MTG Salvation

-What are your basics of choice (as in what sets) for this deck and why?
Zendikar full art, just like 'em.

-Which Terminate do y’all run?
ARB, I like the first printing in the black-bordered Modern frame for cards in general.

-Has anyone sprung for fancy Lightning Bolts?
Nah, this hobby is expensive enough as it is. M11 no-flavor-text for me.

-Does everyone run the FNM BBE’s? If not, is it because you prefer another set/art or you just can’t find them at the moment?
I prefer the original Shards of Alara printing (see response to Terminate above)

Which IoK do you run?
4x ROE... in Spanish (nobody expects them)

I had to resleeve my deck with new sleeves, and have to go through the process of uncurling some of them, since they can do that over time even with silica. Especially that BBE and Twilight Mire. It doesn't do that so much when sleeved.

As for the poll, I technically prefer the Argyle/Planechase art, but I own the Alara ones atm since I couldn’t get a hold of the Argyle ones; and I think the Alara art is a close second-best. The sky and background in this are really cool, but Argyle’s elf looks more intimidating and... “elfy”

Quote from Spsiegel1987 »

I had to resleeve my deck with new sleeves, and have to go through the process of uncurling some of them, since they can do that over time even with silica. Especially that BBE and Twilight Mire. It doesn't do that so much when sleeved.

What's your process for uncurling them?

Those are some beautiful piles of good cards. Some of those piles could probably use a little extra insurance coverage on them!

I’m surprised more people didn’t spring for the FNM version of BBE since it’s the original release of Argyle’s artwork AND it’s shiny. The Planechase release came out like two years later I think.

I got my FNM Promo BBE’s years ago and when Deathrite Shaman showed up and BBE got the boot, I moved my BBE’s to the top front four spots in my show-off binder (some people call them a trade binder and then go on to say that 2/3 of the stuff in there isn’t for trade) where she’s been until a few weeks ago. I had sold most of my Jund deck off to help put my wife through nursing school but always said that as soon as BBE got out of jail I’d immediately acquire the deck again and sleeve it up so my Argyle Elves had a home. And here we are. Needless to say I’m pretty attached to the FNM Promo BBE.

Also, I just got ahold of 4x German FBB “Blitzschlag”!!! Ich bin ******* stoked about it too! Thanks for making me aware these were a thing. The Betas were unattainable for me and the Full-Arts were just to shiny and new looking to match the rest of my deck. These FBB’s are gonna be perfect.

Quote from deaddrift »

-What are your basics of choice (as in what sets) for this deck and why?
Zendikar full art, just like 'em.

-Which Terminate do y’all run?
ARB, I like the first printing in the black-bordered Modern frame for cards in general.

-Has anyone sprung for fancy Lightning Bolts?
Nah, this hobby is expensive enough as it is. M11 no-flavor-text for me.

-Does everyone run the FNM BBE’s? If not, is it because you prefer another set/art or you just can’t find them at the moment?
I prefer the original Shards of Alara printing (see response to Terminate above)

Which IoK do you run?
4x ROE... in Spanish (nobody expects them)

Man I really hope you’re being serious about the Spanish Inquisition of Kozilek because that’s the flyest thing I’ve heard of in awhile. I did a quick search and couldn’t find any anywhere. Troll and Toad had a page for them @ $40 but there are none in stock.

I also want to find a French Huntmaster of the Fells because that dude looks super Canadian Rockies-esque, as well as a German Olivia Voldaren because I’m pretty sure Innistrad and its vampiric aristocrats were modeled in a Prussian likeness.

Quote from Piney_Tinecones »

Man I really hope you’re being serious about the Spanish Inquisition of Kozilek

Gritarás...

So I've been relentlessly testing for the last few days, after having taken suggestions from from various forum posts and players alike. Currently I feel like the power level of this deck is just borderline unfair. I feel strong in nearly every matchup, and think we have tools to deal with almost anything now, especially with BBE rounding out our curve perfectly. I believe my current main deck is near identical to a list that's been making the rounds in here, but this is what I'm currently running:



Oh, and I run Steve Argyle BBE's because the others either look like a leathery grandma or a grumpy hippy.

-What are your basics of choice (as in what sets) for this deck and why?
Swamp, Forest, Mountain all from Unhinged set. I originally wanted the unglued as i preferred them though, but couldn't find any locally. My fav foil mountain is actually from the shard block which is a grixis shard mountain slope with skulls covering it.

-Which Terminate do y’all run?
i run alara reborn one's, but im debating on buying the textless terminate as i really like the art despite my dislike of textless cards.

-Has anyone sprung for fancy Lightning Bolts?
I'm not a big person on textless so im simply enjoying my fire and lightning edition bolts

-Does everyone run the FNM BBE’s? If not, is it because you prefer another set/art or you just can’t find them at the moment?
I got planechase, but it's hard as i actually like the eternal master's edition a little more which is usually very odd as i prefer original art's usually.

Anyway was gonna ask whats up with the 4 bolts, 1 push, 1 decay, 1-2 Terminate, 0-1 Dreadbore, 2 K-command, 1-2 Maelstrom Pulse? Feels like our removal is becoming more stretched and less optimized everytime i look online nowadays. Is it as players were trying to accommodate BBE and make as many cascade live as possible? or are we just not sure where we want to be on removal currently as the meta is shifting? This honestly has been puzzling me for awhile.

Quote from Shodai »

I like the poll! What do people prefer out of the original 'Bob' Dark Confidant art vs the newer Skrillex one?

I currently have 3 RAV, 1 MM2013 one so I will probably trade the MM2013 for a 4th Rav.

Easily Ravnica. It is also the only version you are allowed to call Bob (for obvious reason), the other one is obviously Skrillex like you said.

On removal, as of now, I am pretty sure about those:

4 LoTV, 4 Bolts, 1 Push, 2 Terminate, 1 Pulse, 1 KCommand. I like having 16 removal spells in my deck, so I am currently adding 1 more Command, 1 Push and 1 Pulse. I could see addding a Decay instead of Pulse number 2. But so far I haven't missed it. Also could cut second Push for the Decay. But I like the 12 one drop configuration.

I am quite firm on zero Dreadbore. I don't think it adds much benefit in contrast for its sorcery speed downside. I do like the non regenerate clause of terminate more also, which can be helpful against Welding Jar from Affinity.

Quote from hellkite12 »

Quote from moondemon88 »

[b]

Anyway was gonna ask whats up with the 4 bolts, 1 push, 1 decay, 1-2 Terminate, 0-1 Dreadbore, 2 K-command, 1-2 Maelstrom Pulse? Feels like our removal is becoming more stretched and less optimized everytime i look online nowadays. Is it as players were trying to accommodate BBE and make as many cascade live as possible? or are we just not sure where we want to be on removal currently as the meta is shifting? This honestly has been puzzling me for awhile.

Why do you think it is less optimized?

To me it looks like what we did run for all of modern (influenced by bans, and printings).

Our Removal was always like this (leaving out kolaghans, since it is a value card with removal as option and hard to analyse):

• 4 Bolts until Push was printed, then it was 3 Push 2 Bolt, now it is back to more Bolt, but there is not a big difference in power level, the bolt your face option just became better again.
• 4 LotV: Just he best large creature removal there is in modern.
• 1-3 Terminate: Works together with Decay and Pulse, if there are more 4 Mana+ Creatures, we play more Terminate
• 1-3 Decay:Works with Terminate and Pulse, if there are a lot of 3 Mana or less permanents, Like Blood Moon, Search for Azz, Plating, Bridge, etc. that we need to kill we play more Decay
• 1-2 Maelstrom Pulse: Works with Terminate and Decay, Kills Evrything, We play more Pulse when both Termiante and Decay are needed and the format is slow, when there is a lot of tokens, or 4+ Non Creatures to deal with.
• 0-1 Dreadbore: The Hybrid of terminate and Pulse that some people try to play instead of a terminate when they are scared of a new (or unbanned) Planeswalker, stays in the deck for 1 Month before everyone is cutting it again. I Think it is the worst of both worlds, sorcery and does not kill everything, so it is not worth.

Most of the time Modern since the Decay print we ran exactly this removal, or name me a time that we did not (i cant remember when i did not).
The Balance of the spells is very improtenat to have enogh playabels in every matchup (max. 4-5 completly dead cards in my opinon, e.g. push and terminate against Lantern, since decay, bolt, and pulse can never be dead they are the saver includes).

It comes all down to your expected Meta wich spells to play, and since the unban people need to readjust since we are missing 2-3 Slots (25th Land, 2 BEEs) from before, if you want to keep 3 Ooze and 5 Liliana, as well as 6 Discard (wich i think is still the sweet spot, 7 was always to many and 5 just not enough) you need to cut removal.

Quote from FlyingDelver »

Quote from Shodai »

I like the poll! What do people prefer out of the original 'Bob' Dark Confidant art vs the newer Skrillex one?

I currently have 3 RAV, 1 MM2013 one so I will probably trade the MM2013 for a 4th Rav.

Easily Ravnica. It is also the only version you are allowed to call Bob (for obvious reason), the other one is obviously Skrillex like you said.

On removal, as of now, I am pretty sure about those:

4 LoTV, 4 Bolts, 1 Push, 2 Terminate, 1 Pulse, 1 KCommand. I like having 16 removal spells in my deck, so I am currently adding 1 more Command, 1 Push and 1 Pulse. I could see addding a Decay instead of Pulse number 2. But so far I haven't missed it. Also could cut second Push for the Decay. But I like the 12 one drop configuration.

I am quite firm on zero Dreadbore. I don't think it adds much benefit in contrast for its sorcery speed downside. I do like the non regenerate clause of terminate more also, which can be helpful against Welding Jar from Affinity.

Im gonna just engage both of you at once if you dont mind. The problems not like numbers on Lili PW split or use as removal or Scooze numbers or anything my only problem is honestly the numbers i posted that i have been seeing online for the most part for the things listed below.

4 bolts, 1 push, 1 decay, 1-2 Terminate, 0-1 Dreadbore, 2 K-command, 1-2 Maelstrom Pulse being somewhere in the generic realm of online removal from what i have seen for the last week or so. My main reasoning atm is what am i missing about the meta for people to come to this conclusion of removal.

Like i understand with BBE and Jace unbanned you want bolts more then push. The push is weaker cascade, etc usual stuff. Why are we still using the generic push though when both terminate, dreadbore, and abrupt decay are better? why use the abrupt decay when we increased the amount of maelstrom pulse? Both of you already stated my personal opinion on dreadbore so we can skip that. Did the 3rd k-command become the second maelstrom pulse? Why not more terminates to battle the big creatures?

I might also just be overthinking things and getting confused as i'm currently helping my friends prepare for a legacy and vintage tournament while also helping my friend get used to his modern deck he finally built.

hellkite pretty much said it. We don't want to have a clunky curve which hinders us from actually interacting in a efficient way. If you followed the discussion in this thread, then you will observe that we talked about this issue of shifting the deck towards a higher curve is not really what helps maintaining the strength of this deck. At the beginning we all were too much focused on better interaction with BBE, but as it seems, its not worth it if you sacrifice that early efficient interaction for it.

We are still a fair deck, and we need to be able to attack faster unfair strategies as well. For that reason we need efficient interaction from turn 1 on. And concerning creatures, Push is the obvious best interaction possible.

So at this point its about balancing syngergy with BBE and early interaction. We want to min/max both issues, and therefore such a removal suite is the result basically.

And also like hellkite said, no removal spell is never strictly better than the other (concerning the ones which we use, except for Dreadbore like already stated) all have different benefits and drawbacks. We want to keep drawbacks at minimum and benefits at maximum. Thats also a reason for that removal suite.

Thanks you both for the help. I think i just overestimate K-command since i have been playing it since release with snapcaster. You both actually helped me with the thing i was missing which was DS decks. That deck died off in my meta really quickly and no one picked it back up so i always forget about it for some reason. Sorry i had to ask bit embarrassing usually i figure it out, but i would rather figure out what i missing then just screw up.

I've got a question for you guys : what are your real feelings about BBE ?

Personally I find the card strong but we are no more in a proactive / reactive way to play our deck than we used to be.
I see so many streamers / players casting their BBE like : "Just turn the wheel and cross fingers to hit what we need" whereas we used to build our strategy and keep in hand needed cards for specific threats.

The fact that Jund is so popular right now piss me off too because I see soooo many bad or medium players trying to pilot our deck just because BBE was unbanned ...

I start to miss the era before unbanning when I played at a GP a T1 Raging Ravine then a T2 Dark Confidant, my opponent looked at me : "Oh ! Traditionnal Jund player still exist ?"

What are your thoughts about this statement ?


Gus

Quote from chaos021 »

Quote from Spsiegel1987 »

I had to resleeve my deck with new sleeves, and have to go through the process of uncurling some of them, since they can do that over time even with silica. Especially that BBE and Twilight Mire. It doesn't do that so much when sleeved.

What's your process for uncurling them?

I tried a few things.

I bought one of those gigantic silipackets and put my curled cards in a sealed tight container for a few weeks. It sucks the moisture out of them.

The problem I found with that is it'll bend the card backwards in an odd shape that can take a while to uncurl. I use it just a few hours to suck some moisture now



I took a risk to experiment on a way to uncurl cards by testing it on a cheap random foil:

I take a piece of paper, put a foil card face down, and have it hover over a stove at medium heat. You can literally see the card unbend and curl the opposite way. Double Sleeve it up quick and do that until you're done. Have your cards facing one another where it'll bend into one another. So, one card face up, one card face down, one card face up, etc...

Then you put it in a tight deck-box to the point you can barely squeeze another sleeved card in there (but don't force it, of course)

You'll have all those cards bending into one another to straighten it up in the process, too. Leave it there for a week---leaving it for less to get to your next FNM should be fine, too



It works pretty well. I saw some absurd methods on youtube, like ironing your cards and there was no way I was going to do something like that. There were some people who had luck leaving a card on a heater or whatever so it gave me the idea.

I've tried it on hundreds of cards.

It's only been unsuccessful on one card, and that wasn't on me. I received a foil Hazoret that came in curl. The card was bending inward from the heat, like---bad. I stuffed the card in a container with the giant silica and it still wasn't unbending. When I went to physically uncurl it I could tell the card wasn't in a good place, and I used enough force that it ripped in half.




My method probably won't save your card if it's severely curled, but if it's just a little curled, like in the picture of my unsleeved BBE or Twilight Mire, that method has worked. Test it on a cheap foil you don't care about if you're feeling nervous about it.

Quote from Gus07 »

I've got a question for you guys : what are your real feelings about BBE ?

Personally I find the card strong but we are no more in a proactive / reactive way to play our deck than we used to be.
I see so many streamers / players casting their BBE like : "Just turn the wheel and cross fingers to hit what we need" whereas we used to build our strategy and keep in hand needed cards for specific threats.

The fact that Jund is so popular right now piss me off too because I see soooo many bad or medium players trying to pilot our deck just because BBE was unbanned ...

I start to miss the era before unbanning when I played at a GP a T1 Raging Ravine then a T2 Dark Confidant, my opponent looked at me : "Oh ! Traditionnal Jund player still exist ?"

What are your thoughts about this statement ?


Gus

I'm not gonna lie, it's very hard to watch streamers and new players sometimes. I personally am very conservative about my elfs. I have a buddy that's back on Jund and has never played with the elf before in his life. He didn't understand why I was winning all the matches when playtesting, and it came down to how I played my BBE's vs himself.

I'm not a fan of the phrase "spinning the wheel". When playing BBE I try and set the game up to a point where when I play her - no bad card could come off the top. Unless the situation is critical, I'll never run an elf out without 100% confidence.

That being said, deck construction takes a little bit of a turn when trying to play the elf like that. To make this sort of play style optimal; in my mainboard I'm on no Fatal Push, Last Hope, 2 Scavenging Ooze , and 5 (approaching 6) man lands.

So it takes a bit of engineering but I've found it personally rewarding play traditionally is playing safe, playing patient, and knowing your windows of opportunity.

Thoughts on BBE:

I have more and more turned my deck back into the way it looked prior to the BBE unbannings. I see it more and more as a way better Hazoret, of which I can maindeck 4 copies.

The comparison to Hazoret is quite straight forward: It's a hasty 4 drop that allows me to turn the corner way faster than what would otherwise be possible. Also it brings along additional value. The fact that BBE dies easier is not so important - if it dies to a removal spell it will still, in most matchups, have dealt 3 damage and brought another card for me as advantage.

Now, playing 4 4-drops does change the deck a bit - but I've stopped trying to build so much around BBE. Prior to BBE unban I played 0 K Commands main, right now I'm on 1. Other than that, I've shaved a couple of removal spells and gone from 3 to 4 bolts.

Also there's still the point of mana curve and number of manlands to think about. I think the idea of trying to play more one drops to support double spelling early is good. I also liked the points made by Jadine to try and polarize the curve towards less 2 drops and more 1 and 3 drops. I think we still haven't seen the last of what is going to happen with our mana curve - be it something like the very low curve I'm currently running or a more polarized curve that Jadine is running, or something completely different.

Playing BBE also really encourages us not to play other 4 drops (maindeck or board), as playing a similar 3 drop or below will increase our chances of seeing that spell during the game by a lot. This doesn't mean it is wrong, only that you need to really consider if there's a similar, but slightly worse, 3 drop you could be playing instead.

I think by far and large you can get quite far to not over do it on BBE. It is a great card, definitely a 4-drop for me - but it doesn't really change my initial playstyle with the deck. It does however allow me to be way more aggressive much sooner in the matchup. Also the card has probably taken ~10 minutes off of my average round time. Quite a bit of that is due to being able to turn the corner much quicker. It is rarely because I loose from a mana screwed or flooded hand, at least no more than it was before.

Obviously there's more people prepared for Jund now when you play against them - but that's just how it is once our deck is better positioned in the meta.

Quote from Gus07 »

I've got a question for you guys : what are your real feelings about BBE ?

Personally I find the card strong but we are no more in a proactive / reactive way to play our deck than we used to be.
I see so many streamers / players casting their BBE like : "Just turn the wheel and cross fingers to hit what we need" whereas we used to build our strategy and keep in hand needed cards for specific threats.

The fact that Jund is so popular right now piss me off too because I see soooo many bad or medium players trying to pilot our deck just because BBE was unbanned ...

I start to miss the era before unbanning when I played at a GP a T1 Raging Ravine then a T2 Dark Confidant, my opponent looked at me : "Oh ! Traditionnal Jund player still exist ?"

What are your thoughts about this statement ?


Gus

Truthfully, it's kind of a snobby attitude. Feeling like a snowflake because we continued to play a bad deck when Grixis/Traverse Shadow is a bad attitude. This deck isn't some VIP club, even though the deck's price is absurd. I did trash this deck last year, but I still played it. Nearly everything I said about Jund, Junk and Shadow was completely right in 2016. Luckily one guy doesn't frequent the Jund thread anymore, but one idiot laughed at me when I said Jund was basically dead and he laughed at me when Jund had a 5-0 on MTGO a week later. Everyone was excited about fatal push except me.

Jund is definitely good again. Less than 4x BBE is just wrong, man. Sometimes we do have to spin the wheel, especially if we have nothing better in our hand. The deck is definitely more proactive, that 3/2 haste has mattered.

I don't care if bad players pilot the deck, I care when bad players go on here or the Jund Facebook group and give extremely bad and misinformed advice. The Facebook page is a mess, but it was useful when Jund was struggling.




Still no clue what the removal suite should look like...

I do agree with

25 Lands. I also would prefer 6 discard.

If we only play 2x Scooze we should at minimum play 3x graveyard hate in the sideboard.

I'm still not sure how to feel about the 2nd pulse. I also don't know how to feel about only playing 1x Terminate. Dreadbore is trash and we don't need it, it doesn't belong in Jund.


I still haven't tested out Herrerra's winning list from the classic. I made it on mtgo except the Fink is a 4th BBE. I tried the Goblin Rabblemaster, and even though I was winning with the deck there were times I felt Rabblemaster was not the best.


I wish I could test both decks all day, but I have to finish my paper on treatment methods for the mentally ill and then read and write more about trauma

Quote from Spsiegel1987 »

I wish I could test both decks all day, but I have to finish my paper on treatment methods for the mentally ill and then read and write more about trauma

Gah. In the same boat with my school work. I feel that, my dude. I would be out playing Jund allllll week if I could!

Quote from Spsiegel1987 »

Quote from Gus07 »

I've got a question for you guys : what are your real feelings about BBE ?

Personally I find the card strong but we are no more in a proactive / reactive way to play our deck than we used to be.
I see so many streamers / players casting their BBE like : "Just turn the wheel and cross fingers to hit what we need" whereas we used to build our strategy and keep in hand needed cards for specific threats.

The fact that Jund is so popular right now piss me off too because I see soooo many bad or medium players trying to pilot our deck just because BBE was unbanned ...

I start to miss the era before unbanning when I played at a GP a T1 Raging Ravine then a T2 Dark Confidant, my opponent looked at me : "Oh ! Traditionnal Jund player still exist ?"

What are your thoughts about this statement ?


Gus

Truthfully, it's kind of a snobby attitude. Feeling like a snowflake because we continued to play a bad deck when Grixis/Traverse Shadow is a bad attitude. This deck isn't some VIP club, even though the deck's price is absurd. I did trash this deck last year, but I still played it. Nearly everything I said about Jund, Junk and Shadow was completely right in 2016. Luckily one guy doesn't frequent the Jund thread anymore, but one idiot laughed at me when I said Jund was basically dead and he laughed at me when Jund had a 5-0 on MTGO a week later. Everyone was excited about fatal push except me.

Jund is definitely good again. Less than 4x BBE is just wrong, man. Sometimes we do have to spin the wheel, especially if we have nothing better in our hand. The deck is definitely more proactive, that 3/2 haste has mattered.

I don't care if bad players pilot the deck, I care when bad players go on here or the Jund Facebook group and give extremely bad and misinformed advice. The Facebook page is a mess, but it was useful when Jund was struggling.




Still no clue what the removal suite should look like...

I do agree with

25 Lands. I also would prefer 6 discard.

If we only play 2x Scooze we should at minimum play 3x graveyard hate in the sideboard.

I'm still not sure how to feel about the 2nd pulse. I also don't know how to feel about only playing 1x Terminate. Dreadbore is trash and we don't need it, it doesn't belong in Jund.


I still haven't tested out Herrerra's winning list from the classic. I made it on mtgo except the Fink is a 4th BBE. I tried the Goblin Rabblemaster, and even though I was winning with the deck there were times I felt Rabblemaster was not the best.


I wish I could test both decks all day, but I have to finish my paper on treatment methods for the mentally ill and then read and write more about trauma

It’s not a snobby attitude, our deck is known to reward players who know all the different matches-up and strategies and the difference between a good and a bad Jund pilot was easy to note.

And I have more and more difficulties to identify this point when I play in tournament and see other players or watch streamers ...


Gus