocking if it makes a difference. There's also an issue with fetch sequencing in order to grab basics that can get pretty complex because to do it properly you need to sequence several turns in advance rather than going turn to turn. In short, the question you're asking is solvable but it's not currently within my programs capabilities. Eventually, I'll be able to answer it but the timeline on that is looking like months depending on my schedule.
As an update to the program, I'm going to try and run an initial dataset tonight to make sure there's no bugs, and then run the full thing after a couple more cards are implemented. I had to think about some things like including Bloodbraid Elf or not. BBE isn't a particularly hard card to program, I just had to figure out if it was relevant first and decided it is. The reason for this is that BBE is a net negative on future mana growth since it will bottom several lands (and additional BBE's), thereby reducing your chances of drawing lands until you shuffle. So what I've decided on is testing between 7 and 9 fetches, 24-26 lands, and 0-1 nissas. If I test every combination that will be 18 decklists. The computer I run this on is capable of around 50 games per seconds if memory serves and I would like to run it for between 10 and 14 hours. If I run it for 14 hours that would give me a dataset of 140,000 games per deck. Before I can run it I need to program Dark Confidant and Nissa still. Bob is very simple, Nissa is much more complex and is going to take some thinking but I'll probably just treat her as a 2/2 Wood Elves and ignore the PW side for now since the main question being answered at the moment is about mana growth rather than anything else. I should be able to run it either Friday or Saturday night and have a dataset+results on Sunday.
@ FlyingDelver: Not sure exactly why, but a lot of people always seem to mulligan either very rarely keeping questionable hands or hardcore for a single hate card which then end up losing them the game. I was gonna ask if you would mind bringing back your Keep or mulligan scenario you had awhile back if you have the time.
My simulator should be able to give some mulligan information too once a full fledged decklist is built. It's actually well suited to doing such a thing because you can analyze the similarities between the best performing hands and the worst performing hands, and build an iterative process that mulligans the weaker hands to a set of predefined rules (I use a card scoring system) that can score different based on your mulligan count. After a few passes it's possible to build a generic set of rules that can weight for example a bad 6 vs an average 5. It's not perfect because you still have to use some judgement based on matchup and unaccounted for cards like SB options but it provides a nice dataset to build a baseline off of.
Once I've got that up and running, I wouldn't actually mind playing it off some keep or mulligan scenarios with other people.
Hi doods. I've made the question in the modern general forum but a curse word and overall lack of fondness about being thoughtseized and edicted killed the chances of getting enough insight. Figured out here was the best place since I'm on Jund colors anyway.
What's your sideboard strategy when you're expecting Leyline of Sanctity from the sideboard? We're not burn but a turn zero Leyline can turn a decent hand of discard spell + Liliana into an utter disaster.
I suspect that people at my area overrate it since I've seen it come against me from Bogles, Abzan midrange and Lantern. Now that I think it, I should side out discard against Abzan because of it being a bad topdeck in the attrition war and against Lantern it's all about blowing up those bridges and they go hellbent quickly. Bogles is the one deck where discard is at its best but the Leyline turns that plan on its head. Only Nature's claim is fast enough to consider in order to keep the plan A of targeting them but sounds narrow and not completely consistent. Do you have a better plan that bypasses their white enchantment? I love Engineered Explosives here but would like something else. Barter in blood bypasses the targeting, but on turn 4 can be beaten by the best draws.
re: javert
if you are expecting leyline of sanctity I swap out abrupt decay and bring in maelstrom pulse and krosan grips.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard // nRG Aggro
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
Played two practice rounds at my LGS today. One against GW Tron, another against Infect. I ended up beating Tron which felt pretty good. I’ve always hated that MU. I found the right disruption and he couldn’t find enough Tron stuff quickly enough. BBE felt really good here. Infect was a blowout, of course.
I’ve been considering a few changes to my deck and I’d like to get y’all’s opinion on them.
-Speaking of Maelstrom Pulse, how do y’all feel about a second one in the SB? I feel very uncomfortable with how few cards we have to deal with pesky enchantments and other troublesome permanents (like the aforementioned Walkers). The lack of answers to stuff like that is already starting to bite me in the ass. Y’all may not be experiencing the same difficulties.
-Another card I’m considering running in the board is Deglamer. It was a SB staple for me when I played Jund a few years ago and I don’t think it’s gotten any less practical. It has its obvious merits in that it’s sort of a catch all against so many decks. Not as great at hitting artifacts or enchantments as Ancient Grudge or Back to Nature (another consideration for this slot), respectively, but it’s useful in a lot of MU’s and has the added benefit of being able to tuck pesky Wurmcoil Engines, Keranos, God of Storms, and Darksteel Citadels.
-Last but not least, I saw someone mentioned a page or three back replacing the Liliana, the Last Hope in the SB with the third Kolaghan’s Command. I couldn’t find the post to quote the thread goer. I am super interested in this idea and would like to discuss it further. I don’t plan on taking LtLH out of my maindeck anytime soon, but I don’t feel like the second in the side is essential. I think K-Command covers a lot of the same angles as Lili, but gives me a little extra ‘oomph’ against Lantern, Robots, and Tron.
I would really appreciate any input. Y’all have been great in the past to head off or quell any bad ideas of mine in regard to deck-building and lines of play, as well as to encourage any good ideas.
Thanks!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN: BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG EDH: BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Hi doods. I've made the question in the modern general forum but a curse word and overall lack of fondness about being thoughtseized and edicted killed the chances of getting enough insight. Figured out here was the best place since I'm on Jund colors anyway.
What's your sideboard strategy when you're expecting Leyline of Sanctity from the sideboard? We're not burn but a turn zero Leyline can turn a decent hand of discard spell + Liliana into an utter disaster.
I suspect that people at my area overrate it since I've seen it come against me from Bogles, Abzan midrange and Lantern. Now that I think it, I should side out discard against Abzan because of it being a bad topdeck in the attrition war and against Lantern it's all about blowing up those bridges and they go hellbent quickly. Bogles is the one deck where discard is at its best but the Leyline turns that plan on its head. Only Nature's claim is fast enough to consider in order to keep the plan A of targeting them but sounds narrow and not completely consistent. Do you have a better plan that bypasses their white enchantment? I love Engineered Explosives here but would like something else. Barter in blood bypasses the targeting, but on turn 4 can be beaten by the best draws.
Bogles players often main a couple of Leylines and usually run at least 3 in the 75, usually 4. Lantern players also always have some number of Leyline in the side.
Field of Ruin beats Ghost Quarter right now and I don't even know if you wanna run that to begin with. Glissa is cute but she doesn't impact the board enough to warrant a maindeck slot. Ratchet Bomb is weak. Rest seems pretty standard fare.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I've recently played this matchup a few times. Normally this is the kind of matchup that jund excels against, but it's actually not great. I think we side out dark confidant in this matchup, because their gameplan is to dome you with Tribal Flames and get hellbent. If you flip any card 3cmc or greater with a dark confidant, you are really just helping them. Scooze really excels in this matchup. Gains you life and gets bigger than their creatures. Once it's a 4/4 or greater, it's really hard for them to remove it. Kitchen Finks from the board is also really good.
In my experience it's been about 50/50. If they draw a bunch of BBEs, it's hard to win.
Not sure if it's possible or not, but could you possibly run it with variations on the shocklands a few times after you get done? For example 1 of each, 2-1 split with a 5th or 6th basic once again alternating shocks and basics, 2-2 split with alternating shocks, and 2-1-1 splits alternating which shock has 2 for me after your done with the 24 or 25 calculation. Truthfully i have been noticing a lot of players in my area seeming to take out my red sources if they have a LD plan in the deck they are using. Mostly i am curious to see what manabase would be optimal via a simulator in a meta with PTE, GQ, Tech Edge, FoR, and LD creatures and spells.
EDIT:
@ FlyingDelver: Not sure exactly why, but a lot of people always seem to mulligan either very rarely keeping questionable hands or hardcore for a single hate card which then end up losing them the game. I was gonna ask if you would mind bringing back your Keep or mulligan scenario you had awhile back if you have the time.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
I think I'm inclined to agree with siding out Bob. The stock lists are playing 14 burn spells, and I had multiple games where I was burning my opponent for 10+ damage. I think Fulminator is probably good against them because the tribal manabase is insanely fragile, with white probably being their most important color in the matchup. I'm not excited about Liliana, the Last Hope because it can't actually kill anything, and most of their creatures having 3+ toughness makes Grim Lavamancer pretty mediocre, as well. I think that our plan is probably to try to outclass their creatures with better ones and disrupt their mana. Decks like this have had me considering fitting a second Fatal Push into the sideboard.
Maybe we run him in our sideboard as a 1 of?
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Well thats interesting. I guess maybe I was super unlucky then, because I got almost every time punished when I took Lili up to 7 loyalties and tried to hold her alive through her ultimate.
In the seldom case where I play against Grixis Control (not UW, due to Detention Sphere), my opponent has no manlands, and I have a Ravine ready to attack, I guess it makes sense to plus Lili. I am less inclined to do that against UWx Control, due to Detention Sphere off the top.
IDK, but guaranteeing to cut my opponent off a colour seems still valuable though. With Ravine it gets more tricky ofc. I can see why plusing would be better, but I dont think that ulting and taking him off a colour is a very loosing play either. If I cant take my opponent off a colour, then it is a waste, I agree in that case.
Well, since you knew the outcome, if you chose different piles with your ult, then you could have also probably won the game. I think the biggest mistake here in that case was to choose wrong piles, not to actually ulti her.
But its an interesting scenario, makes me also rethink my initial thoughts and reconsider them. Definitely new things to learn here!
How do you feel in such a case vs a white based Control deck? Do you still plus her even if they can topdeck a Detention Sphere?
I agree about the Ravine + LoTV combo. But without Ravine, I personally would say ulting and taking them off red is more correct then plussing.
In my experienced I did get punished soo often by not ulting, which makes my viewpoint a little bit biased towards going for the ulti I have to say.
Oh thats a great idea! Will definitely try to put more Keep or Mull Polls on the thread. As soon as I have gathered interesting hands, I will post them!
Zoo can certainly be a burn deck trying to win with creatures for the most part instead of spells. Since they pressure you very fast, taking out Bob is definitely the way to approach this matchup. You won't have much time to deploy the extra cards drawn from bob anyway. You can easily treat that matchup just like Burn for that reason.
Modern: Mono U Tron, Ajundi, Ad Nauseam, TITI Moon, GR Ponza, 5C Humans
Legacy: Lands, Mono Red Sneak, 4C Loam
Kalitas is an option to run, but it has a weakpoint that its basically not good vs Control decks, which are also popular due to Jace.
https://twitter.com/DutchOpenSeries/status/968587996743241728
We got Jund on first place.
I've cut fatal push completely from the main and side to try and maximize BBE power, but I think it's a mistake. We want to have as many 1-mana removal spells as possible against decks like this and stuff like affinity, infect, zoo, etc. Against those matchups, I felt disadvantaged when I didn't have a bolt in the top 10 cards. So I'm going to move to 1 fatal push main again, and I think 1 more in the board like you said.
Modern: Mono U Tron, Ajundi, Ad Nauseam, TITI Moon, GR Ponza, 5C Humans
Legacy: Lands, Mono Red Sneak, 4C Loam
I have no clue if 25 will be the right call, or if a 5th discard and 1x collective brutality is in the mix.
It won't be possible in this run. Tapped/untapped is completely dependent on cards in hand and your curve, and to implement that it means you need a full fledged decklist so that you can play around holes in your curve. Without getting too indepth the logic behind tapped/untapped also involves comparing your clock if you shock and use that mana to the opponents clock+known information (known information being pretty relevant in Jund) and only shocking if it makes a difference. There's also an issue with fetch sequencing in order to grab basics that can get pretty complex because to do it properly you need to sequence several turns in advance rather than going turn to turn. In short, the question you're asking is solvable but it's not currently within my programs capabilities. Eventually, I'll be able to answer it but the timeline on that is looking like months depending on my schedule.
As an update to the program, I'm going to try and run an initial dataset tonight to make sure there's no bugs, and then run the full thing after a couple more cards are implemented. I had to think about some things like including Bloodbraid Elf or not. BBE isn't a particularly hard card to program, I just had to figure out if it was relevant first and decided it is. The reason for this is that BBE is a net negative on future mana growth since it will bottom several lands (and additional BBE's), thereby reducing your chances of drawing lands until you shuffle. So what I've decided on is testing between 7 and 9 fetches, 24-26 lands, and 0-1 nissas. If I test every combination that will be 18 decklists. The computer I run this on is capable of around 50 games per seconds if memory serves and I would like to run it for between 10 and 14 hours. If I run it for 14 hours that would give me a dataset of 140,000 games per deck. Before I can run it I need to program Dark Confidant and Nissa still. Bob is very simple, Nissa is much more complex and is going to take some thinking but I'll probably just treat her as a 2/2 Wood Elves and ignore the PW side for now since the main question being answered at the moment is about mana growth rather than anything else. I should be able to run it either Friday or Saturday night and have a dataset+results on Sunday.
My simulator should be able to give some mulligan information too once a full fledged decklist is built. It's actually well suited to doing such a thing because you can analyze the similarities between the best performing hands and the worst performing hands, and build an iterative process that mulligans the weaker hands to a set of predefined rules (I use a card scoring system) that can score different based on your mulligan count. After a few passes it's possible to build a generic set of rules that can weight for example a bad 6 vs an average 5. It's not perfect because you still have to use some judgement based on matchup and unaccounted for cards like SB options but it provides a nice dataset to build a baseline off of.
Once I've got that up and running, I wouldn't actually mind playing it off some keep or mulligan scenarios with other people.
What's your sideboard strategy when you're expecting Leyline of Sanctity from the sideboard? We're not burn but a turn zero Leyline can turn a decent hand of discard spell + Liliana into an utter disaster.
I suspect that people at my area overrate it since I've seen it come against me from Bogles, Abzan midrange and Lantern. Now that I think it, I should side out discard against Abzan because of it being a bad topdeck in the attrition war and against Lantern it's all about blowing up those bridges and they go hellbent quickly. Bogles is the one deck where discard is at its best but the Leyline turns that plan on its head. Only Nature's claim is fast enough to consider in order to keep the plan A of targeting them but sounds narrow and not completely consistent. Do you have a better plan that bypasses their white enchantment? I love Engineered Explosives here but would like something else. Barter in blood bypasses the targeting, but on turn 4 can be beaten by the best draws.
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
if you are expecting leyline of sanctity I swap out abrupt decay and bring in maelstrom pulse and krosan grips.
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
I’ve been considering a few changes to my deck and I’d like to get y’all’s opinion on them.
-I’m pretty sure I’m going to replace one of my Terminates with a Dreadbore. Between Karn Liberated, Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Gideon, Ally of Zendikar, and Elspeth, Sun’s Champion, I don’t think this is a bad move at all. Pretty much every one of those cards except Jace is very hard to overcome once they land. Elspeth, for example, is a nightmare. It would be nice to have something other than Maelstrom Pulse to deal with them.
-Speaking of Maelstrom Pulse, how do y’all feel about a second one in the SB? I feel very uncomfortable with how few cards we have to deal with pesky enchantments and other troublesome permanents (like the aforementioned Walkers). The lack of answers to stuff like that is already starting to bite me in the ass. Y’all may not be experiencing the same difficulties.
-Another card I’m considering running in the board is Deglamer. It was a SB staple for me when I played Jund a few years ago and I don’t think it’s gotten any less practical. It has its obvious merits in that it’s sort of a catch all against so many decks. Not as great at hitting artifacts or enchantments as Ancient Grudge or Back to Nature (another consideration for this slot), respectively, but it’s useful in a lot of MU’s and has the added benefit of being able to tuck pesky Wurmcoil Engines, Keranos, God of Storms, and Darksteel Citadels.
-Last but not least, I saw someone mentioned a page or three back replacing the Liliana, the Last Hope in the SB with the third Kolaghan’s Command. I couldn’t find the post to quote the thread goer. I am super interested in this idea and would like to discuss it further. I don’t plan on taking LtLH out of my maindeck anytime soon, but I don’t feel like the second in the side is essential. I think K-Command covers a lot of the same angles as Lili, but gives me a little extra ‘oomph’ against Lantern, Robots, and Tron.
I would really appreciate any input. Y’all have been great in the past to head off or quell any bad ideas of mine in regard to deck-building and lines of play, as well as to encourage any good ideas.
Thanks!
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
The Abzan player is making a dumb mistake.
Field of Ruin beats Ghost Quarter right now and I don't even know if you wanna run that to begin with. Glissa is cute but she doesn't impact the board enough to warrant a maindeck slot. Ratchet Bomb is weak. Rest seems pretty standard fare.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki