You can't consider those numbers in isolation though. Sure, there's a 4.5% or so difference in the probability of hitting the 5th land (I'm going to assume you mean 5th land on turn 5), but that doesn't paint the entire picture. You also now have a higher chance of flooding out, the mulligan rate might change, etc. Considering it in isolation sort of suggests that it's extremely important, which I'm not convinced it is.
It's also worth pointing out some people definitely played 24 in Jund lists back when we had BBE and DRS. Yuuya top 8'd PT RTR with 4 4-drops and 7 3-drops playing 24 lands. Ochoa had the same configuration with 24, Willy Edel had 25 but had a slightly higher curve which included a 5th 4-drop in the main. I don't have any stats to properly back it up, I just went to some coverage data where I knew I could find some BBEs in Jund.
You are correct that this is not the only aspect. The difference in flooding is about 3 %. Flooding with a one land difference does matter more or less depending on how long a game typical lasts. Plus, the shorter a game, the more flooding is also dependant on the opening hand you keep. So, until turn 5 you have the higher chance of getting to play a land every turn and beyond that, you are slightly more risky to flood. Given that the modern format is dominant on noninteraction decks, this would matter less as games are typically decided before you flood (unless you kept a shaky hand with a lot of lands). And against fast aggro and combo decks, hitting landdrops is very crucial, for which reason we want the apropriate amount of lands. Flooding is not the limiting factor, but screwing is. So the point is, the other facts you mentioned are of course important, but not as important as what I was mainly focusing on, given the modern meta context. Thats how I would evaluate it. But its of course not the only way to do it.
A mana dork completely changes the equation, you can't compare two mana curves one by one when one of them includes 4 copies of a manadork. A manadork does also count to some extent as a manasource. And you also have to take that contextual to the prevalent format speed then. If the format is grindier and slower, a higher curve or less lands (how ever you want to see it) can be played, as flooding is the limiting factor here.
This kind of makes it sound like 24 isn't the worst, but that 25 is probably ideal. Like unless you're predicting the meta and knowing whether your games are going to be short, the difference isn't much. With an extra 3% to flood, you're only looking at a 1.5% net difference, which is pretty minimal. I don't think most of us are trying that hard to predict the meta, I'm mostly playing at small local events that vary a lot in terms of the meta.
DRS is kind of an interesting mana dork because it's only sometimes a mana dork. You need fetches you don't always have, but also you used the other modes as well in ways that made it not strictly a Birds or something. That was the format where we had tons of speedy decks like Affinity and Storm (before the ban of Seething Song), but also slow decks like Birthing Pod (where they would cut combo vs BGx).
It's worth noting the 25th land being a manland makes it not as bad for flooding, because it's basically a creature and not useless.
Like unless you're predicting the meta and knowing whether your games are going to be short, the difference isn't much. With an extra 3% to flood, you're only looking at a 1.5% net difference, which is pretty minimal. I don't think most of us are trying that hard to predict the meta, I'm mostly playing at small local events that vary a lot in terms of the meta.
The net difference is indeed somewhere along the lines of 1.5 %, but note that this is not true for every state of a given game. This is just the net difference over the course of a full game. The flood takes effect more in the later stages of the game, wheres the consistancy to hit landdrops is importan in the early stages in the game. I just think that for the metagame overall, I want a strong early game.
It's worth noting the 25th land being a manland makes it not as bad for flooding, because it's basically a creature and not useless.
Yes, this is the reason why the 25th land is a fourth creatureland, which makes the flooding less of a problem but you still benefit from the higher curving out consistancy.
boys, I've seen the conversation about DRS, I know it's a lot worse than him but he had some lists in the past using Noble Hierarch, with more difficulty but it's very easy to do LOTV in the second round and BBE in the third turn besides attack with exaltar, Why was it abandoned?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern:
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
boys, I've seen the conversation about DRS, I know it's a lot worse than him but he had some lists in the past using Noble Hierarch, with more difficulty but it's very easy to do LOTV in the second round and BBE in the third turn besides attack with exaltar, Why was it abandoned?
The big problem of Noble in my opinion is that she doesn't produce black mana. Only producing green doesn't seem all that good honestly, its a bit better Llanowar elves at that point.
boys, I've seen the conversation about DRS, I know it's a lot worse than him but he had some lists in the past using Noble Hierarch, with more difficulty but it's very easy to do LOTV in the second round and BBE in the third turn besides attack with exaltar, Why was it abandoned?
The big problem of Noble in my opinion is that she doesn't produce black mana. Only producing green doesn't seem all that good honestly, its a bit better Llanowar elves at that point.
I've seen Abzan lists with Noble Hierarch and the occasional Rock list with Elves of Deep Shadow, but I don't remember any Jund lists with dorks since, well, DRS was banned. Hierarch is just awful in Jund and EoDS doesn't make R which is needful in Jund early. BoP makes the colors and can chump flyers, but the possible acceleration isn't worth it for the risk of those awful top-decks mid to late-game. Jund is still a mid-range deck, isn't it?
Not sure how much I like Assassin's Trophy to be honest. Seems like a cheaper/worse beast within that gives my opponent mana acceleration. Cant even target my own stuff and 3 just feels wonky and at times I wish it were a decay/pulse/terminate. Maybe others have had better success with it? Not as optimistic as I was before with it.
Not sure how much I like Assassin's Trophy to be honest. Seems like a cheaper/worse beast within that gives my opponent mana acceleration. Cant even target my own stuff and 3 just feels wonky and at times I wish it were a decay/pulse/terminate. Maybe others have had better success with it? Not as optimistic as I was before with it.
I think 2 is the right number. Its nice to run it coz u can run more fatal push. Fatal push cannot target noncreature permanent.
Anyhow grafdiggers cage is good right now, i find spirits taxes our sideboard right now. Grafdiggers cage locks the collectee company. And it hits the dredge decks.
Anyone know Good sideboard Cards again soulsisters? IM Having trouble against soulsisters in my local meta
Sulfur Elemental Kills most of soul sisters board, lingering souls, some D&T creatures and various white weenies with a toughness of one. Good against a few decks tho does add power to white as well by being a +1/-1. Advances your game plan by being on a 3/2 body has both flash and split second making it a bit easier to work with in case you need to keep removal up. With LotlH and K-command you can recover it from the gy a few times.
Night of Souls' Betrayal -1/-1 to all creatures including your own. Kills your bob's and goyfs if they have a RIP out. Good card and sometimes hard to remove.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
Question, what do we bring in and take out for Storm? I'm starting with Jadine's list from SCG Chorolette
When playing Storm against Jund I usually side out the mana accelerators and remands. I board in Empty the Warrens, Pieces of the Puzzle and some burn/artifact removal.
I think you would like to have sweepers, targeted discard and graveyard hate.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
Question, what do we bring in and take out for Storm? I'm starting with Jadine's list from SCG Chorolette
When playing Storm against Jund I usually side out the mana accelerators and remands. I board in Empty the Warrens, Pieces of the Puzzle and some burn/artifact removal.
I think you would like to have sweepers, targeted discard and graveyard hate.
Question, what do we bring in and take out for Storm? I'm starting with Jadine's list from SCG Chorolette
When playing Storm against Jund I usually side out the mana accelerators and remands. I board in Empty the Warrens, Pieces of the Puzzle and some burn/artifact removal.
I think you would like to have sweepers, targeted discard and graveyard hate.
So what does jund take out? All the trophies?
Given my sideboard looks like this, I'd board as such:
I'm not sure if this is right, I think BBE is good but I want some sweepers because they bring in Empty the Warrens. I keep in bolts because they speed up the clock and can tag Baral or Electromancer. I'd love to hear everyone else's thoughts.
I think you shuld play some copies of Nihil Spellbombs/Grafdigger's Cages right now, just better than Surgical against Drege.. This list is more likely to fold to Dredge, the most represented deck in the format right now. That's my pure opinion sure.. Hope you enjoy
That seems like good advice, thanks for the feedback Gianju. I could see it being good as it shores up the spirits matchup as well with COCO hits. I think with 2x Anger 2x Grafdigger 1x Spellbomb in the side, and 3x Scooze in the main I should be good against dredge. Thoughts?
Question, what do we bring in and take out for Storm? I'm starting with Jadine's list from SCG Chorolette
The SB guide for Storm is included in the Primer. It will show you what to cut and what to bring in.
Lol, Delver. “Guys, I worked hard on this Primer. It’s on the first page of this thread. Please, just read it.”
But then I’d have to go all the way to a different page and scroll down and all that.
(That was all meant to be very lighthearted, by the way. Not a shot at anyone. I know without inflection things can be easily misconstrued.)
BRGLooks like Jund made a pretty good showing at Regionals!GRB
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN: BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG EDH: BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
BRGLooks like Jund made a pretty good showing at Regionals!GRB
Two of the winning list are running less than 24 lands: 23 and 22 respectively.
Hmm... I don't think I'll leave home with less than 24, especially with 22 lands and 2 Trackers!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Common sense is the most fairly distributed thing in the world, for each one thinks he is so well-endowed with it that even those who are hardest to satisfy in all other matters are not in the habit of desiring more of it than they already have. - René Descartes
BRGLooks like Jund made a pretty good showing at Regionals!GRB
Two of the winning list are running less than 24 lands: 23 and 22 respectively.
Hmm... I don't think I'll leave home with less than 24, especially with 22 lands and 2 Trackers!
That list looks miserable to run. 4x 4-drops, 7x 3-drops, and a bunch more 3-drops in the side. I feel like you’d constantly have cards stranded in your hand. But who am I to judge? All I can say is that I wouldn’t run it.
@Xour, I love the Floyd avatar and the Descartes quote.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN: BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG EDH: BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
You are correct that this is not the only aspect. The difference in flooding is about 3 %. Flooding with a one land difference does matter more or less depending on how long a game typical lasts. Plus, the shorter a game, the more flooding is also dependant on the opening hand you keep. So, until turn 5 you have the higher chance of getting to play a land every turn and beyond that, you are slightly more risky to flood. Given that the modern format is dominant on noninteraction decks, this would matter less as games are typically decided before you flood (unless you kept a shaky hand with a lot of lands). And against fast aggro and combo decks, hitting landdrops is very crucial, for which reason we want the apropriate amount of lands. Flooding is not the limiting factor, but screwing is. So the point is, the other facts you mentioned are of course important, but not as important as what I was mainly focusing on, given the modern meta context. Thats how I would evaluate it. But its of course not the only way to do it.
A mana dork completely changes the equation, you can't compare two mana curves one by one when one of them includes 4 copies of a manadork. A manadork does also count to some extent as a manasource. And you also have to take that contextual to the prevalent format speed then. If the format is grindier and slower, a higher curve or less lands (how ever you want to see it) can be played, as flooding is the limiting factor here.
DRS is kind of an interesting mana dork because it's only sometimes a mana dork. You need fetches you don't always have, but also you used the other modes as well in ways that made it not strictly a Birds or something. That was the format where we had tons of speedy decks like Affinity and Storm (before the ban of Seething Song), but also slow decks like Birthing Pod (where they would cut combo vs BGx).
It's worth noting the 25th land being a manland makes it not as bad for flooding, because it's basically a creature and not useless.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
I agree with that. This is of course true in context to a given manacurve.
The net difference is indeed somewhere along the lines of 1.5 %, but note that this is not true for every state of a given game. This is just the net difference over the course of a full game. The flood takes effect more in the later stages of the game, wheres the consistancy to hit landdrops is importan in the early stages in the game. I just think that for the metagame overall, I want a strong early game.
Yes, this is the reason why the 25th land is a fourth creatureland, which makes the flooding less of a problem but you still benefit from the higher curving out consistancy.
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
The big problem of Noble in my opinion is that she doesn't produce black mana. Only producing green doesn't seem all that good honestly, its a bit better Llanowar elves at that point.
Night of Souls' Betrayal should be decent.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I've seen Abzan lists with Noble Hierarch and the occasional Rock list with Elves of Deep Shadow, but I don't remember any Jund lists with dorks since, well, DRS was banned. Hierarch is just awful in Jund and EoDS doesn't make R which is needful in Jund early. BoP makes the colors and can chump flyers, but the possible acceleration isn't worth it for the risk of those awful top-decks mid to late-game. Jund is still a mid-range deck, isn't it?
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I think 2 is the right number. Its nice to run it coz u can run more fatal push. Fatal push cannot target noncreature permanent.
Anyhow grafdiggers cage is good right now, i find spirits taxes our sideboard right now. Grafdiggers cage locks the collectee company. And it hits the dredge decks.
Sulfur Elemental Kills most of soul sisters board, lingering souls, some D&T creatures and various white weenies with a toughness of one. Good against a few decks tho does add power to white as well by being a +1/-1. Advances your game plan by being on a 3/2 body has both flash and split second making it a bit easier to work with in case you need to keep removal up. With LotlH and K-command you can recover it from the gy a few times.
Night of Souls' Betrayal -1/-1 to all creatures including your own. Kills your bob's and goyfs if they have a RIP out. Good card and sometimes hard to remove.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
When playing Storm against Jund I usually side out the mana accelerators and remands. I board in Empty the Warrens, Pieces of the Puzzle and some burn/artifact removal.
I think you would like to have sweepers, targeted discard and graveyard hate.
So what does jund take out? All the trophies?
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
The SB guide for Storm is included in the Primer. It will show you what to cut and what to bring in.
Given my sideboard looks like this, I'd board as such:
3x Fulminator Mage
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Anger of the Gods
2x Collective Brutality
2x Abrade
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
-1 Push
-2 Kommand
-4 BloodBraid
+2 Brutality
+2 Anger
+2 Surgical
+1 Spellbomb
I'm not sure if this is right, I think BBE is good but I want some sweepers because they bring in Empty the Warrens. I keep in bolts because they speed up the clock and can tag Baral or Electromancer. I'd love to hear everyone else's thoughts.
That seems like good advice, thanks for the feedback Gianju. I could see it being good as it shores up the spirits matchup as well with COCO hits. I think with 2x Anger 2x Grafdigger 1x Spellbomb in the side, and 3x Scooze in the main I should be good against dredge. Thoughts?
Lol, Delver. “Guys, I worked hard on this Primer. It’s on the first page of this thread. Please, just read it.”
But then I’d have to go all the way to a different page and scroll down and all that.
(That was all meant to be very lighthearted, by the way. Not a shot at anyone. I know without inflection things can be easily misconstrued.)
BRGLooks like Jund made a pretty good showing at Regionals!GRB
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB
Hmm... I don't think I'll leave home with less than 24, especially with 22 lands and 2 Trackers!
That list looks miserable to run. 4x 4-drops, 7x 3-drops, and a bunch more 3-drops in the side. I feel like you’d constantly have cards stranded in your hand. But who am I to judge? All I can say is that I wouldn’t run it.
@Xour, I love the Floyd avatar and the Descartes quote.
BRGJUNDGRB---BRHOLLOW ONERB---BGELVESGB---BRGLIVING ENDGRB---GWBOGLESWG
EDH:
BRGKARRTHUS, TYRANT OF JUNDGRB