It's just a test. Reid duke advocates not running boardwipes because it's so tempo negative. I'm going to try it out.
I really wanted to play a 3rs CB but then I ran into a RB moon deck and realised I needed better cards for when I do run into midrange matchups. Huntmaster could turn into something else, I'll see.
Every single list is running 3x Ravines. It's really not so bad.
My results with the list were so so yesterday, MTGO was giving me some really awful opening hands yesterday.
I actually did not like Thrun in the side of Jund, where as I liked Thrun in the side of Junk.
I was also running into quite a few heavy removal decks and bad matchups that involved lingering souls.
I wonder if the mardu decks are better than Jund and Junk at this point, the deck hasn't felt beatable at all with both decks.
I'm actually quite undecided on the sideboard.
Grim Lavamancer killed like 5 creatures by himself in one game. The only time I wished he was a boardwipe was against the mardu deck.
A part of me was missing the 3x CB/3x Fulminator combo, but a lot of people have been writing about how they wouldn't have won without BM in this meta.
So I was staring at Mtggoldfish and was deciding, "what does a jund deck want to look like in an open field".
I went back and read Reid Duke's last major jund article, which was a while ago. He says Jund is the deck you want to bust out when you want to prey on small creature decks. What are we really preying on besides Humans and Affinity for that?
He also said he wasn't a huge fan of playing snapcaster decks, since it ranges from the 45% to 55%
Jund in the traditional sense doesn't look well suited.
Right now, I have to believe that if you want to play Jund you have to go the route that wants to play the Rabble-master plan with Moons, but the problem is we're seeing an influx of cards playing bolt now.
I'm actually wondering if the meta has slowed down briefly enough that Junk should heavily be considered instead, until things change of course.
I'm a huge advocate of GBx players not being stubborn and refusing to only be on the jund or junk side, they're so interchangeable to me that players should be flexible.
The Jeskai craze really slowed this meta down for a time being.
There's going to be an influx of decks like Dredge and big mana to take advantage of this, so you could next level those decks but you also really have to count on seeing some slow and grindy decks, too.
I don't believe straight GB rock is a better than Jund or Junk, even if it did well at Frankfurt. Losing the third color is not worth it. I think I will test it out though, I actually ordered field of ruins to play with.
GB Rock could be a predatory in-between, we'll see.
I think the GB rocks going 4x thoughtseize is on the wrong track, apparently a lot of people were jamming burn at the Open, I think this is a massive mistake to make, even with the meta slowed down.
I agree that Abzan is the better positioned deck right now. Jund just lacks the raw card advantage that other midrange and control decks are able to pack right now, while also being bad against big mana decks. I don't think that there's a reason to play Jund until BBE gets unbanned (other than pure preference), but I'm also kind of medium on Abzan, as well. I think that it's better positioned than Jund is, but I'm still not super excited about registering either deck for a large tournament because of the looming presence of big mana. That being said, I think that a list like Reid's that's extremely conservative with the white splash is the right way to go, if you're looking to go. I have a really hard time getting behind Murderous Cut though, my preference would be to try to find room for 2 Path to Exile in the 75, if not the main.
It's a weird time to play B/G/x, it feels like all of the decks are close but not quite there.
"As much as I love the deck, I don’t think I can recommend Jund right now. It’s simply not the right time for it. It’s relatively low on raw power, and it’s not strong enough against the big mana decks, control decks, or in the midrange mirrors. Keep it on the shelf until Humans and Collected Company rise in popularity."
Probably the most important sentence in the whole article.
Abzan and DS are simply better decks nowadays, but there might come some time in the future where Jund can shine again.
However, I do like that his list included a Hazoret, she has also impressed me from my testing. No Blood Moon and 24 lands is a no brainer for me, although I can see why many lists run it theses days, because it seems comfortable. I am on Reid's side here when he says: Blood Moon does not belong to Jund.
I played Reid's Abzan list a few weeks ago, except I left out murderous cut and replaced it with path. I wouldn't be against a deck like his, except I'd shove 2x paths in there.
I'm sad no one has tested my Junk deck, it's legit despite the greedy Gavony.
It may just not be the time to play BGx period. It feels like BGx is just missing one ingredient but I can't put my finger on it. I'm sure BBE would invigorate this deck again fixing the raw power and CA it's lacking.
There's some talk that BBE invalidates all other GBx decks and decreases the diversity of the 4 drops---but is GBx even a serious contender? People saying all that sound like those who have no clue about the archetype at all.
I will say one thing, I wish Junk had a Grim lavamancer. I would possibly replace damnation/Tendrils/EE for it.
I'm glad Reid actually addressed my comment from a few weeks ago in his article, I asked if he could at least acknowledge the Rabblemaster decklists and he did. He was very against Blood Moon, ok with Rabblemasters. What surprised me is how much he liked Hazoret, I didn't see that coming. I could see him playing her as a 2 of; I say that because of how he tested Chandra.
I'm not really sure Reid will play a non shadow midrange deck at the pro-tour though. I think he's playing Abzan in modern events to conceal what he'll play at the PT, which I don't blame him for, there's serious money on the line.
My guess is Reid will either play Storm, Elves or a shadow deck of some sort. He didn't look comfortable playing Grixis Shadow though, so either he'll test it a ton or prefer the 4C shadow deck.
@Spsiegel for what it's worth, if I was going to play Abzan I would play a list very close to yours, I've just felt much better playing Death Shadow over the last couple months. I've felt much closer in power-level to other decks, and there are some absurd nut draws that Shadow is capable of where there's just literally nothing your opponent can do to stop you. I think that the current future of B/G/x involves Death's Shadow, barring some unforeseen bannings/unbannings or new cards.
I was really surprised by how uncomfortable Reid seemed playing Grixis Shadow compared to the 5c version. It's funny how two different flavors of the same strategy can play out so differently in practice. Maybe Grixis and 5c Shadow are replacing Jund/Junk as the new B/G/x sister decks?
I think that Reid is too generally conservative with his mana bases to register a 5 color deck for the PT, but I could easily see him registering a 4c version of Shadow.
Yeah, he seemed uncomfortable with the deck for sure. To be fair, Grixis Shadow is one of the hardest constructed decks ever. He mastered Miracles in legacy so I'm certain he'd pick up Grixis with the reps.
It's possible that the Shadow decks really do just flat out replace Jund and Junk barring a ban/unban or major new card.
Real talk though, Fish, why aren't you playing Grixis? It's the better deck than 5C/4C Shadow. You just can't afford the snapcasters and tarns?
Shadow decks are incredibly poorly positioned in my store. The deck seems even more worrisome to run with Azcanta of all flavors on the rise and Jeskai decks, both versions, postured.
Surely Reid Duke see's this, too.
I really wish Grim Lavamancer could work in the Shadow deck. I was massively impressed with Grim Lavamancer in Jund today and yesterday. I had a ton of games where it was so much better than anger. I did struggle with Jund in the midrange matches though.
I don't know what GBx/Shadow deck to play. I've been testing all forms of GBx this week. Tonight or tomorrow I'm going to test Rock. Tomorrow I'm going to look into the Mardu deck, too, I think it's getting less attention than deserved by the interactive players opting to not play grixis shadow.
Literally that I don’t have Snapcasters and Tarns. I’ve put off playing the deck at all until this point because I wanted to explore all of the options available to me with the cards I currently have. I’ve only been able to get in one league online so far, but I expected the Tron matchup to feel more favorable. I think I definitely prefer the 4-5 color version there. I’m also surprised by how much it wasn’t an exaggeration when people talk about how hard it can be to find a threat.
When I play the deck I can't find a threat, when I play against it and have them grinded down with LOTV, they topdeck 2 shadows, a k-command and a gurmag and beat me down
Just don't make the mistake that Grixis is midrange---it's not, it's a tempo deck.
When I play the deck I can't find a threat, when I play against it and have them grinded down with LOTV, they topdeck 2 shadows, a k-command and a gurmag and beat me down
Just don't make the mistake that Grixis is midrange---it's not, it's a tempo deck.
It's definitely some kind of hybrid between Midrange and Tempo - more often than not it's Tempo for sure though. I've been lucky with (and against) it so far as I've not had any issues piloting it, however, I do play a lot of Legacy where decks often function more on a Tempo basis. Having said that, I prefer running Jund as it's just my preferred play style, I don't care much whether I win or lose as I enjoy playing the deck - although, to be fair, I've not been doing badly. I love Hazoret the Fervent, it's a fast clock against decks we need to be fast against and is a great wall against the decks we need to be defensive against (it also provides some useful reach) but my meta has been packing lots of hate for it recently in Path to Exile and Dismember - I don't blame them.
Have you tested two copies of Hazoret in the main yet?
I tested 1 Hazoret yesterday and was impressed. It straight up beat a Jund Shadow and Ponza deck, I landed it against some creature heavy deck, too, but I was already ahead
I think Hazoret is a FANTASTIC addition. It pairs well with the general plan, LOTV and has an added bonus for Lantern.
Playing 2x copies scare me though
I basically played Reid's version of the deck.
I haven't tested 2x Goblin Rabblemaster with 1x Hazoret though. I also cut 1x Scooze to add 1x Grim Flayer in the main.
I was very impressed with 2x Grims though. They were performing better than boardwipes.
I played Hazoret with 2 Rabblemasters and think that Hazoret overperformed very much, wheras Rabblemaster was just ok. Won me a game against 8-Rack, since the goblin tokens made Smallpox a bad card. For this I give Rabblemaster credit, but Hazoret has won me the game every time I saw her. She is really good.
I really wanted to play a 3rs CB but then I ran into a RB moon deck and realised I needed better cards for when I do run into midrange matchups. Huntmaster could turn into something else, I'll see.
My results with the list were so so yesterday, MTGO was giving me some really awful opening hands yesterday.
I actually did not like Thrun in the side of Jund, where as I liked Thrun in the side of Junk.
I was also running into quite a few heavy removal decks and bad matchups that involved lingering souls.
I wonder if the mardu decks are better than Jund and Junk at this point, the deck hasn't felt beatable at all with both decks.
I'm actually quite undecided on the sideboard.
Grim Lavamancer killed like 5 creatures by himself in one game. The only time I wished he was a boardwipe was against the mardu deck.
A part of me was missing the 3x CB/3x Fulminator combo, but a lot of people have been writing about how they wouldn't have won without BM in this meta.
I have to tweak the deck some.
I went back and read Reid Duke's last major jund article, which was a while ago. He says Jund is the deck you want to bust out when you want to prey on small creature decks. What are we really preying on besides Humans and Affinity for that?
He also said he wasn't a huge fan of playing snapcaster decks, since it ranges from the 45% to 55%
Jund in the traditional sense doesn't look well suited.
Right now, I have to believe that if you want to play Jund you have to go the route that wants to play the Rabble-master plan with Moons, but the problem is we're seeing an influx of cards playing bolt now.
I'm actually wondering if the meta has slowed down briefly enough that Junk should heavily be considered instead, until things change of course.
I'm a huge advocate of GBx players not being stubborn and refusing to only be on the jund or junk side, they're so interchangeable to me that players should be flexible.
The Jeskai craze really slowed this meta down for a time being.
There's going to be an influx of decks like Dredge and big mana to take advantage of this, so you could next level those decks but you also really have to count on seeing some slow and grindy decks, too.
I don't believe straight GB rock is a better than Jund or Junk, even if it did well at Frankfurt. Losing the third color is not worth it. I think I will test it out though, I actually ordered field of ruins to play with.
GB Rock could be a predatory in-between, we'll see.
I think the GB rocks going 4x thoughtseize is on the wrong track, apparently a lot of people were jamming burn at the Open, I think this is a massive mistake to make, even with the meta slowed down.
It's a weird time to play B/G/x, it feels like all of the decks are close but not quite there.
And spoiler: No Rabblemaster, but Hazoret as well as 24 lands, no Blood Moon!
Link
Probably the most important sentence in the whole article.
Abzan and DS are simply better decks nowadays, but there might come some time in the future where Jund can shine again.
However, I do like that his list included a Hazoret, she has also impressed me from my testing. No Blood Moon and 24 lands is a no brainer for me, although I can see why many lists run it theses days, because it seems comfortable. I am on Reid's side here when he says: Blood Moon does not belong to Jund.
I'm sad no one has tested my Junk deck, it's legit despite the greedy Gavony.
It may just not be the time to play BGx period. It feels like BGx is just missing one ingredient but I can't put my finger on it. I'm sure BBE would invigorate this deck again fixing the raw power and CA it's lacking.
There's some talk that BBE invalidates all other GBx decks and decreases the diversity of the 4 drops---but is GBx even a serious contender? People saying all that sound like those who have no clue about the archetype at all.
I will say one thing, I wish Junk had a Grim lavamancer. I would possibly replace damnation/Tendrils/EE for it.
I'm glad Reid actually addressed my comment from a few weeks ago in his article, I asked if he could at least acknowledge the Rabblemaster decklists and he did. He was very against Blood Moon, ok with Rabblemasters. What surprised me is how much he liked Hazoret, I didn't see that coming. I could see him playing her as a 2 of; I say that because of how he tested Chandra.
I'm not really sure Reid will play a non shadow midrange deck at the pro-tour though. I think he's playing Abzan in modern events to conceal what he'll play at the PT, which I don't blame him for, there's serious money on the line.
My guess is Reid will either play Storm, Elves or a shadow deck of some sort. He didn't look comfortable playing Grixis Shadow though, so either he'll test it a ton or prefer the 4C shadow deck.
He seemed very adamant about how greedy and dangerous a 5C mana base was, I think there's almost no way he runs the 5C Shadow
I was really surprised by how uncomfortable Reid seemed playing Grixis Shadow compared to the 5c version. It's funny how two different flavors of the same strategy can play out so differently in practice. Maybe Grixis and 5c Shadow are replacing Jund/Junk as the new B/G/x sister decks?
I think that Reid is too generally conservative with his mana bases to register a 5 color deck for the PT, but I could easily see him registering a 4c version of Shadow.
It's possible that the Shadow decks really do just flat out replace Jund and Junk barring a ban/unban or major new card.
Real talk though, Fish, why aren't you playing Grixis? It's the better deck than 5C/4C Shadow. You just can't afford the snapcasters and tarns?
Shadow decks are incredibly poorly positioned in my store. The deck seems even more worrisome to run with Azcanta of all flavors on the rise and Jeskai decks, both versions, postured.
Surely Reid Duke see's this, too.
I really wish Grim Lavamancer could work in the Shadow deck. I was massively impressed with Grim Lavamancer in Jund today and yesterday. I had a ton of games where it was so much better than anger. I did struggle with Jund in the midrange matches though.
I don't know what GBx/Shadow deck to play. I've been testing all forms of GBx this week. Tonight or tomorrow I'm going to test Rock. Tomorrow I'm going to look into the Mardu deck, too, I think it's getting less attention than deserved by the interactive players opting to not play grixis shadow.
Just don't make the mistake that Grixis is midrange---it's not, it's a tempo deck.
Have you tested two copies of Hazoret in the main yet?
I think Hazoret is a FANTASTIC addition. It pairs well with the general plan, LOTV and has an added bonus for Lantern.
Playing 2x copies scare me though
I basically played Reid's version of the deck.
I haven't tested 2x Goblin Rabblemaster with 1x Hazoret though. I also cut 1x Scooze to add 1x Grim Flayer in the main.
I was very impressed with 2x Grims though. They were performing better than boardwipes.