He's not a fit in Jund.We want individually powerful cards, while Pyromancer needs support to shine.
He's better in Mardu as Spsiegel said or something U/R based with cantrips.
Thats what I was trying to say with my abzan vs jund comparison. We need to solve the control matchups, abzan has the clear advantage right now with souls.
We could run pkn but i doubt this would be enough.
Thats what I was trying to say with my abzan vs jund comparison. We need to solve the control matchups, abzan has the clear advantage right now with souls.
We could run pkn but i doubt this would be enough.
IDK, I think for this list it was a bad matchup. I mean sometimes Lili just gets the job done. But Lingering Souls help so much ofc. I am guessing the Huntmaster did maybe some work. I am quite surprized by the finish due to the lack of Thrun, which should be in the SB imo.
Well, firstly it depends on which version we are talking about. The tempo version is probably a fine matchup (about 50/50). However, the more control-ish version running big PWs as finishers is what I consider a bad matchup. And here I mean probably something like 40-60 or maybe 45-55 percent. Or something between. Straigth UW is definitely a 40-60 at best.
The thing why it is a bad matchup, is because any removal spell in Bolt/Path/Electrolyze just kills Bob, which is our best engine to create CA. Liliana is strong, but Bolts and Snapcasters are good answers to her. Their single target removal is just very efficient against us. Lingering Souls makes that more easy, making 2-for-1 trades much more likely.
If their removal just trades 1-for-1 against us, its bad, since at some point they will get ahead with Snapcasters/Cryptics. And we cannot likely get back on track since Bob will almost always die.
Reid Duke states this in his article series. Colonnade decks are generally favourable for Abzan and unfavourable for Jund, due to Souls.
And I said it before, I think this is the biggest reason why Abzan is doing better right now. For every other matchup you can also have Jund and do fine. The very present Control decks are pushing us behind compared to Abzan.
I think right now Abzan is now better positioned. However, it depends if you guys want to second level the people preying on Jeskai. I imagine decks like Tron and Dredge will be present soon, again.
I'm already seeing my meta getting excited about Search for Azcanta, which I was prepared for.
I do think Thrun is very much the right call right now for both GBx decks.
I'm not 100% sure how Jund sideboards in the tempo matchup, I wrote down Reid Duke's plan in my notebook when I watched his video
For Jeskai Control I remove a lot to squeeze in the Fulminators and Collective Brutality.
Can I just say how great Collective Brutality is? I've been loving it in the side against control decks, combo, Company and Burn. Card is gas. So glad I bought 2x copies at foil for 9 bucks,
As cool as Jeskai is, I still love GBx even if I trashed both decks in most of 2017 in the forums,
I disagree with your evaluation on one point. Their Lightning Bolts (and Helixes) are usually weak in this match. You shouldn't just blindly run creatures out against any UWx deck. Doing so plays into their game plan. Sticking your own planeswalker (in Liliana) is usually the best way to beat them down. This is also a good match for Chandra, Torch of Defiance. Playing Abzan makes the match up somewhat easier but Lingering Souls is usually only good against Jeskai Tempo variants of UWx imo.
Well are Bolts and Helixes really that weak if they kill Dark Confidants, which probably the best card we have after LoTV? (So to speak, the sheer presence of the cards prevent us from creating CA sometimes.
I agree we shouldnt just run them out asap though. I guess the plan would be to stick a Liliana and get rid of their cards before we deploy a Bob. Chandra is definitely a good card here, but I think she makes the matchup not quite favourable.
Souls is surely better vs the tempo version, but I personally think Souls also are good vs the other versions.
I think right now Abzan is now better positioned. However, it depends if you guys want to second level the people preying on Jeskai. I imagine decks like Tron and Dredge will be present soon, again.
I'm already seeing my meta getting excited about Search for Azcanta, which I was prepared for.
I do think Thrun is very much the right call right now for both GBx decks.
I'm not 100% sure how Jund sideboards in the tempo matchup, I wrote down Reid Duke's plan in my notebook when I watched his video
For Jeskai Control I remove a lot to squeeze in the Fulminators and Collective Brutality.
Can I just say how great Collective Brutality is? I've been loving it in the side against control decks, combo, Company and Burn. Card is gas. So glad I bought 2x copies at foil for 9 bucks,
As cool as Jeskai is, I still love GBx even if I trashed both decks in most of 2017 in the forums,
The Fullminator and Brutality package is something I've always been sideboarding in this matchup, and I actually really like the plan. We draw out spells with our 1 and 2 mana cards, and focuses our oppenent into loosing situations with our 3mana cards (i.e. Rabble, Lily, and Fullminator) and some of our four mana cards (for those on Huntsman, Chandra, or Thrun). The trick is tune the deck to be as dense as possible.
The back-breaker for the control deck in this matchup is Liliana. The reason is that they often have to expend so many resources to get her off the field, that they can't deal with anything else while that's happening. For a list like this https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/878904#paper, my sibeboard plan is as follows...
In:
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+2 Nihil SpellBomb
+2 Collective Brutality
+3 Fullminator Mage
+1 Kitchen Finks
+1 Liliana, Last Hope
+1 Huntmaster of the Fells
This has worked for me pretty well in the past. What most people disagree about this is to board out K-Command and combos of Decay or Pulse because they feel the need to answer what the control deck is doing. I disagree with this because Jund should ALWAYS be the one with the threat on the board. We cannot afford to hold answers while aggressing at 100%.
I disagree with you completely. Lingering souls is a backbreaking card against all variants of jeskai and uw control. I think all gbx players are better served playing thrun in the board than Chandra for now. Chandra isn't great against shadow decks so I'm not feeling sad about the loss of it.
I've looked at a ton of sideboards, jeskai decks tend to cut helix out completely postboard. Every player is different but that is the recommended plan.
I don't just run out threats into removal without some kind of plan. My priority is to make an impact with lotv.
I actually keep abrupt decay in now, and it has been consistently fantastic. This card was trash in the matchup before azcanta. I highly recommend keeping this card in now, guys.
As for no pushs and paths for colonnade, I've been fine. I'm constantly trying to put them on the backfoot that casting colonnade or azcanta doesn't feel good. The brutality and fulm package has felt powerful, it doesn't make me miss kitchen finks on junks side of things.
I'd shave bolts before other things, the surprise factor of 3 damage isn't a huge deal to me.
Again guys, against the jeskai control version, do not cut decays anymore
Interesting approach, but what do you do against their Colonnades and PWs besides Fulminator for the land?
Don't know if keeping the bolt here is better than the other hard removal.
So, the interesting part about this approach is that they're ALWAYS on the defensive, and because of that, their planeswalkers functionality are limited. With this plan, a Planeswalker usually minuses to deal with what we're doing, and swift lightning bolt or a Rabble token takes care of em real quick. Colonnades are never an issue cuz you're applying so much pressure that they can't afford to activate it and deal with what you have. If they have enough lands to activate Colonnade, they usually haven't played enough spells during the game to deal with our threats.
UW lists runs multiple Dsphers and verdicts not really that good for souls. They can bounce sphere that has been used on souls with cryptic commands, to recycle it. Overall I think that matchup is just horrible for BGx not tron- bad but still very bad. But if able to get in more Golgari Charms into the board matchup will be much better.
I've never thought uw was a good deck in modern.
If lingering souls isn't good enough nothing in the archetype really is
Also, agree with what grindor said. Put them on the backfoot. The opens final showed how brutal you can be if they have to pick fights over everything
I think all gbx players are better served playing thrun in the board than Chandra for now. Chandra isn't great against shadow decks so I'm not feeling sad about the loss of it.
I know, Thrun is auto include, but this does nothing contribute to the fact that ABzan is simply better now. I am trying to pilot a Jund build which has its own tools to have a reasonable matchup against any Control variant. I know we cannot compete with Abzan, but from the Jund perspective, this should be at least a goal.
@Grindor so you are fine with them just bolting and Electrolyzing our Bobs? You just play everything asap?
I disagree with you completely. Lingering souls is a backbreaking card against all variants of jeskai and uw control. I think all gbx players are better served playing thrun in the board than Chandra for now. Chandra isn't great against shadow decks so I'm not feeling sad about the loss of it.
Then maybe I just have more experience with Jeskai control than some because I have never been terrified of dealing with Lingering Souls when I'm on Jeskai control. Thrun? Absolutely. Planeswalkers or Geist? It depends, but they definitely are more threatening than Spirit tokens. You naturally run more sweepers and card advantage deals main deck than most. I mean without a quick start that involves completely shredding the hand, you're in for a long ride. Then it gets worse after sideboard. I think you're overestimating how good it is against the true control variants. Against Tempo, I absolutely agree that it is backbreaking. Otherwise, nope.
I disagree with you completely. Lingering souls is a backbreaking card against all variants of jeskai and uw control. I think all gbx players are better served playing thrun in the board than Chandra for now. Chandra isn't great against shadow decks so I'm not feeling sad about the loss of it.
Then maybe I just have more experience with Jeskai control than some because I have never been terrified of dealing with Lingering Souls when I'm on Jeskai control. Thrun? Absolutely. Planeswalkers or Geist? It depends, but they definitely are more threatening than Spirit tokens. You naturally run more sweepers and card advantage deals main deck than most. I mean without a quick start that involves completely shredding the hand, you're for a long ride. Then it gets worse after sideboard. I think you're overestimating how good it is against the true control variants. Against Tempo, I absolutely agree that it is backbreaking. Otherwise, nope.
Yep I think that is true. The tempo variant is essentially a Jeskai Midrange deck anyway, whereas the other versions are just pure Control. Souls is definitely better agains the midrange Jeskai deck, as Souls is just a very good midrange card.
I am nevertheless more happy being on Souls than being not on Souls at all when I am paired against Control I feel. Doesn't matter which variant. Its a good card nonetheless which likely trades 2-for-1. Not backbracking, but still good.
He's not a fit in Jund.We want individually powerful cards, while Pyromancer needs support to shine.
He's better in Mardu as Spsiegel said or something U/R based with cantrips.
BG/x BG
We could run pkn but i doubt this would be enough.
IDK, I think for this list it was a bad matchup. I mean sometimes Lili just gets the job done. But Lingering Souls help so much ofc. I am guessing the Huntmaster did maybe some work. I am quite surprized by the finish due to the lack of Thrun, which should be in the SB imo.
The thing why it is a bad matchup, is because any removal spell in Bolt/Path/Electrolyze just kills Bob, which is our best engine to create CA. Liliana is strong, but Bolts and Snapcasters are good answers to her. Their single target removal is just very efficient against us. Lingering Souls makes that more easy, making 2-for-1 trades much more likely.
If their removal just trades 1-for-1 against us, its bad, since at some point they will get ahead with Snapcasters/Cryptics. And we cannot likely get back on track since Bob will almost always die.
Reid Duke states this in his article series. Colonnade decks are generally favourable for Abzan and unfavourable for Jund, due to Souls.
And I said it before, I think this is the biggest reason why Abzan is doing better right now. For every other matchup you can also have Jund and do fine. The very present Control decks are pushing us behind compared to Abzan.
I'm already seeing my meta getting excited about Search for Azcanta, which I was prepared for.
I do think Thrun is very much the right call right now for both GBx decks.
I'm not 100% sure how Jund sideboards in the tempo matchup, I wrote down Reid Duke's plan in my notebook when I watched his video
For Jeskai Control I remove a lot to squeeze in the Fulminators and Collective Brutality.
Can I just say how great Collective Brutality is? I've been loving it in the side against control decks, combo, Company and Burn. Card is gas. So glad I bought 2x copies at foil for 9 bucks,
As cool as Jeskai is, I still love GBx even if I trashed both decks in most of 2017 in the forums,
I agree we shouldnt just run them out asap though. I guess the plan would be to stick a Liliana and get rid of their cards before we deploy a Bob. Chandra is definitely a good card here, but I think she makes the matchup not quite favourable.
Souls is surely better vs the tempo version, but I personally think Souls also are good vs the other versions.
The Fullminator and Brutality package is something I've always been sideboarding in this matchup, and I actually really like the plan. We draw out spells with our 1 and 2 mana cards, and focuses our oppenent into loosing situations with our 3mana cards (i.e. Rabble, Lily, and Fullminator) and some of our four mana cards (for those on Huntsman, Chandra, or Thrun). The trick is tune the deck to be as dense as possible.
The back-breaker for the control deck in this matchup is Liliana. The reason is that they often have to expend so many resources to get her off the field, that they can't deal with anything else while that's happening. For a list like this https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/878904#paper, my sibeboard plan is as follows...
In:
+1 Grim Lavamancer
+2 Nihil SpellBomb
+2 Collective Brutality
+3 Fullminator Mage
+1 Kitchen Finks
+1 Liliana, Last Hope
+1 Huntmaster of the Fells
Out:
-3 Fatal Push
-2 Abrupt Decay
-3 Terminate
-2 Kolaghan's Command
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
This has worked for me pretty well in the past. What most people disagree about this is to board out K-Command and combos of Decay or Pulse because they feel the need to answer what the control deck is doing. I disagree with this because Jund should ALWAYS be the one with the threat on the board. We cannot afford to hold answers while aggressing at 100%.
Don't know if keeping the bolt here is better than the other hard removal.
I've looked at a ton of sideboards, jeskai decks tend to cut helix out completely postboard. Every player is different but that is the recommended plan.
I don't just run out threats into removal without some kind of plan. My priority is to make an impact with lotv.
I actually keep abrupt decay in now, and it has been consistently fantastic. This card was trash in the matchup before azcanta. I highly recommend keeping this card in now, guys.
As for no pushs and paths for colonnade, I've been fine. I'm constantly trying to put them on the backfoot that casting colonnade or azcanta doesn't feel good. The brutality and fulm package has felt powerful, it doesn't make me miss kitchen finks on junks side of things.
I'd shave bolts before other things, the surprise factor of 3 damage isn't a huge deal to me.
Again guys, against the jeskai control version, do not cut decays anymore
So, the interesting part about this approach is that they're ALWAYS on the defensive, and because of that, their planeswalkers functionality are limited. With this plan, a Planeswalker usually minuses to deal with what we're doing, and swift lightning bolt or a Rabble token takes care of em real quick. Colonnades are never an issue cuz you're applying so much pressure that they can't afford to activate it and deal with what you have. If they have enough lands to activate Colonnade, they usually haven't played enough spells during the game to deal with our threats.
I've never thought uw was a good deck in modern.
If lingering souls isn't good enough nothing in the archetype really is
Also, agree with what grindor said. Put them on the backfoot. The opens final showed how brutal you can be if they have to pick fights over everything
I know, Thrun is auto include, but this does nothing contribute to the fact that ABzan is simply better now. I am trying to pilot a Jund build which has its own tools to have a reasonable matchup against any Control variant. I know we cannot compete with Abzan, but from the Jund perspective, this should be at least a goal.
@Grindor so you are fine with them just bolting and Electrolyzing our Bobs? You just play everything asap?
Then maybe I just have more experience with Jeskai control than some because I have never been terrified of dealing with Lingering Souls when I'm on Jeskai control. Thrun? Absolutely. Planeswalkers or Geist? It depends, but they definitely are more threatening than Spirit tokens. You naturally run more sweepers and card advantage deals main deck than most. I mean without a quick start that involves completely shredding the hand, you're in for a long ride. Then it gets worse after sideboard. I think you're overestimating how good it is against the true control variants. Against Tempo, I absolutely agree that it is backbreaking. Otherwise, nope.
Yep I think that is true. The tempo variant is essentially a Jeskai Midrange deck anyway, whereas the other versions are just pure Control. Souls is definitely better agains the midrange Jeskai deck, as Souls is just a very good midrange card.
I am nevertheless more happy being on Souls than being not on Souls at all when I am paired against Control I feel. Doesn't matter which variant. Its a good card nonetheless which likely trades 2-for-1. Not backbracking, but still good.
4x Verdant Catacombs
3x Bloodstained Mire
1x Wooded Foothills
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Stomping Ground
1x Blood Crypt
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
3x Raging Ravine
2x Swamp
2x Forest
Creature (13)
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Dark Confidant
2x Scavenging Ooze
3x Goblin Rabblemaster
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
3x Fatal Push
3x Lightning Bolt
3x Terminate
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Kolaghan's Command
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Collective Brutality
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
2x Grim Lavamancer
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Ancient Grudge
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
3x Blood Moon