Thanks Delver, own lists is very sames, but you running 4 bolts and 1 push, i running 3 bolts, 2 push, but the mirran crusader today makes me chill and i like to boltted him.
My Sb
3 FM
2 spellbomb
1 damnation
2 anger
1 EE
2 CB
2 finks
1 Hunt Master
1 ancit grudge
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Modern:
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
So why aren't we on the risk factor train? Card seems nuts
Risk Factor has its applications - and it is indeed strong. It doesn't belong in a deck that doesn't support it and the reasons mentioned in this thread are valid.
However, I am of a mind that Liliana of the Veil is not that strong in the current meta - and its for this reason I've taken the time to re-imagine Jund in a more aggressive shell where Green and Red are primary colors with black as the tertiary or splash color, strictly for Assassin's Trophy and Kolaghan's Command.
It is definitely different in the way it is constructed and how it plays. It probably should have a thread of its own in deck creation. However, if any of you are interested in seeing just what this concept is about - I can promise you that it definitely has legs and just needs further tweaking and input from players interested in going outside of the box a bit.
I'll be creating that thread soon.
If you are walking down that path hoe about more fetches, wild nacatl and death shadows?
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I have dyslexia, no I am not going to spell check for you, yes you have to live with the horrors of it.
So, since most of Facebook's discussion on jund is trash, lets bring up a topic
Sol malka said on the scg tour (basically the guy who created rock in modern), said no gbx player should be playing with less than 4 Bob's in the deck...as it's often our best turn 2 play. Yet we cut to 3x Bob's.
So, since most of Facebook's discussion on jund is trash, lets bring up a topic
Sol malka said on the scg tour (basically the guy who created rock in modern), said no gbx player should be playing with less than 4 Bob's in the deck...as it's often our best turn 2 play. Yet we cut to 3x Bob's.
Thoughts?
I really liked the words from Sol in the deck tech and I definitely think he is right. But I am not sure about the difference between 3 and 4 bob. Yeah he said we should also not cut down to 3 copies, but I think In jund this issue is a bit more difficult, since the Jund manabase is way more painful than in Rock. Therefore I would never cut Bob in Rock. but I think in Jund it has merits, as lifetotals matters.
And concerning Rock, I think the biggest thing to take away here is to not follow the statement of Hoogland who started all this nonsense. He said you should replace Bob with Tracker, which is just ridiculous. Tracker is not Bob, and I am trying my best to correct this everyhwere I can (on fb, on the discord server and on reddit) and as it seems people begin to listen now for which reason sol malkas statement helped pretty much.
But solely concerning Jund, I think 3 Bobs are fine to hedge against aggro decks. Its because the manabase is way more painful.
For those of you who have played 25-land builds, do you cut a land our any amount of Dark Confidant against Humans?
I definitely cut a land on the draw against every aggro deck. I think with 25 lands you can also do it on the play if you have lowered your curve after SB. And I usually cut Bob down to 2 copies for that matchup but only on the draw as the pressure on the lifetotals ios much higher when Humans is on the play. Same goes for Spirits. I think on the play Bob is still quite good though.
I agree with not shaving all Bobs but in Jund I agree with FlyingDelver in that things are a little different comparing to Rock. With mana base being more painful in Jund I think it's fine to play 3. I'm leaning more towards 3 tbh due to the number of aggro decks in Modern. Against other decks you want 4 but against aggro you don't want to draw more than 1. If you play all 4 then it's more likely to draw a second one which is almost always bad if you play against fast aggressive deck where your life total matters. With this in minds I'll stick with 3 for now.
Concerning Rock I think Tracker is better there and you probably should play it but Bob is also good. Bob being bad and that you shouldn't play him because of that is something I've ever agree with Hoogland. Tracker's version is fine but saying Bob is bad makes no sense to me. Bob is good against any deck where your life doesn't matter which means against everything except aggro but even there you can afford to draw a few cards and then chump block with him. I like Sol Malka's list with a few exceptions.
There isone thing though I don't get considering Sol Malka's list (not just Rock but regarding all GBx decks) and this is Thrun. I don't think Thrun is a good card right now. I wouldn't play it in 75 at all. I'm very surprised he plays it, so much more to see it in the md.
The thing is though that it would suggest that there is a "Tracker version" and a "bob version" in Rock. However, I think whether to run or not to run Tracker in Rock is pretty much off the table, I think its an auto include. Its just Rocks BBE. So the question is to replace Bob with Tasigur actually, it has hardly anything to do with Tracker. Hoogland pretty much plays Tasigurs and some extra spells in place of Bob. And I think that is the wrong part.
@Flyngdelver what do you thinhk about split the one mana kill creature, bolts and push, i running now 3 bolts 2 push but i like running 4 bolts and one push, any thougths?
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Modern:
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
Jadines list seems fine overall, I just want to point out that she has only 17 sources for Anger as well as 17 green for Finks. A little on the edge concerning mana sources. However, the overall curve looks alright as she does only run 3 BBE.
@Flyngdelver what do you thinhk about split the one mana kill creature, bolts and push, i running now 3 bolts 2 push but i like running 4 bolts and one push, any thougths?
Yeah you can do that, I occasionaly do it as well.
She went overboard on the gy hate. But she made it into the top 8 so maybe it was the right call.
Doesn't look like any jund list ran voids to deal with dredge, guess a mish mash of spellbomb, cage and surgical is the way to go.
Docker, equipment is bad in modern and it's slow, clunky and can penalize you hard wasting a turn doing nothing. Equipment will continue to rarely be good without a certain banned card being reintroduced.
Delver, jadines land isnt that big of a deal. My land base is similar except I run 3x mires and 1 foothills. Dont think I'm running 4x forests right now. Maybe I should.
If you guys are interested, I wrote a guide for building consistant manabases for GBx decks. Here you can see in detail how I do it and what I think about it. Lately people don't pay enough attention to this topic, and manabases are all over the place. If you are interested in being consistant, then I would advice reading this.
Cage has some overlap in that it's good against Coco and Chord, though. I like how diversified her graveyard hate is because it makes it much harder for Dredge to play around, which seems important.
Jadine's manabase is almost exactly what we typically played in 2015-2016, and it was generally stable enough to support Anger and Finks if you fetched with those cards in mind. In general, the construction of her main deck looks like a throwback to that era of Jund, which I really like.
Have we thought about running main deck sweepers since we aren't as aggressive as the rest of the field or is this unnecessary? My meta is full of zoo and spirits and I'm not the beatdown in any of these matchups. Plus I like my g2 matchup after SB since I normally lose g1 and goyf is big enough to survive the AotG. Constructive feedback please. I just dont want to go to g3 against any of these aggro decks. Just something I've been thinking about
Just a note, there's a couple sideboard notes about Leyline of the Void against the Living End and Dredge match up, but it's not discussed in the Sideboard Gauntlet, Graveyard Hate sections at all.
I ran it this past weekend for a bunch of side events at GP NJ, and it's been very strong against Mardu Pyromancer (They have wear // tear and anguished unmaking, both 1-2 copies at most in the board) which knocks Revelers up to 8 mana, shuts off Souls, screws up Looting. The Dredge and KCI matchups are both solid but they can board in more answers (Mostly Nature's Claim, but KCI has Back to Nature and can pop a 4 {X} Eng. Explosives). Storm has to have a Repeal or Echoing Truth to bounce it before they can combo off with Past in Flames; which seems hit or miss g2/3 if they sideboard that out knowing we have graveyard hate.
Have we thought about running main deck sweepers since we aren't as aggressive as the rest of the field or is this unnecessary? My meta is full of zoo and spirits and I'm not the beatdown in any of these matchups. Plus I like my g2 matchup after SB since I normally lose g1 and goyf is big enough to survive the AotG. Constructive feedback please. I just dont want to go to g3 against any of these aggro decks. Just something I've been thinking about
Anger of the Gods and Courser of Kruphix were main-deck staples or at least very nearly so a few years ago. If it's what you need, then it's what you need. It doesn't really matter what's going on in the Pro Tour does it?
I rather like the idea of a sweeper with more utility. I'm actually thinking of running Engineered Explosives main-deck. It works on non-creatures and since I see Humans EVERY FNM, it could be a blow-out.
Have we thought about running main deck sweepers since we aren't as aggressive as the rest of the field or is this unnecessary? My meta is full of zoo and spirits and I'm not the beatdown in any of these matchups. Plus I like my g2 matchup after SB since I normally lose g1 and goyf is big enough to survive the AotG. Constructive feedback please. I just dont want to go to g3 against any of these aggro decks. Just something I've been thinking about
Anger of the Gods and Courser of Kruphix were main-deck staples or at least very nearly so a few years ago. If it's what you need, then it's what you need. It doesn't really matter what's going on in the Pro Tour does it?
I rather like the idea of a sweeper with more utility. I'm actually thinking of running Engineered Explosives main-deck. It works on non-creatures and since I see Humans EVERY FNM, it could be a blow-out.
I just like having a better game 1 and losing the die roll. Gives me a main deck "oh sh*t" out. The biggest reason I love Jund is that plays a one for one attrition/control game and turns the corner with Goyf and Ravines after Lili, discard, and removal have done their part.
One of the best things about jund is that it’s highly customizeable to beat whatever is meta. If the meta dictates that you should play maindeck sweepers, play maindeck sweepers. I think a maindeck engineered explosives could be a great idea, or perhaps damnation to avoid bad cascades/for budget reasons.
Now that hollow one and human’s stock has gone down a bit I think Bob is getting better, just for my two cents. Still, I don’t know that I ever want to play the full 4 again. It’s such a serious liability in multiples (unless you’re fighting a grind battle or your opponent gives 0 *****s about your health) and I’ve really been happy with a deck playing only 2. Might be time to bump up to 3 perhaps tho.
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Modern UMerfolk GBWMelira PodRIP GBW Abzan Midrange GBR Jund Midrange
If you guys are interested, I wrote a guide for building consistant manabases for GBx decks. Here you can see in detail how I do it and what I think about it. Lately people don't pay enough attention to this topic, and manabases are all over the place. If you are interested in being consistant, then I would advice reading this.
Really a good read material for me as a Jund beginner Appreciate for your write-up.
I am agreed on the point that utilization of every single mana to reach the max point of deck's consistency. We should try to play every spell in our hand without leaving any room for unused mana to get value and outgrind opponent as many of our spells are 1 for 1 or 2 for 1, and we are able to do so as every turn we able to hit land drop. No matter how, Jund playstyle is winning mtg game by out-value opponent. With present of red with bolt, BBE and command, we can be on fast and on par with other aggro deck compared to BG rock or other blue control decks.
Just some point in my head, we will need to fix our color first, I would know that first few turn would be painful due to fixing the manabase. If the beginning hand is abit risky and painful, do we still play the spell consistently especially against fast deck such as human and hollow one? We know they will have a fast play, do we start with fetch to thoughtseize? or turn 2 still hit dark confident assume there is no other best turn 2 play?
Just want to know your idea and opinion on consistency VS matchup or risky play.
Some of the high points of Jadine's article:
- The 4 Confidant/3 BBE split is a response to her expecting more uninteractive decks, where Confidant helps you find your sideboard cards and your life total isn't as relevant. If you're expecting more creature decks and midrange/control, she still likes the 3 Bob/4 BBE.
- She's super high on Assassin's Trophy, and credits it with freeing up her sideboard enough to play as much anti-dredge hate as she did.
- Adding Assassin's Trophy lowered her curve a bit, so she felt comfortable going down to 24 lands. She wanted 3 Ravine and no Treetop because of a desire to cast Anger of the Gods consistently, but likes Treetop if you're expecting a lot of U/W control.
Beyond that, there's a lot of the great detailed analysis that makes her a Premium writer to begin with. It's definitely worth the full read.
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My Sb
3 FM
2 spellbomb
1 damnation
2 anger
1 EE
2 CB
2 finks
1 Hunt Master
1 ancit grudge
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
If you are walking down that path hoe about more fetches, wild nacatl and death shadows?
Sol malka said on the scg tour (basically the guy who created rock in modern), said no gbx player should be playing with less than 4 Bob's in the deck...as it's often our best turn 2 play. Yet we cut to 3x Bob's.
Thoughts?
I really liked the words from Sol in the deck tech and I definitely think he is right. But I am not sure about the difference between 3 and 4 bob. Yeah he said we should also not cut down to 3 copies, but I think In jund this issue is a bit more difficult, since the Jund manabase is way more painful than in Rock. Therefore I would never cut Bob in Rock. but I think in Jund it has merits, as lifetotals matters.
And concerning Rock, I think the biggest thing to take away here is to not follow the statement of Hoogland who started all this nonsense. He said you should replace Bob with Tracker, which is just ridiculous. Tracker is not Bob, and I am trying my best to correct this everyhwere I can (on fb, on the discord server and on reddit) and as it seems people begin to listen now for which reason sol malkas statement helped pretty much.
But solely concerning Jund, I think 3 Bobs are fine to hedge against aggro decks. Its because the manabase is way more painful.
I definitely cut a land on the draw against every aggro deck. I think with 25 lands you can also do it on the play if you have lowered your curve after SB. And I usually cut Bob down to 2 copies for that matchup but only on the draw as the pressure on the lifetotals ios much higher when Humans is on the play. Same goes for Spirits. I think on the play Bob is still quite good though.
The thing is though that it would suggest that there is a "Tracker version" and a "bob version" in Rock. However, I think whether to run or not to run Tracker in Rock is pretty much off the table, I think its an auto include. Its just Rocks BBE. So the question is to replace Bob with Tasigur actually, it has hardly anything to do with Tracker. Hoogland pretty much plays Tasigurs and some extra spells in place of Bob. And I think that is the wrong part.
Mardu Pyromancer
Grixis Shadow
Traverse Shadow
Jund
Abzan
The Rock
Yeah you can do that, I occasionaly do it as well.
Doesn't look like any jund list ran voids to deal with dredge, guess a mish mash of spellbomb, cage and surgical is the way to go.
Docker, equipment is bad in modern and it's slow, clunky and can penalize you hard wasting a turn doing nothing. Equipment will continue to rarely be good without a certain banned card being reintroduced.
Delver, jadines land isnt that big of a deal. My land base is similar except I run 3x mires and 1 foothills. Dont think I'm running 4x forests right now. Maybe I should.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/9rw5ex/building_consistant_manabases_for_gbx_decks_a/
Jadine's manabase is almost exactly what we typically played in 2015-2016, and it was generally stable enough to support Anger and Finks if you fetched with those cards in mind. In general, the construction of her main deck looks like a throwback to that era of Jund, which I really like.
I ran it this past weekend for a bunch of side events at GP NJ, and it's been very strong against Mardu Pyromancer (They have wear // tear and anguished unmaking, both 1-2 copies at most in the board) which knocks Revelers up to 8 mana, shuts off Souls, screws up Looting. The Dredge and KCI matchups are both solid but they can board in more answers (Mostly Nature's Claim, but KCI has Back to Nature and can pop a 4 {X} Eng. Explosives). Storm has to have a Repeal or Echoing Truth to bounce it before they can combo off with Past in Flames; which seems hit or miss g2/3 if they sideboard that out knowing we have graveyard hate.
Anger of the Gods and Courser of Kruphix were main-deck staples or at least very nearly so a few years ago. If it's what you need, then it's what you need. It doesn't really matter what's going on in the Pro Tour does it?
I rather like the idea of a sweeper with more utility. I'm actually thinking of running Engineered Explosives main-deck. It works on non-creatures and since I see Humans EVERY FNM, it could be a blow-out.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I just like having a better game 1 and losing the die roll. Gives me a main deck "oh sh*t" out. The biggest reason I love Jund is that plays a one for one attrition/control game and turns the corner with Goyf and Ravines after Lili, discard, and removal have done their part.
Now that hollow one and human’s stock has gone down a bit I think Bob is getting better, just for my two cents. Still, I don’t know that I ever want to play the full 4 again. It’s such a serious liability in multiples (unless you’re fighting a grind battle or your opponent gives 0 *****s about your health) and I’ve really been happy with a deck playing only 2. Might be time to bump up to 3 perhaps tho.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
Really a good read material for me as a Jund beginner
I am agreed on the point that utilization of every single mana to reach the max point of deck's consistency. We should try to play every spell in our hand without leaving any room for unused mana to get value and outgrind opponent as many of our spells are 1 for 1 or 2 for 1, and we are able to do so as every turn we able to hit land drop. No matter how, Jund playstyle is winning mtg game by out-value opponent. With present of red with bolt, BBE and command, we can be on fast and on par with other aggro deck compared to BG rock or other blue control decks.
Just some point in my head, we will need to fix our color first, I would know that first few turn would be painful due to fixing the manabase. If the beginning hand is abit risky and painful, do we still play the spell consistently especially against fast deck such as human and hollow one? We know they will have a fast play, do we start with fetch to thoughtseize? or turn 2 still hit dark confident assume there is no other best turn 2 play?
Just want to know your idea and opinion on consistency VS matchup or risky play.
- The 4 Confidant/3 BBE split is a response to her expecting more uninteractive decks, where Confidant helps you find your sideboard cards and your life total isn't as relevant. If you're expecting more creature decks and midrange/control, she still likes the 3 Bob/4 BBE.
- She's super high on Assassin's Trophy, and credits it with freeing up her sideboard enough to play as much anti-dredge hate as she did.
- Adding Assassin's Trophy lowered her curve a bit, so she felt comfortable going down to 24 lands. She wanted 3 Ravine and no Treetop because of a desire to cast Anger of the Gods consistently, but likes Treetop if you're expecting a lot of U/W control.
Beyond that, there's a lot of the great detailed analysis that makes her a Premium writer to begin with. It's definitely worth the full read.