Yes Jund wihtout BBE works, just as it hab befor the unbanning, but i think the deck (without bbe) did not get better. It was Tier 2.5, able to win a tournament but not verly likly. Wiht BBE it felt like Tier 1.5, good and likly to win a Tournemant. I think that the overall gp hartford meta was ok for Jund (in the 24 Lands configuration) and that we just all need to practice the Hollow One Matchup a lot.
I think that hollow one is beatable with Jund (55-45 for them) if we are able to figure out the right timing and sideboard plan. Obstinate Baloth is not the card we want, as they only run 4 Inquireries that actually discard him, so the probability of it happening is not very high. They attak us from two angels, 1st fast and cheap big dudes (hollow one and Angler) 2nd recoursive threads. This is hard for us, since our best big thread removal is LotV, wich does not work if they have a recoursive thread. So i think locking them out on these and leaving in some number of LotV could be a good plan.
I agree with you hellkite, in terms of power level BBE Jund is the objectively better deck. The only reason I was looking to test out a non-BBE list was because the meta seemed to be shifted towards linear aggro and the meta at GP Hartford was definitely representative of that assumption. I think that's why I was able to do well because most of my matchups were against decks that BBE would've either been boarded out for more removal or just been cast as a win-more type card.
First of all, congratulations on your day 2! I'd also feel good with that record, myself
The lower curve does help. I agree that Liliana, the Last Hope usually underperforms and that's why my singleton resides in the sideboard. I don't feel she justifies another 3 drop in the main board.
I do disagree on the abrupt decay take. My comments are based on personal preference, of course, but many Boggles matches are won through favorable trades using abrupt decay as the game changer. It is also nice to have it vs. young pyro mancer based control decks. Of course, in many matches it is sideboarded out...
As a personal note, this week I'll try a list with 3 BBEs, 14 one drops and only 6 three drops as an attempt to improve my game vs. Humans and Hollow one. I feel that my cascades could get totally irrelevant, so I'd really like to have your take on your mana curve (other than not running 4 drops at all, that is).
I do think moving Lili Last Hope to the board seems to be correct. And yea I don't think that Abrupt Decay can be cut from the deck or anything like that, it's just that over all my matches it was mostly just a worse Fatal Push, while occasionally hitting a non creature permanent. Maelstrom Pulse performed better for me over the weekend.
I think the lower curve is really important in the Humans and Hollow One matchup. Especially Hollow One because their most important turns are turns 1 and 2. So cheap interaction to kill their Adepts or take the Burning Inquiry type cards from their hand is high priority. Scavenging Ooze is the single best card we have against them I have found, landing one on turn 2 with multiple green sources usually means we can get there. As for humans, Grim Lavamancer and Dark Confidant are really strong against them. Being able to keep a full grip while shooting down their x/2s and x/1s is what won me my match against it.
So maybe play 3 copies of BBE and add a low cost threat like Grim Lavamancer to the main. Would free up a SB slot which could be used to potentially run a card like Kalitas, which seems really good against Humans and Hollow One alike.
I am a big fan of this list FlyingDelver. I might test it out myself tomorrow to see how it runs, my LGS has more midrange and control so BBE is definitely good there. I need to pick up a Kalitas, everyone seems to be high on this card right now.
LtLH and K-Command were just two examples of flexible and cheaper options compared to BBE. My point is, you can't survive with a midrange deck in this meta if you don't start interacting on turn 1. Look at yesterdays top 8, there was not a single deck where BBE really shines. When Control and Midrange finally come back (I am convinced they will, because Modern is constantly changing), I would also suggest playing 3 or 4 BBE again, but I can't justify it now when looking at the amount of unfair and uninteractive decks.
I was the player that got dismantled on camera by Owen Turtenwald in round 4. I made many misplays on both a strategic and tactical level, especially in game 3, where I tried to make a cool but incorrect play and ended up on the wrong side of a 3-for-2 as a result. I went 5-3 in day 1, missing day 2. I lost to Owen on Hollow One, Tron, and Mardu Pyromancer. I had one bye and beat Hollow One, Storm, Burn, and Sun and Moon. I was not at the top of my game, and I think with tighter play, I could have turned two of my three losses around (not the Tron loss, just got blasted).
I played only 2 BBE and cut all 3 Fulminators for 3 Leyline of the Void, thinking that I cannot beat both Tron and Hollow One with Jund, and so I should pick which one I actually want to beat. This ended up mostly working out, as I only lost to one big mana deck (Tron) on Day 1. Leyline was nice. I know I lost two games to Hollow One on camera with it, but overall it felt like a strong and useful sideboard card. I also played 2 Cage and 1 Anger as GY hate, and in the future, I think those Cages should be Nihil Spellbombs to make topdeck Leylines less bad. I don't think this is too much graveyard hate. Hollow One is a really hard matchup that requires serious concessions to turn around. With the sideboard configured as such, I think it's 50/50 or maybe slightly better.
Overall, I do not think Jund is well-positioned at the moment. I have never felt my sideboard stretched so thin in all my years of playing this deck. Bloodbraid Elf does not solve any of our current metagame problems whatsoever. Right now it is just a fun card to play, nothing more. I personally find it enjoyable to try to interact no matter how futile it seems, but make no mistake: this is not a tier 1 deck right now.
EDIT: for reference, the decklist I played in the GP:
Personally, I think jadine has the right idea. I think the meta is too dominated by aggro at the moment, and for that reason I think bob’s utility is greatly diminished, and while he’s still a great card and good to draw I semi-frequently have draws with 2-3 bobs which is awkward at best and suicidal at worst. Im gonna try 3 bobs at a couple of modern events this week and see how it feels.
As a side note, I feel like I agree that abrupt decay just seems really mediocre nowadays. It feels more like a sideboard card to me since 90% of the time it’s just a worse terminate or fatal push. Anyone have thoughts on these matters?
I think for now I’m gonna run one decay in the sideboard only, and maybe bob #4 there as well.
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Modern UMerfolk GBWMelira PodRIP GBW Abzan Midrange GBR Jund Midrange
I will also try 3 BBEs and go as far as 4 Terminate. My personal twist will be maindecking Tireless tracker, as I want a three drop creature and it seems a little more flexible than the good old kitchen finks.
I honestly think we just have to wait until the meta changes again. Right now Jund cannot use the advantage of BBE, which makes the deck be as strong as before the unbannings. And I feel there is no good unexplored build to play right now that can crush the field. Just sit and wait then I guess. Small indication for that is also Pamplemousse again which did not submit any Jund list, but Mardu Pyromancer instead.
I honestly think we just have to wait until the meta changes again. Right now Jund cannot use the advantage of BBE, which makes the deck be as strong as before the unbannings. And I feel there is no good unexplored build to play right now that can crush the field. Just sit and wait then I guess. Small indication for that is also Pamplemousse again which did not submit any Jund list, but Mardu Pyromancer instead.
I saw you are also very active in the Mardu Pyromancer thread.
Could you be so kind and tell me, what makes Mardu Pyromancer so much better then jund? Isn't it also trying to grind out the opponents?
Its a few things combined. First of all BBE is not good right now, which we all pretty much experienced to a certain extent. That basically puts Jund back in the position where it was back before the unbannings. And during that time Mardu was the best performing midrange deck. So, why it is the best performing midrange deck? I personally think that one huge reason for that is Faithless Looting and its ability to filter through your draws and deck quickly.
In a vacuum, Looting is a card disadvantage card (net = -1 in cards) however, since Mardu has so much synergy regarding to the GY, discarding cards with it creates some virtual card advantage. And I really think the filtering highly matters. I almost would say its like Brainstorm, which is probably over the top, but often it feels that way. Fundamentally, I think general consistancy and ways to consistantly manipulate ones draws is a huge factor for general success. And I am talking about immediate manipulation, so not about cards like Serum Visions. The decks in modern are so fast atm, that you need immediate filtering, and looting provides that. Even off the top. And yes, if you have no cards in hand at this point, its worthless, but in Mardu you can easily operate on 2-3 lands only, and therefore you can just keep excess lands in your hand to have discard outlets from topdecked lootings, or later flashbacked lootings. Its just incredible consistant, and Mardu easily sees half of the whole deck in an average game. Jund has a big problem of not being able to do that. Mardu also plays way more turn 1 interaction in the form of about 17 CMC 1 spells, also less lands and therfore better topdecks. The spells Jund plays are arguably more powerful, but they are slower, and require more time to develop. The meta atm doesn't allow us to develop. Besides Bob, we can only hope to topdeck an action spell.
I seriously think the times where we were considered to be the topdeck master are long gone. I mostly loose games now by topdecking lands or drawing to few of them when playing Jund. Now if games go longer eventually you can find some action, but I just hate loosing against my own deck when my opponent just executes their gameplan and punishes me for that. I tried to keep land counts at minimum due to that (24) but since we can still not filter anything it doesn't matter that much. It always comes down to cross your fingers and hope for the best atm. Some people now might suggest to play Grim Flayer for filtering. This might sound good, but Grim Flayer is not consistant. It does not filter right away when you play him and he has to survive. Looting can be cast immediatly and can even be flashbacked later. Have you ever had situations where you just need that one Bolt off the top to win the game? With Jund, you have one draw. If you play mardu, you can potentially play Looting or flashback it or play Reveler, and if you combine those to you can see up to 6 cards in one turn. The odds of finding one single bolt here increase dramatically.
However, of course Mardu has also weaknesses. Its weaker to Tron compared to Jund. Its very weak to sweepers and susceptible to GY hate. Those disadvantages are problems, which are important to keep in mind, but the best decks in the format (Humans and Hollow One) don't punish those weaknesses atm.
I will also try 3 BBEs and go as far as 4 Terminate. My personal twist will be maindecking Tireless tracker, as I want a three drop creature and it seems a little more flexible than the good old kitchen finks.
I'll share how it goes in tonight's event.
OK, so I've played this list. Keep in mind I was testing some cards and curve, this is not a list I'd take seriously.
As stated I don't think this is a viable list, but I wanted to get the feel of a lower curve after getting blown out of the water by GW counters and Humans in the weekends, since I think those should be the decks Jund beats often.
Quick summary:
Round 1, W 2 - 1, Lantern control
First match was unasailable with only 2 abrupt decay mainboard to interact and a good start from the control player made me concede by turn 5. After sideboard I could stick a Bob, land a Goyf and break the only bridge and in G3 a well-timed Engineered explosives took 3 ensnaring bridges and allowed me to swing for the game.
Round 2, W 2-0, GW Kiki-chord
Played a known player. Cheap removal spells and a timely Anger of the gods taking 2 Voice of resurgence made it easy to run away with the game.
Round 3, L 1-2, Goblins
This was a hard loss against a much more skilled player. First game I got overrun with tokens, took the second game after a mulligan to 5 on my opponent's side, and loss the third game to a mix of tokens and a missplay on my part wich allowed my opponent to draw 2 cards from a Bomat Courier. A Grim lavamancer would have worked wonders here.
Round 4, W 2-1, Storm
I was a little afraid to play with fewer than normal directed discard, but landing a Liliana on both of the matches I won paired with GY hate took the match. As Storm is a deck completely capable of rebuilding the hands trough cantrips, I rate efficient GY hate along with non-targeted discard very high after the opening hand. Collective brutality can be hard to play here as Storm players sometimes want to land their Goblin Electromancer / Baral and combo off during their turn.
Some thoughts:
- While I didn't face Hollow one I felt really confortable playing "4" terminates (2/2 split with Dreadbore). One dreadbore is sort of stock nowadays and the second was an attempt to cover for the missing Pulse. It feels more playable against delve creatures in general.
- A personal favourite of mine, but I feel Tireless tracker is too clunky of a card for most match-ups. I maindecked two of them to improve my chances against control and the mirror, and only against Lantern I got to crack clues. I see it as a high-impact but relatively narrow sideboard card, even as a one-of in the main I'm not sure.
- Kolaghan's command on the other side... I missed it all the time. That's a more relevant 3-drop. I'm not sure if we should maindeck 1 or 2, but i'll keep 2 in the 75.
- I always felt that Grim lavamancer was underwhelming (I'd love to have something like Izzet staticaster at disposal) but I reckon something of the sort could be a game changer. Olivia Voldaren would be nice, but I wouldn't love another 4 drop and I'm not a fan of paying for each activation. Maybe she's too slow to be relevant.
- 3 BBEs felt correct, both because of the leaner manabase and because of the predictability of the cascade with so much removal.
End of the day, I feel like I have enough wiggling room to refine the list. Maelstrom Pulse just feels clunky and non-recursive at the moment, I personally feel more confortable running Engineered explosives in the side and some recursive removal ala Grim Lavamancer in the main. Nowaydays 2-for-1s feel as important as efficient and timely answers, and with the current meta I can't see the Pulse as a solution.
TL; DR: 2 maindeck Tireless tracker (predictably)feels like overkill and I wholehartedly agree with the last FlyingDelver's list, barring some personal preferences. If someone knows of a good card that sits (CMC-wise) inbetween Grim Lavamancer and Olivia Voldaren, I'm all ears! Maybe Liliana, the last Hope's +1, but I'd rather have a creature.
I've been super busy with the end of my master's program so I haven't watched or played much MTG
Have a lot of the jund players decided Jund is just not---good? Dylan Donegan said that Mardu has basically become the new Jund midrange deck of choice.
I had expressed that I was going 2-2 a lot with Jund at my FNM, it felt like there was raw power but I was underperforming, and felt like the meta was against me.
I've been super busy with the end of my master's program so I haven't watched or played much MTG
Have a lot of the jund players decided Jund is just not---good? Dylan Donegan said that Mardu has basically become the new Jund midrange deck of choice.
I had expressed that I was going 2-2 a lot with Jund at my FNM, it felt like there was raw power but I was underperforming, and felt like the meta was against me.
Was wandering where you have been lately. Can understand Master is busy, I am currently working on mine too
Jund is really just clunky and decks punish you for the reason that we cannot control our draws right now. Being in topdeck mode is now more a scary position to be in rather a good thing compared to the past. The mana is also quite sketchy at times. Jund as a deck just needs a slower meta to be great, but right now decks like Hollow One and Humans don't grant us the time we need.
Mardu is the best midrange deck atm in my opinion. I explained my reasoning before if you are interested in why.
I'd like to know why. I basically owned most of Mardu, just had to purchase the Revlers and 2x Pyromancers.
I started tinkering with Hollow One before I stopped posting for a bit, it was giving me more free wins than Jund, and so many broken openers.
Did the meta adjust too much or is BBE just too clunky in this deck?
And yeah, school got really overwhelming, I've been in the library every weekend lately. Just a 7 page paper and 2 presentations left before graduating
Then i have a 2 year grind of practice and supervision to get my clinical license for therapy before making money above the poverty line
I'd like to know why. I basically owned most of Mardu, just had to purchase the Revlers and 2x Pyromancers.
I started tinkering with Hollow One before I stopped posting for a bit, it was giving me more free wins than Jund, and so many broken openers.
Did the meta adjust too much or is BBE just too clunky in this deck?
And yeah, school got really overwhelming, I've been in the library every weekend lately. Just a 7 page paper and 2 presentations left before graduating
Then i have a 2 year grind of practice and supervision to get my clinical license for therapy before making money above the poverty line
Ah, you will eventually get there!
BBE is not a card you want to rely on when playing against a deck. But most games which involved playing BBE came down to that unfortunately. Humans and Hollow One pressure you so hard that often your best line is jamming BBE and hope for the best. And if you don't find what you need you are just dead. BBE is too slow and too costly atm. An idea was to trim the amount of BBEs to play more cheaper stuff like Lavamancer main again. Also Kalitas does look great again.
I did think about the Jund hype that took place immediatly after the unbannings. I personally think that Jund was mostly good because everyone wanted to play the deck. If more people play a deck, more good results will take place. Its as simple as that. But gradually Hollow One punched through the meta and punished every slow clunky player. The idea that both Jace and BBE are okay to have in modern due to them being not impactful enough is certainly true now. Maybe Jace will have its show now, since at the beginning Jace was really bad since BBE was everywhere, which is a good card against control. I don't know how the meta will react to Hollow One and Humans, it certainly has to shift in some way that Jund and BBE specifically can be great again.
Mardu has much more early interaction and is much more consistant in either filtering draws or mitigating bad topdecks due to Looting. Going wide is also something that helps better against both Humans and Hollow One. Of course Mardu is more susceptible to Tron and sweepers, as well as GY hate. But its very consistant which Jund honestly can't provide atm.
I am starting to think that Bloodbraid Elf feels bad in our deck mostly because it doesn't pair very well with Dark Confidant. They're both card advantage engines with no real synergy with each other. It feels bad flipping an Elf off of Bob and hitting Bob off of a cascade trigger doesn't always mean much.
I have tried the Jund list without BBE, which I did enjoy, but what if we went in the other direction? I'm thinking to support BBE maybe Sakura Tribe Elder could slot into the Bob slot to help cast it a turn earlier while also smoothing out the mana and letting us run a few more 4 drops. Maybe even run Blood Moon out of the sideboard.
Just an idea I had that I wanted to bounce off you guys. I could draft up a possible list but I am thinking like 4-6 4 drops and 23 lands with the 4 Steves. Seems fun.
I have tried the Jund list without BBE, which I did enjoy, but what if we went in the other direction? I'm thinking to support BBE maybe Sakura Tribe Elder could slot into the Bob slot to help cast it a turn earlier while also smoothing out the mana and letting us run a few more 4 drops. Maybe even run Blood Moon out of the sideboard.
I would look into Viridian Emissary, it keeps the 2/1 body, ramps, and can still be aggressive. STE is nice because you can choose and dodge exile, but he's not really a good speed bump the way Bob/Emissary can be. If your opponent is being slow, then you can pressure better, if they're being fast you can trade and get ramp. Removal still gets you ramp, even if it's Path.
I would look into Viridian Emissary, it keeps the 2/1 body, ramps, and can still be aggressive. STE is nice because you can choose and dodge exile, but he's not really a good speed bump the way Bob/Emissary can be. If your opponent is being slow, then you can pressure better, if they're being fast you can trade and get ramp. Removal still gets you ramp, even if it's Path.
Just an option to consider.
This seems awesome, didn't realize that card existed!
EDIT: But yea Steve can also be nice just because you can decide to ramp if you need to. Interesting choices all around when considering a 2 mana ramp card.
Just an idea I had that I wanted to bounce off you guys. I could draft up a possible list but I am thinking like 4-6 4 drops and 23 lands with the 4 Steves. Seems fun.
I like the idea of thinking a bit outside the box, and I'd suggest you try it to get a feeling of it. My initial feeling about the idea is that it is not going to work in the end though. I feel like such a big part of our game is sticking the T2 confidant and riding it home.
I'm also not quite sure I agree that flipping BBE to Bob is such a feel bad. BBE can easily be one of our most aggressive creatures - the haste text is not irrelevant.
Personally I've had minimal testing with a list on 2 BBE (with Kalitas and Huntmaster in the board). I'll report back once I've done some more testing with this build - but it did feel good against the aggressive decks in the few games I ran it, it also felt noticeably worse against control (as expected). I think there's still a chance that Jund can be good in the meta, but I think it requires a bit of change in mindset and mana curve, but also probably a downshift in either Humans, Affinity or Hollow One. Personally I think the Hollow One matchup is one of our most awkward matchups, and that we need to come up with a usable sideboard plan that somehow makes our spot removal live against them (I imagine it involves some sort of mix between Cage and Kalitas'esque effects). We need to turn our awkward cards usable I feel. I think if we can make the Hollow One matchup decent - we can get back to being the 55/45 deck against most of the field, and then hoping to dodge the big mana matchups.
The cards that BBE can flip is certainly better than years ago, but Shaman providing turn 2 LOTV's and turn 3 BBE's was also more oppressive. BBE is so good against fair decks, but I was not happy to see it against burn or humans.
I do think Hollow One is bad for this format. I actually wrote about how unhealthy I thought this deck was a while ago in the modern ban thread, I noted that it's way more consistent than people realized and wasn't "spinning the wheel".
Kalitas is looking fantastic. I wonder if Jund should go back to just playing 2x 4 mana creatures again, or if it should play 2x BBE, 1x Kalitas, 1x Grim lamvamancer. I don't even know anymore.
I've been playing Traverse Shadow for the last few weeks for that reason. I think the problem is that Jund wasn't well-positioned before BBE, and BBE isn't great against the current best decks in the format, and if you're going to run Jund without BBE then you're basically back to where we were before the unban. I think that the other issue is that Humans, Hollow One, and Affinity are all exploiting Jund's historic weakness to fliers, which is one of the reasons Mardu Pyro looks really appealing against those decks over Jund. If I wasn't on Shadow right now I'd be running Mardu.
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I agree with you hellkite, in terms of power level BBE Jund is the objectively better deck. The only reason I was looking to test out a non-BBE list was because the meta seemed to be shifted towards linear aggro and the meta at GP Hartford was definitely representative of that assumption. I think that's why I was able to do well because most of my matchups were against decks that BBE would've either been boarded out for more removal or just been cast as a win-more type card.
I do think moving Lili Last Hope to the board seems to be correct. And yea I don't think that Abrupt Decay can be cut from the deck or anything like that, it's just that over all my matches it was mostly just a worse Fatal Push, while occasionally hitting a non creature permanent. Maelstrom Pulse performed better for me over the weekend.
I think the lower curve is really important in the Humans and Hollow One matchup. Especially Hollow One because their most important turns are turns 1 and 2. So cheap interaction to kill their Adepts or take the Burning Inquiry type cards from their hand is high priority. Scavenging Ooze is the single best card we have against them I have found, landing one on turn 2 with multiple green sources usually means we can get there. As for humans, Grim Lavamancer and Dark Confidant are really strong against them. Being able to keep a full grip while shooting down their x/2s and x/1s is what won me my match against it.
I am a big fan of this list FlyingDelver. I might test it out myself tomorrow to see how it runs, my LGS has more midrange and control so BBE is definitely good there. I need to pick up a Kalitas, everyone seems to be high on this card right now.
I was the player that got dismantled on camera by Owen Turtenwald in round 4. I made many misplays on both a strategic and tactical level, especially in game 3, where I tried to make a cool but incorrect play and ended up on the wrong side of a 3-for-2 as a result. I went 5-3 in day 1, missing day 2. I lost to Owen on Hollow One, Tron, and Mardu Pyromancer. I had one bye and beat Hollow One, Storm, Burn, and Sun and Moon. I was not at the top of my game, and I think with tighter play, I could have turned two of my three losses around (not the Tron loss, just got blasted).
I played only 2 BBE and cut all 3 Fulminators for 3 Leyline of the Void, thinking that I cannot beat both Tron and Hollow One with Jund, and so I should pick which one I actually want to beat. This ended up mostly working out, as I only lost to one big mana deck (Tron) on Day 1. Leyline was nice. I know I lost two games to Hollow One on camera with it, but overall it felt like a strong and useful sideboard card. I also played 2 Cage and 1 Anger as GY hate, and in the future, I think those Cages should be Nihil Spellbombs to make topdeck Leylines less bad. I don't think this is too much graveyard hate. Hollow One is a really hard matchup that requires serious concessions to turn around. With the sideboard configured as such, I think it's 50/50 or maybe slightly better.
Overall, I do not think Jund is well-positioned at the moment. I have never felt my sideboard stretched so thin in all my years of playing this deck. Bloodbraid Elf does not solve any of our current metagame problems whatsoever. Right now it is just a fun card to play, nothing more. I personally find it enjoyable to try to interact no matter how futile it seems, but make no mistake: this is not a tier 1 deck right now.
EDIT: for reference, the decklist I played in the GP:
1 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Fatal Push
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Terminate
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Anger of the Gods
2 Collective Brutality
1 Duress
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
I think the maindeck is great, sideboard going forward should be -1 Duress, -2 Cage, +2 Nihil Spellbomb, +1 Grim Lavamancer
As a side note, I feel like I agree that abrupt decay just seems really mediocre nowadays. It feels more like a sideboard card to me since 90% of the time it’s just a worse terminate or fatal push. Anyone have thoughts on these matters?
I think for now I’m gonna run one decay in the sideboard only, and maybe bob #4 there as well.
UMerfolkGBW
Melira PodRIPGBW Abzan Midrange
GBR Jund Midrange
EDH
GBR Prossh
I will also try 3 BBEs and go as far as 4 Terminate. My personal twist will be maindecking Tireless tracker, as I want a three drop creature and it seems a little more flexible than the good old kitchen finks.
I'll share how it goes in tonight's event.
Its a few things combined. First of all BBE is not good right now, which we all pretty much experienced to a certain extent. That basically puts Jund back in the position where it was back before the unbannings. And during that time Mardu was the best performing midrange deck. So, why it is the best performing midrange deck? I personally think that one huge reason for that is Faithless Looting and its ability to filter through your draws and deck quickly.
In a vacuum, Looting is a card disadvantage card (net = -1 in cards) however, since Mardu has so much synergy regarding to the GY, discarding cards with it creates some virtual card advantage. And I really think the filtering highly matters. I almost would say its like Brainstorm, which is probably over the top, but often it feels that way. Fundamentally, I think general consistancy and ways to consistantly manipulate ones draws is a huge factor for general success. And I am talking about immediate manipulation, so not about cards like Serum Visions. The decks in modern are so fast atm, that you need immediate filtering, and looting provides that. Even off the top. And yes, if you have no cards in hand at this point, its worthless, but in Mardu you can easily operate on 2-3 lands only, and therefore you can just keep excess lands in your hand to have discard outlets from topdecked lootings, or later flashbacked lootings. Its just incredible consistant, and Mardu easily sees half of the whole deck in an average game. Jund has a big problem of not being able to do that. Mardu also plays way more turn 1 interaction in the form of about 17 CMC 1 spells, also less lands and therfore better topdecks. The spells Jund plays are arguably more powerful, but they are slower, and require more time to develop. The meta atm doesn't allow us to develop. Besides Bob, we can only hope to topdeck an action spell.
I seriously think the times where we were considered to be the topdeck master are long gone. I mostly loose games now by topdecking lands or drawing to few of them when playing Jund. Now if games go longer eventually you can find some action, but I just hate loosing against my own deck when my opponent just executes their gameplan and punishes me for that. I tried to keep land counts at minimum due to that (24) but since we can still not filter anything it doesn't matter that much. It always comes down to cross your fingers and hope for the best atm. Some people now might suggest to play Grim Flayer for filtering. This might sound good, but Grim Flayer is not consistant. It does not filter right away when you play him and he has to survive. Looting can be cast immediatly and can even be flashbacked later. Have you ever had situations where you just need that one Bolt off the top to win the game? With Jund, you have one draw. If you play mardu, you can potentially play Looting or flashback it or play Reveler, and if you combine those to you can see up to 6 cards in one turn. The odds of finding one single bolt here increase dramatically.
However, of course Mardu has also weaknesses. Its weaker to Tron compared to Jund. Its very weak to sweepers and susceptible to GY hate. Those disadvantages are problems, which are important to keep in mind, but the best decks in the format (Humans and Hollow One) don't punish those weaknesses atm.
OK, so I've played this list. Keep in mind I was testing some cards and curve, this is not a list I'd take seriously.
4 Blackcleave cliffs
3 Verdant catacombs
3 Bloodstained mire
2 Wooded foothills
3 Raging ravine
2 Overgrown tomb
1 Stomping ground
1 Blood crypt
2 Swamp
2 Forest
Creatures (15)
3 Bloodbraid elf
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark confidant
2 Scavenging ooze
2 Tireless tracker
4 Lightning bolt
3 Fatal push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Terminate
Sorcery (7)
2 Dreadbore
3 Inquisition of kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
Planeswalker (4)
4 Liliana of the veil
3 Fulminator mage
2 Collective brutality
2 Kolaghan's command
2 Kitchen finks
2 Nihil spellbomb
1 Rakdos charm
1 Engineered explosives
1 Anger of the gods
1 Liliana, the last hope
As stated I don't think this is a viable list, but I wanted to get the feel of a lower curve after getting blown out of the water by GW counters and Humans in the weekends, since I think those should be the decks Jund beats often.
Quick summary:
Round 1, W 2 - 1, Lantern control
First match was unasailable with only 2 abrupt decay mainboard to interact and a good start from the control player made me concede by turn 5. After sideboard I could stick a Bob, land a Goyf and break the only bridge and in G3 a well-timed Engineered explosives took 3 ensnaring bridges and allowed me to swing for the game.
Round 2, W 2-0, GW Kiki-chord
Played a known player. Cheap removal spells and a timely Anger of the gods taking 2 Voice of resurgence made it easy to run away with the game.
Round 3, L 1-2, Goblins
This was a hard loss against a much more skilled player. First game I got overrun with tokens, took the second game after a mulligan to 5 on my opponent's side, and loss the third game to a mix of tokens and a missplay on my part wich allowed my opponent to draw 2 cards from a Bomat Courier. A Grim lavamancer would have worked wonders here.
Round 4, W 2-1, Storm
I was a little afraid to play with fewer than normal directed discard, but landing a Liliana on both of the matches I won paired with GY hate took the match. As Storm is a deck completely capable of rebuilding the hands trough cantrips, I rate efficient GY hate along with non-targeted discard very high after the opening hand. Collective brutality can be hard to play here as Storm players sometimes want to land their Goblin Electromancer / Baral and combo off during their turn.
Some thoughts:
- While I didn't face Hollow one I felt really confortable playing "4" terminates (2/2 split with Dreadbore). One dreadbore is sort of stock nowadays and the second was an attempt to cover for the missing Pulse. It feels more playable against delve creatures in general.
- A personal favourite of mine, but I feel Tireless tracker is too clunky of a card for most match-ups. I maindecked two of them to improve my chances against control and the mirror, and only against Lantern I got to crack clues. I see it as a high-impact but relatively narrow sideboard card, even as a one-of in the main I'm not sure.
- Kolaghan's command on the other side... I missed it all the time. That's a more relevant 3-drop. I'm not sure if we should maindeck 1 or 2, but i'll keep 2 in the 75.
- I always felt that Grim lavamancer was underwhelming (I'd love to have something like Izzet staticaster at disposal) but I reckon something of the sort could be a game changer. Olivia Voldaren would be nice, but I wouldn't love another 4 drop and I'm not a fan of paying for each activation. Maybe she's too slow to be relevant.
- 3 BBEs felt correct, both because of the leaner manabase and because of the predictability of the cascade with so much removal.
End of the day, I feel like I have enough wiggling room to refine the list. Maelstrom Pulse just feels clunky and non-recursive at the moment, I personally feel more confortable running Engineered explosives in the side and some recursive removal ala Grim Lavamancer in the main. Nowaydays 2-for-1s feel as important as efficient and timely answers, and with the current meta I can't see the Pulse as a solution.
TL; DR: 2 maindeck Tireless tracker (predictably)feels like overkill and I wholehartedly agree with the last FlyingDelver's list, barring some personal preferences. If someone knows of a good card that sits (CMC-wise) inbetween Grim Lavamancer and Olivia Voldaren, I'm all ears! Maybe Liliana, the last Hope's +1, but I'd rather have a creature.
Have a lot of the jund players decided Jund is just not---good? Dylan Donegan said that Mardu has basically become the new Jund midrange deck of choice.
I had expressed that I was going 2-2 a lot with Jund at my FNM, it felt like there was raw power but I was underperforming, and felt like the meta was against me.
Was wandering where you have been lately. Can understand Master is busy, I am currently working on mine too
Jund is really just clunky and decks punish you for the reason that we cannot control our draws right now. Being in topdeck mode is now more a scary position to be in rather a good thing compared to the past. The mana is also quite sketchy at times. Jund as a deck just needs a slower meta to be great, but right now decks like Hollow One and Humans don't grant us the time we need.
Mardu is the best midrange deck atm in my opinion. I explained my reasoning before if you are interested in why.
I started tinkering with Hollow One before I stopped posting for a bit, it was giving me more free wins than Jund, and so many broken openers.
Did the meta adjust too much or is BBE just too clunky in this deck?
And yeah, school got really overwhelming, I've been in the library every weekend lately. Just a 7 page paper and 2 presentations left before graduating
Then i have a 2 year grind of practice and supervision to get my clinical license for therapy before making money above the poverty line
Ah, you will eventually get there!
BBE is not a card you want to rely on when playing against a deck. But most games which involved playing BBE came down to that unfortunately. Humans and Hollow One pressure you so hard that often your best line is jamming BBE and hope for the best. And if you don't find what you need you are just dead. BBE is too slow and too costly atm. An idea was to trim the amount of BBEs to play more cheaper stuff like Lavamancer main again. Also Kalitas does look great again.
I did think about the Jund hype that took place immediatly after the unbannings. I personally think that Jund was mostly good because everyone wanted to play the deck. If more people play a deck, more good results will take place. Its as simple as that. But gradually Hollow One punched through the meta and punished every slow clunky player. The idea that both Jace and BBE are okay to have in modern due to them being not impactful enough is certainly true now. Maybe Jace will have its show now, since at the beginning Jace was really bad since BBE was everywhere, which is a good card against control. I don't know how the meta will react to Hollow One and Humans, it certainly has to shift in some way that Jund and BBE specifically can be great again.
Mardu has much more early interaction and is much more consistant in either filtering draws or mitigating bad topdecks due to Looting. Going wide is also something that helps better against both Humans and Hollow One. Of course Mardu is more susceptible to Tron and sweepers, as well as GY hate. But its very consistant which Jund honestly can't provide atm.
I have tried the Jund list without BBE, which I did enjoy, but what if we went in the other direction? I'm thinking to support BBE maybe Sakura Tribe Elder could slot into the Bob slot to help cast it a turn earlier while also smoothing out the mana and letting us run a few more 4 drops. Maybe even run Blood Moon out of the sideboard.
Just an idea I had that I wanted to bounce off you guys. I could draft up a possible list but I am thinking like 4-6 4 drops and 23 lands with the 4 Steves. Seems fun.
Just an option to consider.
"Reveal a Dragon"
This seems awesome, didn't realize that card existed!
EDIT: But yea Steve can also be nice just because you can decide to ramp if you need to. Interesting choices all around when considering a 2 mana ramp card.
I like the idea of thinking a bit outside the box, and I'd suggest you try it to get a feeling of it. My initial feeling about the idea is that it is not going to work in the end though. I feel like such a big part of our game is sticking the T2 confidant and riding it home.
I'm also not quite sure I agree that flipping BBE to Bob is such a feel bad. BBE can easily be one of our most aggressive creatures - the haste text is not irrelevant.
Personally I've had minimal testing with a list on 2 BBE (with Kalitas and Huntmaster in the board). I'll report back once I've done some more testing with this build - but it did feel good against the aggressive decks in the few games I ran it, it also felt noticeably worse against control (as expected). I think there's still a chance that Jund can be good in the meta, but I think it requires a bit of change in mindset and mana curve, but also probably a downshift in either Humans, Affinity or Hollow One. Personally I think the Hollow One matchup is one of our most awkward matchups, and that we need to come up with a usable sideboard plan that somehow makes our spot removal live against them (I imagine it involves some sort of mix between Cage and Kalitas'esque effects). We need to turn our awkward cards usable I feel. I think if we can make the Hollow One matchup decent - we can get back to being the 55/45 deck against most of the field, and then hoping to dodge the big mana matchups.
The cards that BBE can flip is certainly better than years ago, but Shaman providing turn 2 LOTV's and turn 3 BBE's was also more oppressive. BBE is so good against fair decks, but I was not happy to see it against burn or humans.
I do think Hollow One is bad for this format. I actually wrote about how unhealthy I thought this deck was a while ago in the modern ban thread, I noted that it's way more consistent than people realized and wasn't "spinning the wheel".
Kalitas is looking fantastic. I wonder if Jund should go back to just playing 2x 4 mana creatures again, or if it should play 2x BBE, 1x Kalitas, 1x Grim lamvamancer. I don't even know anymore.