Good for you. We have already beaten this horse dead. I'm doing what works for me.
Ah, good old chaos. Trying to provide constructive feedback on your idea and be as conciliatory as possible and all I get is snark. That’ll teach me.
@Delver I guess my question at this point is: what is the “problem” with jund then? Because you keep mentioning “card filtering” (which in my mind means finding very specific cards for specific situations) which is very easy to fix by simply playing a bigger and more complementary spread of disruption spells. I feel like we must have a different idea of what the problem with jund is. Personally, I don’t think it’s filtering as much as it is the card choice.
I personally think the real problem with jund is that we’ve all been lulled into deckbuilding conventions that don’t work anymore. Mardu used to be a deck just like jund. It played 4 bobs, and a slew of planeswalkers and grindy value spells. It took basically reinventing the whole deck for mardu to become what it is today, and I think jund is in the same spot where we need to reinvent the deck. For instance, in my playtesting experience:
-dark confidant and BBE are underwhelming. Just play cards that are powerful in their own right. If I play a BBE or a bob and find nothing but air, I have a bear and I probably lose. That, imo, is the biggest jund problem right now: half or more of the creatures in your average jund deck don’t really do anything on their own.
-Liliana of the veil is not what she used to be, and Liliana the last hope is no better. They’re both excellent cards, but they’re both situational and by no means 4-of worthy anymore.
-cards like tracker, lavamancer, collective brutality I think are all traditional sideboard cards that are more powerful and flexible than people give them credit. In the current meta I think there’s a very strong case to be made for maindecking these cards, especially tracker which I think should be the new engine to build jund around.
The lootings replaced the 24th land and the 3rd scavenging ooze, still undecided but leaning positive regarding the pair of lootings. Aside from those lootings, the only card spots I'm not 100% on are the 3rd thoughtseize, collective brutality, and hazoret. That said, the only card I'd really want to add to this list is the 3rd scooze, and I think I like my current flex cards more.
Most of the sideboard is good I think. Bloodbraid elf may not be the best in a deck with looting, but I want this spot to be a real winner in midrangey matchups and don't know what else to put here. Maybe pia and kiran?
Unravel the aether is there because I hate bogles and I hate leyline of sanctity, plus I'd say it's better than grudge against KCI and tron for the most part. It's also a nice out to any deck trying to cheese you with blood moon. Grudge may be better with looting in the deck now though. Otherwise the rest of the sideboard has felt good.
Good for you. We have already beaten this horse dead. I'm doing what works for me.
Ah, good old chaos. Trying to provide constructive feedback on your idea and be as conciliatory as possible and all I get is snark. That’ll teach me.
That you think you're providing anything constructive for me based on past conversations is laughable and largely my issue with you. You see things through your lens and that's it. I mean since your way is clearly the best way, I'll just sit back wait for your 5-0 leagues to roll in. Otherwise, you are figuratively just beating the same dead horse.
That you think you're providing anything constructive for me based on past conversations is laughable and largely my issue with you.
What exactly is "my lens" then? Because I literally registered a jund deck with 4x faithless looting, 4x bedlam reveler, and 0 maindeck tireless tracker at FNM only a week ago to humor the idea of making faithless looting work in jund. I've done a lot of testing, tried a lot of different things, and shared my decklists and feedback about all of them. At least I take the steps to test an idea before I just write it off completely. I'm guessing you just never tried a tracker-centric build before writing it off? Because I certainly don't recall you mentioning it. So who's looking through only their own "lens" here exactly?
And before you get into it, I've played with 4x dark confidant in my BGx decks for about 3.5 years now and I've never been more pleased than I am after cutting him. I've also tested grim flayer, admittedly not with faithless looting, but found that he takes up deck space for a nice but ultimately superfluous effect. He's also usually just a mediocre 2/2 against decks that are trying to aggro you out and ignore your creatures (like humans or hollow one). And beyond that, he's another graveyard dependent card in addition to goyf, scooze, and now faithless looting. Granted he isn't just dead to a rest in peace, but if I was ok with getting screwed by grave hate that badly I'd probably just play pyromancer. One of the draws imo to jund over pyromancer is that jund is far more resilient to grave hate; the more graveyard centric you make your jund deck, the more you're going to lose that advantage.
That's my summation as to why I don't think your approach is going to work out so well. If you can address those issues then you might have a shot. And if you don't think that's constructive then I'll just stop trying, because you clearly have attitude problems when it comes to taking criticism, no matter how constructive or conciliatory I phrase it.
@Delver I guess my question at this point is: what is the “problem” with jund then? Because you keep mentioning “card filtering” (which in my mind means finding very specific cards for specific situations) which is very easy to fix by simply playing a bigger and more complementary spread of disruption spells. I feel like we must have a different idea of what the problem with Jund is. Personally, I don’t think it’s filtering as much as it is the card choice.
I personally think the real problem with Jund is that we’ve all been lulled into deckbuilding conventions that don’t work anymore. Mardu used to be a deck just like Jund. It played 4 bobs, and a slew of planeswalkers and grindy value spells. It took basically reinventing the whole deck for mardu to become what it is today, and I think Jund is in the same spot where we need to reinvent the deck. For instance, in my playtesting experience:
-dark confidant and BBE are underwhelming. Just play cards that are powerful in their own right. If I play a BBE or a bob and find nothing but air, I have a bear and I probably lose. That, IMO, is the biggest jund problem right now: half or more of the creatures in your average Jund deck don’t really do anything on their own.
-Liliana of the veil is not what she used to be, and Liliana the last hope is no better. They’re both excellent cards, but they’re both situational and by no means 4-of worthy anymore.
-cards like tracker, lavamancer, collective brutality I think are all traditional sideboard cards that are more powerful and flexible than people give them credit. In the current meta I think there’s a very strong case to be made for maindecking these cards, especially tracker which I think should be the new engine to build jund around.
Just to name a few.
I've been following this forum for quite a time, but just now that I already have the deck I'm confident to post here, and truth be told, I agree with most of what you said, mainly with the part of "more flexible spells", I'm not sure if it's time for more 2 for 1 spells or even a better "draw engine" or even... and different approach, but as I said previously... the deck must change.
I made a few different Jund lists, with slight differences and one Jund DS, with no Bob and no BBE... and it was the one with better results, but it helped me to see some interesting things:
- Dark Confidant: I think he's kind of overrated too, right now I'm running 3 in my "midrange Jund" I know it's a valuable card, but not what I expected
- BBE: is 8 or 80, it's the card that helps me to keep pressuring or... it's the card that does nothing with the cascade and it's a fantastic chump, this second case it rather difficult to happen but... it still happens and also... it's not interesting to be revealed with Bob... 4 damage in the mid-late game is brutal.
- Tracker: Sometimes I miss some aggressive stance and really prefer the Rabblemaster but, in all other situations he's amazing, I'm running 2 and found out thanks to him that Chandra ToD + Tracker is an amazing combination (I don't have Lili tLH), a counter + draw with all mana open is something to think about.
- Liliana of the Veil: is still good for me, but since the matches are more grindy sometimes I wish to not activate her +1, but now I'm running 3.
That you think you're providing anything constructive for me based on past conversations is laughable and largely my issue with you.
What exactly is "my lens" then? Because I literally registered a jund deck with 4x faithless looting, 4x bedlam reveler, and 0 maindeck tireless tracker at FNM only a week ago to humor the idea of making faithless looting work in jund. I've done a lot of testing, tried a lot of different things, and shared my decklists and feedback about all of them. At least I take the steps to test an idea before I just write it off completely. I'm guessing you just never tried a tracker-centric build before writing it off? Because I certainly don't recall you mentioning it. So who's looking through only their own "lens" here exactly?
And before you get into it, I've played with 4x dark confidant in my BGx decks for about 3.5 years now and I've never been more pleased than I am after cutting him. I've also tested grim flayer, admittedly not with faithless looting, but found that he takes up deck space for a nice but ultimately superfluous effect. He's also usually just a mediocre 2/2 against decks that are trying to aggro you out and ignore your creatures (like humans or hollow one). And beyond that, he's another graveyard dependent card in addition to goyf, scooze, and now faithless looting. Granted he isn't just dead to a rest in peace, but if I was ok with getting screwed by grave hate that badly I'd probably just play pyromancer. One of the draws imo to jund over pyromancer is that jund is far more resilient to grave hate; the more graveyard centric you make your jund deck, the more you're going to lose that advantage.
That's my summation as to why I don't think your approach is going to work out so well. If you can address those issues then you might have a shot. And if you don't think that's constructive then I'll just stop trying, because you clearly have attitude problems when it comes to taking criticism, no matter how constructive or conciliatory I phrase it.
You think the generic Jund should change. Great! So do I. How it should change we definitely disagree on. I'm not at all concerned with the graveyard-centric nature of what I'm doing. If you want to bring graveyard hate in against me, go for it. I'm very capable of beating it. I know because I've done so online. I also remember this being a possible issue when Flayer Jund was a thing. I also still play threats that don't care about the graveyard. As long as I can get to the spells I care about in a timely manner, that is what I'm trying to change. I would like to increase my chance of seeing cards that just might wreck my opponent if I can get to them in time. This is why I don't really care to address your points because (again) that's not my concern. I don't care about the same things that you're focused on. I'm just trying to find a way to make the deck more consistent as far as seeing the spells I care about. Most of them aren't creatures.
In another way, your critique does nothing for me because you seem set on what you think is the right way to do things. There's nothing wrong with your way in a vacuum. You do what works for you. However, that doesn't mean it's the only way. I mean you want to talk about the deck being graveyard-centric as a bad thing when 5 out of the top 16 deck at GP Sao Paulo did fairly well doing so. I would really love to delve into the Day 2 metagame of that tournament because I believe the field is wide open. There is no clear top dog right now if you roll out to a major tourney, which also means the hate players choose is based on what they don't want to lose to. It's a trend I'm seeing in more wide open fields that doesn't translate to your LGS (unless it's huge).
I test a ton of things with Jund and Jeskai. I just don't feel a need to post everything I do. I've played with Tracker before as I've told you. I also said it was incredibly slow, and it is significantly worse against big mana decks than Dark Confidant or Grim Flayer (which was mentioned a while ago when there was a big mana resurgence). I'm also testing a Jeskai control shell with multiple Archangel Avacyn too. The only reason I mentioned what I'm doing lately was a direct response to a comment already made concerning Bloodbraid Elf. Do you want me to send you daily status reports?
@chaos021 :
you disagree ok, and ? Try to be objective and help no matter what.
I disagree with 80% of things said by Delver and i don't personally attack him no ?
Anyone can test whatever i want, discuss on anything with anyone.
You can disagree like all of us but don't be like that please.
If you don't want discuss on Tempest's points, why do we spend time to discuss on yours ?
So can you just stop or drop this discussion ? Or maybe try to more objective ?
Then don't? I don't need to discuss what's good in Jund right now. That's not the problem I'm trying to fix.
@Delver I guess my question at this point is: what is the “problem” with jund then? Because you keep mentioning “card filtering” (which in my mind means finding very specific cards for specific situations) which is very easy to fix by simply playing a bigger and more complementary spread of disruption spells. I feel like we must have a different idea of what the problem with jund is. Personally, I don’t think it’s filtering as much as it is the card choice.
We talked about this before, yeah, we have different opinions on what the problem for Jund is. In my mind, its still the inconsistancy I kept talking for a long time now. Looting as a card would help, but then there is Mardu, which simply executes this plan significantly better, that there is no reason left to play Jund competitively but for fun reasons. Let me ask your a question: If the problem for Jund is simply card choices, why is Jund not present in the meta? There was a recent GP where lots of good Pros played in. You can't really believe that if Jund would still be great, that its simply due to card choices. I think we could agree that we would see better results for Jund already due to that. So, why do you think Jund is not represented in the current metagamy anymore?
I personally think the real problem with jund is that we’ve all been lulled into deckbuilding conventions that don’t work anymore. Mardu used to be a deck just like jund. It played 4 bobs, and a slew of planeswalkers and grindy value spells. It took basically reinventing the whole deck for mardu to become what it is today, and I think jund is in the same spot where we need to reinvent the deck. For instance, in my playtesting experience:
-dark confidant and BBE are underwhelming. Just play cards that are powerful in their own right. If I play a BBE or a bob and find nothing but air, I have a bear and I probably lose. That, imo, is the biggest jund problem right now: half or more of the creatures in your average jund deck don’t really do anything on their own.
BBE is indeed underwhelming, I cut BBE a while ago. Bob is worse now, but I don't think its wrong to still run him. Max 3 copies of course but still not the worst.
-Liliana of the veil is not what she used to be, and Liliana the last hope is no better. They’re both excellent cards, but they’re both situational and by no means 4-of worthy anymore.
That basically means Jund as a deck is already in a bad spot. Junds philosophy is basically that LoTV is a powerful card that win any match. If that isnt true anymore, my alarm bells are ringing.
-cards like tracker, lavamancer, collective brutality I think are all traditional sideboard cards that are more powerful and flexible than people give them credit. In the current meta I think there’s a very strong case to be made for maindecking these cards, especially tracker which I think should be the new engine to build jund around.
Yeah might be, I like those cards as well.
Just to name a few.
To conclude and in response to your list, my personal list basically looks like that atm:
I don't see a big difference, its just that I like Flayer and Bob still, so whats the issue here?
Also, I would like to throw in a comparizon between Jund and Mardu here, and state my view on them a little bit more clearly:
You say Mardu is more susceptible to GY hate, and Jund has the advantage over Mardu that it isn't. This is true. However, I think you underestimate Mardu and its power under GY hate. It can certainly win through that. In addition, I don't think this advantage is relevant right now. Mardu literally won a GP right now. Do you think it didn't face RIP/Leyline or Spellbombs? I guess not. GY hate is not the issue, and certainly not the advantage that pushes Jund ahead.
Lets face matchups:
Tron: Jund has a better matchup against Tron than Mardu, however, I think we are speaking about a difference of 25/75 to 35/65 or so. Also, Blood Moon as a card is singlehandedly more effective against Tron compared to one Fulminator. Yeah BM won't win you the game, but I more often won a game against Tron when I had BM compared to when I had Fulminator in Jund (In addition to Goyfs).
Humans: Mardu is clearly better vs Humans. creating thousands of chump blockers and the power of looting help you to find multiple bolts, multiple Pushes and so on. In Jund you often keep a hand of 1 Push and 1 Bolt and after your destroyed 2 things you get beating up by the rest and either topdeck creatures or lands.
Jeskai COntrol: Mardu is clearly better. Souls plus Reveler is insane CA. also Bm is really good vs them.
Mardu: Well the mirror, Mardu obviosly is better here (50/50) than Jund against Mardu (Jund is unfavoured)
Burn: I would say the matchup is probably a small smidge better for Jund, due to the clock, but Mardu has 3-4 CB and 2 Kambals in the SB, which are all bombs. Jund usually only has 2-3 CB and a couple OOzes.
Hollow One: Jund cannot outgrind the deck. And yes, I mean grinding. Hollow One is not an aggro deck all the times. It is an tempo deck which tries to win fast through its explosives starts, however, if that doesn't wokr, they simply outgrind you with Phoenixes and Bloodghasts and hardcast Street Wraiths. Jund cannot beat that consistanty. Mardu can grind harder than Hollow One and therefore can win the lategame. However, both decks can die to a fast start from Hollow One.
Affinity: Mardu is better here, this is the nightmare matchup for Affinity and Mardu basically can't loose to it.
KCI: Jund has a faster clock, but Mardu has more interaction and pwoerful cards like 3 kCommands, 2 Kambals, more discard and more consistant removal.
Grixis Shadow: Mardu can just throw a bunch of YP token in fron of their threats and easily build ahead. Jund struggles with delve threats at times, and needs to have the answers available. Also Stubborn is a blowout sometimes.
Is it because we've all spent too much on Tarmogoyfs? Hahaha
Sorry couldn't resist... that's half of my reasoning though... lol On a more serious note: I really like your list FlyingDelver! Seems very lean - have you missed the addition LotV/LtLH in your main?
And through your games have you played vs. Jeskai control? (And if yes how did your list feel?)
Thats fair, thats what I can get behind with, you can play it fits your playstyle better and if its more fun, sure. I am just arguing for the pure sake of competititveness.
I maybe try to play 3 LoTV in the future, but so far it has been fine. I like the additional LtLH in the side for sure.
Didn't yet play against Jeskai, but it seems tough. Thrun should help here. And of course Tracker is your best source of CA here.
There is always some Jund in top 32 and 5-0 leagues no ? I can believe there is 5% of chances on the following fact : 95% of Jund players play BBE classic list and it's just bad. I don't talk for Tempest but i am realistic on this point and it's with a work like we try to do here, some guys (1 for 100 000) find something nice. And not forgot in Modern, it's a better idea to play very good a average deck than play bad a better deck. So it's totally logical than you (Delver) choose Mardu over Jund.
You cannot count Modo leagues, since Wizards changed their way of reporting results. Modern always gets a report on tuesday concerning leagues and has the challange on sunday. The leagues results cover many different type of decks, they only report each archetype once only. So that doesn't suit for a good metagame prediction.
Same remark about dredge at GP Barcelona but justification by an exemple not really work very well. It's just a fact (i guess) Jund have a quality on this point where Mardu not. But obviously i hope nobody think really it's a reason to choose a deck over an other one.
Well tempest argues in such a way that it seems it should be a reason according to him.
Not agree on Jeskai Control match right now but it's just a theory feeling because i never do Control/Mardu match.
About humans match i can say the same (true) justification like you : Mardu wins 70/30 against humans and Jund 60/40 by example,
so Mardu wins 10% more against humans and Jund 10% more against Tron. That's pretty close (i can run the maths, that can be interesting !).
Really not agree in Hollow One Match-up, i think tarmo and ooze are better than any souls and remove some bob and liliana will help.
I think you minimize a little too much the clock justification.
I can say against KCI, i play 4 k.command main deck and 4 brutality in the 75.
Against Death Shadow, classic Jund have more cards to deal with a fat guy but not my current lists.
Just to say, you explain why classic jund is not better than mardu.
I think we all agree of that.
Well, good players like Ayiluss can also confirm you that the Jeskai Control matchup is good one for Mardu. Jund has a way harder time fighting this deck.
You should play the Hollow One matchup with Mardu, you are overestimating Goyf. Goyf is only good in game 1, postboard they have access to some copies of Push and some BGHs, Goyf really isnt an issue for Hollow One. And Souls is incredibly strong in that matchup, you can build up a huge board stall where you can just fly over with your Souls for the victory over time. Reid Duke originally also thought Jund is fine vs Hollow One, but also he had to swallow the pill that this is just not true. I think most people are overestimating the clock argument in Jund nowadays. Mardu always can get written off with the argument of having a small clock. But ultimately that is not 100 % true and also not so devastating than many people think it is. If they want, they get access to Goblin Rabblemaster against tron for example. If we say a goyf is on average a 4/5 (land, sorcery, artifact and instant, the most common cards to be in the GY in the Tron matchup) and compare the clock to rabblemaster we see: turn 2 play goyf, turn 3 attack for 4 (play goblin turn 3 and attack for 1) then on turn 4: goyf attacks for another 4 (8 total) goblin attacks for 6 (7 total) turn 5 goyf attacks for 4 (12 total) goblin attacks for 8 (15 total), and so on. I really think against Tron rabblemaster is similar in stickyness, since tron decks run no pyroclasm atm.
That's the main point and probably the disagreement/problem here. I think Tempest753 not try to say Jund is just a better choice than Mardu but just Jund can have (maybe) an evolution over the closed skeleton with bob/liliana.
Maybe (MAYBE) your both lists are to close than classic jund and try to rapproach too much to Mardu where we should go on an other direction.
So i guess the idea is not : "Why anyone should play (classic) Jund and how udapte it ?" but "Does it exist any non-conventionnal build (with jund colours) which can be better than the classic Jund ?". My personal answer is 90% no. Now let's try to find the yes !
Doesn't matter how you call it, but if you shave LoTV down to 2 copies and play Bob as a 3 of (or less) and play 3 Looting, in my mind this is definitely a non-concentional build, and not a classic build but updated how you try to differentiate. And thats what I am trying to do all along, despite the disagreement, I just want to find any build of Jund that works better than the classic build.
Not trying to call anyone out, but I think this mindset is why jund is largely underperforming in modern:
I also agree with 3x Bob only but I don't want to cut him entirely as he's still good against specific decks despite being worse in general.
No disrespect, but if you acknowledge bob is worse in general then why play him? The tiny % you might gain in a matchup like tron or w/e is just not worth it. I think it’s worth mentioning that I don’t think the core of jund includes either bob or LotV; the real core is goyf, thoughtseize/iok, and bolt. Those cards are all quite good in modern right now, therefore I don’t see any reason to write off jund.
Yriel is spot on that I’m not trying to tell you jund is currently better than mardu. I’m simply stating that if we want jund to be back on top then I think we have to make some big changes. And to your credit Delver, you have been a really good voice for pioneering a new direction for jund, I just think you’ve misidentified the problem. The solution imo is not addressing a relatively non-existent card selection issue with digging effects that have poor syngergy, the solution is improving your card choices and somehow buffering yourself against flooding in the late game.
I know I have looting in my deck right now, but the feeling of playing every game on a mull to 6 with a deck meant to grind is kinda vomit-inducing. And I don’t mean that just from a feelings standpoint; that lost card is often felt in-game. I’m still working on making an informed opinion about whether that lost card is a reasonable trade-off for improved consistency.
If you want to win and nothing more, you should absolutely play the deck with established results. But personally, I’d rather put in the extra brewing work so I can win just as much with my favorite archetype. And I don’t know this for a fact, but I think the list I have going right now is very close to as good as mardu. I know it’s cockatrice and all, but I don’t remember the last time I’ve lost a match online and I’ve been explicit about fighting only tier 1 and 2 decks. The last one I can remember was literally a BG rock deck that was nearly identical to mine but more greedy, and I don’t expect to win that matchup anyways.
Lastly, people saying “well tron just isn’t winnable anyways” are definitely dead wrong. Put damping spheres in your board with a couple fulminators and the matchup is maybe 40/60 at worst. I definitely have a positive win rate against tron since doing so, I’ll say that much. With that kind of win rate, I’d say jund having a better tron matchup is quite relevant.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern UMerfolk GBWMelira PodRIP GBW Abzan Midrange GBR Jund Midrange
Yriel is spot on that I’m not trying to tell you jund is currently better than mardu. I’m simply stating that if we want jund to be back on top then I think we have to make some big changes. And to your credit Delver, you have been a really good voice for pioneering a new direction for jund, I just think you’ve misidentified the problem. The solution imo is not addressing a relatively non-existent card selection issue with digging effects that have poor syngergy, the solution is improving your card choices and somehow buffering yourself against flooding in the late game.
I think I am very aware of what Jund as a deck has to struggle with, especially when testing and playing to be able to maintain the primer. And I think we both try to address the same problem (arguing in a different way to say), but the actual difference is that you have a different solution to it. Well, whether my solution or yours is better will be seen. However, despite your argumentation, I showed you my list, and I think both our versions are not that different. It kinda seems to me that what you really are trying to do is convince anybody to play those 4 copies of tracker and the exact same numbers of cards you play as it seems to me at that point. In that regard you are not really open to other versions, which are essentially similar (like mine).
I know I have looting in my deck right now, but the feeling of playing every game on a mull to 6 with a deck meant to grind is kinda vomit-inducing. And I don’t mean that just from a feelings standpoint; that lost card is often felt in-game. I’m still working on making an informed opinion about whether that lost card is a reasonable trade-off for improved consistency.
Well you especially claimed that we should think different off Jund right now, so why should it still grind that much then? Maybe this is not whats about? I personally am very aware that Jund running Looting has lower grind potential, but thats what I also always wanted to say, I think this sacrifice has to be made in order to still compete somewhat. And thats the reason why I think Tracker is a good inclusion, as a grind machine it can help to mitigate the grindpower level loss of the onclusion of looting. The thing is still, you have the mindset that you easily can survive the early turns by naturally having or drawing the cards you need to do so and then win with tracker. I personally think that a card like Looting is neede in the early game to be able to actually survive that tracker can win the game. And thats where for me we have different opinions. The problem though, is still the same. Its just that with improving card choices the problem is not solvable. And I also told you about that (when we talked about removal), I do not make any hyper specific card choices for removal in my lists which I have been running for a long time, you are neglecting this fact that I basically showed this is not the solution.
If you want to win and nothing more, you should absolutely play the deck with established results. But personally, I’d rather put in the extra brewing work so I can win just as much with my favorite archetype. And I don’t know this for a fact, but I think the list I have going right now is very close to as good as mardu. I know it’s cockatrice and all, but I don’t remember the last time I’ve lost a match online and I’ve been explicit about fighting only tier 1 and 2 decks. The last one I can remember was literally a BG rock deck that was nearly identical to mine but more greedy, and I don’t expect to win that matchup anyways. Pretty bold statement. Well, we should see that strategy at the PT then right?
-with all due respect, just because you write a primer doesn’t mean you’re the sole authority on something. I think you have some good ideas, but you’re just as fallible as anyone else.
-I don’t give a crap about forcing my 60 down other people’s throats. But the whole crux of my argument is ‘drop bob and play tracker, trim Lili+creatures and play more spot removal/discard’, so yeah I am gonna be insistent as far as that’s concerned. You don’t have to listen to me, but that’s not me being closed-minded.
-why would you want to reduce the ability to grind when very popular decks like mardu and jeskai are seeking to grind you out? Not to mention that grinding capability is a big part of the reason why midrange decks are historically good vs aggro.
-I have no problems not dying in the early game because I have a deck packed full of removal, discard, and tarmogoyf-sized creatures. If I get a draw that’s just mono-3cmc (and it does happen, just relatively infrequently) then I mulligan. Wrong-half problems have gone way down since I cut bob and started gradually trimming lili, which is why I’m here arguing.
-How the hell would I know what shows up at the PT. The only people that should play jund right now. If I were a pro and wanted to win, I’d just stick with mardu because it’s tried and true. Even *if* this is the best jund deck out there, I don’t see why a pro would take that chance when it’s certainly no more than comparable to mardu power level wise. To insinuate that if it doesn’t show up at the pro tour that means I’m wrong is really disingenuous.
-I don’t give a crap about forcing my 60 down other people’s throats. But the whole crux of my argument is ‘drop bob and play tracker, trim Lili+creatures and play more spot removal/discard’, so yeah I am gonna be insistent as far as that’s concerned. You don’t have to listen to me, but that’s not me being closed-minded.
-I don’t give a crap about forcing my 60 down other people’s throats. But the whole crux of my argument is ‘drop bob and play tracker, trim Lili+creatures and play more spot removal/discard’, so yeah I am gonna be insistent as far as that’s concerned. You don’t have to listen to me, but that’s not me being closed-minded.
There's so much going on in just this line.
Then enlighten me ol' buddy ol' pal, since you're such an open minded genius, what's closed minded about saying 'bob is a bad card, tracker is a good card, and playing too many creatures and lilis leads to the wrong half problems everyone is complaining about'. Having an opinion is *not* being closed minded, totally writing off an idea before you've even tried it or given it serious thought is (hint,hint,hint). Infraction issued for flaming. --CavalryWolfPack
Yeah LEH, those are fair criticisms. The mirror match is definitely something I'm seeking to address, because even though I'm a little unimpressed with both BBE and liliana in the overall meta, they're both bombs in the mirror. I still think it's worth trimming them anyways because of how medium they are in the meta, but in the mirror they're both super strong. The baloths are meant to address problems in the mirror, but whether that's enough though I'm not sure.
I guess I just don't usually see the need for immediate CA? Like to me, CA is a way to close out a game, and spending a whole turn in the early game on a spell that does little but grind CA feels like an easy way to quickly lose against a deck trying to curve you out or combo you on turn 3. The general goal of this build is to run your opponent out of resources and then let tracker put the final nail in the coffin. Still, despite its strengths, tracker does absolutely have tempo problems. On the occasion where running your opponent out of resources proves challenging, the negative tempo from tracker can come back to bite. Tracker is too powerful to play less than 3, but I think I'd really like to cut the 4th tracker for a spell that can fill a similar role (ie help grind out a game while also having a strong board presence), but I don't know what other spell accomplishes that like tracker does. Maybe pia and kiran or huntmaster is what I want?
Anyways I appreciate you humoring jund tracker. If you've put any personal touches on the deck at this point, mind sharing? I'm curious to see how others approach the same idea.
EDIT: what do you all think about something like the following? It actually seems pretty cohesive. I have yet to test it, but I think it combines both delver's and my own approach. I'm not thrilled at the idea of getting hosed so hard by grave hate, but I've beaten grave hate before with a 4x reveler 4x goyf list, so who knows.
Haven't worked on a sideboard yet, but what do you all think? I think it checks a lot of boxes that we've all been talking about:
-faithless lootings to help filter at the beginning of the game
-only 3 trackers; enough to be found off looting but not too many to clunk up your hand
-5 bedlam reveler + trackers to help swallow the card disadvantage off looting
-I don’t give a crap about forcing my 60 down other people’s throats. But the whole crux of my argument is ‘drop bob and play tracker, trim Lili+creatures and play more spot removal/discard’, so yeah I am gonna be insistent as far as that’s concerned. You don’t have to listen to me, but that’s not me being closed-minded.
There's so much going on in just this line.
Then enlighten me ol' buddy ol' pal, since you're such an open minded genius, what's closed minded about saying 'bob is a bad card, tracker is a good card, and playing too many creatures and lilis leads to the wrong half problems everyone is complaining about'. Having an opinion is *not* being closed minded, totally writing off an idea before you've even tried it or given it serious thought is (hint,hint,hint). Infraction issued for flaming. --CavalryWolfPack
I have tried it. I've told you my opinion of it. It's clearly not what you want to hear/read. Besides, what I'm referencing is the irony in your statement.
-with all due respect, just because you write a primer doesn’t mean you’re the sole authority on something. I think you have some good ideas, but you’re just as fallible as anyone else.
Not gonna disagree. But you accusing me of not recognizing the problem is a little bit too far. We can definitely talk about this when it comes down to solutions, but not when it comes down to the problems Jund has.
-I don’t give a crap about forcing my 60 down other people’s throats. But the whole crux of my argument is ‘drop bob and play tracker, trim Lili+creatures and play more spot removal/discard’, so yeah I am gonna be insistent as far as that’s concerned. You don’t have to listen to me, but that’s not me being closed-minded.
As chaos recognized, this statement basically means you actually do. You basically critize every list which includes Bob at that point. You don't look at the whole persepective of the other builds. I for one gave you credit for the tracker thing and think you are basically right about including him (however, the reason is still Tracker over BBE and notTracker over Bob as you keep arguing). But my point here is, I do look at your list and think about your choices, while you don't even going into more detail about other versions. You write every version with Bob off and don't comment about clear counterarguments (like again the card choice issue, I have shown you that I do run more universal ansers, but it didn't help for better results)
-why would you want to reduce the ability to grind when very popular decks like mardu and jeskai are seeking to grind you out? Not to mention that grinding capability is a big part of the reason why midrange decks are historically good vs aggro.
Oh I don't want to. And I think you probably come now closer to the dilemma we have in current Jund. Junds problem is that it needs consistancy to fight linear aggro decks but also the ability to grind in midrange/control matchups. Well, it cant provide both realistically. So thats where you gotta decide, do you want more consistancy or more grinding power. Original lists basically are great at grinding, but clunky and inconsistant and they didn't work. So thats why I am now on the card selection train. Simple as that.
-I have no problems not dying in the early game because I have a deck packed full of removal, discard, and tarmogoyf-sized creatures. If I get a draw that’s just mono-3cmc (and it does happen, just relatively infrequently) then I mulligan. Wrong-half problems have gone way down since I cut bob and started gradually trimming lili, which is why I’m here arguing.
I think we can agree that the wrong half problem (in context to surving the early game) does not come down to which creatures we run if we run the same amount of answers right? So why should it be better then compared to for example my version?
-How the hell would I know what shows up at the PT. The only people that should play jund right now. If I were a pro and wanted to win, I’d just stick with mardu because it’s tried and true. Even *if* this is the best jund deck out there, I don’t see why a pro would take that chance when it’s certainly no more than comparable to mardu power level wise. To insinuate that if it doesn’t show up at the pro tour that means I’m wrong is really disingenuous.
Thats not what I meant. Its just commenting to your statement that you think your version is almost better than Mardu. I just don't think thats true, but thats just my opinion. (also my version is way worse than Mardu of course).
I guess I just don't usually see the need for immediate CA? Like to me, CA is a way to close out a game, and spending a whole turn in the early game on a spell that does little but grind CA feels like an easy way to quickly lose against a deck trying to curve you out or combo you on turn 3. The general goal of this build is to run your opponent out of resources and then let tracker put the final nail in the coffin.
Yeah absolutely, thats where we differ, I personally think we need some sort of CA in the early game as well. You say the general goal of this version is to run out your opponent on resources and then win with tracker. Thats a fair strategy, the problem I just have all this time is that I don't think you can run out your opponent on resources consistanty and by natural draws/mulliganing. Otherwise I am totally with you on tracker closing out the game.
EDIT: what do you all think about something like the following? It actually seems pretty cohesive. I have yet to test it, but I think it combines both delver's and my own approach. I'm not thrilled at the idea of getting hosed so hard by grave hate, but I've beaten grave hate before with a 4x reveler 4x goyf list, so who knows.
Haven't worked on a sideboard yet, but what do you all think? I think it checks a lot of boxes that we've all been talking about:
-faithless lootings to help filter at the beginning of the game
-only 3 trackers; enough to be found off looting but not too many to clunk up your hand
-5 bedlam reveler + trackers to help swallow the card disadvantage off looting
I like this approach basically. I am just not sure if 24 instants/sorceries are enough to support reveler enough, but you are playing only 2, so it might work.
Pretty sure those 24 instants/sorceries are not enough (even if it is just 2 revelers).
6 of them are reactive spells, so if our opponent doesn't have creatures they are going to be sitting in our hand. Or worse, if you do cast it and you are forced to bin your reactive cards for no value....
I like the idea, but I'm going to have to stick with the list you posted earlier FlyingDelver with bobs + tracker + looting.
Another question on that list: How has Grim Flayer been for you in testing? Were you able to land enough hits successfully to set up your draws?
Well, Mardu has about the same amount of reactive spells, its just that they play 4 Souls which add up to about 28-30 instants and sorceries.
Plus, you have to keep in mind that this version would play 23 lands, which is more than Mardu, so naturally you have to be okay with casting reveler for 3 or 4 mana on average. With more lands, we also have more landdrops.
I am not sure on Grim Flayer. I basically never liked the card, but felt it has to be a necessary evil. As of now it has been fine, but I can see cutting Flayer, since if you run Looting, it should work as well maybe. But not sure about that. I still like Bob as a 3 of.
Ah, good old chaos. Trying to provide constructive feedback on your idea and be as conciliatory as possible and all I get is snark. That’ll teach me.
@Delver I guess my question at this point is: what is the “problem” with jund then? Because you keep mentioning “card filtering” (which in my mind means finding very specific cards for specific situations) which is very easy to fix by simply playing a bigger and more complementary spread of disruption spells. I feel like we must have a different idea of what the problem with jund is. Personally, I don’t think it’s filtering as much as it is the card choice.
I personally think the real problem with jund is that we’ve all been lulled into deckbuilding conventions that don’t work anymore. Mardu used to be a deck just like jund. It played 4 bobs, and a slew of planeswalkers and grindy value spells. It took basically reinventing the whole deck for mardu to become what it is today, and I think jund is in the same spot where we need to reinvent the deck. For instance, in my playtesting experience:
-dark confidant and BBE are underwhelming. Just play cards that are powerful in their own right. If I play a BBE or a bob and find nothing but air, I have a bear and I probably lose. That, imo, is the biggest jund problem right now: half or more of the creatures in your average jund deck don’t really do anything on their own.
-Liliana of the veil is not what she used to be, and Liliana the last hope is no better. They’re both excellent cards, but they’re both situational and by no means 4-of worthy anymore.
-cards like tracker, lavamancer, collective brutality I think are all traditional sideboard cards that are more powerful and flexible than people give them credit. In the current meta I think there’s a very strong case to be made for maindecking these cards, especially tracker which I think should be the new engine to build jund around.
Just to name a few.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
EDIT:
4 blackcleave cliffs
4 verdant catacombs
3 bloodstained mire
2 wooded foothills
2 overgrown tomb
1 blood crypt
1 stomping ground
2 forest
2 swamp
2 raging ravine
1 grim lavamancer
4 tarmogoyf
2 scavenging ooze
4 tireless tracker
1 hazoret the fervent
SPELLS
2 faithless looting
4 inquisition of kozilek
3 thoughtseize
4 lightning bolt
1 fatal push
1 collective brutality
1 abrupt decay
1 terminate
1 dreadbore
2 liliana of the veil
2 maelstrom pulse
3 kolaghan's command
The lootings replaced the 24th land and the 3rd scavenging ooze, still undecided but leaning positive regarding the pair of lootings. Aside from those lootings, the only card spots I'm not 100% on are the 3rd thoughtseize, collective brutality, and hazoret. That said, the only card I'd really want to add to this list is the 3rd scooze, and I think I like my current flex cards more.
Sideboard looks like this:
2 fulminator mage
2 anger of the gods
2 nihil spellbomb
2 obstinate baloth
1 liliana, the last hope
1 bloodbraid elf
1 fatal push
1 unravel the aether
1 engineered explosives
Most of the sideboard is good I think. Bloodbraid elf may not be the best in a deck with looting, but I want this spot to be a real winner in midrangey matchups and don't know what else to put here. Maybe pia and kiran?
Unravel the aether is there because I hate bogles and I hate leyline of sanctity, plus I'd say it's better than grudge against KCI and tron for the most part. It's also a nice out to any deck trying to cheese you with blood moon. Grudge may be better with looting in the deck now though. Otherwise the rest of the sideboard has felt good.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
That you think you're providing anything constructive for me based on past conversations is laughable and largely my issue with you. You see things through your lens and that's it. I mean since your way is clearly the best way, I'll just sit back wait for your 5-0 leagues to roll in. Otherwise, you are figuratively just beating the same dead horse.
What exactly is "my lens" then? Because I literally registered a jund deck with 4x faithless looting, 4x bedlam reveler, and 0 maindeck tireless tracker at FNM only a week ago to humor the idea of making faithless looting work in jund. I've done a lot of testing, tried a lot of different things, and shared my decklists and feedback about all of them. At least I take the steps to test an idea before I just write it off completely. I'm guessing you just never tried a tracker-centric build before writing it off? Because I certainly don't recall you mentioning it. So who's looking through only their own "lens" here exactly?
And before you get into it, I've played with 4x dark confidant in my BGx decks for about 3.5 years now and I've never been more pleased than I am after cutting him. I've also tested grim flayer, admittedly not with faithless looting, but found that he takes up deck space for a nice but ultimately superfluous effect. He's also usually just a mediocre 2/2 against decks that are trying to aggro you out and ignore your creatures (like humans or hollow one). And beyond that, he's another graveyard dependent card in addition to goyf, scooze, and now faithless looting. Granted he isn't just dead to a rest in peace, but if I was ok with getting screwed by grave hate that badly I'd probably just play pyromancer. One of the draws imo to jund over pyromancer is that jund is far more resilient to grave hate; the more graveyard centric you make your jund deck, the more you're going to lose that advantage.
That's my summation as to why I don't think your approach is going to work out so well. If you can address those issues then you might have a shot. And if you don't think that's constructive then I'll just stop trying, because you clearly have attitude problems when it comes to taking criticism, no matter how constructive or conciliatory I phrase it.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
I've been following this forum for quite a time, but just now that I already have the deck I'm confident to post here, and truth be told, I agree with most of what you said, mainly with the part of "more flexible spells", I'm not sure if it's time for more 2 for 1 spells or even a better "draw engine" or even... and different approach, but as I said previously... the deck must change.
I made a few different Jund lists, with slight differences and one Jund DS, with no Bob and no BBE... and it was the one with better results, but it helped me to see some interesting things:
- Dark Confidant: I think he's kind of overrated too, right now I'm running 3 in my "midrange Jund" I know it's a valuable card, but not what I expected
- BBE: is 8 or 80, it's the card that helps me to keep pressuring or... it's the card that does nothing with the cascade and it's a fantastic chump, this second case it rather difficult to happen but... it still happens and also... it's not interesting to be revealed with Bob... 4 damage in the mid-late game is brutal.
- Tracker: Sometimes I miss some aggressive stance and really prefer the Rabblemaster but, in all other situations he's amazing, I'm running 2 and found out thanks to him that Chandra ToD + Tracker is an amazing combination (I don't have Lili tLH), a counter + draw with all mana open is something to think about.
- Liliana of the Veil: is still good for me, but since the matches are more grindy sometimes I wish to not activate her +1, but now I'm running 3.
You think the generic Jund should change. Great! So do I. How it should change we definitely disagree on. I'm not at all concerned with the graveyard-centric nature of what I'm doing. If you want to bring graveyard hate in against me, go for it. I'm very capable of beating it. I know because I've done so online. I also remember this being a possible issue when Flayer Jund was a thing. I also still play threats that don't care about the graveyard. As long as I can get to the spells I care about in a timely manner, that is what I'm trying to change. I would like to increase my chance of seeing cards that just might wreck my opponent if I can get to them in time. This is why I don't really care to address your points because (again) that's not my concern. I don't care about the same things that you're focused on. I'm just trying to find a way to make the deck more consistent as far as seeing the spells I care about. Most of them aren't creatures.
In another way, your critique does nothing for me because you seem set on what you think is the right way to do things. There's nothing wrong with your way in a vacuum. You do what works for you. However, that doesn't mean it's the only way. I mean you want to talk about the deck being graveyard-centric as a bad thing when 5 out of the top 16 deck at GP Sao Paulo did fairly well doing so. I would really love to delve into the Day 2 metagame of that tournament because I believe the field is wide open. There is no clear top dog right now if you roll out to a major tourney, which also means the hate players choose is based on what they don't want to lose to. It's a trend I'm seeing in more wide open fields that doesn't translate to your LGS (unless it's huge).
I test a ton of things with Jund and Jeskai. I just don't feel a need to post everything I do. I've played with Tracker before as I've told you. I also said it was incredibly slow, and it is significantly worse against big mana decks than Dark Confidant or Grim Flayer (which was mentioned a while ago when there was a big mana resurgence). I'm also testing a Jeskai control shell with multiple Archangel Avacyn too. The only reason I mentioned what I'm doing lately was a direct response to a comment already made concerning Bloodbraid Elf. Do you want me to send you daily status reports?
Can we also stop beating this horse?
Then don't? I don't need to discuss what's good in Jund right now. That's not the problem I'm trying to fix.
Are we all reading the same words?
To conclude and in response to your list, my personal list basically looks like that atm:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Windswept Heath
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Raging Ravine
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
Creatures [14]
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Grim Flayer
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Dark Confidant
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fatal Push
3 Faithless Looting
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Terminate
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Damnation
2 Collective Brutality
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
I don't see a big difference, its just that I like Flayer and Bob still, so whats the issue here?
Also, I would like to throw in a comparizon between Jund and Mardu here, and state my view on them a little bit more clearly:
You say Mardu is more susceptible to GY hate, and Jund has the advantage over Mardu that it isn't. This is true. However, I think you underestimate Mardu and its power under GY hate. It can certainly win through that. In addition, I don't think this advantage is relevant right now. Mardu literally won a GP right now. Do you think it didn't face RIP/Leyline or Spellbombs? I guess not. GY hate is not the issue, and certainly not the advantage that pushes Jund ahead.
Lets face matchups:
Tron: Jund has a better matchup against Tron than Mardu, however, I think we are speaking about a difference of 25/75 to 35/65 or so. Also, Blood Moon as a card is singlehandedly more effective against Tron compared to one Fulminator. Yeah BM won't win you the game, but I more often won a game against Tron when I had BM compared to when I had Fulminator in Jund (In addition to Goyfs).
Humans: Mardu is clearly better vs Humans. creating thousands of chump blockers and the power of looting help you to find multiple bolts, multiple Pushes and so on. In Jund you often keep a hand of 1 Push and 1 Bolt and after your destroyed 2 things you get beating up by the rest and either topdeck creatures or lands.
Jeskai COntrol: Mardu is clearly better. Souls plus Reveler is insane CA. also Bm is really good vs them.
Mardu: Well the mirror, Mardu obviosly is better here (50/50) than Jund against Mardu (Jund is unfavoured)
Burn: I would say the matchup is probably a small smidge better for Jund, due to the clock, but Mardu has 3-4 CB and 2 Kambals in the SB, which are all bombs. Jund usually only has 2-3 CB and a couple OOzes.
Hollow One: Jund cannot outgrind the deck. And yes, I mean grinding. Hollow One is not an aggro deck all the times. It is an tempo deck which tries to win fast through its explosives starts, however, if that doesn't wokr, they simply outgrind you with Phoenixes and Bloodghasts and hardcast Street Wraiths. Jund cannot beat that consistanty. Mardu can grind harder than Hollow One and therefore can win the lategame. However, both decks can die to a fast start from Hollow One.
Affinity: Mardu is better here, this is the nightmare matchup for Affinity and Mardu basically can't loose to it.
KCI: Jund has a faster clock, but Mardu has more interaction and pwoerful cards like 3 kCommands, 2 Kambals, more discard and more consistant removal.
Grixis Shadow: Mardu can just throw a bunch of YP token in fron of their threats and easily build ahead. Jund struggles with delve threats at times, and needs to have the answers available. Also Stubborn is a blowout sometimes.
So all in all, why should I play Jund?
Thats fair, thats what I can get behind with, you can play it fits your playstyle better and if its more fun, sure. I am just arguing for the pure sake of competititveness.
I maybe try to play 3 LoTV in the future, but so far it has been fine. I like the additional LtLH in the side for sure.
Didn't yet play against Jeskai, but it seems tough. Thrun should help here. And of course Tracker is your best source of CA here.
You cannot count Modo leagues, since Wizards changed their way of reporting results. Modern always gets a report on tuesday concerning leagues and has the challange on sunday. The leagues results cover many different type of decks, they only report each archetype once only. So that doesn't suit for a good metagame prediction.
Well tempest argues in such a way that it seems it should be a reason according to him.
Well, good players like Ayiluss can also confirm you that the Jeskai Control matchup is good one for Mardu. Jund has a way harder time fighting this deck.
You should play the Hollow One matchup with Mardu, you are overestimating Goyf. Goyf is only good in game 1, postboard they have access to some copies of Push and some BGHs, Goyf really isnt an issue for Hollow One. And Souls is incredibly strong in that matchup, you can build up a huge board stall where you can just fly over with your Souls for the victory over time. Reid Duke originally also thought Jund is fine vs Hollow One, but also he had to swallow the pill that this is just not true. I think most people are overestimating the clock argument in Jund nowadays. Mardu always can get written off with the argument of having a small clock. But ultimately that is not 100 % true and also not so devastating than many people think it is. If they want, they get access to Goblin Rabblemaster against tron for example. If we say a goyf is on average a 4/5 (land, sorcery, artifact and instant, the most common cards to be in the GY in the Tron matchup) and compare the clock to rabblemaster we see: turn 2 play goyf, turn 3 attack for 4 (play goblin turn 3 and attack for 1) then on turn 4: goyf attacks for another 4 (8 total) goblin attacks for 6 (7 total) turn 5 goyf attacks for 4 (12 total) goblin attacks for 8 (15 total), and so on. I really think against Tron rabblemaster is similar in stickyness, since tron decks run no pyroclasm atm.
Doesn't matter how you call it, but if you shave LoTV down to 2 copies and play Bob as a 3 of (or less) and play 3 Looting, in my mind this is definitely a non-concentional build, and not a classic build but updated how you try to differentiate. And thats what I am trying to do all along, despite the disagreement, I just want to find any build of Jund that works better than the classic build.
No disrespect, but if you acknowledge bob is worse in general then why play him? The tiny % you might gain in a matchup like tron or w/e is just not worth it. I think it’s worth mentioning that I don’t think the core of jund includes either bob or LotV; the real core is goyf, thoughtseize/iok, and bolt. Those cards are all quite good in modern right now, therefore I don’t see any reason to write off jund.
Yriel is spot on that I’m not trying to tell you jund is currently better than mardu. I’m simply stating that if we want jund to be back on top then I think we have to make some big changes. And to your credit Delver, you have been a really good voice for pioneering a new direction for jund, I just think you’ve misidentified the problem. The solution imo is not addressing a relatively non-existent card selection issue with digging effects that have poor syngergy, the solution is improving your card choices and somehow buffering yourself against flooding in the late game.
I know I have looting in my deck right now, but the feeling of playing every game on a mull to 6 with a deck meant to grind is kinda vomit-inducing. And I don’t mean that just from a feelings standpoint; that lost card is often felt in-game. I’m still working on making an informed opinion about whether that lost card is a reasonable trade-off for improved consistency.
If you want to win and nothing more, you should absolutely play the deck with established results. But personally, I’d rather put in the extra brewing work so I can win just as much with my favorite archetype. And I don’t know this for a fact, but I think the list I have going right now is very close to as good as mardu. I know it’s cockatrice and all, but I don’t remember the last time I’ve lost a match online and I’ve been explicit about fighting only tier 1 and 2 decks. The last one I can remember was literally a BG rock deck that was nearly identical to mine but more greedy, and I don’t expect to win that matchup anyways.
Lastly, people saying “well tron just isn’t winnable anyways” are definitely dead wrong. Put damping spheres in your board with a couple fulminators and the matchup is maybe 40/60 at worst. I definitely have a positive win rate against tron since doing so, I’ll say that much. With that kind of win rate, I’d say jund having a better tron matchup is quite relevant.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
-I don’t give a crap about forcing my 60 down other people’s throats. But the whole crux of my argument is ‘drop bob and play tracker, trim Lili+creatures and play more spot removal/discard’, so yeah I am gonna be insistent as far as that’s concerned. You don’t have to listen to me, but that’s not me being closed-minded.
-why would you want to reduce the ability to grind when very popular decks like mardu and jeskai are seeking to grind you out? Not to mention that grinding capability is a big part of the reason why midrange decks are historically good vs aggro.
-I have no problems not dying in the early game because I have a deck packed full of removal, discard, and tarmogoyf-sized creatures. If I get a draw that’s just mono-3cmc (and it does happen, just relatively infrequently) then I mulligan. Wrong-half problems have gone way down since I cut bob and started gradually trimming lili, which is why I’m here arguing.
-How the hell would I know what shows up at the PT. The only people that should play jund right now. If I were a pro and wanted to win, I’d just stick with mardu because it’s tried and true. Even *if* this is the best jund deck out there, I don’t see why a pro would take that chance when it’s certainly no more than comparable to mardu power level wise. To insinuate that if it doesn’t show up at the pro tour that means I’m wrong is really disingenuous.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
There's so much going on in just this line.
Then enlighten me ol' buddy ol' pal, since you're such an open minded genius, what's closed minded about saying 'bob is a bad card, tracker is a good card, and playing too many creatures and lilis leads to the wrong half problems everyone is complaining about'. Having an opinion is *not* being closed minded, totally writing off an idea before you've even tried it or given it serious thought is (hint,hint,hint).
Infraction issued for flaming. --CavalryWolfPack
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
I guess I just don't usually see the need for immediate CA? Like to me, CA is a way to close out a game, and spending a whole turn in the early game on a spell that does little but grind CA feels like an easy way to quickly lose against a deck trying to curve you out or combo you on turn 3. The general goal of this build is to run your opponent out of resources and then let tracker put the final nail in the coffin. Still, despite its strengths, tracker does absolutely have tempo problems. On the occasion where running your opponent out of resources proves challenging, the negative tempo from tracker can come back to bite. Tracker is too powerful to play less than 3, but I think I'd really like to cut the 4th tracker for a spell that can fill a similar role (ie help grind out a game while also having a strong board presence), but I don't know what other spell accomplishes that like tracker does. Maybe pia and kiran or huntmaster is what I want?
Anyways I appreciate you humoring jund tracker. If you've put any personal touches on the deck at this point, mind sharing? I'm curious to see how others approach the same idea.
EDIT: what do you all think about something like the following? It actually seems pretty cohesive. I have yet to test it, but I think it combines both delver's and my own approach. I'm not thrilled at the idea of getting hosed so hard by grave hate, but I've beaten grave hate before with a 4x reveler 4x goyf list, so who knows.
4 blackcleave cliffs
4 verdant catacombs
3 bloodstained mire
2 wooded foothills
2 overgrown tomb
1 blood crypt
1 stomping ground
2 forest
2 swamp
2 raging ravine
4 tarmogoyf
2 scavenging ooze
3 tireless tracker
2 bedlam reveler
SPELLS (24+2 lili)
3 faithless looting
4 inquisition of kozilek
3 thoughtseize
4 lightning bolt
1 fatal push
1 collective brutality
1 abrupt decay
1 terminate
1 dreadbore
2 liliana of the veil
2 maelstrom pulse
3 kolaghan's command
Haven't worked on a sideboard yet, but what do you all think? I think it checks a lot of boxes that we've all been talking about:
-faithless lootings to help filter at the beginning of the game
-only 3 trackers; enough to be found off looting but not too many to clunk up your hand
-5 bedlam reveler + trackers to help swallow the card disadvantage off looting
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
I have tried it. I've told you my opinion of it. It's clearly not what you want to hear/read. Besides, what I'm referencing is the irony in your statement.
I like this approach basically. I am just not sure if 24 instants/sorceries are enough to support reveler enough, but you are playing only 2, so it might work.
Well, Mardu has about the same amount of reactive spells, its just that they play 4 Souls which add up to about 28-30 instants and sorceries.
Plus, you have to keep in mind that this version would play 23 lands, which is more than Mardu, so naturally you have to be okay with casting reveler for 3 or 4 mana on average. With more lands, we also have more landdrops.
I am not sure on Grim Flayer. I basically never liked the card, but felt it has to be a necessary evil. As of now it has been fine, but I can see cutting Flayer, since if you run Looting, it should work as well maybe. But not sure about that. I still like Bob as a 3 of.