Very insightful (also thanks to hellkite12]). Maindeck CB was mostly to improve my game against burn, and at that you are right that IoK is not the card to cut.
I'll take out the surgical extractions and keep 2 nihil spellbomb for my next LGS, as that will allow me to restore the proper IoK and relegate CB to the side. Hazoret or Huntmaster are both options to cut the second tracker, as I think they hit similar matches.
As for the single ancient grudge, is it justifiable with 2 maindeck K-Commands and 2 sweepers on the board, or should I respect Lantern and Affinity more? I feel that maybe 1x Engineered explosives replacing a single Anger of the gods should help in the Lantern and Boggles matchups, too.
Thanks again! Much appreciated.
IOK is definitely in the top 5 of our best cards against Burn, so replacing it with CB won't increase your win% against it by much.
To add, Tracker is a fine card to run, if you like to do so. Its a powerful card that can win games on its own.
As for Grudges, many people here defend the opinion that you should not leave the house without 2 Grudges. Now, I think that rule is certainly fine to follow, but I personally would not see it anywhere near as being set in stone. I think about it more dynamicly. I think, since Jund as a deck is particularly capable of adjusting to different metas, that its very smart, if you recognize in a specific meta that artifact based decks are on the decline, to cut a singleton Grudge for something similar, that helps you in other more popular matchups. EE, like you mentioned, works perfectly fine for that reason. If you see Affinity and Lantern on the decline and maybe see an uptick in Bogles, its certainly right imo to replace one Grudge with EE. And I don't think, if you now still get paired against Affinity, that you horribly will loose the matchup due to that. EE can still kill any card from their deck and also kills etched champion. Its the small nuances and about the small % points of Card A vs. Card B that matter etc. Just be aware of the actual function of each card in your sideboard, not simply on the text on the card. Think multidimensional and about every aspect of the cards you are considering. Instead of asking "Is it justifiable to not run 2 Grudges in my list?" why not ask: "Is it justified to actually run 2 Grudges in my SB right now?"
Now, with this I don't want to say cut a Grudge and call it a day. I want to say that your question of whether to respect Affinity/Lanter more or less depends on your meta, your playstyle and your preference on which win% percentage you can more or less safely skimp on to increase other much more precious win% percentage points against other matchups.
Like, there are some Jund players having a harder time against Storm, despite it being a good matchup. But they just don't feel comfortable playing against the deck. Those people will certainly put more dedicated GY hate into their SB for example. Maybe others don't feel as bad against Big Mana and more or less win about half their games against it. In such a case maybe 2 Fulminators can be sufficient. I think those little personal "issues" are exactly the ones you need to exploit as much as possible. And I believe if you are very aware of that, you can squeeze the maximum and a good balance out of your 75 configuration. Thats what defines a good Jund pilot.
For that meta there are actually only 7 decks where I would side in Surgical against (2 Tron, 1 Valakut, 2 Storm, 1 Dredge and 1 Living End). And against 4 of those, Surgical is only okay and not great (2 Storm, 1 Dredge and 1 Living End). I would cut them completely and play another Spellbomb and a Cage, which would help better for all matchups except for those 3 Big Mana decks (except Cage against Living End of course, but Cage is also applicable against Elves and good against Counters Company).
As a more general aspect, I would not play both Huntmaster and Hazoret. You have a high amount of aggro decks where those cards arent that good against. I would cut the Hazoret and play a Finks or Liliana, the Last Hope.
Also I would always bring 1 Grudge, which also helps against Tron.
I like waiting till i have 2 surgical extractions in hand against Living End. Faerie Macabre can be a blow out if you use it at the wrong time and they have one in hand. To me personally it feels like the safest route against them as most living end decks run usually 2 mainboard.
@SiegeDino: I will probably try a 2-2 split of Damping Sphere/Fulminator. I'm honestly curious to see it's effect's on snapcaster decks as a whole (not grixis) as i get the feeling people will be SBing them in against UR/x and ramp decks a lot. I just see this will be one of those cards that follows the Surgical Extraction, Lost Legacy, Slaughter Games route.
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Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
For that meta there are actually only 7 decks where I would side in Surgical against (2 Tron, 1 Valakut, 2 Storm, 1 Dredge and 1 Living End). And against 4 of those, Surgical is only okay and not great (2 Storm, 1 Dredge and 1 Living End). I would cut them completely and play another Spellbomb and a Cage, which would help better for all matchups except for those 3 Big Mana decks (except Cage against Living End of course, but Cage is also applicable against Elves and good against Counters Company).
As a more general aspect, I would not play both Huntmaster and Hazoret. You have a high amount of aggro decks where those cards arent that good against. I would cut the Hazoret and play a Finks or Liliana, the Last Hope.
Also I would always bring 1 Grudge, which also helps against Tron.
I like waiting till i have 2 surgical extractions in hand against Living End. Faerie Macabre can be a blow out if you use it at the wrong time and they have one in hand. To me personally it feels like the safest route against them as most living end decks run usually 2 mainboard.
That seems like a really narrow sequence to setup a scenario that's still likely to be unfavorable.
I like waiting till i have 2 surgical extractions in hand against Living End. Faerie Macabre can be a blow out if you use it at the wrong time and they have one in hand. To me personally it feels like the safest route against them as most living end decks run usually 2 mainboard.
I think, if you wait for that, you will most likely be already dead at that point. What are the odds of finding the second Surgical before the Living End player going off? Not very good in comparison in my mind.
Yeah that certainly seems wrong. Otherwise though, I like the spellsuite of that list actually. Its close to what I would run if I would go back to 25 lands.
Well, I have been running 25 lands, and I legitimately don't know if I would ever go back to 24 lands. It just has the consistency I'm looking for. Having five creature-lands definitely helps as far as having something to do with your mana. Also, having a potential Treetop Village activation just does so much for me in little ways. In any case, that deck basically runs the spells I do. The only difference is that I have an Abrupt Decay in place of one Kolaghan's Command in the main deck. Sometimes I have a second Kommand in the sideboard, but Liliana, the Last Hope just feels better most of the time.
Well, I have been running 25 lands, and I legitimately don't know if I would ever go back to 24 lands. It just has the consistency I'm looking for. Having five creature-lands definitely helps as far as having something to do with your mana. Also, having a potential Treetop Village activation just does so much for me in little ways. In any case, that deck basically runs the spells I do. The only difference is that I have an Abrupt Decay in place of one Kolaghan's Command in the main deck. Sometimes I have a second Kommand in the sideboard, but Liliana, the Last Hope just feels better most of the time.
Thats great! In the beginning 25 lands felt floody to most people. 25 is certainly adding the consistancy we want for the higher curve. I am just toying around with 24 lands to see if I can find a configuration that is somewhat still consistant enough. Against aggro I really like 24. But against midrange and control I would like 25. But 25 lands overall is definitely the safest route at this point.
So only 1 KCommand in the 75 is fine for you? Even despite the popularity of Hollow One right now?
I haven't faced off against many Hollow One decks. I've been extremely fortunate in that regard. However, I've watched enough matches to have my own perception. Honestly, I feel like early discard is what makes or breaks Jund in the match. Without it, we're likely to get wrecked. With it, we can slow the opponent down enough hopefully to gain some traction. If they just get busted Goblin Lore or Burning Inquiry hits, I feel there's very little we can actually do without playing more Terminate in the main deck. Kolaghan's Command actually seems pretty weak to me against them. Again, that's just my perception without playing any meaningful (competitive) matches against the deck so I'm sure it will change.
I haven't faced off against many Hollow One decks. I've been extremely fortunate in that regard. However, I've watched enough matches to have my own perception. Honestly, I feel like early discard is what makes or breaks Jund in the match. Without it, we're likely to get wrecked. With it, we can slow the opponent down enough hopefully to gain some traction. If they just get busted Goblin Lore or Burning Inquiry hits, I feel there's very little we can actually do without playing more Terminate in the main deck. Kolaghan's Command actually seems pretty weak to me against them. Again, that's just my perception without playing any meaningful (competitive) matches against the deck so I'm sure it will change.
Yes, targeted discard is extremely important to beat that deck. However, since its draw dependant, discard might not be enough if they play Burning Inquiry on turn 1 on the play. That brings me to KCommand, generally its indeed weak, but often it feels almost like a necessary evil to stop early Hollow Ones preboard. If I get to kill Hollow one and also say a Phoenix, potentially also preventing it from returning the next turn, its not so bad. But of course otherwise the 2 dmg are unexciting and the discard mode is more or less useless. Don't know how relevant recurring is, but maybe its okay since we can bring back Goyfs postboard if they kill it with BGH. All in all it is just another out for their Hollow One intense openers.
I am wandering how a meta has to look like in order to make me registering such a list. BBE is just the best card in so many matchups. Can't be right to ever run less than 4.
Any advices on what kind of side-deck / configuration would be best to bring in a meta where a lot of people are playing PONZA / Land Loss type decks ?
I've just got back to playing at my local shop and I came to find that out of the 15 players last night, 3 were ponzas, 2 trons, 2 Burns, 2 humans. (The rest was mostly other midrange/controlly decks. Death Shadows. And a single ad nauseum and sword of the meek.)
Vs. Burn I'm bringing some collective brutalities, Kitchen finks, and Huntmaster (I'm running one main-deck and one side-deck and I'm loving it.)
Vs. Humans some Anger of the Gods and Huntmaster.
Vs. Tron I have brought a pair of Fulimator Mages and some of those sweet Crumble to Dust (I already expected those trons)
Vs. Ponzas I had nothing and was totally unprepared. I'm guessing life from the loam, but it seems so specific and narrow... Its not like having cards like Huntmaster,Finks and brutality on the SB that are good cards vs. Many decks... Any tips ? I'm guessing running 25 lands would be a first step?
Note: If I were to ramp up to 25 lands, should I go 5 manlands ? I'm currently running a 24 lands build with 3 RR's + 1 treetop.
Guys convince me about Kitchen Finks, I know it's a good card but it doesn't seem that promising. I mean we have it vs aggro , burn and Grind
Vs aggro 2 for 1 trade lifegain: For the same mana I can board wipe
Vs burn: Brutality is better, double green
Vs Jund/control: Gets Path, Better grind cards
You basically answered the question yourself. Yes against aggro you can just cast anger. Yes CB is better against burn and yes there are better grindy cards. But here is the deal: Its still really good for what it does in those matchups, and its a single card rather than 3 different cards. SB slots are precious in Modern, and therefore you need to take advantage of hugely flexible cards like Finks that are actually still good enough to run (as opposed to the most Charms for example).
Any advices on what kind of side-deck / configuration would be best to bring in a meta where a lot of people are playing PONZA / Land Loss type decks ?
I've just got back to playing at my local shop and I came to find that out of the 15 players last night, 3 were ponzas, 2 trons, 2 Burns, 2 humans. (The rest was mostly other midrange/controlly decks. Death Shadows. And a single ad nauseum and sword of the meek.)
Vs. Burn I'm bringing some collective brutalities, Kitchen finks, and Huntmaster (I'm running one main-deck and one side-deck and I'm loving it.)
Vs. Humans some Anger of the Gods and Huntmaster.
Vs. Tron I have brought a pair of Fulimator Mages and some of those sweet Crumble to Dust (I already expected those trons)
Vs. Ponzas I had nothing and was totally unprepared. I'm guessing life from the loam, but it seems so specific and narrow... Its not like having cards like Huntmaster,Finks and brutality on the SB that are good cards vs. Many decks... Any tips ? I'm guessing running 25 lands would be a first step?
Note: If I were to ramp up to 25 lands, should I go 5 manlands ? I'm currently running a 24 lands build with 3 RR's + 1 treetop.
So if I assume the basic 4 BBE in every deck now, you are running 24 lands, 4 Manlands and at least 5 four drops main? Absolutely go up to 25 land let alone for that reason.
As for Ponza, have 4 basic lands in your deck, play the 6 discard spells main and have quite a few one mana removals for their dorks. If you slow them down ealry on you can most likely stick a Tarmogoyf or LoTV and those cards can just win you the game. For me its about interacting early to defend yourself from the first wave of LD and disruption they have. If the in topdeck mode we should be able to win since they have some number of garbage topdecks in their deck. For the SB guide pls look at the Primer.
Thats great! In the beginning 25 lands felt floody to most people. 25 is certainly adding the consistancy we want for the higher curve. I am just toying around with 24 lands to see if I can find a configuration that is somewhat still consistant enough. Against aggro I really like 24. But against midrange and control I would like 25. But 25 lands overall is definitely the safest route at this point.
I've been having decent results with my hybrid approach of 24 lands+Nissa Vastwood Seer. 75% of the time I usually just pitch her to a mainboard Brutality, but that other 25% of the time where I need a path to 4 lands for Bloodbraid, or sometimes even a path to more Ooze activations she's been pretty good. I've only flipped her once in about 20 rounds though. There's probably an argument to be made for a Sakura Tribe Elder instead based on that.
Still, I think the theory of 24 lands+1 creature that gets a land is sound.
My 5 basic approach has also worked very well for me. My manabase is
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Twilight Mire
2 Raging Ravine
1 Treetop Village
1 Hissing Quagmire
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Mountain
It has no color issues, and is very pain free, I can definitely notice the shift in percentage points against aggressive decks. Not every game, but most I take no more than 2 damage from my mana. It's not unusual to have games with 0 damage.
Thats great! In the beginning 25 lands felt floody to most people. 25 is certainly adding the consistancy we want for the higher curve. I am just toying around with 24 lands to see if I can find a configuration that is somewhat still consistant enough. Against aggro I really like 24. But against midrange and control I would like 25. But 25 lands overall is definitely the safest route at this point.
I've been having decent results with my hybrid approach of 24 lands+Nissa Vastwood Seer. 75% of the time I usually just pitch her to a mainboard Brutality, but that other 25% of the time where I need a path to 4 lands for Bloodbraid, or sometimes even a path to more Ooze activations she's been pretty good. I've only flipped her once in about 20 rounds though. There's probably an argument to be made for a Sakura Tribe Elder instead based on that.
Still, I think the theory of 24 lands+1 creature that gets a land is sound.
My 5 basic approach has also worked very well for me. My manabase is
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Twilight Mire
2 Raging Ravine
1 Treetop Village
1 Hissing Quagmire
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Mountain
It has no color issues, and is very pain free, I can definitely notice the shift in percentage points against aggressive decks. Not every game, but most I take no more than 2 damage from my mana. It's not unusual to have games with 0 damage.
By your own argument, Traverse the Ulvenwald is probably a better card. Even then, it seems like just running more lands makes more sense.
If I were to cut a land in order to fit a landsearching spell I would also play Traverse. I think cards like Nissa or Sakura hurt our deck philosophy too much. Both are dead topdecks during that turn where they are topdecked. Sakura is just a chump blocker, Nissa can flip, but you would need another land for it later in the game, which is something I don't want to draw anyway. Traverse can at least be potentially a threat later as well. But given that delirium is just unreliable, I am also not a fan.
Flying Delver thank you for adding sideboard guide for GW Company and RG Eldrazi. My games have tremendously got better. Thank you again.
Take the RG Eldrazi guide with a grain of salt right now. I am not 100 % sure about that one yet.
I totally agree on RG Eldrazi. Right now i feel tarmogoyf is the best route but you can lose to games you're ahead with Eldrazi Obligator. Don't know if you should beat it with discard or creature removal.
I like waiting till i have 2 surgical extractions in hand against Living End. Faerie Macabre can be a blow out if you use it at the wrong time and they have one in hand. To me personally it feels like the safest route against them as most living end decks run usually 2 mainboard.
I think, if you wait for that, you will most likely be already dead at that point. What are the odds of finding the second Surgical before the Living End player going off? Not very good in comparison in my mind.
I like to doesn't always happen. I just get lucky with surgical extraction in jund.
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Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
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IOK is definitely in the top 5 of our best cards against Burn, so replacing it with CB won't increase your win% against it by much.
To add, Tracker is a fine card to run, if you like to do so. Its a powerful card that can win games on its own.
As for Grudges, many people here defend the opinion that you should not leave the house without 2 Grudges. Now, I think that rule is certainly fine to follow, but I personally would not see it anywhere near as being set in stone. I think about it more dynamicly. I think, since Jund as a deck is particularly capable of adjusting to different metas, that its very smart, if you recognize in a specific meta that artifact based decks are on the decline, to cut a singleton Grudge for something similar, that helps you in other more popular matchups. EE, like you mentioned, works perfectly fine for that reason. If you see Affinity and Lantern on the decline and maybe see an uptick in Bogles, its certainly right imo to replace one Grudge with EE. And I don't think, if you now still get paired against Affinity, that you horribly will loose the matchup due to that. EE can still kill any card from their deck and also kills etched champion. Its the small nuances and about the small % points of Card A vs. Card B that matter etc. Just be aware of the actual function of each card in your sideboard, not simply on the text on the card. Think multidimensional and about every aspect of the cards you are considering. Instead of asking "Is it justifiable to not run 2 Grudges in my list?" why not ask: "Is it justified to actually run 2 Grudges in my SB right now?"
Now, with this I don't want to say cut a Grudge and call it a day. I want to say that your question of whether to respect Affinity/Lanter more or less depends on your meta, your playstyle and your preference on which win% percentage you can more or less safely skimp on to increase other much more precious win% percentage points against other matchups.
Like, there are some Jund players having a harder time against Storm, despite it being a good matchup. But they just don't feel comfortable playing against the deck. Those people will certainly put more dedicated GY hate into their SB for example. Maybe others don't feel as bad against Big Mana and more or less win about half their games against it. In such a case maybe 2 Fulminators can be sufficient. I think those little personal "issues" are exactly the ones you need to exploit as much as possible. And I believe if you are very aware of that, you can squeeze the maximum and a good balance out of your 75 configuration. Thats what defines a good Jund pilot.
I like waiting till i have 2 surgical extractions in hand against Living End. Faerie Macabre can be a blow out if you use it at the wrong time and they have one in hand. To me personally it feels like the safest route against them as most living end decks run usually 2 mainboard.
@SiegeDino: I will probably try a 2-2 split of Damping Sphere/Fulminator. I'm honestly curious to see it's effect's on snapcaster decks as a whole (not grixis) as i get the feeling people will be SBing them in against UR/x and ramp decks a lot. I just see this will be one of those cards that follows the Surgical Extraction, Lost Legacy, Slaughter Games route.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
That seems like a really narrow sequence to setup a scenario that's still likely to be unfavorable.
I think, if you wait for that, you will most likely be already dead at that point. What are the odds of finding the second Surgical before the Living End player going off? Not very good in comparison in my mind.
Five fast lands with two of them being Blooming Marsh?? This didn't seem strange to you?
Thats great! In the beginning 25 lands felt floody to most people. 25 is certainly adding the consistancy we want for the higher curve. I am just toying around with 24 lands to see if I can find a configuration that is somewhat still consistant enough. Against aggro I really like 24. But against midrange and control I would like 25. But 25 lands overall is definitely the safest route at this point.
So only 1 KCommand in the 75 is fine for you? Even despite the popularity of Hollow One right now?
https://mtgdecks.net/Modern/jund-decklist-by-watanabe-kouga-737944
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Fatal Push
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
1 Collective Brutality
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Treetop Village
1 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
Yes, targeted discard is extremely important to beat that deck. However, since its draw dependant, discard might not be enough if they play Burning Inquiry on turn 1 on the play. That brings me to KCommand, generally its indeed weak, but often it feels almost like a necessary evil to stop early Hollow Ones preboard. If I get to kill Hollow one and also say a Phoenix, potentially also preventing it from returning the next turn, its not so bad. But of course otherwise the 2 dmg are unexciting and the discard mode is more or less useless. Don't know how relevant recurring is, but maybe its okay since we can bring back Goyfs postboard if they kill it with BGH. All in all it is just another out for their Hollow One intense openers.
I am wandering how a meta has to look like in order to make me registering such a list. BBE is just the best card in so many matchups. Can't be right to ever run less than 4.
Take the RG Eldrazi guide with a grain of salt right now. I am not 100 % sure about that one yet.
I've just got back to playing at my local shop and I came to find that out of the 15 players last night, 3 were ponzas, 2 trons, 2 Burns, 2 humans. (The rest was mostly other midrange/controlly decks. Death Shadows. And a single ad nauseum and sword of the meek.)
Vs. Burn I'm bringing some collective brutalities, Kitchen finks, and Huntmaster (I'm running one main-deck and one side-deck and I'm loving it.)
Vs. Humans some Anger of the Gods and Huntmaster.
Vs. Tron I have brought a pair of Fulimator Mages and some of those sweet Crumble to Dust (I already expected those trons)
Vs. Ponzas I had nothing and was totally unprepared. I'm guessing life from the loam, but it seems so specific and narrow... Its not like having cards like Huntmaster,Finks and brutality on the SB that are good cards vs. Many decks... Any tips ? I'm guessing running 25 lands would be a first step?
Note: If I were to ramp up to 25 lands, should I go 5 manlands ? I'm currently running a 24 lands build with 3 RR's + 1 treetop.
You basically answered the question yourself. Yes against aggro you can just cast anger. Yes CB is better against burn and yes there are better grindy cards. But here is the deal: Its still really good for what it does in those matchups, and its a single card rather than 3 different cards. SB slots are precious in Modern, and therefore you need to take advantage of hugely flexible cards like Finks that are actually still good enough to run (as opposed to the most Charms for example).
So if I assume the basic 4 BBE in every deck now, you are running 24 lands, 4 Manlands and at least 5 four drops main? Absolutely go up to 25 land let alone for that reason.
As for Ponza, have 4 basic lands in your deck, play the 6 discard spells main and have quite a few one mana removals for their dorks. If you slow them down ealry on you can most likely stick a Tarmogoyf or LoTV and those cards can just win you the game. For me its about interacting early to defend yourself from the first wave of LD and disruption they have. If the in topdeck mode we should be able to win since they have some number of garbage topdecks in their deck. For the SB guide pls look at the Primer.
I've been having decent results with my hybrid approach of 24 lands+Nissa Vastwood Seer. 75% of the time I usually just pitch her to a mainboard Brutality, but that other 25% of the time where I need a path to 4 lands for Bloodbraid, or sometimes even a path to more Ooze activations she's been pretty good. I've only flipped her once in about 20 rounds though. There's probably an argument to be made for a Sakura Tribe Elder instead based on that.
Still, I think the theory of 24 lands+1 creature that gets a land is sound.
My 5 basic approach has also worked very well for me. My manabase is
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Twilight Mire
2 Raging Ravine
1 Treetop Village
1 Hissing Quagmire
2 Swamp
2 Forest
1 Mountain
It has no color issues, and is very pain free, I can definitely notice the shift in percentage points against aggressive decks. Not every game, but most I take no more than 2 damage from my mana. It's not unusual to have games with 0 damage.
By your own argument, Traverse the Ulvenwald is probably a better card. Even then, it seems like just running more lands makes more sense.
I totally agree on RG Eldrazi. Right now i feel tarmogoyf is the best route but you can lose to games you're ahead with Eldrazi Obligator. Don't know if you should beat it with discard or creature removal.
I like to doesn't always happen. I just get lucky with surgical extraction in jund.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG